5 speed shifter

Is it possible too make a 5 speed shifter so you can go from 1 too4 or 5 immidiatly

ACTLABS is coming out with such a shifter very soon. Unfortunately it will only work with their steering wheels and it requires a patch for the programs you want to use it with. Right now, the only sim I'm aware of that can use it is SCGT. However you can still use the shifter as a sequential shifter for other games and, apparently, the required patching is pretty easy to accomplish so, when the shifter comes out, other games will probably issue patches also. There have also been a few posts recently about people who are developing plans to build this kind of shifter. The ones I've seen so far don't really go immediately from one gear to another that is not immediately in sequence though. Instead they try to simulate that by doing the appropriate number of sequential shifts very quickly so that it seems as if it goes all the way at once. The problem with that is that there is apparently a delay that is programmed into GPL after each shift before another can be recognized so that kind of defeats the scheme. Here is a link to one of these sites: http://wwwcip.rus.uni-stuttgart.de/~mas20122/hshift.htm. If you search in this newsgroup you may still be able to find some other posts on this subject. >Is it possible too make a 5 speed shifter so you can go from 1 too4 or 5 >immidiatly

Yes, there is some pages on the net on how to do that. H-Shifter: http://wwwcip.rus.uni-stuttgart.de/~mas20122/hshift.htm This is a good and detailed page. Ingemars Hemsida: http://w1.415.telia.com/~u41500035/vaxel.html This page is unfortunately in swedish only, but he uses a much simplier method. Here are the links to the wiring for the shifter and the Basic Stamp2: http://w1.415.telia.com/~u41500035/spaken.html http://w1.415.telia.com/~u41500035/vaxelsch.html -- /M Lindqvist Spamguard: Remove .ajabaja in e-mail

Why do u want to fo from 1st gear to 4th? With a manual gearbox u can easily do that, but with tiptronic steptronic and so on, U have to go through 2nd and 3rd. Schumacher

GPL.... -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 "Keyboard error or no keyboard attached. Press F1 for help"

Maybe not 1st to 4th, but being able to quickly slam it into neutral would be nice...or a slow, controlled downshift from 4th to 1st, etc etc -- Kirk Lane ICQ: 28171652 BRT #187 "I read dead Russian authors volumes at a time I write everything down except what's on my mind 'Cause my greatest fear is the sucking sound And then I know I'll never get back out" -'Narcolepsy', Third Eye Blind > Why do u want to fo from 1st gear to 4th? With a manual gearbox u can easily > do that, but with tiptronic steptronic and so on, U have to go through 2nd > and 3rd. > Schumacher > > Is it possible too make a 5 speed shifter so you can go from 1 too4 or 5 > > immidiatly

Actually a lot guy F1 racers used to bypass gears when they used non sequential boxes. both going up gears and down since the cars have little grip. Dave > >Why do u want to fo from 1st gear to 4th? With a manual gearbox u can easily > >do that, but with tiptronic steptronic and so on, U have to go through 2nd

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> >and 3rd. > GPL.... > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash > http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk > ICQ# 11257824 > "Keyboard error or no keyboard attached. Press F1 for help"

We professional driving instructors teach "block changing" as it is called, as standard practice for all road drivers when changing down. By going from fourth or fifth gear to second for instance, you eliminate many hazards. To name but a few advantages....... 1. Whilst braking, you stand far greater chance of locking up when the clutch pedal is on the floor. This is especially true when there is diesel/ oil/ water etc on the surface. By eliminating gear changes you get more stability. It also allows the hands to remain on the wheel for longer periods of time and hence more control. 2. Clutch wear is reduced dramatically. It costs about 20 for a set of brake pads! 3. The old chestnut that engine braking helps to slow you is not true unless you have in excess of 300BHP pulling the flywheel back. This is in any case, negated by any declutching. Try it. do 30 mph in 4th and then come off the gas and change into 3rd without braking. The retardation is hardly going to put teardrops on the windscreen. Mark

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> Maybe not 1st to 4th, but being able to quickly slam it into neutral would > be nice...or a slow, controlled downshift from 4th to 1st, etc etc > -- > Kirk Lane > ICQ: 28171652 > BRT #187 > "I read dead Russian authors volumes at a time > I write everything down except what's on my mind > 'Cause my greatest fear is the sucking sound > And then I know I'll never get back out" > -'Narcolepsy', Third Eye Blind > > Why do u want to fo from 1st gear to 4th? With a manual gearbox u can > easily > > do that, but with tiptronic steptronic and so on, U have to go through

2nd

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> > and 3rd. > > Schumacher > > > Is it possible too make a 5 speed shifter so you can go from 1 too4 or

5 > > > immidiatly

> We professional driving instructors teach "block changing" as it is called, > as standard practice for all road drivers when changing down. Are you a racing instructor ? True I guess Can't argue this on a road car, but on the track, who cares Uhm, try downchanging to 1st and see if you think the same Personally I drive a RWD car, and as in all roadcars, the brake bias doesn't let the rear wheels do much braking, but by downchanging at a point where my revs will go to approx mah HP in the lower gear, I can sometimes "lock" (meaning that they spin slower than they actually should according to roadspeed, they still turn of course) the rears if I'm under heavy braking, and the increased rear wheel braking will most certainly shorten my braking distance, would be different in a FWD car of course This is not something I recommend for road use or in slippery conditions btw, better kept for track use, the rear end sometimes will swap ends on you :-) -- Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:17:23 +0100, Let me give one disadvantage, Mark. You do this at highway speed, in the rain or on a slick surface, and you may slide or spin off the road. You know that, right? More importantly, your -students- know that, don't they? Not true at all. Read on.. Try 4th -> 3rd at 65 mph and see if you get any braking, even if you have a 50hp engine, such as a VW, etc.. Clue... you WILL get lots of braking. FWIW, engine braking has -nothing- to do with HP. It has to do with gear ratios, compression ratios, general engine friction and flywheel weight for the most part. Mark, you, as a 'professional' driving instructor are not -really- teaching people this stuff are you? I hope not, because you could get them killed. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

>Try 4th -> 3rd at 65 mph and see if you get any braking, even if you have >a 50hp engine, such as a VW, etc.. >Clue... you WILL get lots of braking. VERY little compared to the effect from hitting the brakes. FWIW, engine braking IS measured in horsepower, just look at the specs for any commercial truck engine. Getting a truck stopped is much harder than getting a car stopped because of the weight involved. (guess that's obvious, duh) Truck engine manufacturers scream about this measurement almost as loudly as they do for torque and horsepower. A truck engine optimized for braking will have about 2/3 the braking power as acceleration power. A car engine is probably about 1/3. Compare these numbers to the easy 1000 horsepower the average road car brakes can produce and you'll see why the effect is minor on overall braking. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

On 23 Aug 1999 11:33:48 GMT, >>Try 4th -> 3rd at 65 mph and see if you get any braking, even if you have >>a 50hp engine, such as a VW, etc.. >>Clue... you WILL get lots of braking. >VERY little compared to the effect from hitting the brakes. Well I know that.. LOL!!!... The original 'professional' instructor claimed there would be little to no effect from shifting down, unless you had over 300hp, but you snipped that. He claimed that it is a good idea to shift down from 5th-2nd, since the effect would be negligible. I pointed out that his recommendation would not be a good idea on slick surfaces, at highway speeds. Do you agree with him? So you believe, as the original poster (which you totally snipped) that unless you have over 300hp the braking from shifting down will be negligible? Tell us, and please don't continue to snip the context from the thread. Thanks. Trucks? Yawn.. [shrug] Kewl. Hey Don, what happens when you slam the shifter from 5th to 2nd, at 65mph, on a wet highway, in a 50hp Volkswagen? Now Don, please attempt to answer the questions I have asked and try to avoid snipping the context from the thread. Thanks again. BTW, I don't know about (or care about) trucks, but I do know a little about cars. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

Ed, I don't really get why you're so worked up here. I'm a road driver in the UK. I was taught by a professional driving instructor. (Notice no quotes round that, Ed). He taught me to shift from 4th to 2nd as matter of course. But not going down the highway at 65, instead of using the brakes, you do it when you're going to slow down to a speed that suits 2nd gear. Suppose you're approaching a turn (left in the UK, like a right turn in the US), you slow down, you start changing gear - you don't go 5-4-3-2- turn. You don't have to, 'cos you're SLOWING DOWN, you go 5-2-turn. I've been doing that for 20 years, no problems - and the car has never, ever slipped doing it. Oh, yeah and sometimes it rains in the UK, so I've done even on slippery roads (sometimes I'm so daring I scare myself) Andy

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>On 23 Aug 1999 11:33:48 GMT, >>>Try 4th -> 3rd at 65 mph and see if you get any braking, even if you

have

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>>>a 50hp engine, such as a VW, etc.. >>>Clue... you WILL get lots of braking. >>VERY little compared to the effect from hitting the brakes. >Well I know that.. LOL!!!... >The original 'professional' instructor claimed there would be little to >no effect from shifting down, unless you had over 300hp, but you >snipped that. He claimed that it is a good idea to shift down from >5th-2nd, since the effect would be negligible. I pointed out that >his recommendation would not be a good idea on slick surfaces, at >highway speeds. >Do you agree with him? >>>FWIW, engine braking has -nothing- to do with HP. It has to do with >>>gear ratios, compression ratios, general engine friction and flywheel >>>weight for the most part. >>>Mark, you, as a 'professional' driving instructor are not -really-

teaching >>>people this stuff are you? I hope not, because you could get them killed. >>FWIW, engine braking IS measured in horsepower, just look at the specs for any

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>>commercial truck engine. >So you believe, as the original poster (which you totally snipped) that >unless you have over 300hp the braking from shifting down will be >negligible? >Tell us, and please don't continue to snip the context from the thread. >Thanks. >>Getting a truck stopped is much harder than getting a >>car stopped because of the weight involved. (guess that's obvious, duh) >Trucks? Yawn.. >>Truck >>engine manufacturers scream about this measurement almost as loudly as

they do >>for torque and horsepower. >[shrug] >>A truck engine optimized for braking will have >>about 2/3 the braking power as acceleration power. A car engine is probably

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>>about 1/3. >Kewl. >>Compare these numbers to the easy 1000 horsepower the average road >>car brakes can produce and you'll see why the effect is minor on overall >>braking. >Hey Don, what happens when you slam the shifter from 5th to >2nd, at 65mph, on a wet highway, in a 50hp Volkswagen? >>Don McCorkle >>Libertarian Motorsports >Now Don, please attempt to answer the questions I have asked and >try to avoid snipping the context from the thread. Thanks again. >BTW, I don't know about (or care about) trucks, but I do know a >little about cars. >-- >* rrevved at mindspring dot com >* http://www.cabal.net >* http://www.sputum.com

The only time it becomes an issue on wet roads is if you're using engine braking to slow the car down quicker. Obviously if you drop too many gears at once it's going to affect the car but in normal road use when slowing for lights or a roundabout for example, there's no reason not to skip gears. In any case, in a recent British F3 race Kristian Kolby complained he was losing time because he was having to go through the gearbox when braking instead of missing gears as he normally did. M

Well if we are talking about sequential downchanges, you are missing the point. Mark

> > We professional driving instructors teach "block changing" as it is called, > > as standard practice for all road drivers when changing down. > Are you a racing instructor ? He is qualified as a high speed driving instructor (or something like that). -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:32:43 +0100, Well, lets see. Read on.. Quotes? I was -quoting- the original poster. That part, of course was snipped by the person I replied to, and apparently not seen by you. Great. Of course that wasn't what the original poster said. Also, he recommended 5th to 2nd as a normal driving style, and he didn't qualify his post by letting us in on the speed he was traveling. Well, IMO, that depends on how fast you're going. Do you Brits ever drive above 60MPH? In the U.S. we do it all the time, and we mostly avoid shifting down from 5th to 2nd at those speeds. How fast do you drive? Do you shift from 5th to 2nd at 65MPH on one of those famous slippery roads in the U.K.? LOL! I believe in letting someone scare themself as much as they want to. I just don't believe that the original poster who claims to be a "professional driving instructor" should teach methods to -cause- fear as a normal part of driving school.

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>Andy >>On 23 Aug 1999 11:33:48 GMT, >>>>Try 4th -> 3rd at 65 mph and see if you get any braking, even if you >have >>>>a 50hp engine, such as a VW, etc.. >>>>Clue... you WILL get lots of braking. >>>VERY little compared to the effect from hitting the brakes. >>Well I know that.. LOL!!!... >>The original 'professional' instructor claimed there would be little to >>no effect from shifting down, unless you had over 300hp, but you >>snipped that. He claimed that it is a good idea to shift down from >>5th-2nd, since the effect would be negligible. I pointed out that >>his recommendation would not be a good idea on slick surfaces, at >>highway speeds. >>Do you agree with him? >>>>FWIW, engine braking has -nothing- to do with HP. It has to do with >>>>gear ratios, compression ratios, general engine friction and flywheel >>>>weight for the most part. >>>>Mark, you, as a 'professional' driving instructor are not -really- >teaching >>>>people this stuff are you? I hope not, because you could get them killed. >>>FWIW, engine braking IS measured in horsepower, just look at the specs for >any >>>commercial truck engine. >>So you believe, as the original poster (which you totally snipped) that >>unless you have over 300hp the braking from shifting down will be >>negligible? >>Tell us, and please don't continue to snip the context from the thread. >>Thanks. >>>Getting a truck stopped is much harder than getting a >>>car stopped because of the weight involved. (guess that's obvious, duh) >>Trucks? Yawn.. >>>Truck >>>engine manufacturers scream about this measurement almost as loudly as >they do >>>for torque and horsepower. >>[shrug] >>>A truck engine optimized for braking will have >>>about 2/3 the braking power as acceleration power. A car engine is >probably >>>about 1/3. >>Kewl. >>>Compare these numbers to the easy 1000 horsepower the average road >>>car brakes can produce and you'll see why the effect is minor on overall >>>braking. >>Hey Don, what happens when you slam the shifter from 5th to >>2nd, at 65mph, on a wet highway, in a 50hp Volkswagen? >>>Don McCorkle >>>Libertarian Motorsports >>Now Don, please attempt to answer the questions I have asked and >>try to avoid snipping the context from the thread. Thanks again. >>BTW, I don't know about (or care about) trucks, but I do know a >>little about cars.

-- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

you get a toasted engine

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>On 23 Aug 1999 11:33:48 GMT, >>>Try 4th -> 3rd at 65 mph and see if you get any braking, even if you have >>>a 50hp engine, such as a VW, etc.. >>>Clue... you WILL get lots of braking. >>VERY little compared to the effect from hitting the brakes. >Well I know that.. LOL!!!... >The original 'professional' instructor claimed there would be little to >no effect from shifting down, unless you had over 300hp, but you >snipped that. He claimed that it is a good idea to shift down from >5th-2nd, since the effect would be negligible. I pointed out that >his recommendation would not be a good idea on slick surfaces, at >highway speeds. >Do you agree with him?

Absolutely, but not the way you have paraphrased it. He was reffering to braking down to the speed at which it would be prudent to go for 2nd, thereby avoiding two downshifts, each one involving a chance for error. He didn't put it this clearly, because it was obvious that he didn't mean snatching it directly into 2nd as soon as you hit the brake. I don't care what horsepower you have, the brakes are capable of exceeding the tires' coefficient of friction on any car ever made. Engine braking can be usefull to change the front to rear bias, but will do nothing to increase the available braking. I have snipped nothing, and resent that you are trying to make it look as if I'm hiding something. Perhaps I quoted from a post someone else had snipped, but trust me here, I SNIPPED NOTHING. No one ever said you should, that's just the way you chose to interpret it. Again, I have not snipped anything. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports PS: If this discussion is going to continue, please snip it a bit. It's going to be real ponderous to read, but I'm afraid to now. :-)

On 24 Aug 1999 08:41:29 GMT, It won't continue because you don't grasp anything that was originally said by the profesional. I quit. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

No you won't because most of the braking is done BEFORE you change to the lower gear. It is for exactly these sort of conditions that this technique is used to keep ON the road. Of course, if you know better than 30,000 odd instructors and disagree with "Roadcraft", The police driving manual...............!!! And you about know the increased odds of locking up wheels in the wet under braking, when the transmission is being repeatedly disengaged and engaged, introducing all manner of other forces to the rear wheels right? Don't insult my intelligence please. Of course engine braking force will increase with speed. Why not try doing it at 100mph and watch your valves come up to introduce themselves through the bonnet! Let's try another experiment. Let's get into our cars and drive towards a wall, side by side at 60 mph. You use your gears to slow up and I'll use my brakes. Let's see who ends up in hospital. The whole point is that brakes on road cars are powerful enough to exceed the performance of any road tyre. Why the hell do you think all class 1 police pursuit drivers use this method I think that woodie has posted a good answer to this already Ed :-) I have 3248 test passes to date. How many do you have ;-) No offence mate but leave it to the pros eh Mark

Err - I do But I want to! Hehe - I remember a similar debate when a police driving instructor came to give a talk to all the budding rally/race drivers (including me) at our local motor club. He explained how the police are (were?) trained to double declutch & never to perform more actions than necessary at one time. Hence braking & double de-clutching was a no-no! Therefore they would NOT change down and brake at the same time. As you can imagine the reaction from our group about engine braking, heel & toeing, being in the correct gear for accelerating after the braking manouvre, raged to the extent that the police instructor got hot under the collar and started muttering about how poor professional racing drivers were at normal driving. With modern brakes there probably is not the need to change down - but to many it feels lazy and we prefer to be more involved with our driving. Certainly when it comes to poor conditions (ice, snow, other slippery conditions) the use of gears to aid slowing and avoiding sudden large ratio changes is much more beneficial. At which point habitual changing from top to second may cause some interesting moments. Cheers Tony

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> > >Suppose you're approaching a turn (left in the UK, like a right turn in > the > > >US), you slow down, you start changing gear - you don't go 5-4-3-2- turn. > Err - I do > > >You don't have to, > But I want to! > > 'cos you're SLOWING DOWN, you go 5-2-turn. > [SNIP] > With modern brakes there probably is not the need to change down - but to > many it feels lazy and we prefer to be more involved with our driving. > Certainly when it comes to poor conditions (ice, snow, other slippery > conditions) the use of gears to aid slowing and avoiding sudden large ratio > changes is much more beneficial. At which point habitual changing from top > to second may cause some interesting moments.

Speaking of "interesting moments", I remember a TV documentary about road crash investigators where it turned out that a guy had wrapped his car round a tree one morning because he downshifted too early which sent the car into a spin. What made the story interesting was that he told the police he had been travelling in the opposite direction along the road to that which the investigators deduced from the evidence: it appeared that he didn't want his parents to know where he had spent the night! I find it's normally better just to use the brakes to slow down in GPL, as you can certainly spin if you change down too soon (eg. at La Source). There is one proviso: sometimes if you use engine braking it can be easier to judge your speed - you just change down at certain points on the track and you should slow down at the right rate for the corner. A good example is the Nouveau Monde hairpin at Rouen, where you need to change down to third just before the left-hander, then second just after the apex, and you should slow down enough for the hairpin, but not so much that you spin. I guess an expert could do it all on the brakes anyway, but he would need to be a very good judge of speed. At most corners you just hit the brakes at the right point and slow down as quickly as possible, ie. you only need to avoid locking the wheels, and engine braking is of no benefit at all, since the brakes are already much better than the tyres.

Lets just say that the policeman was referring to a peculiarity of his training as it is by no means the way all police drivers are taught. Incidentally, most professional racing drivers are poor road drivers as they always want to apply track/rally course methods to the road. It's not for no reason that on a percentage basis racing drivers have more accidents on public roads per mile driven than any other profession. M

: I find it's normally better just to use the brakes to slow down in GPL, : as you can certainly spin if you change down too soon (eg. at La : Source). Well, remember the engine is only connected to the REAR wheels in GPL unlike modern road cars where engine braking would usually be FRONT wheels only. I had a play with "rear wheel only" braking in GPL the other day to see if it would help my braking technique. (When rear wheel braking you _really_ don't want to lock up so you have to pay MUCH more attention). Major kudos to anyone who can safely negotiate parabolica from flat out with no front brakes because I certainly can't. I gave it up as impossible in the end (but I'm not that good a driver). Not tried it but I _think_ front wheels only braking would be easier. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html