Paul Tracy sucks the big one

Sorry I just had to get that off my chest. First he squeezes him on the main straight, then he takes him out in turn 1!!!! I probably would not have been able to keep my cool if I were a driver and Paul Tracy did that to me. Screw Paul Tracy and the horse he rode in on. I hope Dallenbach suspends him again. And Paul, if you are reading this: YOU SUCK!!!! OK back to GPL :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Heh - I agree. Rob Swindells 3rd equal in Goldline Bearing FFord Championship (18 Points); 9 points behind Championship Leader (as of round 4 of 6) "If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than any time before." ~Martin Brundle

DITTO!! Although I don't think he sucks, just WAY too aggressive at times he shouldn't be. -- Sean Higgins "HigPup" "Hollywood" for R6 "Hollywood__NWO" for ZONE http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/hsts2/ HSTS, Powered by ATI Rage 128 http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/ http://www.colormation.com Colormation (sponsor of H.O. Motorsports) http://www.atitech.ca ATI Technologies >Sorry I just had to get that off my chest. First he squeezes him >on the main straight, then he takes him out in turn 1!!!! I probably >would not have been able to keep my cool if I were a driver and >Paul Tracy did that to me. >Screw Paul Tracy and the horse he rode in on. I hope Dallenbach >suspends him again. And Paul, if you are reading this: >YOU SUCK!!!! >OK back to GPL :-) >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>take it to rec.autos.sport.indy please. Why would we go there? That's for INDY cars not CART!! I could see if someone was blabbering about the IRL, but we were discussing a real racing series. ;-) -- Sean Higgins "HigPup" "Hollywood" for R6 "Hollywood__NWO" for ZONE http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/hsts2/ HSTS, Powered by ATI Rage 128 http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/ http://www.colormation.com Colormation (sponsor of H.O. Motorsports) http://www.atitech.ca ATI Technologies>

take it to rec.autos.sport.indy please.

I kinda liked it -- my two least favorite drivers taken out in one fell swoop. Unfortunately, I cannot crow too loudly since my boy in the Player's car was already done by that point in time....... oh well.....

On Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:50:54 -0500, "Greg Cisko" I fired up ICR2 just to put that idiot in the wall and extract revenge for Andretti.

Michael got it right on that comment over his radio after the wreck. Tracy thinks that everybody's supposed to just get out of his way while he drives like a total idiot.

And why not? Everybody got out of Zanardi's way LAST year... why not Tracey this year? Oh and just to stir the pot. How many tires has Mikey cut over the years with his front wing?? (not that he's done that lately mind you!) btw...how did JR do? Haven't watched the tape yet...hehe dave henrie

Not to fan the flames (but what the heck :)... Tracy was quoted, after Penske signed de Ferran and Moore as saying "oh, so you've hired two more guys who's careers you're going to ruin" (source: Autoweek). Can you *believe* that? After Penske stuck with him for so long, took him back after the year at Newman-Haas... Oh so many broken chassis and lost races, and it's *Penske* who's responsible for ruining some guy's careers... Sheesh! Just when I thought there was some hope for Tracy rehabilitating himself, the way things were going this season. "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

Different is that Andretti will admit to being an aggressive driver and Tracy won't. However, I personally don't feel that running into the back of someone either by misjudging their speed/braking or just being a bit too aggressive, is in the same boat as what Tracy did yesterday. That was almost dileberate. Now, granted, some cooler heads that Michael's may have taken the swerving on the front stretch as a warning Paul was about to do something stupid and backed off and come at him another time, so in a sense part of the blame was Michael's for being aggressive. But only a little bit because Michael clearly had the inside position and Paul just dove into him instead of staying his outside line (they could have both made it through the turn fine, it'd been done previously in the race) and/or juist simply let Michael go buy, tuck behind him and take him on the way out of the corner. And remember, Paul doesn't even have INTERNET WARP to blame. ;) If you are talking about Al Junior, then he was basically at the bottom of the pack until his engine let go. Pretty cool too though in person when he billowed the smoke down the front stretch. :)

Mike summed up Tracy any one very easy word "***". I don't think CART will do anything to Tracy, even though Parker Johnstone agreed Paul Tracy was in the wrong. Think about more people are going to tune in for the next race just to see who Tracy is going to take out next. Although I do agree with Mike that if Tracy keeps it up he is going to kill someone. -- Jeff Murchison JR Screamers League Administrator www.speakeasy.org/~jmurch/

On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:53 -0400, "Jeff Murchison JR"

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>Mike summed up Tracy any one very easy word "***". >I don't think CART will do anything to Tracy, even though Parker Johnstone >agreed Paul Tracy was in the wrong. Think about more people are going to >tune in for the next race just to see who Tracy is going to take out next. >Although I do agree with Mike that if Tracy keeps it up he is going to kill >someone.

Bah. It was a racing incident. Back out unless you're at least halfway alongside the guy, which Andretti wasn't. His front tire hit Paul's rear. -Scott Johnson

>Bah. It was a racing incident. Back out unless you're at least halfway >alongside the guy, which Andretti wasn't. His front tire hit Paul's >rear. Sure, if you're on a road course taking a conventional corner. This is an oval. Perhaps you missed Franchitti and Montoya just a second earlier going through the same corner side by side. There were a lot of side-by-side runs through the corner. The room was there. The outside guy just needed to hold the outside line and the inside guy needed to not move up. Montoya stayed wide to leave racing room for Franchitti - a demonstration of how to race side-by-side on an oval. Tracy pinched off Michael and ran him out of racing room. Your comments about the corner are inapplicable on an oval that allows side-by-side racing through a turn. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

>Bah. It was a racing incident. Back out unless you're at least halfway >alongside the guy, which Andretti wasn't. His front tire hit Paul's >rear. The exact positions of the cars when contact occurs rarely tells the whole story. Watch the replay. They were dead even going into the corner (despite Tracy blocking on the straight.) Andretti was behind by the point of contact because he was braking hard trying to avoid the AH swooping down on him. jw -- Electrical and Computer Engineering Oklahoma State University

Hey Randy you need to update your signature with the correct link to your web site :) -- Jeff Murchison JR Screamers League Administrator www.speakeasy.org/~jmurch/ > >Bah. It was a racing incident. Back out unless you're at least halfway > >alongside the guy, which Andretti wasn't. His front tire hit Paul's > >rear. > Sure, if you're on a road course taking a conventional corner. This > is an oval. Perhaps you missed Franchitti and Montoya just a second > earlier going through the same corner side by side. There were a lot > of side-by-side runs through the corner. The room was there. The > outside guy just needed to hold the outside line and the inside guy > needed to not move up. Montoya stayed wide to leave racing room for > Franchitti - a demonstration of how to race side-by-side on an oval. > Tracy pinched off Michael and ran him out of racing room. > Your comments about the corner are inapplicable on an oval that allows > side-by-side racing through a turn. > Randy > Randy Magruder > [link lost in import]

> On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:53 -0400, "Jeff Murchison JR" > Bah. It was a racing incident. Back out unless you're at least halfway > alongside the guy, which Andretti wasn't. His front tire hit Paul's > rear. Yeah. Once Paul had pinched Michael down off the banking, and Michael realized "Holy Crap! He's gonna take me out!", he tried to back off, causing him to be less than halfway alongside. Prior to that he was almost completely wheel-to-wheel. Not a very smart move on Paul's part. He really makes it difficult for his fans (hand partially, sheepishly raised) to remain fans. Randy Speaking completely for myself.

Yeah I have 3 sigs in Agent and the wrong one kept cropping up. Hopefully it's squashed now :) Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

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> On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:53 -0400, "Jeff Murchison JR" > Bah. It was a racing incident. Back out unless you're at least halfway > alongside the guy, which Andretti wasn't. His front tire hit Paul's > rear. > -Scott Johnson

Bullshit! Tracy chopped him. The *** even admitted that he knew Andretti was there. The only logical conclusion to be drawn is that he purposefully took both of them out. Can you imagine Bobby Rahal pulling such a stunt? No wonder racing online is so problematic when we have people running around thinking these sort of "***" manuvers are racing incidents. Unbelieveable. Rick Boyd

I would think you need both ability and brains to drive well. Tracy has demonstrated his ability, but he doesn't appear to be much of a "thinking driver". He does well when he has lots of room and not many delicate situations. When it comes to tactics he's a bull in china shop. He's screwed up too many times to just be unlucky. JMHO. Zog

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> Sorry I just had to get that off my chest. First he squeezes him > on the main straight, then he takes him out in turn 1!!!! I probably > would not have been able to keep my cool if I were a driver and > Paul Tracy did that to me. >***Paul Tracy and the horse he rode in on. I hope Dallenbach > suspends him again. And Paul, if you are reading this: > YOU SUCK!!!! > OK back to GPL :-) > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. > cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Paul tried to say he had no choice that there was only one way through the turn. Can you say bull shit? I loved what Mike said when ask what step he would take next in talking to Tracy. "It's like talking to a wall" Hmm, I know a couple of guys on VROC that act the same way and talking to them gets the same reaction ;-) Only on VROC I don't have to worry about losing my life when they do that same dumb crap. -- Jeff Murchison JR Screamers League Administrator www.speakeasy.org/~jmurch/ > > On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:53 -0400, "Jeff Murchison JR" > > Bah. It was a racing incident. Back out unless you're at least halfway > > alongside the guy, which Andretti wasn't. His front tire hit Paul's > > rear. > > -Scott Johnson > Bullshit! Tracy chopped him. The *** even admitted that he knew > Andretti was there. The only logical conclusion to be drawn is that he > purposefully took both of them out. Can you imagine Bobby Rahal pulling > such a stunt? No wonder racing online is so problematic when we have people > running around thinking these sort of "***" manuvers are racing > incidents. Unbelieveable. > Rick Boyd

> >Bah. It was a racing incident. Back out unless you're at least halfway > >alongside the guy, which Andretti wasn't. His front tire hit Paul's > >rear. > Sure, if you're on a road course taking a conventional corner. This > is an oval. Perhaps you missed Franchitti and Montoya just a second > earlier going through the same corner side by side. There were a lot > of side-by-side runs through the corner. The room was there. The > outside guy just needed to hold the outside line and the inside guy > needed to not move up. Montoya stayed wide to leave racing room for > Franchitti - a demonstration of how to race side-by-side on an oval. > Tracy pinched off Michael and ran him out of racing room. Side by side going in, single file coming out. Montoya gave in and backed off midway in the corner, if he hadn't you would've had four cars in the wall, actually it almost happened. The fact it didn't is a tribute to the fine driving skills of the two youngsters and cooler heads prevailing. You also should mention that Franchitti was the one overtaking and he did it on the outside. In Michael vs. Paul, the former was passing and he tried to do it on the inside. Tracy closed the door but Andretti had his nose there. Tracy could've tried to make the corner anyway, on the outside, off the racing line, hoping Andretti would eventually back-off but given the history of the man beside him he knew he wasn't going to give in and he also knew there was no way he was going to make it all around on the outside, so it was either going to be Michael or the wall coming out. It was Michael... and the wall. Whose fault? Andretti caused it, Tracy provoked it... not without provocation. There you go. Two of a kind really. Sorry but look again, Chicago did not allow side-by-side all the way around. Alain D

> Paul tried to say he had no choice that there was only one way through the > turn. Can you say bull shit? I loved what Mike said when ask what step he > would take next in talking to Tracy. "It's like talking to a wall" Yeah, Michael knows a thing or two about talking to a wall... Alain D

Doh! Someone help me kill it!

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>Yeah I have 3 sigs in Agent and the wrong one kept cropping up. >Hopefully it's squashed now :) >>Hey Randy you need to update your signature with the correct link to your >>web site :) >Randy Magruder >http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

>Sorry but look again, Chicago did not allow side-by-side all the way >around. May I again ask you to check the video of the incident on ESPN.com and please notice just how far through the turn Franchitti and Montoya were side by side. The video vindicates my call on this one. Take a look for yourself. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

>> needed to not move up. Montoya stayed wide to leave racing room >for Franchitti - a demonstration of how to race side-by-side on an >oval. Tracy pinched off Michael and ran him out of racing room. You replied: I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Go to www.espn.com and click on the link to the story and you will find video of the incident. First you'll see Franchitti diving INSIDE of Montoya and the two succesfully going two wide through the corner, and then you'll see 'the incident'. If you study this AVI a little more carefully, please note that Montoya (outside) and Franchitti (inside) STAYED Side by side far longer than Michael and Paul did. They were side by side all the way. Stop the slider at 6 seconds into the 14 second clip. Montoya and Franchitti are still side by side wheel to wheel and at the bottom of the screen you can see the beginnings of Michael's and Paul's car sliding up towards the wall. So no, I'm sorry, but the video does NOT support your point of view. You are wrong on both counts. Franchitti was overtaking on the INSIDE, and Montoya gave him room underneath significantly farther around the corner than Paul did with Michael. I'm glad ESPN has the video footage there for all to see. Enjoy. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Okay he chopped him, but Little Al did the same ting to Emmo years back at Indy, tho it took Al out and now Emmo. Mario did almost the very same thing to Danny Sullivan at Indy. Mario did it with class tho got Danny to spin and never had to touch him. In the post race interview with Mario he admitted that he was pushing Danny down lower hoping he would spin. Since Mario got beat he said this if he had won he would have never mentioned it. Tracy shoud have given Micheal room. Micheal also should not have trusted Tracy there and made sure he was low enough to hold position. Remmeber there are guys who you can race against and guy who will take you out, its the same online and for real. I was just bummed since I get home turn the TV on to hear Mike say what a bunch of shit and to see Mario taking off the headset off and put it away. I often also wonder with all the bad luck Andretti has how does he stay in top five in points. I was just a bummed as everyone else that likes Mike too. Dave

> >> needed to not move up. Montoya stayed wide to leave racing room > >for Franchitti - a demonstration of how to race side-by-side on an > >oval. Tracy pinched off Michael and ran him out of racing room. > I replied: > >Side by side going in, single file coming out. Montoya gave in and > >backed off midway in the corner, if he hadn't you would've had four > >cars in the wall, actually it almost happened. The fact it didn't is > >a tribute to the fine driving skills of the two youngsters and > >cooler heads prevailing. You also should mention that Franchitti was > >the one overtaking and he did it on the outside. Then you said: And I sheepishly admit: You are absolutely correct on all counts, and I will immediately eat my racing helmet as promised... I guess if Montoya could do it, then Tracy could've done it... or could he? This kid Montoya is clearly in a class of his own. So all that's left to decide now is whether Tracy really is whatever it is that Andretti called him... That's okay, don't bother answering this ;o) Alain D

Then again, if I had all the built-in body padding that Tracy has I wouldn't be afraid of getting in an accident either :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 "Keyboard error or no keyboard attached. Press F1 for help"

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>And I sheepishly admit: >You are absolutely correct on all counts, and I will immediately eat >my racing helmet as promised... >I guess if Montoya could do it, then Tracy could've done it... or >could he? This kid Montoya is clearly in a class of his own. >So all that's left to decide now is whether Tracy really is whatever >it is that Andretti called him... >That's okay, don't bother answering this ;o) >Alain D

I will respond by saying you have a lot of class. Some people will never admit when they are in error. I was a little unsure of my memory until I found that video, so certainly it can happen. Lord knows people were low and high on each other all day. It's quite easy to get confused unless you taped it and analyzed it. I just got lucky in that my memory was right AND there was video to prove it. Again, kudos for being classy. Cheers, Randy

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>> On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:53 -0400, "Jeff Murchison JR" >> Bah. It was a racing incident. Back out unless you're at least halfway >> alongside the guy, which Andretti wasn't. His front tire hit Paul's >> rear. >> -Scott Johnson >Bullshit! Tracy chopped him. The *** even admitted that he knew >Andretti was there. The only logical conclusion to be drawn is that he >purposefully took both of them out. Can you imagine Bobby Rahal pulling >such a stunt? No wonder racing online is so problematic when we have people >running around thinking these sort of "***" manuvers are racing >incidents. Unbelieveable.

Mikey should have realized who he was trying to pass. Not a smart place and time to be passing Paul like that. Until Mikey cleans it up, this old fart will never win another CART championship!

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>>Sorry but look again, Chicago did not allow side-by-side all the way >>around. >May I again ask you to check the video of the incident on ESPN.com and >please notice just how far through the turn Franchitti and Montoya >were side by side. The video vindicates my call on this one. Take a >look for yourself.

Yeah that 1"x1" video certainly does it justice! :> Can't even tell what colours the cars are!

Try the AVI instead of the Real Video feed. I can clearly see what color each car is. Zoom x2 if you have a hard time with it.

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>>>Sorry but look again, Chicago did not allow side-by-side all the way >>>around. >>May I again ask you to check the video of the incident on ESPN.com and >>please notice just how far through the turn Franchitti and Montoya >>were side by side. The video vindicates my call on this one. Take a >>look for yourself. >Yeah that 1"x1" video certainly does it justice! :> >Can't even tell what colours the cars are!

On 23 Aug 1999 20:58:36 GMT, "DAVID " >Okay he chopped him, but Little Al did the same ting to Emmo years back at >Indy, tho it took Al out and now Emmo. Ummm, there's a *slight* difference between 3 or so laps to go at the Indy 500 and 100 or so to go at the Chicago 225. :) So he was pinching him, not making contact. Giving him enough room to race, but just *barely* enough. Again, slight difference, no? He may be fourth (and Tracy third), but Tracy's swift move singlehandedly took *both* of them out of the championship race (about 50 points back with 5 races to go -- it's either Juan or Dario from here on). :( OK, we can agree on that. :) "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

I agree. Only Senna could get away with that stuff. But then again Senna was the best, tracy just blows. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

I think that "swerving" stuff is considered blocking and illegal. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

No, Paul's rear tire hit Andretti's front. Period. > On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:53 -0400, "Jeff Murchison JR" > >Mike summed up Tracy any one very easy word "***". > >I don't think CART will do anything to Tracy, even though Parker Johnstone > >agreed Paul Tracy was in the wrong. Think about more people are going to > >tune in for the next race just to see who Tracy is going to take out next. > >Although I do agree with Mike that if Tracy keeps it up he is going to kill

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> >someone. > Bah. It was a racing incident. Back out unless you're at least halfway > alongside the guy, which Andretti wasn't. His front tire hit Paul's > rear. > -Scott Johnson

Thats the largest piece of ***I've ever seen. Andretti went for the pass, period. COuld he have backed out? Maybe, but Paul probably STILl would have tagged him. On the other hand, Paul provoked it and was the cause of the accident as he CLEARLY in any replay cam down sharply into the lower racing line. Given the situation and the fact that Paul had to come sharply down to get into the racing line, Paul knew Andretti was there and Tracy should have backed off.

Not a smar place to pass? BS, that was the BEST place to pass was under braking. And Paul is obviously hard to pass because I doubt many trust him to keep his line. Mikey cleans it up? Yeah, ok. More like Paul needs to clean his act up or just leave CART and go drive for IRL (sorry John B :)

You tell'm CHRIS!!! -- Sean Higgins "HigPup" "Hollywood" for R6 "Hollywood__NWO" for ZONE http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/hsts2/ HSTS, Powered by ATI Rage 128 http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/ http://www.colormation.com Colormation (sponsor of H.O. Motorsports) http://www.atitech.ca ATI Technologies

Oh man.... this is getting dense pretty fast. You don't move down on someone you believe to be alongside until you can either tell he is behind you or your spotter tells you he is. End of story. The speeds in CART are such one cannot allow this kind of behaviour to take place. I've just visited a Historic Grand Prix weekend at Zolder where the only yellow flags (and a Safety Car situation) were caused by mechanical failures. Obviously the stakes aren't as high and the racing budgets / spares availability are such that having an accident is't an option. Nevertheless the racing was pretty intense, with some drivers not giving an inch either way, but still respecting eachoter. It is my opinion one shouldn't take extra liberties with one's fellow racers just becasue there's real money at stake or you can afford to wreck a chassis. Jan. ------ ><snip>

An ominous sign (and an indication) of the times we live in that you have to point that out. To me it shows the lack of respect of one's private persona by the employer. Jan. ------

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>> On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:53 -0400, "Jeff Murchison JR" >> Bah. It was a racing incident. Back out unless you're at least halfway >> alongside the guy, which Andretti wasn't. His front tire hit Paul's >> rear. >> -Scott Johnson >Bullshit! Tracy chopped him. The *** even admitted that he knew >Andretti was there. The only logical conclusion to be drawn is that he >purposefully took both of them out. Can you imagine Bobby Rahal pulling >such a stunt? No wonder racing online is so problematic when we have people >running around thinking these sort of "***" manuvers are racing >incidents. Unbelieveable. >Rick Boyd

Tracy didn't 'chop' him , they just had _very_ different lines through the corners. Tracy was braking early and going for as late an apex as possible, whereas Andretti was braking late, turning in early, and riding the brakes all the way down to the apex. If Andretti was really faster than Tracy, he would have been alongside him when they hit-he tried a desperate manuver down the inside. -Scott Johnson

I remember a couple years back at one of the road courses on a long high speed straight, Al Unser Jr. was trying to pass Micheal Andretti when Andretti moved over in front of Unser at the last second and took then both out, and that was in the middle of a straight with no reason to be changing lines. Andretti admitted fault saying that he didn't see Unser coming, but I don't remember Micheal calling HIMSELF an ***. Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

Well at least he admitted to it, Paul just seemed to say that it was not his fault at all. Had he said he messed up and may have been to aggresive, I don't think everyone would be so pissed at him. -- Jeff Murchison JR Screamers League Administrator www.speakeasy.org/~jmurch/

1) Andretti admitted fault 2) Said he didn't see Little Al 3) No one here has tried to coronate Michael to, "Prince of Racing Ettiquete." Rick Boyd

Someone...anywhere!!!!!...tried to claim Paul Tracey was polite or timid or interested in etiquette????? Who, when, where...we need to know! Marc.

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> > I remember a couple years back at one of the road courses on a long high > > speed straight, Al Unser Jr. was trying to pass Micheal Andretti when > > Andretti moved over in front of Unser at the last second and took then > both > > out, and that was in the middle of a straight with no reason to be > > changing lines. Andretti admitted fault saying that he didn't see Unser > > coming, but I don't remember Micheal calling HIMSELF an ***. > > Don Scurlock > > Vancouver,B.C. > 1) Andretti admitted fault > 2) Said he didn't see Little Al > 3) No one here has tried to coronate Michael to, "Prince of Racing > Ettiquete." > Rick Boyd

andretti wasn't alongside tracy when they hit because andretti was *** the brakes trying to avoid hitting tracy..

: Or missed Franchitti cutting down the corner exactly as Tracey did a little : while later....except the follower backed out in time unlike Andretti. The : commentators noted this (Franchitti doing the same thing and the follower : not doing what Andretti did--I think it may have been Montoya, too, but : can't be bothered to check the tape...). Are you talking about when Vasser tried to pass Franchitti? My friend asked me the same question when I gave him my opinion on the Tracy-Andretti incident. It just so happens that night I re-watched the race. They were totally different. Vasser dove underneath Franchitti at the last moment hoping to outbrake him. Probably had a little bit of a run as well, but he didn't begin to make the pass until they got to the braking zone, or close to it. Vasser realized he couldn't pull it off and/or that Franchitti wasn't going to give him room, and backed off. This is a lot different than what Andretti did. He was alongside Tracy nearly the entire distance of the backstraight. He wasn't making a last minute attempt to pass into the corner, but attempting to complete a pass he had not yet completed. Plus, Tracy pushing him to the grass caused Andretti to enter the turn at a completely different angle probably negating the possibility of being able to back off enough to avoid Tracy's car when Paul came down. When a driver makes an attempt to pass in a braking zone, he always leaves an escape route. But, when a driver enters a turn side by side, or close to it, that escape route is very small. And sometimes when you realize you need the escape route, it is too late -- and then it appears you hit the other guy because you still tried desperately to back off and your front hits his rear. And then you really feel like a jerk, because you realized you never should have backed off in the first place and just accept the side by side smack that would have happened instead and would not have placed blame on you. Rus'L --- NOTE -- Remove ekfido. --- Russell Jaslow | http://www.DeepThrottle.com/ |My employer Spec Racer Ford #33| http://www.DeepThrottle.com/Fun/ |to do with Finger Lakes Region| http://www.DeepThrottle.com/History/ |my drivel.

*** brakes trying to slow down to make corner.

> I remember a couple years back at one of the road courses on a long high > speed straight, Al Unser Jr. was trying to pass Micheal Andretti when > Andretti moved over in front of Unser at the last second and took then both > out, and that was in the middle of a straight with no reason to be > changing lines. Andretti admitted fault saying that he didn't see Unser > coming, but I don't remember Micheal calling HIMSELF an ***. That's because Tracy saw Andretti. Tracy dualed Andretti all the way down the back stretch and into the corner. Tracy said he knew Andretti was there.

On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 06:40:51 GMT, Roger Thompson

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>> I remember a couple years back at one of the road courses on a long high >> speed straight, Al Unser Jr. was trying to pass Micheal Andretti when >> Andretti moved over in front of Unser at the last second and took then both >> out, and that was in the middle of a straight with no reason to be >> changing lines. Andretti admitted fault saying that he didn't see Unser >> coming, but I don't remember Micheal calling HIMSELF an ***. >That's because Tracy saw Andretti. Tracy dualed Andretti all the way down the >back stretch and into the corner. Tracy said he knew Andretti was there.

Of course he knew he was there. Where "there" means racing with. Or behind Tracy. But he thought Mikey had backed off going into the turn.

Scott, Hold on the last veiw on accident from the incar shows Mike's front wheel just behind Tracy's front. Well by SCCA and most anyone elses rules that means you have the right for room in the corner. I think the rule actually reads if you front wheel is ahead of the middle of chassis on the car you are trying to overtake. Tracy chopped him hard. It really was a dumb move on Tracy's part and cost him any points he would have gained in the race. Dave

This is too easy. Rather than Rus having to prove that there is no rule, why doesn't somebody just post this alleged rule? Not being familiar with SCCA Club Racing, I was wondering what ovals they race at? two As you saw these two protests disallowed, can't you tell us why? Besides that, Rus simply said it was a rule of thumb, not a rule. That doesn't mean the SCCA couldn't disallow such protests, does it?

I'm not a racer nor an expert on the subject, but it seems to me that if one car is passing another car going into a turn on an oval, and the passing car is ahead of the slower car going into the turn, then the slower car should yield. My two cents worth.

: If its not a written rule then why have drivers been DQ'ed for pulling the : same dumb move as Tracy did in SCCA Club Racing. I have seen at least two : protests disallowed due to this supposedly unwritten rule after the : overtaking car got hammered and its front wheels were past the midpoint of : the car being overtaken. You can still DQ someone for "dangerous driving." That terminology is in the rules. If a driver is deemed to be performing "dangerous driving," then it meets the criteria. If the opinion of the stewards is such that they believe a driver was dangerous by attempting a pass that did not get him alongside the other driver, and he is judged to be at fault, then that is why they rule that way. There are the following rules in the GCR: (paraphrasing since I don't know the exact wording) - it is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to perform a safe pass, - it is the responsibility of the driver being overtaken to provide racing room. Note, all of that is up to intepretation. That is why there are long developed rules of thumb. But, they are just that, rules of thumb. It's still up to the individual case presented. Rus'L --- NOTE -- Remove ekfido. --- Russell Jaslow | http://www.DeepThrottle.com/ |My employer Spec Racer Ford #33| http://www.DeepThrottle.com/Fun/ |to do with Finger Lakes Region| http://www.DeepThrottle.com/History/ |my drivel.

> Okay, As I said before as they entered the turn Andretti's front wheel was > past ahead of the middle point of Tracy's car thus giving him the line into > the corner. the actual point of contact was Tracy's side pod and Andrettis > front wheel, with Andretti slowing and hitting the rear wheel of tracy's > car. Andretti shoud have known tracy would chop him there and should have > waiting till he was wheel to wheel with Tracy, but tracy probly would have > hit him anyway. The laps prior to this contact tracy was quicker at the > first thrid of the corner but slower the last two thirds. What you saw was > tracy pulling a bit away. That still does not allow him to hit the passing > car. If the passing cars front wheels are infront of the mid point of the > car being passed he should get the room to race. This is a good example of > this since Tracy's stupid move took both of them out. > Dave Ditto. If I could have said it that well, I would have. Rick Boyd

I will get out my GCR and start looking, but since you do not have one what does that help. Well the race at Gateway's road course for one also on Daytonas Road Course. both of these track incorporate the oval as part of the track. Additionally it does not need to be an oval track for this rule to apply. They were disallowed due to the driver being overtaken was in the wrong and he lodged the protest. Well That was my point if its a rule of thimb then why did these protests get disallowed since the driver who hit the overtaking driver would have been in the right. As the overtaking driver you are repsonsible to make a safe pass. You have the line going into a corner if you are on the inside and you front wheels are past the midpoint of the other car. Dave

SCCA Stewards, in my experience, consider passing a shared responsibility experience. While it is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to effect a safe pass that does not absolve the overtaken driver from avoiding contact. It would also be significant to know the details of the protests you cite. Again, in my experience, SCCA SOM's, sitting as a first court, must decide on the rules and the evidence. All the evidence. Have you provided all the evidence heard by the protest court?

> > This is too easy. Rather than Rus having to prove that there is no rule, > why > > doesn't somebody just post this alleged rule? > I will get out my GCR and start looking, but since you do not have one what > does that help. Right, I don't have one. But then again, I wasn't disputing Rus. Aha, they don't race at ovals. I thought they must have, considering how you compared Tracy's incident in the same sentence with SCCA Club Racing. Oh gee, thanks for clarifying that. It doesn't seem you really know the details of the protest or the alleged rule that was applied here. The point is you didn't have a point. Your message implied that Rus was wrong, that it must have been a rule. O.K. Now back to the subject. Where is the SCCA rule?

Elkhart Lake, maybe...? Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

So then with this logic a corner on an Oval must be different then a corner on any other type of race course even if it incorporates 70% of the orginal oval. A corner is a corner as far as passing is concerned. I will get out my fastrack news for the summarys of these protests. But then again You probly don't get SportsCar the offical magizine of the SCCA so you would not know what the specifics of the ruling was anyway. that may have been the reason I was a bit vague. also going thru possibly 2 years of Fastrack notes is not worth trying to disprove someone over the internet. Well since you do not have a GCR it going to be hard for me to tell you the section and paragraph its in. Actually this is gettting usless since you actaully think a corner on a oval should be judged differently then a corner on a road course as far as safe passing is concerned. enough on this subject actaully. If you really think Tracy was in the right to hit Andretti then so be it. I guess I will have to watch for you namewhen I online race since I will know what to expect from you. Just turn in never look. Dave

>> From what I could see Tracy's back wheel made contact with Andretti's >front. >> It was clear that Tracy was moving ahead of him going in and if Andretti >had >> of been 'reasonable' (as Parker Johnstone later described Richie Hearn) he >> would have backed off and gone after him at the next corner. >I'm not a racer nor an expert on the subject, but it seems to me that if one >car is passing another car going into a turn on an oval, and the passing car >is ahead of the slower car going into the turn, then the slower car should >yield. They were even going into the corner. Tracy pulled ahead (MA fell behind) as MA was starting to brake to avoid a wreck. It is generally accepted that the person on the inside of the corner has the position when his front wheel is up to the door panel or side pod of his opponent. Clearly MA had position on tracey and tracey refused to back off. Plus tracey was swerving into MA down the main straight. The latter in itself is worth a punch in the mouth IMHO. And if anyone really does not understand this basic racing stuff (forget who is involved) I hope you do not do any sort of online racing. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

> And if anyone really does not understand this basic racing stuff (forget > who is involved) I hope you do not do any sort of online racing. Greg, while I appreciate your explanation of the incident and your interpretation of racing etiquette, I think your admonition to not do any sort of online racing (whatever that is) is misplaced. Perhaps you should be sending that part to Paul and Michael. I'm sure they would tender it the recognition deserves.

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> > Aha, they don't race at ovals. I thought they must have, considering how > you > > compared Tracy's incident in the same sentence with SCCA Club Racing. > So then with this logic a corner on an Oval must be different then a corner > on any other type of race course even if it incorporates 70% of the orginal > oval. A corner is a corner as far as passing is concerned.

Sorry, I don't agree with that logic. No I don't. I guess you put me in my place. If you are going to take the time to dispute Rus over this alleged rule, you would save face if you had some pertinent data to support your claim. Dave, if either you have the rule or you don't. It's that simple! You know the old saying: put up or shut up. If you really don't know, just say so. How I personally judge a corner on an oval or a road course is irrelevant. I just want to see this alleged rule that you are claiming exists, that disputes Rus assertion that it doesn't. O.K. Dave, if that's your witty way of saying that you really don't know about such a rule, I accept it. Thank you.

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> > > Aha, they don't race at ovals. I thought they must have, considering how > > you > > > compared Tracy's incident in the same sentence with SCCA Club Racing. > > So then with this logic a corner on an Oval must be different then a corner > > on any other type of race course even if it incorporates 70% of the orginal > > oval. A corner is a corner as far as passing is concerned. > Sorry, I don't agree with that logic. > > > > As you saw these two protests disallowed, can't you tell us why? > > I will get out my fastrack news for the summarys of these protests. But > > then again You probly don't get SportsCar the offical magizine of the SCCA > No I don't. I guess you put me in my place. > > so you would not know what the specifics of the ruling was anyway. that > > may have been the reason I was a bit vague. also going thru possibly 2 > > years of Fastrack notes is not worth trying to disprove someone over the > > internet. > If you are going to take the time to dispute Rus over this alleged rule, you > would save face if you had some pertinent data to support your claim. > > > O.K. Now back to the subject. Where is the SCCA rule? > > Well since you do not have a GCR it going to be hard for me to tell you the > > section and paragraph its in. Actually this is gettting usless since you > > actaully think a corner on a oval should be judged differently then a > > corner on a road course as far as safe passing is concerned. > Dave, if either you have the rule or you don't. It's that simple! You know the > old saying: put up or shut up. If you really don't know, just say so. How I > personally judge a corner on an oval or a road course is irrelevant. I just > want to see this alleged rule that you are claiming exists, that disputes Rus > assertion that it doesn't. > > enough on this subject actaully. If you really think Tracy was in the > > right to hit Andretti then so be it. I guess I will have to watch for you > > namewhen I online race since I will know what to expect from you. Just > > turn in never look. > O.K. Dave, if that's your witty way of saying that you really don't know about > such a rule, I accept it. > Thank you.

When did racing come down to this crap- bannish it!! -- Tom "I already assumed That we're in the felony room But I ain't a judge, you don't have to be nice to me But please tell that To your friend in the cowboy hat You know he keeps on sayin' ev'rythin' twice to me"-dylan

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> On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 06:40:51 GMT, Roger Thompson > >That's because Tracy saw Andretti. Tracy dualed Andretti all the way down the > >back stretch and into the corner. Tracy said he knew Andretti was there. > Of course he knew he was there. Where "there" means racing with. Or > behind Tracy. > But he thought Mikey had backed off going into the turn.

You are correct... Paul "thought" wrong!

: I will get out my GCR and start looking, but since you do not have one what : does that help. Well, I'll be waiting. I do have a copy of the 1999 GCR, so if you actaully find this rule, then point me to the exact location. In fact, I'll even offer up a challenge. If you can find this rule (and I'm not talking about the "it is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to execute a safe pass" one since I alread mentioned that one, but rather the one where if a driver is not even with another car, it is not his turn, a written rule, rather than a rule of thumb, that you claim is in the GCR) I will send you free of charge an R&R Racing hat. : > Besides that, Rus simply said it was a rule of thumb, not a rule. That : > doesn't mean the SCCA couldn't disallow such protests, does it? : > : Well That was my point if its a rule of thimb then why did these protests : get disallowed since the driver who hit the overtaking driver would have : been in the right. For one thing, neither you or I sat in the Stewards of the Meeting session when this protest was heard. Are you familiar with how a protest is handled at a SCCA event? For another thing, a rule of thumb is not a written rule, ergo, there may be many other circumstances that needed to be looked at to come up with their decision. A rule of thumb is to help the Stewards make a decision, but it most certainly cannot be used to determine their decision. : As the overtaking driver you are repsonsible to make a safe pass. You have : the line going into a corner if you are on the inside and you front wheels : are past the midpoint of the other car. It is also the responsibility of the driver being overtaken to leave racing room. That is also in the GCR. Rus'L --- NOTE -- Remove ekfido. --- Russell Jaslow | http://www.DeepThrottle.com/ |My employer Spec Racer Ford #33| http://www.DeepThrottle.com/Fun/ |to do with Finger Lakes Region| http://www.DeepThrottle.com/History/ |my drivel.

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 06:33:20 GMT, Roger Thompson

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>> On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 06:40:51 GMT, Roger Thompson >> >That's because Tracy saw Andretti. Tracy dualed Andretti all the way down the >> >back stretch and into the corner. Tracy said he knew Andretti was there. >> Of course he knew he was there. Where "there" means racing with. Or >> behind Tracy. >> But he thought Mikey had backed off going into the turn. >You are correct... Paul "thought" wrong!

As you can see roger, I keep things where they belong... in the newsgroup. Whether Paul was made a bad move is debateable. And it all comes down to how one sees the world. But the fact is that Michael Andretti has dropped out of another championship hunt late in the season..AGAIN! It's an unfortunate situation for Michael Andretti. But he would rather prove a point on the race track than to drive like other drivers such as Jimmy Vasser. Paul is a tough driver to pass. And Mikey should have been smart about it. Instead he forced the issue. Mikey could have caught Paul in traffic. But he didn't. Just my opinion. And you have yours.

Well, I don't think I would use the word 'tough', I reckon in this instance 'dangerous' would be more appropriate. It's very easy to hide behind these sorts of phrases, when what you should be saying is, 'You better be careful of this driver when passing, because he's likely to put you into the wall.' All this stance suits is Paul Tracy, because the driver behind Tracy is going to back off in circumstances in which, with a different driver ahead, they would normally have made a pass with confidence. -- Peter Ives

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 07:55:30 -0500, "Greg Cisko" >Plus tracey was swerving into MA down the main straight. The latter in itself is worth >a punch in the mouth IMHO. So is incessant whinning, one of MAs traits. Mike

He didn't whine. He called him an ***. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 07:55:30 -0500, "Greg Cisko" >>Plus tracey was swerving into MA down the main straight. The latter in itself is worth >>a punch in the mouth IMHO. >So is incessant whinning, one of MAs traits. >Mike

Actually it was PT who referred to MA as an ***, not the reverse as seems to have been implied by the earlier post. I do race (SCCA -- I know it's not CART) and I don't agree with the previous statement in the thread that it is generally accepted that if the overtaking driver's front wheel is even with the other driver's sidepod, he has the corner. And they were NOT even going into the corner. MA should have backed out, IMHO. Of course, I also believe Zinardi's pass on Herta at Laguna Seca should have been disallowed too, but that's another discussion..... John

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> He didn't whine. He called him an ***. > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. > cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com > >On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 07:55:30 -0500, "Greg Cisko" > >>Plus tracey was swerving into MA down the main straight. The latter in > itself is worth > >>a punch in the mouth IMHO. > >So is incessant whinning, one of MAs traits. > >Mike

I don't know where you dreamt this up, but it is total bullshit. It was MA. Then today, Franchitti was trying to get by PT, and PT was his usual ahole self. then Franchitti says on the radio, "What the *** is going on with that ...." Then ABC cut the transmission and apologizes. Previously his team manager told PT to let Franchitti by if he was unable to gain on Montoya. Then earlier PT spins after taking the lead of the race. Then the several laps after the incident with Franchitti, the ahole crashed out!! To summarize: PAUL TRACY SUCKS THE BIG ONE!!! Questions? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 02:24:55 -0500, "Greg Cisko" >Questions? Yes, why, like MA are you such a whinner? Mike

>On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 02:24:55 -0500, "Greg Cisko" >>Questions? >Yes, why, like MA are you such a whinner? >Mike Because PT sucks the big one. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com