Spygirl help

Ok, I tried using SpyGirl to compare one of my laps with Matt Sentell's lap at Monza. This is what I discovered: 1) He's about 4mph faster in top speed 2) He's about 5mph faster in accelleration. Meaning, at the same point after a turn, he's 5 mph faster. 3) I'm about 14mph slower entering the first Lesmos corner. (!) The hard part is - how do I make up the time? I'm already at my limit. If I go any faster in the turns, I crash. I'm aware some people say you have to go slower to go faster. Well, I'm ALREADY slower(see # 3). NOW what? Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Ehhhh...... Practice, practice practice :))) Andre

It isn't helping. I've done TONS of laps at Monza and the Glen, and half a ton<g> at Kyalami. I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with being the slowest red thing on the track. It used to be the slowest BLUE thing, so there's progress. <g> Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Read this track guide of Monza: [link lost in import] I think it'll help you. Andre

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>Warringa) writes: >>Ehhhh...... >>Practice, practice practice :))) >>Andre >It isn't helping. I've done TONS of laps at Monza and the Glen, and half a >ton<g> at Kyalami. I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with being the >slowest red thing on the track. It used to be the slowest BLUE thing, so >there's progress. <g> >Eldred >__ >Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... >remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Aside of the usual 'practice, practice, practice...' (I need that also...;-)) some suggestions If you are not driving an Eagle too, don't worry - the Eagle has the highest top speed of all cars. If you are, however, check out if your wheel is calibrated correctly, especially the gas pedal (don't press it full while calibrating - just almost full). Also try playing a little bit with the gear ratios, maybe your 5th is too long or short. Of course, better exit speed makes better top speed ('practice, practice, practice'... again :-)), so watch your exit speed especially out of Parabolica (a good point to do this is the point where you almost hit the red wall to the left - watch the replay in chase view) Same as above, regarding calibration, gear ratios (maybe a shorter 3rd and/or 4th) and the 'practice thingy'. Before braking for Lesmo1 or Vmin in Lesmo1 ? If before braking you should work seriously on Curva Grande and check your setup. Understeering kills you in Curva Grande (and Ascari - must be taken flat), try stiffer rear roll bar or maybe lower power side ramp angle (if you dare... ;-)). If you are slow in Lesmo1, we are at 'practice...' again. Well, I also have way to go for the quick times, but at least I'm quicker than the Sentell replay that came with the game (1:29.62 with the Lotus). So, all that's left to say is ... (the damned 'p'-word again:-)) Peter Vienna, Austria

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> Warringa) writes: > >Ehhhh...... > >Practice, practice practice :))) > >Andre > It isn't helping. I've done TONS of laps at Monza and the Glen, and half a > ton<g> at Kyalami. I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with being the > slowest red thing on the track. It used to be the slowest BLUE thing, so > there's progress. <g>

You could try being the slowest green thing (Lotus) - this car is quite a bit quicker than the others at Monza. Everyone else will hate you if you race online ;-) but that's the price you have to pay! Take a look at [link lost in import: /~schubi/fastlaps.htm] and download one of the really fast setups - they probably won't be quite as fast as they were as the ride height will be increased by GPL 1.1 to 2.5 inches, but still faster than your current setup. The car will probably be a bu**er to drive at first, but I've found that a combination of doing consistent laps with a comfortable setup followed by trying to get consistent in a fast setup is a good way to improve your laptimes, as you can otherwise get "locked into" a slow setup and don't see how to improve. I came back to Monza after a long time out and found I could do consistent 1:30s without hitting the barriers, by using Ian Lake's hotlap setup (unfortunately he's now out of the top 10 so you can't download his setup!). Monza is one of those circuits that's really boring to drive if you can't keep up with the other cars - the only e***ment is the racing, not the circuit! There are only 4 real corners at Monza, so there isn't too much to concentrate on! The downside is that if you lose time anywhere on the circuit it's hard to get it back, so you need to focus on getting every corner absolutely right. T1 is pretty easy - brake pretty late and make sure you get a 4-wheel drift here otherwise you'll need to slow right down to stay off the barrier. You should go round it in a consistent slide with the nose of the car pointing towards the inside curb. Just ease on and off the throttle to keep it balanced, and put the throttle flat down as soon as you can see you're going to make it without hitting the barrier. For the first Lesmo you have a lot of braking to do and it's easy to spin out as you turn in, so you need to get on the throttle pretty sharpish (but smoothly of course!) to prevent this. Lesmo 2 is the hardest turn to get right, and it's very important to be fast out of here, because of the enormous following straight. On the other hand you don't want to end up in the bushes! I haven't really sussed this one myself, but I think the key is to use all the road and get a little bit of 4-wheel drift so you can turn in and aim slightly right of the apex and drift just past it. Flat out at the little left-hand kink - if you turn in slightly before the racing groove the car seems to go round on rails, but if you're a bit late turning in you'll need to lift a bit. For the hairpin I find it's possible to brake extremely late here (about a second past the start of the braking zone) and trail-brake into it, then 'feel' it with the throttle so you can accelerate as soon as possible without oversteering into the barrier on the right. You want to drift out to the left anyway as you exit this turn, so (I think) the trick is to steer left to correct oversteer rather than backing off too much. Tricky! Personally I think this circuit is much more fun with a fast but tricky car like the Lotus - in a safe but slow car it's just plain boring.

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>Aside of the usual 'practice, practice, practice...' (I need that >also...;-)) some suggestions >> Ok, I tried using SpyGirl to compare one of my laps with Matt Sentell's >lap at >> Monza. This is what I discovered: >> 1) He's about 4mph faster in top speed >If you are not driving an Eagle too, don't worry - the Eagle has the highest >top speed of all cars. If you are, however, check out if your wheel is >calibrated correctly, especially the gas pedal (don't press it full while >calibrating - just almost full). Also try playing a little bit with the gear >ratios, maybe your 5th is too long or short.

Hmmm. I *started* in the Eagle - and got discouraged because I couldn't keep up. Now I'm using AH's Ferarri setups. At the guardrail on the left at the entry. So how many laps have YOU done? I wish the program kept track for you... Uh, Randy!!! <g> Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>The car will probably be a bu**er to drive at first, but I've found that >a combination of doing consistent laps with a comfortable setup followed >by trying to get consistent in a fast setup is a good way to improve >your laptimes, as you can otherwise get "locked into" a slow setup and >don't see how to improve. >I came back to Monza after a long time out and found I could do >consistent 1:30s without hitting the barriers, by using Ian Lake's >hotlap setup (unfortunately he's now out of the top 10 so you can't >download his setup!).

What times were you doing BEFORE you stopped running Monza? __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Thanks. I've seen the site before - 3:18-3:20 for race laps at Spa(my PB is 3:33), 1:27.5 - 1:29 at Silverstone (PB is 1:35.xx), 1:28 - 1:29 at Monza (PB is 1:31.8x). As you can see, I'm WAY off the pace - 3 sec. at Monza, 6 sec. at Silverstone, and 13(!) at Spa. I don't even want to THINK about Monaco or Zandvoort! Realistically, how many laps do you think it will take before I can even get CLOSE to those times...? Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Ofcourse everyone needs lots of laps on each track to learn the track well enough to go for the hot laptimes. But I don't think that after you've learned a track, it's a question of how many laps you have to drive before you get good lap times. Just driving around without pushing yourself, without trying new things just doesn't make you any faster. My favorite hotlap track is Monza. Because it is so simple, it's even more fascinating why woeger can driving under 1.27 and I can't. I have used GPLDump so much to compare woeger's laps to mine. In the beginning I saw that I was losing lots of time in the 2nd lesmo (which is absolutely the harderst corner to get right on Monza). So for a whole evening long, I took the 2nd lesmo, drove backwards before the 2nd lesmo, (I was offline folks!), took the 2nd lesmo again, drove backwards again, and so for the whole evening I was doing nothing else than taking the 2nd lesmo. I tried lots of lines, I practiced trailbraking, I changed my setups so I could get earlier on the gas without my rear braking away. That evening, I still couldn't take it as fast as woeger. But I learned lots. Especially trailbraking is so important in the lesmo's, it really helps so much to turn the car fast around in these corners. And now I can take all corners allmost as fast as woeger. My braking is even better than his so one day I should be able to beat his laptime :) But I've never succeeded to get all corners perfect in one lap. The only thing I now have to do is practice, practice, practice :) Just for your statistics, I've driving hundreds and hundreds of laps. Also be sure to check out this site: http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/ It's one of my favorite GPL sites. The driving tips are very usefull, read them very carefully. And also try to understand the car setups, it helps so much if you know WHY your car is acting in certain ways, and how you can adjust the car to your own driving style. It's also very satisfying to use your own-made car setup. And on Monza.... drive the Lotus! Good luck, don't give up, and have fun, Andre

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> >The car will probably be a bu**er to drive at first, but I've found that > >a combination of doing consistent laps with a comfortable setup followed > >by trying to get consistent in a fast setup is a good way to improve > >your laptimes, as you can otherwise get "locked into" a slow setup and > >don't see how to improve. > >I came back to Monza after a long time out and found I could do > >consistent 1:30s without hitting the barriers, by using Ian Lake's > >hotlap setup (unfortunately he's now out of the top 10 so you can't > >download his setup!). > What times were you doing BEFORE you stopped running Monza?

Well, when I first tried about a week after getting GPL I did get a 1:28.8, but that was before I realized that riding the guard rails was cheating! At most tracks I'd say consistency is more important than speed, but Monza is so simple that it *should* be pretty easy to be consistent. It can then get very boring if you're a second or two off the pace, as you spend the whole race going slowly backwards through the field (or just dropping further and further out of sight). That's why I moved on to other tracks - there just seems to be so much more to driving fast at a track like Zandvoort. How did you get on with the Lotus? I think you should be able to beat 1:35 by just concentrating on getting a good exit from each corner - especially the second Lesmo and Parabolica. In the case of Parabolica, you have to take it well twice - once at the start of your hotlap and once at the end.

<snip> When I started GPL about 1 1/2 months ago I had terrible problems with all cars except the standard 1,0 Ferrari. They had way too much understeer, which is very bad for Monza, as I mentioned before. But that problem went away, when switched to fully linear steering. Try that, if you don't use it already. AH' Ferrari setups are very good, but since the Ferrari lacks a little bit power, it will be more difficult to drive fast laps at Monza.(Haven't tried it yet). I currently use Ricardo Nunnini's Lotus setup with 1.0 standard gear ratios an break balance at 57%. Try them, you can get them at http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/ [address restored] <snip> Yes, we need a lapcounter :-) ! Well, I haven't counted them (who does ?), but surely some hundrets. But that is not so much as it sounds. Consider having fuel for 11 laps, drive until the car is dry, will take you roughly 20 mins with a short break. Do that three times, takes an hour. Spend that hour every day a week long and you have over 200 laps. (Not to mention the 6 hour sessions on some lazy sunday afternoon :-)) Rush fan? Me too! :-) Peter Vienna, Austria

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>> What times were you doing BEFORE you stopped running Monza? >Well, when I first tried about a week after getting GPL I did get a >1:28.8, but that was before I realized that riding the guard rails was >cheating! >At most tracks I'd say consistency is more important than speed, but >Monza is so simple that it *should* be pretty easy to be consistent.

I can do 1:32's consistently. Unfortunately, everyone ELSE does 1:28's...<g> ...see above... Zandvoort - 1:39's Next! <g> I've got nothing going on this weekend(darnit), so I'll try do do at least 100 laps every day. I may even try to tame the Lotus again. Previously, it was just a very high-priced lawnmower... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>Hmmm. I *started* in the Eagle - and got discouraged because I couldn't >keep >> up. Now I'm using AH's Ferarri setups. >When I started GPL about 1 1/2 months ago I had terrible problems with all >cars except the standard 1,0 Ferrari. They had way too much understeer, >which is very bad for Monza, as I mentioned before. But that problem went >away, when switched to fully linear steering. Try that, if you don't use it >already.

IIRC, I had problems with the car 'wandering' down the road. I had to play around with the linearity. I'll check it again. Ok, based on that type of estimate, I've done at LEAST 1000 laps. I'm sure there are some people who DO count their laps. Maybe I'll START counting, just out of curiosity... <g> Yep! They're my favorite group - I even owned a Rickenbacker 4001 at one time. I've seen them every tour since and including Moving Pictures. I figured that verse fit QUITE well with the newsgroups...<g> Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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> >> What times were you doing BEFORE you stopped running Monza? > >Well, when I first tried about a week after getting GPL I did get a > >1:28.8, but that was before I realized that riding the guard rails was > >cheating! > >At most tracks I'd say consistency is more important than speed, but > >Monza is so simple that it *should* be pretty easy to be consistent. > I can do 1:32's consistently. Unfortunately, everyone ELSE does 1:28's...<g> > >It can then get very boring if you're a second or two off the pace, as > >you spend the whole race going slowly backwards through the field (or > >just dropping further and further out of sight). > ...see above... > >That's why I moved on to other tracks - there just seems to be so much > >more to driving fast at a track like Zandvoort. > Zandvoort - 1:39's

Interesting - you're actually a lot further off the pace at Zandvoort than you are at Monza, so you may find you learn more there. I can do 1:28s at Zandy, and I've raced against some people doing consistent 1:24s! To do well at Zandvoort you really need to learn how to use trail-braking to get consistent oversteer into the corners - almost like rally-driving. The key for me was to transition very smoothly from throttle to brake and vice-versa (ie. not to stamp right on the brakes) - you need to brake (slightly) a fraction before you turn in, continue with the brake for a fraction (so you oversteer into the corner), then get smoothly on the gas through the corner and accelerate out. Once you get consistent you'll be swapping between braking or accelerating right through the lap, so it should become second nature. I suspect if you can master that circuit then Monza will seem incredibly easy by comparison, and you should learn a lot more about the car's behaviour into the bargain.

I *definitely* believe I'm slower(relatively) at Zandy. I can't handle that track at ALL. I also haven't done as many laps there as at Monza. I can't handle the 'roller coaster' nature of the track. I can't accelerate, brake, OR turn while going over those hills.... :-) I won't be able to trail-brake well for two reasons. One, I'm a right-foot braker. Two, I don't have a split-axis pedal set.(yet) If you SAY so... <g> Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldred, I've got two great tips for you that really work. First, learn to brake with your left foot and give gas with your right foot. Secondly, buy a split-axis pedal (the ch pro pedals are very accurate) and learn how to trail-brake! Without trailbraking you'll never get those super-fast lap times! Andre

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> >Interesting - you're actually a lot further off the pace at Zandvoort > >than you are at Monza, so you may find you learn more there. > I *definitely* believe I'm slower(relatively) at Zandy. I can't handle that > track at ALL. I also haven't done as many laps there as at Monza. I can't > handle the 'roller coaster' nature of the track. I can't accelerate, brake, OR > turn while going over those hills.... :-) > >I can do 1:28s at Zandy, and I've raced against some people doing > >consistent 1:24s! > >To do well at Zandvoort you really need to learn how to use > >trail-braking to get consistent oversteer into the corners - almost like > >rally-driving. The key for me was to transition very smoothly from > >throttle to brake and vice-versa (ie. not to stamp right on the brakes) > I won't be able to trail-brake well for two reasons. One, I'm a right-foot > braker.

I think we just found out where the problem is! ;-) You're right - there is no way you can handle Zandvoort using right-foot braking, so it's a beautiful example of why it's a good idea to brake with your left foot. I guess split axis will help as well - the smooth transition from brake to throttle and vice-versa is essential. Having said that, Wolfie uses a joystick (ie. no split axis) and he's pretty quick there!

<snip> <snip> Just as Andre and Neil told you. Buy a split axis pedal NOW (or modify your current one) and never use that right foot for breaking again. You don't even need to trailbrake, since doing it right is quite difficult and requires a lot of training (I don't think my feeble attempts deserve the name 'trailbraking'). But you must get a smooth transition between brake and gas at the entry of a corner, i.e. you go on the gas while lifting off the throttle (That's what split axis is for). If you don't do that you will have a short moment without gas or brake just at the moment you turn in. The engine will brake your rear wheels and you spin unless you are slow enough (which is not desirable :-)) Peter Vienna, Austria

AFAIK Woeger used a joystick for left/right and pedals for brake/gas, just like the guys at papy do (at papy they do this because of lack of deskspace). Not the most realistic way to race, but certainly the best way for fast laps. Woeger also drives with the arcade view (f10), which makes driving easier, because you can look further ahead and you can see better how close your wheels are to the inside of the road. Not the most realistic way to drive though, so I'll never drive that way. Andre

Hmmm, I believe you're wrong. Of course, Wolfgang can defend his own, but I believe he doesn't read RAS. Wolf use a stick only, and he use the chase view only when hotlapping. When he is online, he'll drive in car... Remco

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>AFAIK Woeger used a joystick for left/right and pedals for brake/gas, >just like the guys at papy do (at papy they do this because of lack of >deskspace). Not the most realistic way to race, but certainly the best >way for fast laps. Woeger also drives with the arcade view (f10), >which makes driving easier, because you can look further ahead and you >can see better how close your wheels are to the inside of the road. >Not the most realistic way to drive though, so I'll never drive that >way. >Andre >>Having said that, Wolfie uses a joystick (ie. no split axis) and he's >>pretty quick there!

Wolfgang does read RAS, I asked him this a couple of weeks ago. I wondered why I never saw any posts of him. He posts on the Apex HQ site and Schubi's site, and he doesn't want to post on to many forums. I really thought that I read that he used pedals, but indeed I could be wrong on this. At papy they do for sure. And you're right about him using the arcade view (I still think that word is better fitting than chase view) only when he's hotlapping. It's too difficult to drive online without the mirrors. Just to be clear, Wolfgang is one of the best, or THE best gpl driver. I admire his driving style and have learned lots from his replays. But personally I can't imagine why any serious GPL driver would use a joystick and arcade view. GPL is so realistic, I think it should be treated that way... Andre

I did try that (When I first got GPL, I think). Utter disaster. No coordination, and my left calf was hurting after very little time(no flexibility). We'll see what happens if I talk myself into a TSW2... I can deal with not being able to set a world record, but I'd at LEAST like to finish in the top 12 against the full AI. Eldred Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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><snip> >> I won't be able to trail-brake well for two reasons. One, I'm a >right-foot >> braker. Two, I don't have a split-axis pedal set.(yet) ><snip> >Just as Andre and Neil told you. Buy a split axis pedal NOW (or modify your >current one) and never use that right foot for breaking again. You don't >even need to trailbrake, since doing it right is quite difficult and >requires a lot of training (I don't think my feeble attempts deserve the >name 'trailbraking'). But you must get a smooth transition between brake and >gas at the entry of a corner, i.e. you go on the gas while lifting off the >throttle (That's what split axis is for). If you don't do that you will have >a short moment without gas or brake just at the moment you turn in. The >engine will brake your rear wheels and you spin unless you are slow enough >(which is not desirable :-))

Geez, I just went through learning how to drive without auto-shift... :-) Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

That's what makes GPL so challenging: There is always something to learn... ;-) Peter Vienna, Austria

>> Geez, I just went through learning how to drive without auto-shift... :-) >That's what makes GPL so challenging: There is always something to learn... >;-) >Peter >Vienna, Austria I don't think I can do it. I'm a bowler, and even a musician, but I am NOT coordinated enough to left-foot brake. A man's gotta know his limitations... :-) Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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> >> Geez, I just went through learning how to drive without auto-shift... :-) > >That's what makes GPL so challenging: There is always something to learn... > >;-) > >Peter > >Vienna, Austria > I don't think I can do it. I'm a bowler, and even a musician, but I am NOT > coordinated enough to left-foot brake. A man's gotta know his limitations... > :-)

Surely it's not that difficult? After all, you must use your left foot to walk on? Or do you prefer hopping? ;-)

> > I don't think I can do it. I'm a bowler, and even a musician, but I am NOT > > coordinated enough to left-foot brake. A man's gotta know his limitations...

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> > :-) > Surely it's not that difficult? > After all, you must use your left foot to walk on? > Or do you prefer hopping? ;-)

LOL :-))))) sorry, Eldred... Peter Vienna, Austria

Eldred, I don't think left-foot braking requires a huge amount of coordination. It's as simple as that: If the right foot goes up, the left foot goes down and the other way round... Just brake as before at first, just use your left foot for the brake: Off the throttle, then on the brake ... off the brake then on the throttle. When you are used to that (i.e. you don't have to think "I must use the left foot, I must use the left foot..." before every turn and can concentrate on braking points again ;-) you can try out the more subtle things... Peter Vienna, Austria > >> Geez, I just went through learning how to drive without auto-shift... :-) > >That's what makes GPL so challenging: There is always something to learn... > >;-) > >Peter > >Vienna, Austria > I don't think I can do it. I'm a bowler, and even a musician, but I am NOT > coordinated enough to left-foot brake. A man's gotta know his limitations...

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> :-) > Eldred > __ > Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... > remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>> > I don't think I can do it. I'm a bowler, and even a musician, but I am >NOT >> > coordinated enough to left-foot brake. A man's gotta know his >limitations... >> > :-) >> Surely it's not that difficult? >> After all, you must use your left foot to walk on? >> Or do you prefer hopping? ;-) >LOL :-))))) >sorry, Eldred...

Geez, tough CROWD...<g> Eldred(hopping into the cheap seats) __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>Eldred, >I don't think left-foot braking requires a huge amount of coordination. It's >as simple as that: If the right foot goes up, the left foot goes down and >the other way round... Just brake as before at first, just use your left >foot for the brake: Off the throttle, then on the brake ... off the brake >then on the throttle. When you are used to that (i.e. you don't have to >think "I must use the left foot, I must use the left foot..." before every >turn and can concentrate on braking points again ;-) you can try out the >more subtle things...

Last time I tried it, I destroyed several MILLION dollars of simulated high-tech machinery... :-) Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Well, as long as your virtual team-manager doesn't complain.... :-) Peter Vienna, Austria