GPL:Faster with the "Force" ?

Just curious if people are driving faster and improving their lap times with the addition of force feed back now that you can "feel" what the car is doing. Or is it just something that makes the game more enjoyable but serves no real purpose in improving your driving. I assume if it improves your driving this is reflected in lower lap times. Nige. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

It depends, If you're a longtime racer within GPL (without using FF) you have already adapted yourself to not feeling any forces and are anticipating on what you see and hear only. Those guys (women) find it hard to suddenly switch over to FF and are complaining about the fact they are slower with FF. I think it's only a matter of time they also have that good (maybe even better) anticipation with FF and do indeed improve their laptimes. On the other hand if you're rather novice (w.r.t. GPL) you're less biased towards non-FF racing and you immediately benefit from the FF-effects modelled in GPL. I consider myself as being a novice racer and did improve my laptimes (it's not revolutionary but nevertheless...). But.....the most improtant fact: Once you've driven with FF you really don't like the absence of force (when reverting to 1.0) anymore. It simply makes it feel so much more realistic (though i must admit I've never driven race cars in real life so what am I talking about :)). The above of course IMO. Jan.

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> Just curious if people are driving faster and improving their lap times > with the addition of force feed back now that you can "feel" what the > car is doing. Or is it just something that makes the game more > enjoyable but serves no real purpose in improving your driving. I > assume if it improves your driving this is reflected in lower lap times. > Nige.

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> It depends, > If you're a longtime racer within GPL (without using FF) you have already > adapted yourself to not feeling any forces and are anticipating on what you > see and hear only. Those guys (women) find it hard to suddenly switch over to > FF and are complaining about the fact they are slower with FF. I think it's > only a matter of time they also have that good (maybe even > better) anticipation with FF and do indeed improve their laptimes. > On the other hand if you're rather novice (w.r.t. GPL) you're less biased > towards non-FF racing and you immediately benefit from the FF-effects modelled > in GPL. I consider myself as being a novice racer and did improve my laptimes > (it's not revolutionary but nevertheless...).

Good point, I did not improve at Monza, 1.30.xx PB (yeah, I DO struggle to get that sub 1.30 lap in the eagle), and I didn't improve much there. But at Spa I bettered my time with 5-10 seconds. The biggest improvement with FF as I see it, is that you car race much more concistently. It is much easier to save the car if you***up in a corner, so a mistake doesn't cost you 15 seconds and a Shift-R. The problem right now is the slo-mo effect, so laptimes aren't really worth anything. Going back to 1.0 <Shudder> Well, I do like SCGT better w/o FF because with FF the framerate hit is too bad. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

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> > It depends, > > If you're a longtime racer within GPL (without using FF) you have already > > adapted yourself to not feeling any forces and are anticipating on what you > > see and hear only. Those guys (women) find it hard to suddenly switch over to > > FF and are complaining about the fact they are slower with FF. I think it's > > only a matter of time they also have that good (maybe even > > better) anticipation with FF and do indeed improve their laptimes. > > On the other hand if you're rather novice (w.r.t. GPL) you're less biased > > towards non-FF racing and you immediately benefit from the FF-effects modelled > > in GPL. I consider myself as being a novice racer and did improve my laptimes > > (it's not revolutionary but nevertheless...). > Good point, I did not improve at Monza, 1.30.xx PB (yeah, I DO struggle to get > that sub 1.30 lap in the eagle), and I didn't improve much there. But at Spa > I bettered my time with 5-10 seconds. > The biggest improvement with FF as I see it, is that you car race much more > concistently. It is much easier to save the car if you***up in a corner, > so a mistake doesn't cost you 15 seconds and a Shift-R.

I agree with you there - I was a bit slower than my best hotlap but much more consistent. I only have a cheapo FF wheel, and I couldn't really tell whether the force-feedback was true-to-life or not, but it certainly gave me more feedback which I could use to work out what was going on. It wasn't a conscious process, but I find I just kind of learn what "feels right" at each point on the track, and with FF there are more cues to get hold of. Trouble is the wheel was so notchy I got fed up with it and went back to the TSW, which feels beautifully smooth. Perhaps I'll get a Logitech Wheel - anyone know where I can get one in the UK?

I find it much easier driving with force feedback, I get a much better feel of what the car is doing. Especially the Lesmo corners on Monza, the Masta Kink at Spa and the hairpin at Monaco are much easier to take with ff. I drive with a lot more confidence, and like to other people too, much more consistent. Even if I would be slower with FF I'd still use it, it just feels great! Andre

Although I don't think the "Force" makes you necessarily faster per say especially not initially as you get used to it, what I *have* noticed is that the "Force" (properly adjusted so you don't have to fight the wheel constantly) actually does a very good job making me much more consistent. FF really really helps with communicating to you just what the car is doing, you feel the suspension load up, and the tire starting to lose grip, at which point you can ease up on the throttle and prevent loss of control direction on the tire, with FF you can control the car to correct problems as they start instead of, without FF sawing at the wheel wildly to fight what the car is doing without as much of an idea of why the car is behaving the way it is. Also when the tires do lose control of direction (i.e. spins), if you ease up on the throttle, the "Force" of the wheel will turn the wheel to the position where the tire grip direction points, as the tire regains grip, this is hard to explain but really helps in saving the car on those times when you do spin, it is similar to when your tires lose traction in a real car, if you don't have power-steering the tires will point your steering in the direction that they need when they regain grip. One very good example for me where I think the "Force" has really improved my feel is in the Monaco chicane after the tunnel, I raced there in a 30 lap League race recently and didn't spin in the chicane once, this was due to the "Force" letting me know just how close the tires were to losing grip, where before FF I normally had a 80% chance of making it cleanly through that crazy chicane. Yes indeed I love the Force Feedback in GPL 1.1 Papyrus has done an amazing job with the FF despite the other small quirks 1.1 introduced. Finally, indeed yes I am getting faster with FF, but this is due to understanding more what the car is doing and *controlling* it's motion as it starts to step out of line, and spending less time *fighting* the car motion with the wheel as I did pre FF. Call me a Papy FF religious fanatic :-) Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

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>Just curious if people are driving faster and improving their lap times >with the addition of force feed back now that you can "feel" what the >car is doing. Or is it just something that makes the game more >enjoyable but serves no real purpose in improving your driving. I >assume if it improves your driving this is reflected in lower lap times. >Nige. >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

<snip> I don't have a FF wheel because I'm still figuring out which one to buy. My question about GPL FF: I've read in numerous posts that you can feel the weight of the car, i.e. steering becomes lighter when the front wheels lose grip. O.K. so much about understeering. But how does oversteering feel ? I've driven a little bit go-kart (just for fun) and I noticed, that if you get oversteer at corner entry, the wheel almost forces you to opposite lock.You don't have much to do to catch the kart, it does it almost itself. It is quite understandable for me why this happens: Because the weight is on the front, the front tires will stick to their direction and the rear comes out, so you will have a force on the wheel in direction of opposite lock. Is that the effect that you mean? Is that even noticeable in a *real* race car? If so, is it modeled in GPL? Thanx Peter Vienna, Austria

>Just curious if people are driving faster and improving their lap times >with the addition of force feed back now that you can "feel" what the >car is doing. Yes, both faster and more consistent. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

Yes, exactly, the force on the wheel actually moves the wheel to the angle that the front tires "want" as they regain grip. I've driven go-karts too and it does feel very similar (with the exception of no lower back pain from the G forces in the corners :-) It really is pretty amazing how it works, my hat is off to Randy and Papy for having pulled it off so well. Note: this is with a LWFF wheel with the settings tweaked so that they concentrate on "feeling" detail through the wheel and not building arm muscles by fighting the wheel the whole way around the track. --John

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>I don't have a FF wheel because I'm still figuring out which one to buy. >My question about GPL FF: I've read in numerous posts that you can feel the >weight of the car, i.e. steering becomes lighter when the front wheels lose >grip. >O.K. so much about understeering. But how does oversteering feel ? I've >driven a little bit go-kart (just for fun) and I noticed, that if you get >oversteer at corner entry, the wheel almost forces you to opposite lock.You >don't have much to do to catch the kart, it does it almost itself. It is >quite understandable for me why this happens: Because the weight is on the >front, the front tires will stick to their direction and the rear comes out, >so you will have a force on the wheel in direction of opposite lock. Is that >the effect that you mean? Is that even noticeable in a *real* race car? If >so, is it modeled in GPL? >Thanx >Peter >Vienna, Austria

Faster: no, more consistent: you bet your a**. ;-) Jan. ------ >Just curious if people are driving faster and improving their lap times ><snip>

I'm not doing so well with force feedback - I'm a second slower, and I fall off the track a *lot* more. I guess that is a form of consistency... Kevin Caldwell Calgary, Canada LWFF, CH pedals, lots of different FF set-ups... > Faster: no, more consistent: you bet your a**. ;-) > Jan. > ------ > >Just curious if people are driving faster and improving their lap times

LMAO!! Kevin Caldwell wrote

>I'm not doing so well with force feedback - I'm a second slower, and I fall >off the track a *lot* more. >I guess that is a form of consistency... >LWFF, CH pedals, lots of different FF set-ups... Reduce the amount of force. A lot. My first day with a LWFF I used a setup with too much force for me, and kept spinning. I made the force a lot more subtle until I got used to it, and then gradually ramped it back up. Also, certain car setups don't seem to work well with FF. In particular, too much front toe-out can lead to FF oscillations on the straights. A more stable setup is easier to drive straight with FF than without it, as the steering realistically gets heavier with speed. -- spamgard(tm): To email me, put "geek" in your Subject line.

I've tried many different FF set-ups, including very low force ones which is what I have been trying for the last 3 weeks. I also have played around with set-ups quite a bit. For me, FF just slows me down and makes me fall off the track. It's not like no FF is over-boosted power steering, and FF is rack and pinion. I don't find the feedback useful. Kevin Caldwell

I just did my best two laps ever at Watkins Glen - with or without FF enabled. With 1.0 and no FF, I could hit mid 104's. Tonight, I did back to back, a 104.19 and 104.11. Having Doug Adkins and George Sandman in the race helped :) Yes, you can be faster with the Force - the ACT Labs Force RS! -- Pat Dotson >I've tried many different FF set-ups, including very low force ones which is >what I have been trying for the last 3 weeks. I also have played around with >set-ups quite a bit. >For me, FF just slows me down and makes me fall off the track. It's not like >no FF is over-boosted power steering, and FF is rack and pinion. I don't >find the feedback useful. >Kevin Caldwell >> Reduce the amount of force. A lot. My first day with a >> LWFF I used a setup with too much force for me, and kept >> spinning. I made the force a lot more subtle until I got >> used to it, and then gradually ramped it back up. >> Also, certain car setups don't seem to work well with FF. >> In particular, too much front toe-out can lead to FF >> oscillations on the straights. A more stable setup >> is easier to drive straight with FF than without it, >> as the steering realistically gets heavier with speed.

: Faster: no, more consistent: you bet your a**. ;-) I found that one problem to getting up to speed with force-feedback is that I could really feel a four wheel drift and it is a bit of a scary "out of control" feeling. The wheel's pretty much "dead". I found that I was insinctively backing off in this situation because I was thinking "Oh shit I'm going to die" rather than "Ah, four wheel drift, I'm pretty much on the limit here". Once the FF is set up correct, four wheel drift is sooo noticeable that I found it was scaring me into backing off. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html