911 Oversteering?

I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports Car GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's cars so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause here in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I thinking of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u actually knew something about the cars. Schumacher

Quoted text (8 lines)

> I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports Car > GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about > Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's cars > so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause here > in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I thinking > of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars > don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u actually > knew something about the cars.

I have no idea if a race modified 911 has a lot of oversteer, but let me assure you, that any 911 up to the latest version, WILL sooner or later show you why most cars don't have the engines mounted in the rear, at least if you drive it the way sports cars should be driven, there are certain laws of physics that apply, that no amount of German hi-tech engineering can eliminate -- Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

>I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports Car >GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about >Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's cars >so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. Er... the most famous form of oversteer in the world has to be 911 power off oversteer. :))) Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

You are obviously not a physics genious. KSB

: I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports Car : GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about : Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's cars : so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause here : in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I thinking : of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars : don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u actually : knew something about the cars. Perhaps it would be better if "u" thought a little bit before spouting off. Porsche has been refining the 911 since its inception to try to tame the inherent oversteer of the chassis. They are pretty much there with the latest generation, partly as a result of suspension design, partly because the layout is tending more towards mid-engine than rear engine. I live in Europe at the moment. I see a lot of 911s. It doesn't necessarily mean I know about them. However, I am a mechanical engineer with a keen interest, perhaps passion, for 911s of all ages. An early 911 will snap-oversteer in a second if the driver is not precise. A mid-80's 911 will oversteer on trailing throttle without a moment's hesitation. A Carrera 4 is neutral, due to the AWD, until provoked with the throttle, at which point it will also oversteer. At their limit all 911s can easily be induced to oversteer. Porsche has not made it "impossible" to oversteer in a 911. I'm glad you are thinking of buying a 911. I imagine Matchbox has a fine assortment of colours for you to choose from, Schumi. Stephen

U guys obviously know nothing about cars and u are probably dumb little 15 year olds trying to act tough. And what the *** is this business about rear engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? Ofcourse a 911 will oversteer if u force it to, but in a turn it will understeer 99% percent of the time. Anyways from when on do cars oversteer at 200km/h when attacking corners? I hardly ever see F1 cars oversteering, they spin out quite often but when u have 800+ bhp it's not hard to spin out in 1,2 or even 3 gear. And TOCA2 is so fake. The cars oversteer ALL the time and countering it is so easy. In TOCA2 u can attack a corner at full speed cause, the worst that will happen is that your car will oversteer, and than u put opposite lock and the back just grips back right away (GPL is much better but there still is too much oversteer), trust me in real life it's not like that. Schumacher > > I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports Car > > GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about > > Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's > cars > > so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause here > > in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I > thinking > > of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars > > don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u actually > > knew something about the cars. > You are obviously not a physics genious. > KSB

Quoted text (13 lines)

> U guys obviously know nothing about cars and u are probably dumb little 15 > year olds trying to act tough. And what the *** is this business about rear > engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? Ofcourse > a 911 will oversteer if u force it to, but in a turn it will understeer 99% > percent of the time. Anyways from when on do cars oversteer at 200km/h when > attacking corners? I hardly ever see F1 cars oversteering, they spin out > quite often but when u have 800+ bhp it's not hard to spin out in 1,2 or > even 3 gear. And TOCA2 is so fake. The cars oversteer ALL the time and > countering it is so easy. In TOCA2 u can attack a corner at full speed > cause, the worst that will happen is that your car will oversteer, and than > u put opposite lock and the back just grips back right away (GPL is much > better but there still is too much oversteer), trust me in real life it's > not like that.

Isn't it just great with such entertainment at the end of the day :)) -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

Have u ever oversteered a real car? I take my 528 to the track every weekend and I might not know about the chasis settings of cars but I can drive on tracks and for real, and since your last name sounds English (manchester united coach), I guess you know about Snetterton, right? Where u get to drive a F335, a Viper, a 911, and a Lotus Esprit V8 for 30 minutes each. Well i happened to have saved my money and went there. And I did drive the 911, and no it did not oversteer. Ofcourse it oversteered, but only rearly Schumacher > : I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports Car > : GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about > : Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's cars > : so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause here > : in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I thinking > : of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars > : don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u actually

Quoted text (21 lines)

> : knew something about the cars. > Perhaps it would be better if "u" thought a little bit before spouting > off. Porsche has been refining the 911 since its inception to try to tame > the inherent oversteer of the chassis. They are pretty much there with > the latest generation, partly as a result of suspension design, partly > because the layout is tending more towards mid-engine than rear engine. I > live in Europe at the moment. I see a lot of 911s. It doesn't > necessarily mean I know about them. However, I am a mechanical engineer > with a keen interest, perhaps passion, for 911s of all ages. An early 911 > will snap-oversteer in a second if the driver is not precise. A mid-80's > 911 will oversteer on trailing throttle without a moment's hesitation. A > Carrera 4 is neutral, due to the AWD, until provoked with the throttle, at > which point it will also oversteer. At their limit all 911s can easily be > induced to oversteer. Porsche has not made it "impossible" to oversteer > in a 911. > I'm glad you are thinking of buying a 911. I imagine Matchbox has a fine > assortment of colours for you to choose from, Schumi. > Stephen

Did you ever hear of the PSM system incorporated into the '99 models of the 911? I don't think so. It eliminates oversteer. End of story. That is German high-tech genius. You guys are so ignorant it is hard to believe. martin > > I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports Car > > GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about > > Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's cars > > so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause here > > in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I thinking > > of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars > > don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u actually

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > knew something about the cars. > I have no idea if a race modified 911 has a lot of oversteer, but let me > assure you, that any 911 up to the latest version, WILL sooner or later > show you why most cars don't have the engines mounted in the rear, at > least if you drive it the way sports cars should be driven, there are > certain laws of physics that apply, that no amount of German hi-tech > engineering can eliminate > -- > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

Why wouldn't a 60's open wheel racecar oversteer? They were built to be a little over-responsive and the tire, suspension, everything were primitive compared to today's cars. Not to start an argument, but I think that 60s open wheelers did oversteer a lot. Take a look at any 1960's race footage, you'll see a lot of*** the back end out in the turns. You don't see that today at all in sports car racing pretty much, because they've taken measures to reduce that oversteer to almost inexistant. Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited

I ve the F1 supersignal digital TV, you choose within 7 channels, (Mosaic, Main, Leader, Action, On Board, Pits, Data) with 2 audio channels (Commentators and Ambient Sound) I usually turn it to On Board when nothing serius is happenning (ie: at the beginning of the Qualif, etc ...) and chose Original Audio, I can tell you, F1 cars are 'always' oversteering ... btw: someone interested in the Hakkinen crash at hockenheim On Board, with Ambient Sound ? ;) I will 'MPEG' it McKafre De La Rosa

: U guys obviously know nothing about cars and u are probably dumb little 15 : year olds trying to act tough. And what the *** is this business about rear : engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s mid-enginerd : McLaren F1s mid-engined : CLK-GTRs? mid-engined : attacking corners? I hardly ever see F1 cars oversteering, they spin out : quite often but when u have 800+ bhp it's not hard to spin out in 1,2 or mid-engined, and entirely dependent on aerodynamic balance. Same with CART. A few twists of the wings, and you have understeer. A few the other way and you have oversteer. When you finally get through high-school, maybe put your nose into a few physics books, find out what a polar moment of inertia is, then come back and discuss this topic. For now, your dependence on whatever you read in the latest newsstand magazine is showing worse than the shiny ass on a five year old suit. Stephen

: Did you ever hear of the PSM system incorporated into the '99 models of the : 911? I don't think so. It eliminates oversteer. End of story. That is : German high-tech genius. You think racing 911s have the PSM left in? PSM, traction control, ESP, whatever you want to call the various systems from BMW, Mercedes, Porsche or Chevrolet (Corvette), they are all there to keep people from getting into trouble in everyday driving. Guess what? They all have an off switch. Guess which position that switch is in when it's time for spirited driving. It is hardly "german high-tech genius" to use a simple combination of selective braking and traction control to alter the handling characteristics of a car. Everyone is doing it now in the industry. : You guys are so ignorant it is hard to believe. And you are a troll with an outrageously large ego. Stephen

<ranting snipped> LOL! Charlie (not to be confused with the other) Schumacher

: Have u ever oversteered a real car? I take my 528 to the track every weekend : and I might not know about the chasis settings of cars but I can drive on : tracks and for real, and since your last name sounds English (manchester : united coach), I guess you know about Snetterton, right? Where u get to : drive a F335, a Viper, a 911, and a Lotus Esprit V8 for 30 minutes each. : Well i happened to have saved my money and went there. And I did drive the : 911, and no it did not oversteer. Ofcourse it oversteered, but only rearly Canadian. Living in Switzerland. No interest in professional football. Porsches that I have driven include a late 60's 912, mid-70's Carrera, mid-80's turbo and a Boxster. Understeer to neutral on corner entry with a careful foot on the throttle, oversteer if you lifted, and don't even think of braking. If they've tamed this with the '99 and its lovely electronics, then that's a step forward for public road safety, but it's taken away the one thing I enjoyed about the 911. As for your last point, I can't imagine a car oversteering any other way but "rearly". I imagine your 528 understeers "frontly". Have a nice day Stephen

Was about to say the same thing so I'll just say "ditto" M

UHHHH? When did i say my 528 oversteers frontly? And I don't know what the *** all of this mild understeer shit is, cause I don't buy a car dictonaries and learn all of the terms right off it, but I do know how to drive, and as soon as I get my 911 I am going to get it tuned up and enter an ameteur championship. (what the *** are u talking about? I finished high school and I went to University and studied economics and I have a job. So why the *** are u telling me to finish high school and go buy books on physics? If u go ask the real Schumacher he probably won't half all of the stuff u know about cars and it's physics but he's the best ***ing driver in the world much better than one of those stupid indianopolis 500 losers that race around an oval track for 500 laps.) Schumacher > : Have u ever oversteered a real car? I take my 528 to the track every weekend > : and I might not know about the chasis settings of cars but I can drive on > : tracks and for real, and since your last name sounds English (manchester > : united coach), I guess you know about Snetterton, right? Where u get to > : drive a F335, a Viper, a 911, and a Lotus Esprit V8 for 30 minutes each. > : Well i happened to have saved my money and went there. And I did drive the > : 911, and no it did not oversteer. Ofcourse it oversteered, but only rearly

Quoted text (13 lines)

> Canadian. Living in Switzerland. No interest in professional football. > Porsches that I have driven include a late 60's 912, mid-70's Carrera, > mid-80's turbo and a Boxster. Understeer to neutral on corner entry with > a careful foot on the throttle, oversteer if you lifted, and don't even > think of braking. If they've tamed this with the '99 and its lovely > electronics, then that's a step forward for public road safety, but it's > taken away the one thing I enjoyed about the 911. > As for your last point, I can't imagine a car oversteering any other way > but "rearly". I imagine your 528 understeers "frontly". > Have a nice day > Stephen

> Did you ever hear of the PSM system incorporated into the '99 models of the > 911? I don't think so. It eliminates oversteer. End of story. That is > German high-tech genius. It may be genious, but it doesn't eliminate the laws of physics, at a certain point the laws of physics will take over, but feel free to take that 99 model 911 of yours an ignore those laws if you feel like it, your choice Why am I ignorant ? Because I've actually studied car suspension and physics, and build and developed some decent setups for my own roadcars by trial and error Only a truly ignorant person would overlook the way 911's have handled since day one, Porsche have used over 30 years to develop the suspension into something that can take advantage of the rear engined layout, it has certain advatages, and a experienced Porsche driver knows how to use this to his advantage, but less experienced drivers have discovered that although the 911 can be driven faster than most cars on a twisty road, once you get beyond a certain point, or the driver does something mid-turn that he shouldn't (like lifting the throttle or braking), it will show you where you just came from in a split second The PSM might mask/reduce this tendency to the point where the average driver might not get into trouble, but it can never eliminate the laws of physics my friend, and even if you were right, this would only apply to the 99 models, one model year in 35, would you then say that a 911 has lift off oversteer or not ? -- Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

: UHHHH? When did i say my 528 oversteers frontly? And I don't know what the It was a play on words. Obviously I'm not debating with someone up to the task. : and learn all of the terms right off it, but I do know how to drive, and as : soon as I get my 911 I am going to get it tuned up and enter an ameteur : championship. Have fun. Make sure you keep the PSM switched on... As for the tuning, if you are at all serious about this, you'll be looking for a GT3. No tuning necessary, and in fact none allowed in a lot of the spec series. : (what the *** are u talking about? I finished high school and : I went to University and studied economics and I have a job. So why the : *** are u telling me to finish high school and go buy books on physics? Perhaps you missed something the first time around. : about cars and it's physics but he's [Schumacher] the best ***ing : driver in the world I imagine he knows a thing or two about drop-throttle oversteer... : much better than one of those stupid indianopolis 500 losers that race : around an oval track for 500 laps.) I commend you on your seamless transition into an entirely new troll. Also on your creative use of the word "***" throughout our correspondence. If the economics job ever dries up, I'm sure that "u" will be able to hook up the artist-formerly-known-as-Prince as a lyricist. As a discussion of suspension theory, this thread has run its course for me. As a flame war, it as over before it started. Have a nice day Schu. Stephen p.s. don't forget the PSM... I have a feeling it will save your bacon.

If you presume a 911 doesn't oversteer you'll be in for a surprise, every race driver knows it's hard to drive a 911 fast because of it's rear mounted engine. As for a F50, McLaren F1 and a CLK-GTR those aren't rear engined, but middle mounted. The engine is in front of the rear axle on those cars, so please gain some knowledge before you say things like that. I've driven three kinds of 911, namely a 993 Carrera 2, a 993 RS and a 993 Turbo (with over 500Bhp). The last one isn't reflective because it's four wheel driven. Every racing car understeers when you go into a corner far too fast, so that's not the way to check the balance. Just go in nice and easy and go on a balanced throttle to your clipping point. If you do this on the limit you'll feel the back end of a 911 wanting to step out. If you would take it any quicker it would start to oversteer. The last thing you want to do at that stage is too lift off the throttle, a 911 will spin like hell and is very difficult to recover from it. As for F1 cars, they're usually setup for some understeer, mostly the oversteer you see there is throttle induced which isn't real oversteer. However do you remember two years ago at Silverstone? Hakkinen was right on the pace and he was trying to beat Villeneuve for pole. On his third attempt he was straight on the limit through Copse you could beautifully see the back end jumping a bit, that was pure oversteer (at 250k). > <ranting snipped> > > I'm glad you are thinking of buying a 911. I imagine Matchbox has a fine

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > assortment of colours for you to choose from, Schumi. > > Stephen > LOL! > Charlie (not to be confused with the other) Schumacher

Hi schumi! Have you ever stopped to consider that you just weren,t driving fast enough. A lot of people with a big mouth are making up for not having very big balls. Steve >Have u ever oversteered a real car? I take my 528 to the track every weekend

Quoted text (8 lines)

>and I might not know about the chasis settings of cars but I can drive on >tracks and for real, and since your last name sounds English (manchester >united coach), I guess you know about Snetterton, right? Where u get to >drive a F335, a Viper, a 911, and a Lotus Esprit V8 for 30 minutes each. >Well i happened to have saved my money and went there. And I did drive the >911, and no it did not oversteer. Ofcourse it oversteered, but only rearly >Schumacher

Couple points: 1) Think before posting. Most folks try to do this with a good amount of success 2) If you are American, Canadian, British, Australian or any other English speaking country, then shut the hell up and go back to school and actually learn the following: a) grammar b) vocabulary c) how to play nicely with everyone else in the sandbox. 3) If you aren't from an English speaking country, then I know many of people with better English from places that dont speak English at all. 4) Pay attention and read the posts before spouting off. Several of the people who posted have said they have either a) track time in a race-preped 911 aka Jan Verschueren whom I'd trust a hell of a lot more than a snot nosed kid b) various different vintages of 911 or other Porsches c) They actually know the difference between a mid-engine and true rear-engine car (as pointed out all those cars you mentioned, including F1 and CART cars are mid-engined machines. Heck even a top fuel dragster is a mid-engine machine. What does that mean? It means the engine sits in front of the rear axle. Porsche 911 is a rear-engine car because the engine actually sits on/right behind the rear axle. Pretty plain definitions aren't they?) Anyways, sorry folks about the rank. :?

On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:40:10 +0200, These cars are not rear-engine. Bullshit. F1 cars are not 'rear engined'. You're an idiot. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com

On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:39:03 +0200, LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com

On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:54:54 +0200, LOL!!!! Psstt.. come closer. If you drive a normal 911 at speed and enter a corner too fast, and you lift your foot from the throttle, the nearest telephone pole will be the target of the REAR of your car. Son, I have driven more Porsches than you have years on this planet. I have driven them in race trim. I have raced them. I have owned 3 of them, beginning with an original 1953 356. My son-in-law has a twin-turbo, ~600hp, 930 that I get to play with from time-to-time. Be careful. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com

On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:31:39 +0200, Apparently.... -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com

All it is is a fancy traction control. And no, it doesn't ELIMINATE oversteer, it just does what a guy who knows how to drive a 911 fast would do when it oversteers. Anyone here played the original Need For Speed? That 911 would stick like glue until you lifted in the turns, just like a real one... I've been around 911s daily for over half of my life (my dad owned a '73 911 from '85 to '94, I was born in '83) and sporadically since then (a friend of his has a '72 911, now has a mid-80s turbo...it's fast :) and I've seen them race at an autocross event enough to know that 911s ARE LOOSE. The new ones may not be as much so, but it's a fact of life. (One that I want to experience after I get my license :) -- Kirk Lane ICQ: 28171652 BRT #187 "I read dead Russian authors volumes at a time I write everything down except what's on my mind 'Cause my greatest fear is the sucking sound And then I know I'll never get back out" -'Narcolepsy', Third Eye Blind

did i say they were? Schumacher

Quoted text (11 lines)

> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:40:10 +0200, > > And what the *** is this business about rear > >engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? > These cars are not rear-engine. > > Ofcourse > >a 911 will oversteer if u force it to, but in a turn it will understeer

99%

Quoted text (15 lines)

> >percent of the time. > Bullshit. > >Anyways from when on do cars oversteer at 200km/h when > >attacking corners? I hardly ever see F1 cars oversteering, they spin out > >quite often but when u have 800+ bhp it's not hard to spin out in 1,2 or > >even 3 gear. > F1 cars are not 'rear engined'. > You're an idiot. > -- > * rrevved at mindspring dot com

> did i say they were? "U guys obviously know nothing about cars and u are probably dumb little 15 year olds trying to act tough. And what the *** is this business about rear engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? " Anyone will interpret this as you describing those cars as rear-engined. KSB

Quoted text (23 lines)

> Schumacher > > On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:40:10 +0200, > > > And what the *** is this business about rear > > >engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? > > These cars are not rear-engine. > > > Ofcourse > > >a 911 will oversteer if u force it to, but in a turn it will understeer > 99% > > >percent of the time. > > Bullshit. > > >Anyways from when on do cars oversteer at 200km/h when > > >attacking corners? I hardly ever see F1 cars oversteering, they spin

out > > >quite often but when u have 800+ bhp it's not hard to spin out in 1,2 or

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > >even 3 gear. > > F1 cars are not 'rear engined'. > > You're an idiot. > > -- > > * rrevved at mindspring dot com

On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:40:10 +0200, "schumacher" >U guys obviously know nothing about cars and u are probably dumb little 15 >year olds trying to act tough. And what the *** is this business about rear >engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? Ofcourse >a 911 will oversteer if u force it to, but in a turn it will understeer 99% >percent of the time. Daddy's road-going car will oversteer 99% of the time because car manufacturers don't want lead-footed ham-fisted customers killing themselves - don't make the mistake of basing a premise on that though. Even in road-going form a 911 will bite you if not treated with respect, and lift-off oversteer has been an infamous Porsche trait ever since the 911's birth. With recent models and particularly with the introduction of computer assisted traction, braking and steering this is much improved on the road going models. Cheers! John

Yes. To quote (edited): "And what the **** is this business about rear engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? " That does imply that you believe that F50s, McLaren F1s and CLK-GTRs are rear-engined cars. And that implication has been apparent to everyone who has posted in response to that statement so far.

Quoted text (25 lines)

> did i say they were? > Schumacher > > On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:40:10 +0200, > > > And what the *** is this business about rear > > >engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? > > These cars are not rear-engine. > > > Ofcourse > > >a 911 will oversteer if u force it to, but in a turn it will understeer > 99% > > >percent of the time. > > Bullshit. > > >Anyways from when on do cars oversteer at 200km/h when > > >attacking corners? I hardly ever see F1 cars oversteering, they spin

out > > >quite often but when u have 800+ bhp it's not hard to spin out in 1,2 or

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > >even 3 gear. > > F1 cars are not 'rear engined'. > > You're an idiot. > > -- > > * rrevved at mindspring dot com

On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:20:23 +0200, Yes.

Quoted text (27 lines)

>> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:40:10 +0200, >> > And what the *** is this business about rear >> >engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? >> These cars are not rear-engine. >> > Ofcourse >> >a 911 will oversteer if u force it to, but in a turn it will understeer >99% >> >percent of the time. >> Bullshit. >> >Anyways from when on do cars oversteer at 200km/h when >> >attacking corners? I hardly ever see F1 cars oversteering, they spin out >> >quite often but when u have 800+ bhp it's not hard to spin out in 1,2 or >> >even 3 gear. >> F1 cars are not 'rear engined'. >> You're an idiot. >> -- >> * rrevved at mindspring dot com

-- * rrevved at mindspring dot com

I said he was a troll with an oversized ego from the first note, but it's still been fun. Stephen : x-no-archive: yes : Hey Guys! G U Y S !!! : For those that haven't noticed yet: : T H I S I S A T R O L L ! : Please treat accordingly. : R.

How can you become a race driver when you don't know the difference between understeer and oversteer?? Did any of you ever have had oversteer on the front of the car? hhhmmm.... not me.... not anyone.... MiXer a.k.a Sjon Stigter >UHHHH? When did i say my 528 oversteers frontly? And I don't know what the >*** all of this mild understeer shit is, cause I don't buy a car >dictonaries >and learn all of the terms right off it, but I do know how to drive, and as >soon as I get my 911 I am going to get it tuned up and enter an ameteur >championship. (what the *** are u talking about? I finished high school and

Quoted text (18 lines)

>I went to University and studied economics and I have a job. So why the >*** are u telling me to finish high school and go buy books on physics? If >u go ask the real Schumacher he probably won't half all of the stuff u know >about cars and it's physics but he's the best ***ing driver in the world >much better than one of those stupid indianopolis 500 losers that race >around an oval track for 500 laps.) >Schumacher >> : Have u ever oversteered a real car? I take my 528 to the track every >weekend >> : and I might not know about the chasis settings of cars but I can drive >on >> : tracks and for real, and since your last name sounds English

(manchester >> : united coach), I guess you know about Snetterton, right? Where u get to >> : drive a F335, a Viper, a 911, and a Lotus Esprit V8 for 30 minutes each.

Quoted text (18 lines)

>> : Well i happened to have saved my money and went there. And I did drive >the >> : 911, and no it did not oversteer. Ofcourse it oversteered, but only >rearly >> Canadian. Living in Switzerland. No interest in professional football. >> Porsches that I have driven include a late 60's 912, mid-70's Carrera, >> mid-80's turbo and a Boxster. Understeer to neutral on corner entry with >> a careful foot on the throttle, oversteer if you lifted, and don't even >> think of braking. If they've tamed this with the '99 and its lovely >> electronics, then that's a step forward for public road safety, but it's >> taken away the one thing I enjoyed about the 911. >> As for your last point, I can't imagine a car oversteering any other way >> but "rearly". I imagine your 528 understeers "frontly". >> Have a nice day >> Stephen

schumacher wrote As a Department of transport ADI (Approved Driving instructor), member of the IAM, (Institute of advanced motorists) and a ROSPA gold certified advanced driver (Equivalent to a Police class 2 advanced licence), I know a little about car handling characteristics <G> I used to be a 15 YO about 20 and 3/4 years ago :-) And what the *** is this business about rear Yep. All mid engine cars I believe. There is a subtle diference between having an engine slung behind your shoulder and having one stuck over the rear axle. Of course you know all about turning moments from your physics lessons, right? Depends if your granny is driving it or not. Remember the late 80's? Here in the UK we used to see piles of 911's buried in hedges. This coincided with the emergence of yuppies. Suddenly we had a breed of very rich kids in the city with more money than driving skill or knowledge. The 911 is a superb drivers tool in the right hands. In the hands of an the amateur it is a superb tool in which to get bitten by. I hardly ever see F1 cars oversteering, they spin out These cars have no relevance to your argument about the 911. They are not sportscars and I believe that there are too many variables involved to think about using a F1 car as a comparison. (GPL is much When was the last time you drove a Lotus 49 then in order to make a comparison pal? Mark

> It may be genious, but it doesn't eliminate the laws of physics, at a > certain point the laws of physics will take over, but feel free to take > that 99 model 911 of yours an ignore those laws if you feel like it, > your choice Well, at least he has a good chance of hitting the tree/telephone pole/house/rock wall or whatever tail-first. Physics don't hold grudges so it might still work to his benefit. -:) Cheers, /ft

ehem... Thanks, but I wouldn't know if you'd trust me had you actually seen me drive the Porsche Chris. Let's just say there nearly was a dent in the guard rail at Scheivlak to prove my point. ;-) Jan. ------ >Couple points: ><snip> >4) Pay attention and read the posts before spouting off. Several of the >people who posted have said they have either > a) track time in a race-preped 911 aka Jan Verschueren whom I'd trust a >hell of a lot more than a snot nosed kid<snip>

Quoted text (7 lines)

> How can you become a race driver when you don't know the > difference between understeer and oversteer?? > Did any of you ever have had oversteer on the front of the car? > hhhmmm.... not me.... not anyone.... > MiXer a.k.a Sjon Stigter

Hey, Sjon, seriously! Of course! It depends on the location of your steering wheel. My steering wheel is near the front, and I can adjust it so that it's high: Oversteering. And I can lower the column down below my knees almost; Understeering. Front of both! Haven't you he_rd before???????? See? "U" can have both! <g> Nice trolling, this. And now for something completely different; a man with 3 noses. Matt -- --------------------------------- Matthew Birger Knutsen The Art of Legends; http://www.gpl.electra.no Cheek Racing Cars; http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

Offcourse.... how could I forget? In that case English cars have a tendency to show rightsteering and european cars have left steering.... So in the UK you will hit that phonepole with your right side..... How logically :) MiXer

Quoted text (9 lines)

>> How can you become a race driver when you don't know the >> difference between understeer and oversteer?? >> Did any of you ever have had oversteer on the front of the car? >> hhhmmm.... not me.... not anyone.... >> MiXer a.k.a Sjon Stigter >Hey, Sjon, seriously! Of course! It depends on the location of your

steering

Quoted text (10 lines)

>wheel. >My steering wheel is near the front, and I can adjust it so that it's high: >Oversteering. >And I can lower the column down below my knees almost; Understeering. >Front of both! Haven't you he_rd before???????? >See? "U" can have both! ><g> >Nice trolling, this. And now for something completely different; a man with

3

Quoted text (12 lines)

>noses. >Matt >-- >--------------------------------- >Matthew Birger Knutsen >The Art of Legends; >http://www.gpl.electra.no >Cheek Racing Cars; >http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:20:25 +0100, SPEWWWWWWWWW........ -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com

You have been playing with your big brother's matchbox cars too long and I'm sure your Dad will be pissed when he finds out you have been playing with his computer again. Where did you pick up all those grown-up words from? Grow up juvenile. Paul

Quoted text (44 lines)

> UHHHH? When did i say my 528 oversteers frontly? And I don't know what the > *** all of this mild understeer shit is, cause I don't buy a car > dictonaries > and learn all of the terms right off it, but I do know how to drive, and as > soon as I get my 911 I am going to get it tuned up and enter an ameteur > championship. (what the *** are u talking about? I finished high school and > I went to University and studied economics and I have a job. So why the > *** are u telling me to finish high school and go buy books on physics? If > u go ask the real Schumacher he probably won't half all of the stuff u know > about cars and it's physics but he's the best ***ing driver in the world > much better than one of those stupid indianopolis 500 losers that race > around an oval track for 500 laps.) > Schumacher > > : Have u ever oversteered a real car? I take my 528 to the track every > weekend > > : and I might not know about the chasis settings of cars but I can drive > on > > : tracks and for real, and since your last name sounds English (manchester > > : united coach), I guess you know about Snetterton, right? Where u get to > > : drive a F335, a Viper, a 911, and a Lotus Esprit V8 for 30 minutes each. > > : Well i happened to have saved my money and went there. And I did drive > the > > : 911, and no it did not oversteer. Ofcourse it oversteered, but only > rearly > > Canadian. Living in Switzerland. No interest in professional football. > > Porsches that I have driven include a late 60's 912, mid-70's Carrera, > > mid-80's turbo and a Boxster. Understeer to neutral on corner entry with > > a careful foot on the throttle, oversteer if you lifted, and don't even > > think of braking. If they've tamed this with the '99 and its lovely > > electronics, then that's a step forward for public road safety, but it's > > taken away the one thing I enjoyed about the 911. > > As for your last point, I can't imagine a car oversteering any other way > > but "rearly". I imagine your 528 understeers "frontly". > > Have a nice day > > Stephen

First off the 911 will on throttle understeer and off throttle oversteer. This is due to the wieght bais toward the rear tires. Most cars are actaully designed to understeer. This keeps people who do not know how to drive from backing into things then they get over their head driving. An understeering car is much easier to drive then an oversteering car. Car manufactures do not make cars that oversteer 99% of the time. ITs the other way around. Dave

Schumacher. Oversteer is when the rear tires loose grip before the fronts in a turn. Understeer is when the front tires loose grip before the rear tires in a corner. I just thought you might want to know that since it seems you do not. Dave

> You have been playing with your big brother's matchbox cars too long and I'm > sure your Dad will be pissed when he finds out you have been playing with his > computer again. Where did you pick up all those grown-up words from? Grow up > juvenile. Paul Well, he might not lie about him being an ***, having a diploma and all. After all, he did claim to have been an economy student... Fits the prejudiced I've acquired over my academic career perfectly. -;) /ft, about to get flamed by everyone who ever managed to calculate the sum their groceries amounted too faster than the cash register

Nice tangent McK Ever thought of joining us at the Vegeserver. You'd be very welcome. :-) (Sorry....In- Joke_ Mark > I ve the F1 supersignal digital TV, you choose within 7 channels, (Mosaic, > Main, Leader, Action, On Board, Pits, Data) with 2 audio channels > (Commentators and Ambient Sound) > I usually turn it to On Board when nothing serius is happenning (ie: at the > beginning of the Qualif, etc ...) and chose Original Audio, I can tell you, > F1 cars are 'always' oversteering ... > btw: someone interested in the Hakkinen crash at hockenheim On Board, with

Quoted text (11 lines)

> Ambient Sound ? ;) I will 'MPEG' it > McKafre De La Rosa > > bla bla bla ... > > Anyways from when on do cars oversteer at 200km/h when > >attacking corners? I hardly ever see F1 cars oversteering, they spin out > >quite

On 12 Aug 1999 20:55:55 GMT, "DAVID " >> Even in road-going form a 911 will bite you if not treated with >> respect, and lift-off oversteer has been an infamous Porsche trait >> ever since the 911's birth. >First off the 911 will on throttle understeer and off throttle oversteer. >This is due to the wieght bais toward the rear tires. Am I reading that wrong are are you disagreeing with me while writing something that states the same as I did? :-) Cheers! John

the inherent oversteer of the chassis... I guess you guys all refer to the oversteer that happens if you lift mid corner, or entering a corner too hot. I own a mid 80s 911 which I take to the track every chance I get. I find the car to be an understeering pig, and the rumors of oversteer to be vastly exagerated. yes, it will snap ends if you do something really dumb, like lift in a very fast turn, at or near the limits of ashesion. Other than that it scared me more times by going straight than oversterring... ;-) (in which case you have to lift a bit so it can oversteer, and catch it) Greg. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Oh, and incidentally I think the 911s are really well done in SCGT. I convinced another SCGT playing friend/911 owner to go to the track with me a while back, and he was - like me - surprised at how close it was to the real thing behaviour wise... Great game ! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

but only rearly" "rearly?"--well yes, that's what oversteer does . . . or did you (or to use your kewl speak, "u") mean "rarely?" If so, fine. But why the bug up your ass? Don't you like the folks in this ng? --------------------- trying to act tough. " I'm sure there's a nice "porsche-drivers wannabees" group you could abuse. Take that shit somewhere else, fool. love, DK

Fact is that any car, in particular one that drives though the rear-wheels, can and will oversteer if you try hard enough. There is not "magic" gadget that will eliminate that. New 911 are brilliant handling cars and are amazingly progressive but the fact is if you want to oversteer it, then you can, just like any other car (in particular one with enough power). Anyway, this conversation is pointless 'cos all you have to do is watch Porsche cup races on TV and you will see that the cars slide a fair bit (looks very progressivle mind you) and they overteer quiete frequently. Therefore, a game that models racing 911, should let you get the back out in order to be "authentic". Regards, David Mocnay

Quoted text (40 lines)

>Did you ever hear of the PSM system incorporated into the '99 models of the >911? I don't think so. It eliminates oversteer. End of story. That is >German high-tech genius. >You guys are so ignorant it is hard to believe. >martin >> > I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports >Car >> > GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about >> > Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's >cars >> > so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause >here >> > in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I >thinking >> > of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars >> > don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u >actually >> > knew something about the cars. >> I have no idea if a race modified 911 has a lot of oversteer, but let me >> assure you, that any 911 up to the latest version, WILL sooner or later >> show you why most cars don't have the engines mounted in the rear, at >> least if you drive it the way sports cars should be driven, there are >> certain laws of physics that apply, that no amount of German hi-tech >> engineering can eliminate >> -- >> Beers and cheers >> (uncle) Goy >> "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ >> "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

"showing worse than the shiny ass on a five year old suit." LOL, good one. Marty

Yeah, right. Does anyone remember an article in Car & Driver ( I think ) of a comparison between a full race 911 Turbo driven by Danny Ongias and his personal 911 Turbo street car given to him by Porsche. He was quoted as saying as good a race car as the race version was, he wouldn't drive the street car fast on the street anywhere but in a straight line because of it's unforgiving behavior. Don't imagine that statement sold many 911s, and probably didn't help his racing career any. But this was from one of the most talented, versatile and fearless drivers of the time. The rear engine placement not only contributes to the high polar moment of inertia that is part and parcel of trailing throttle oversteer, but prevents adequate room for a proper suspension to deal with it. Seems quite obvious to me the 911 was a neat little car when it started out but developed into a fundamentally stupid car from a design stand point, kept alive longer than Porsche ever intended by a yuppie/collector cult following. They finally replaced it with modern automotive design concepts for a high performance sports car such as midengine placement and liquid cooled engine. Did they finally get rid of the semi-trailing arm/macphersion strut suspension used in just about every econo-box ever made? Just thought this thread could use some fresh heat :-) Marty

Quoted text (10 lines)

> I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports Car > GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about > Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's cars > so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause here > in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I thinking > of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars > don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u actually > knew something about the cars. > Schumacher

Yeah, I think I saw a little of that at LeMans last month.

>U guys obviously know nothing about cars and u are probably dumb little 15 >year olds trying to act tough. And what the *** is this business about rear >engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? I'm 41, with a million miles driving experience, a little on a track, and a lot of autocrossing. The 911 was known for 20 years as the nastiest case of oversteer ever built by man. Newer versions are much improved, but the trait is still there. I might also point out that none of the cars you mention above are rear engine cars. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

Sorry Schemacher, it is like that in reral life. Yopu're right that if will drift or understeer most of the time, but if you tighten the line too much, back off or just hit a bump, the car will oversteer - that is at any speed. I've been in 100km/h oversteer quiete often (I have a mid-engine car)... my fastest oversteer was at about 170km/h and I didn't catch that one (luclily on the racetrack I spun along the road and didn't hit anything). GPL cars will and do oversteer at any speed - look at old footage of Clark and tell me when is he not oversteering? As rar as rear-engined cars go - McLaren F1, F50, CLR-GTR are all mid-endined cars, not rear-engined cars. Mid-engined car is one with the engine between the rerar wheels and front wheels while rear-engined car has the engine behind the rear wheels. Porsche 911 and VW (the old one) are the only cars that do that. The F1 cars do not oversteer because they generate instane amount of downforce which only is appied while the car is facing straight, moment the car is sideways the downforce is gone and the F1 has no grip, that's why there is usually an insane spin. Regards, David Mocnay

Quoted text (40 lines)

>U guys obviously know nothing about cars and u are probably dumb little 15 >year olds trying to act tough. And what the *** is this business about rear >engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? Ofcourse >a 911 will oversteer if u force it to, but in a turn it will understeer 99% >percent of the time. Anyways from when on do cars oversteer at 200km/h when >attacking corners? I hardly ever see F1 cars oversteering, they spin out >quite often but when u have 800+ bhp it's not hard to spin out in 1,2 or >even 3 gear. And TOCA2 is so fake. The cars oversteer ALL the time and >countering it is so easy. In TOCA2 u can attack a corner at full speed >cause, the worst that will happen is that your car will oversteer, and than >u put opposite lock and the back just grips back right away (GPL is much >better but there still is too much oversteer), trust me in real life it's >not like that. >Schumacher >> > I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports >Car >> > GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about >> > Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's >> cars >> > so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause >here >> > in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I >> thinking >> > of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars >> > don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u >actually >> > knew something about the cars. >> You are obviously not a physics genious. >> KSB

Yes we are talking about off throttle oversteer. The old torsen bar 911s do that very well. Infact when I was selling cars I had a customer do that with me in the car. Luckily he just really scared himself. After I drove him back I got into his 6 series BMW and left. the 914-6 is even worse on that. Both car will have a really bad on throttle understeer tho. Its a basic problem of having the motor behind the rear axel. If you can live with it you can go insanely fast, in those cars. Dave

TOCA 2 OVERSTEER ? and can be counter steer ? that is good news, could you give me an example how you are doing it ? I am trying to get back on the track with a bit of countersteer but end up mainly on the grass ! > U guys obviously know nothing about cars and u are probably dumb little 15 > year olds trying to act tough. And what the *** is this business about rear > engined cars? haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? Ofcourse > a 911 will oversteer if u force it to, but in a turn it will understeer 99% > percent of the time. Anyways from when on do cars oversteer at 200km/h when > attacking corners? I hardly ever see F1 cars oversteering, they spin out > quite often but when u have 800+ bhp it's not hard to spin out in 1,2 or > even 3 gear. And TOCA2 is so fake. The cars oversteer ALL the time and > countering it is so easy. In TOCA2 u can attack a corner at full speed > cause, the worst that will happen is that your car will oversteer, and than

Quoted text (16 lines)

> u put opposite lock and the back just grips back right away (GPL is much > better but there still is too much oversteer), trust me in real life it's > not like that. > Schumacher > > > I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports > Car > > > GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything

about > > > Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's > > cars > > > so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause > here > > > in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I > > thinking > > > of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u > actually > > > knew something about the cars. > > You are obviously not a physics genious. > > KSB

Also a lot of engine choice from Tamiya > : I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports Car > : GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about > : Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's cars > : so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause here > : in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I thinking > : of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars > : don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u actually

Quoted text (21 lines)

> : knew something about the cars. > Perhaps it would be better if "u" thought a little bit before spouting > off. Porsche has been refining the 911 since its inception to try to tame > the inherent oversteer of the chassis. They are pretty much there with > the latest generation, partly as a result of suspension design, partly > because the layout is tending more towards mid-engine than rear engine. I > live in Europe at the moment. I see a lot of 911s. It doesn't > necessarily mean I know about them. However, I am a mechanical engineer > with a keen interest, perhaps passion, for 911s of all ages. An early 911 > will snap-oversteer in a second if the driver is not precise. A mid-80's > 911 will oversteer on trailing throttle without a moment's hesitation. A > Carrera 4 is neutral, due to the AWD, until provoked with the throttle, at > which point it will also oversteer. At their limit all 911s can easily be > induced to oversteer. Porsche has not made it "impossible" to oversteer > in a 911. > I'm glad you are thinking of buying a 911. I imagine Matchbox has a fine > assortment of colours for you to choose from, Schumi. > Stephen

haven't you guys herd of F50s, McLaren F1s, CLK-GTRs? All MID-engined, a very different concept Ofcourse And Boeing 747's spend most of the time flying upside down. At a guess, when they lose traction at the rear ?? So you've never watched Schumacher (your namesake) ????? For goodness sake, these cars are set up and balanced to be as neutral as possible, a 911 (which is what we are talking about here) isn't. I wouldn't trust to you to wipe your own a** without leaving skidmarks let alone drive a 911. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

: On 12 Aug 1999 20:55:55 GMT, "DAVID " :>> Even in road-going form a 911 will bite you if not treated with :>> respect, and lift-off oversteer has been an infamous Porsche trait :>> ever since the 911's birth. :>First off the 911 will on throttle understeer and off throttle oversteer. :>This is due to the wieght bais toward the rear tires. : Am I reading that wrong are are you disagreeing with me while writing : something that states the same as I did? :-) : Cheers! : John John, you made a little typo in your first note, saying that mom and dad's sedan are designed to OVERsteer 99% of the time. Small typo. By the way, how were things up in Scotland? I attended a wedding in Doune Castle in Callander in May, and it was wonderful. And no, there were no cows coming over the walls (Doune was in the Holy Grail) Stephen

German high-tech genius indeed if they can retrospectively apply it to all the 911's ever made without even recalling them to the factory. Just because they've worked on getting the *** snap out of them hard and have managed to get close to it now doesn't mean it never existed. 911's power off oversteer is infamous and *anyone* who knows about sportscars will have heard of it. Get that chip off your shoulder and listen to people who obviously know a *lot* more than you do. M

I prefer to see this as the working of natural selection in action. Perhaps the Kansas school board should take note :P M

Um, if 911's never exhibited negative throttle understeer, then why did they incorporate that PSM thing? To eliminate a problem that never existed? I don't think so. See ya in the pits, Dean I have a terrible memory. In fact my memory's so bad I can't remember how long it's been since I've forgotten anything. -- > Did you ever hear of the PSM system incorporated into the '99 models of the > 911? I don't think so. It eliminates oversteer. End of story. That is > German high-tech genius. > You guys are so ignorant it is hard to believe. > martin > > > I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports > Car > > > GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything about > > > Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing it's > cars > > > so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause > here > > > in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I > thinking > > > of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the cars > > > don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u > actually > > > knew something about the cars. > > I have no idea if a race modified 911 has a lot of oversteer, but let me > > assure you, that any 911 up to the latest version, WILL sooner or later > > show you why most cars don't have the engines mounted in the rear, at > > least if you drive it the way sports cars should be driven, there are > > certain laws of physics that apply, that no amount of German hi-tech > > engineering can eliminate > > -- > > Beers and cheers > > (uncle) Goy > > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

Oops, make that negative throttle OVERSTEER. (It's early and haven't finished the morning coffee yet) -- See ya in the pits, Dean I have a terrible memory. In fact my memory's so bad I can't remember how long it's been since I've forgotten anything. > Um, if 911's never exhibited negative throttle understeer, then why did they > incorporate that PSM thing? To eliminate a problem that never existed? I > don't think so. > See ya in the pits, > Dean > I have a terrible memory. In fact my memory's so bad I can't remember how > long it's been since I've forgotten anything. > -- > > Did you ever hear of the PSM system incorporated into the '99 models of > the > > 911? I don't think so. It eliminates oversteer. End of story. That is > > German high-tech genius. > > You guys are so ignorant it is hard to believe. > > martin > > > > I have herd some complaints about the 911s not oversteering in Sports > > Car > > > > GT, but it just happeneds to be that if u guys would know anything > about > > > > Eropean cars, you would know that Porsche as always been designing > it's > > cars > > > > so that they are virtually impossible to oversteer. I know that cause > > here > > > > in Europe 911s are not a rare sight, u'll see about 3 a day, and I > > thinking > > > > of getting one. Before u start saying how fake a game is cause the > cars > > > > don't handle how they are supposed to be, maybe it'd better if u > > actually > > > > knew something about the cars. > > > I have no idea if a race modified 911 has a lot of oversteer, but let me > > > assure you, that any 911 up to the latest version, WILL sooner or later > > > show you why most cars don't have the engines mounted in the rear, at > > > least if you drive it the way sports cars should be driven, there are > > > certain laws of physics that apply, that no amount of German hi-tech > > > engineering can eliminate > > > -- > > > Beers and cheers > > > (uncle) Goy > > > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

> while rear-engined car has the engine behind >the rear wheels. Porsche 911 and VW (the old one) are the only cars that do >that. I promised myself not to get involved, just like I promised myself I was going to give up watching F1... I'm just being pedantic here (and why not?) but the (Renault) Alpine A610 and its forebears were rear engined, too, weren't they? And they reportedly did a much better job of it than a 911 in their time. Please notice I said reportedly - that means going from what I've read in motoring press - I don't think I'll ever get to drive a rear engined supercar, unfortunately... Cheers Mark Reading, UK

Um..... -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824

> : Did you ever hear of the PSM system incorporated into the '99 models of the > : 911? I don't think so. It eliminates oversteer. End of story. That is > : German high-tech genius. Yeah... and that is why my friend just wrote off his BMW (with a similar stability control system) by going backwards into a ditch at 70mph? and no... he wasn't doing 70 in reverse! Marc Mercer

What are you trying to say?? not one of thise cars are rear engined, they are of course mid engined? Ofcourse are you old enough to drive or have you ever driven a car????? Marc

Ouch,,, costly mistake. Guess he should have played GPL instead. ;-) Jan. ------ ><snip> >Yeah... and that is why my friend just wrote off his BMW (with a similar >stability control system) by going backwards into a ditch at 70mph? >and no... he wasn't doing 70 in reverse!

How did you manage to do all that when most of the time you fail even to handle a simple concept such as spelling?! -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824

The new BMW M5 _nearly_ proves you wrong on that - almost impossible to get yourself into trouble, however cack-handed you may be. That is of course provided you have all of the electronic gizmos turned on - without them it's just like any other powerful RWD. Cheers! John

Er....DOH! Things are great up in Scotland - in July I also attended a wedding, although it was up north around Ullapool/Lochinver, Inchnadamph Castle - mind you, it was my wedding so it seemed only fair that I should show up :-) Doune Castle would be sensational, although you've got to just pray for the weather in Scotland - I was "lucky", getting sunburned and eaten to death by midgies - why did Scotsmen adopt the kilt as national dress when there are several million *** sucking insects waiting in the heather to chomp on your tender regions? Crazy...! Cheers! John

too right! ;) he would have held it if he'd had some GPL practice whats worse was that he'd only done 2500miles in it from brand new! :( Marc

> Things are great up in Scotland - in July I also attended a wedding, > although it was up north around Ullapool/Lochinver, Inchnadamph Castle > - mind you, it was my wedding so it seemed only fair that I should > show up :-) What, you got married and we here at r.a.s. weren't invited ??? Sheesh, some ppl.......... Congrats man, all the best LMAO -- Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/