Hmmmm, this should be good.....
Spirit of Speed 1937 prospects and track speculation
A provocative 'Spirit of Speed 1937 vs GPL' post led to speculation about the coming 1930s racer from Broadsword. Many feared it would be arcade-like, citing floating numbers in screenshots, while others listed confirmed and hoped-for circuits such as Brooklands, Avus, Monza, Tripoli and Montlhéry. Some saw it as a test of whether historic racing can sell.
Automated summary.
Thank you for putting a misleading suybject on a completely pointless
message. At least plug an empty site or something.
Jan.
------
> Hmmmm, this should be good.....
Oh come on, we've learned to wait until the demo at least, if not
the genuine item...
After all, SoS may end up more like MGPRS2's retro-mode than GPL
<shiver>. :(
"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark
LOL.
Anyways, I actually have the feeling that SoS will be like a 1937 version of
TOCA. i.e A damn good arcade racer, but definately not a sim.
Hasbro/Microprose will go for realism in GP3 (when it eventually appears)
Thats my opinion anyway. Waiting to be proved wrong.
Gavin
MGPRS2's retro-mode
:))
Markus
What concerns me about the screenshots of SofS1937 is all those arcady numbers
in the sky.
Papy would avoid that like the plague.
Don't think the drivers of the time would have seen those unless they were '3
sheets to the wind' (drunk) at the time of drivin'
LOL
Alan
Quoted text (7 lines)
> What concerns me about the screenshots of SofS1937 is all those arcady numbers > in the sky. > Papy would avoid that like the plague. > Don't think the drivers of the time would have seen those unless they were '3 > sheets to the wind' (drunk) at the time of drivin' > LOL > AlanCommon ras protocol is to "NEVER" mention MGPRS2's retro-mode unless it is
absolutely nessesairy!
:)
-ilmore
Olav, Avus was the most BORING circuit in Europe (even at it's original
length, before WW2) and Monza had the banking from the time it was
originally built (just after Adam and Eve arrived! :o))
> > What concerns me about the screenshots of SofS1937 is all those arcady numbers
> > in the sky.
> > Papy would avoid that like the plague.
> > Don't think the drivers of the time would have seen those unless they were '3
> > sheets to the wind' (drunk) at the time of drivin'
> > LOL
> > Alan
> You may be right and you may be wrong :) Look at SCGT, it has arcady numbers,
> but it is by r.a.s. defined as A Good Sim.
> My worst concern is that I haven't seen any screenshots from the***pit yet.
> I'm really looking forward to this game, imagine driving Avus and Brookland.
> Too bad the monza banking wasn't build before 51 or something. Or am i wrong
> here ?
> --
> Olav K. Malmin
> remove spam when replying
> Olav, Avus was the most BORING circuit in Europe (even at it's original
> length, before WW2) and Monza had the banking from the time it was
> originally built (just after Adam and Eve arrived! :o))
Avus was indeed boring with two 10km straights the cars was just going
flatout for minutes before either braking for the hairpin at one end or
taking the banking at the other.
And THE Monza banking we see in the GPL Monza did not exist in the 30s,
but the track did have a much shallower earth banking which was indeed
used for racing during some of the GPs in the 30s. Not sure which
configuration was used in 37, but the 38 one can be seen at:
http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/images/trk_monza.jpg
I really hope they make some of the other tracks of the 30s though: very
fast Bremgarten, the triangular 26km track at Pescara and best of all
the old 29km Brno track!
Check out the great tracks of the time at:
http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/track.htm
--
Arne Martin
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > Olav, Avus was the most BORING circuit in Europe (even at it's original > > length, before WW2) and Monza had the banking from the time it was > > originally built (just after Adam and Eve arrived! :o)) > Avus was indeed boring with two 10km straights the cars was just going > flatout for minutes before either braking for the hairpin at one end or > taking the banking at the other.Quoted text (12 lines)
>> What concerns me about the screenshots of SofS1937 is all those arcady numbers >> in the sky. >> Papy would avoid that like the plague. >> Don't think the drivers of the time would have seen those unless they were '3 >> sheets to the wind' (drunk) at the time of drivin' >> LOL >> Alan >You may be right and you may be wrong :) Look at SCGT, it has arcady numbers, >but it is by r.a.s. defined as A Good Sim. >My worst concern is that I haven't seen any screenshots from the***pit yet.take a look at Broadsword's web site for***pit screenshots
www.broadsword.co.uk
Alan
I agree, Avus was and is boring, even with the banking. The Italian Grand
Prix in 1937 was at Livorno (the Italians changed it from Monza to try and
give the home cars an advantage, but it didn't work), so Monza would be out.
BUT, what about the Mellaha circuit at Tripoli! The second fastest after
Avus (1937 fastest lap 171.74 mph) with a fastest 1937 lap at 142.44mph,
with corners, and palm trees to boot! Even the drivers of the day liked it.
Steve
>Olav, Avus was the most BORING circuit in Europe (even at it's original
>length, before WW2) and Monza had the banking from the time it was
>originally built (just after Adam and Eve arrived! :o))
> Thanks for the additional data, Arne.
> (Was the concrete banking at Monza added during the Fascist period?)
No the concretebanking was built for the 55 GP.
THe history of monza can be found at:
http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/track.htm
--
Arne Martin
Quoted text (7 lines)
> I agree, Avus was and is boring, even with the banking. The Italian Grand > Prix in 1937 was at Livorno (the Italians changed it from Monza to try and > give the home cars an advantage, but it didn't work), so Monza would be out. > BUT, what about the Mellaha circuit at Tripoli! The second fastest after > Avus (1937 fastest lap 171.74 mph) with a fastest 1937 lap at 142.44mph, > with corners, and palm trees to boot! Even the drivers of the day liked it. > SteveThanks for the additional data, Arne.
(Was the concrete banking at Monza added during the Fascist period?)
Quoted text (23 lines)
> > Olav, Avus was the most BORING circuit in Europe (even at it's original > > length, before WW2) and Monza had the banking from the time it was > > originally built (just after Adam and Eve arrived! :o)) > Avus was indeed boring with two 10km straights the cars was just going > flatout for minutes before either braking for the hairpin at one end or > taking the banking at the other. > And THE Monza banking we see in the GPL Monza did not exist in the 30s, > but the track did have a much shallower earth banking which was indeed > used for racing during some of the GPs in the 30s. Not sure which > configuration was used in 37, but the 38 one can be seen at: > http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/images/trk_monza.jpg > I really hope they make some of the other tracks of the 30s though: very > fast Bremgarten, the triangular 26km track at Pescara and best of all > the old 29km Brno track! > Check out the great tracks of the time at: > http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/track.htm > -- > Arne MartinEven "misty" when looked back on by these old eyes!
I know exactly what you mean....there are circuits that I can relate to as a
pimply-faced youth that I would love to see represented in an historical
simulation.
The ultimate for me would be to see GPL used as a "core" module, onto which
could be added "packs"......a 1930s pack, a 1950s pack, a 1960s Sports/GT
pack, and so on. That way I could experience all the cars and circuits that
my boyhood idols raced in and on!
> The ultimate for me would be to see GPL used as a "core" module, onto which
> could be added "packs"......a 1930s pack, a 1950s pack, a 1960s Sports/GT
> pack, and so on. That way I could experience all the cars and circuits that
> my boyhood idols raced in and on!
Yeah... Or even better, imagine if Papy released all the track, car and data
formats along with their tools for editing. Open source historic racing sim!
Probably about a gazillion reasons why it can't and won't happen but the
thought is enough to make me look like an idiot with a big smile pasted from
ear to ear. -:D
Cheers,
/ft
> From checking the website (http://www.broadsword.co.uk/) I see that both
> Tripoli and Monza will be included :-)
Hey! That's cheating. Hard facts always kill all the interesting speculation
and rumormonging on USEnet - you debate terrorist. -:D
If it hadn't been way too late, that would have read simply "thanks for the
URL".
Cheers,
/ft
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > From checking the website (http://www.broadsword.co.uk/) I see that both > > Tripoli and Monza will be included :-) > Hey! That's cheating. Hard facts always kill all the interesting speculation > and rumormonging on USEnet - you debate terrorist. -:D > If it hadn't been way too late, that would have read simply "thanks for the > URL".>The ultimate for me would be to see GPL used as a "core" module, onto which
>could be added "packs"......a 1930s pack, a 1950s pack, a 1960s Sports/GT
>pack, and so on. That way I could experience all the cars and circuits that
>my boyhood idols raced in and on!
Jaguar C/D Type, Aston Martin DBR, Birdcage Maserati, Mercedes 300SLR?
Dundrod, Le Mans, Goodwood?
Gimme!
Mind you, I suppose the Targa Florio and Mille Miglia would be a _little_
too much to ask :-)
--
JG
Why??... should be doable apart from the occasional stutter to load scenery.
<g>
I'd love to see those. And that cray one through Mexico... can't think of
the name right now.
Jan.
------
><Snip>
>Mind you, I suppose the Targa Florio and Mille Miglia would be a _little_
>too much to ask :-)
Tripoli and Brno and that would do me!! :o)
> I agree, Avus was and is boring, even with the banking. The Italian Grand
> Prix in 1937 was at Livorno (the Italians changed it from Monza to try and
> give the home cars an advantage, but it didn't work), so Monza would be out.
> BUT, what about the Mellaha circuit at Tripoli! The second fastest after
> Avus (1937 fastest lap 171.74 mph) with a fastest 1937 lap at 142.44mph,
> with corners, and palm trees to boot! Even the drivers of the day liked it.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Steve > >Olav, Avus was the most BORING circuit in Europe (even at it's original > >length, before WW2) and Monza had the banking from the time it was > >originally built (just after Adam and Eve arrived! :o))Thanks mate.
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > Thanks for the additional data, Arne. > > (Was the concrete banking at Monza added during the Fascist period?) > No the concretebanking was built for the 55 GP. > THe history of monza can be found at: > http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/monza.his > -- > Arne MartinOh jeez :o(......they've got those ***y "sky numbers" even in the
"from-the-cockpit" viewpoint!
AAARRRGH!
> > I agree, Avus was and is boring, even with the banking. The Italian Grand
> > Prix in 1937 was at Livorno (the Italians changed it from Monza to try and
> > give the home cars an advantage, but it didn't work), so Monza would be out.
> > BUT, what about the Mellaha circuit at Tripoli! The second fastest after
> > Avus (1937 fastest lap 171.74 mph) with a fastest 1937 lap at 142.44mph,
> > with corners, and palm trees to boot! Even the drivers of the day liked it.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > Steve > From checking the website (http://www.broadsword.co.uk/ I see that both > Tripoli and Monza will be included :-) > -- > Arne MartinI still have this sinking feeling (after looking at the screen shots) that
what we will see will be more arcade than sim.
I hope, of course, that my pessimism is proved totally groundless!
> > > From checking the website (http://www.broadsword.co.uk/) I see that both
> > > Tripoli and Monza will be included :-)
> > Hey! That's cheating. Hard facts always kill all the interesting speculation
> > and rumormonging on USEnet - you debate terrorist. -:D
> > If it hadn't been way too late, that would have read simply "thanks for the
Quoted text (17 lines)
> > URL". > But it doesn't list all tracks so we can still speculate on the others > :-) > Confirmed are: > Brooklands > Avus (http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/images/trk_avus.jpg) > Monza (http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/images/trk_monza.jpg) > Tripoli (http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/images/trk_tripoli.jpg) > Montlhry (http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/montlhe2.jpg) > Roosevelt (anyone heard of this track, was it real?) > Montana (another possible fantasy track?) > They claim it will ship with 9 tracks so two remain... > -- > Arne Martin> I still have this sinking feeling (after looking at the screen shots) that
> what we will see will be more arcade than sim.
> I hope, of course, that my pessimism is proved totally groundless!
Yes me too :-( And I really doubt if I will buy it from what it looks
like now...
But it's always fun to speculate on what tracks we might get to try our
hands on :-)
--
Arne Martin
Carrera?
> Why??... should be doable apart from the occasional stutter to load scenery.
Quoted text (11 lines)
> <g> > I'd love to see those. And that cray one through Mexico... can't think of > the name right now. > Jan. > ------ > ><Snip> > >Mind you, I suppose the Targa Florio and Mille Miglia would be a _little_ > >too much to ask :-)Oh man....the Targa would be sensational!
> >The ultimate for me would be to see GPL used as a "core" module, onto which
Quoted text (16 lines)
> >could be added "packs"......a 1930s pack, a 1950s pack, a 1960s Sports/GT > >pack, and so on. That way I could experience all the cars and circuits > that > >my boyhood idols raced in and on! > Jaguar C/D Type, Aston Martin DBR, Birdcage Maserati, Mercedes 300SLR? > Dundrod, Le Mans, Goodwood? > Gimme! > Mind you, I suppose the Targa Florio and Mille Miglia would be a _little_ > too much to ask :-) > -- > JGQuoted text (8 lines)
> > I still have this sinking feeling (after looking at the screen shots) that > > what we will see will be more arcade than sim. > > I hope, of course, that my pessimism is proved totally groundless! > Yes me too :-( And I really doubt if I will buy it from what it looks > like now... > But it's always fun to speculate on what tracks we might get to try our > hands on :-)On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:37:16 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"
>Oh man....the Targa would be sensational!
>> Jaguar C/D Type, Aston Martin DBR, Birdcage Maserati, Mercedes 300SLR?
>> Dundrod, Le Mans, Goodwood?
>> Mind you, I suppose the Targa Florio and Mille Miglia would be a _little_
>> too much to ask :-)
The Mille Miglia "circuit" would be a real challenge even for future
hardware: I guesstimate a GPL track.dat would be about 900MB big,
based on the figures of the 14mile & 13MB nurburg.dat.
The Targa Florio should be possible - but not in a 1930 GP sim.
The track back then was very long (AFAIR 90miles, laptimes over 2
hours), and mostly gravel roads through mountains and villages.
That would be considered Rallye today.
And it was not used by GP cars, only sports cars.
The GP cars did hillclimb races on gravel mountain passes in the Alps,
though. Hans Stuck was the "mountain king" with his double rear wheel
Auto Union. And that is something I would like to see in a sim!
(I once "raced" against a Testarossa up the south side of the
Timmelsjoch, and beat it with my 27hp motorcycle:
http://www.bawue.de/~matthead/xt/xt/ferrari.html )
That would be fun for online racing, a relatively short duel up the
hill.
The Mille Miglia was most interesting in the 1950 till the early
1970s, when the track became shorter (less than 40min), and the big
Porsche, Ferrari and Alfa sportscar prototypes competed there.
Insane, racing through villages at an average of 120km/h with cars
that could go over 300km/h at Le Mans, like a 512 S.
(See http://privat.swol.de/thomaskrimmer/targa.htm (in german) and
http://privat.swol.de/thomaskrimmer/racecar2.htm to get a taste of the
cars - and a public street race that makes modern racetracks look like
Kindergarten)
--
Matthias Flatt
http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/track_us.htm#Roosevelt Raceway
Mother of all Mickey Mouse Tracks in the World. Europeans refused to go to
America just for that
Tapani
: The Mille Miglia "circuit" would be a real challenge even for future
: hardware: I guesstimate a GPL track.dat would be about 900MB big,
: based on the figures of the 14mile & 13MB nurburg.dat.
: The Targa Florio should be possible - but not in a 1930 GP sim.
: The track back then was very long (AFAIR 90miles, laptimes over 2
: hours), and mostly gravel roads through mountains and villages.
: That would be considered Rallye today.
: And it was not used by GP cars, only sports cars.
Well, it remains to be seen how accurate they are, but Rally Championship
will squash hundreds of kilometers of photo-realistic data onto one CD.
Nobody would expect every bush to be correct, as long as the road is
accurate and the environment feels right, with a few key pieces of scenery
in the right locations.
Stephen
Yep the Carrera Panamerica. A race that is still held, but now regulated.
It was banned for about 20years after the race was becoming too dangerous,
with tragedies after tragedies each year. But now it has come back to life,
but regulates by a sporting association.
http://www.lacarrera.com/
If you want to know about the race, try to locate "Carrera Panamerica", a
video made by Pink Floyd, around 1990. It has great music and never heard
before by Pink Floyd, since two of the band's members are big racing fans.
Nick Mason and David Gilmour. They both own plenty of old sports cars,
especially Nick, and they both raced in the event. David Gilmour almost
lost his life in a big car accident. It's mostly a closed race around
Central America. You have 2types of event. Some time on closed circuit,
who are very dangerous (you know.. with a pit on one side and no guard
rails), other times it's on public road with _normal cars_ around you. You
won't get stopped by the Police if you are a racer, but those guys are
racing at 90mph on public road, going into blind corners and cutting the
opposite lane as their apex without knowing if there is a big truck coming
on them. A bunch of crazy freaks, IMHO :) But it's an incredible video to
find, I recommend it to everybody, especially with Pink Floyd music :)
Would give anything to have a sim from that :)
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Arne you have an idea of how long this circuit is ? It looks almost like
Monaco, I mean the same pattern, but in a very slight different layout.
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
> > Montlhry (http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/montlhe2.jpg)
> Arne you have an idea of how long this circuit is ? It looks almost like
> Monaco, I mean the same pattern, but in a very slight different layout.
The 30s version was 12.5km/7.8miles long so quite bit longer than Monaco
:-)
The banked oval was 1.55 miles.
Not sure if the link I gave was for the 12km track though, it might have
been one of the variants from the 50s (when it was around 8kms long).
--
Arne Martin
Exactly... thanks Bruce.
Jan.
------
>Carrera?
><snip>
Like I said, crazy, but perfect sim fodder if you ask me. Obviously too
dangerous to repeat in it's original form, but in a sim only pride gets
hurt. Dave, Randy.... you guys listening?? ;-))
Thanks for the link Francois.
Jan.
------
><snip>>Yep the Carrera Panamerica. A race that is still held, but now regulated.
>It was banned for about 20years after the race was becoming too dangerous,
>with tragedies after tragedies each year. But now it has come back to life,
>but regulates by a sporting association.
><snip>
A pleasure.
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Quoted text (7 lines)
> Exactly... thanks Bruce. > Jan. > ------ > >Carrera? > ><snip>That struck me as an extremely odd thing to do.
From a marketing exercise they have chosen some odd circuits and an odd
period.
Far better to have set the time frame in the last two years before
WW2....the period 1937 - 1939 saw some awsome machinery from Mercedes and
Auto Union, with Alfa Romeo*** on by the skin of its teeth.
Well....let's hope that the developers prove us all wrong.
> > > I still have this sinking feeling (after looking at the screen shots) that
this game
> will be judged arcade no matter what. Nothing beats the pre-first imaginary
> impression of sporadic screenshots :)
> But why did they have to choose an era when Monza was during the sickest ? A 90
> degrees turn and a chichane in the banking :( Noone seems to have the guts to give
> us the real banked Monza layout.
> --
> Olav K. Malmin
> remove spam when replying
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Quoted text (11 lines)
> > > what we will see will be more arcade than sim. > > > I hope, of course, that my pessimism is proved totally groundless! > > Yes me too :-( And I really doubt if I will buy it from what it looks > > like now... > > But it's always fun to speculate on what tracks we might get to try our > > hands on :-) > Do anyone know anything about a releasedate ? > And yeah, it is rather funny to speculate, but I have this feeling thatOn Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:23:48 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"
It should be an interesting data point for the "GPL: It didn't sell
because of difficulty/accessability or lack of contemporary interest"
debate.
"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark
Quoted text (8 lines)
>That struck me as an extremely odd thing to do. >From a marketing exercise they have chosen some odd circuits and an odd >period. >Far better to have set the time frame in the last two years before >WW2....the period 1937 - 1939 saw some awsome machinery from Mercedes and >Auto Union, with Alfa Romeo*** on by the skin of its teeth. >Well....let's hope that the developers prove us all wrong.Hey, the German Grand Prix in 37 was of cause held at the Nurburgring!!
And they give us that stupid Avus track :((((
I think the screenshots that were published show us the glorious swiss
Bremgarten track at the gates of Bern. :) (Well, at least I hope so :)
-Thorsten
Bruce Kennewell schrieb:
Yes......perhaps this will provide ammunition for another exercise in the
on-going debate over what sells and what doesn't!
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