Randy's TOCA 2 Review and Developer Comments

I'm reading an old copy of Next Generation (April 1999) and there is a good article on car simulations. Within the article there is an interesting quote from the producer of TOCA and TOCA2 on the physics of driving games. In light of Randy's review of TOCA2 and his impressions of the physics model I thought it would be a great area of discussion. Here's the quote... "The user must feel at one with the car he's driving, and it must respond in a way he would expect the real car to, otherwise he'll blame the game for his driving mistakes and feel frustrated...... This doesn't actually mean the car physics need to be a carbon copy of real life, and, in fact, I believe exaggerating certain areas of physics is necessary if you're to match the expectation of what the user remembers or believes the driving exeperience is actually like." Was this the case with the two popular Touring Car Sims? "Yes. For TOCA and especially TOCA2, we tweaked certain areas of the game to make it more involving. For example, although the cars are all front-wheel-drive in TOCA2, we moved the weight balance of all the TOCA cars back about one to two feet. This simple change makes the cars handle ever-so-slightly more like mid-engined cars, and makes them a lot less frustrating and a lot less dull to drive." -Gavin Raeburn TOCA2 producer, Codemasters. There you go. I'm not sure that I agree with all of it, but he makes some good points. -Andrew Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

>"The user must feel at one with the car he's driving, and it must >respond in a way he would expect the real car to, ...which TOCA didn't. Complete lack of understeer will do that to you. I want to be punished for my driving mistakes, by the car doing what a real car does....If I go into a corner too fast and try to turn the wheel more, the tires are going to scream in protest and the car is going to push towards the outside. I'll end up going off the track. What I won't do is spin. I understand the points he's making and to a certain degree I agree with them. Unfortunately I still believe my points stand. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

It's a balancing act. TOCA & TOCA 2 are games, they are not out and out simulators nor are they arcade racers. They hopefully fit somewhere in the middle and so therefore cover a wider spectrum of the consumer base. Randy has judged the game from a simulation point of view, which is his right. He makes a lot of valid comments which the more simulator orientated racers out there agree with. The out and out arcade racer would probably comment that the game is too much of a simulation, which would be his point of view. You can't please everybody all of the time, but you can please some of the people some of the time.

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> >"The user must feel at one with the car he's driving, and it must > >respond in a way he would expect the real car to, > ...which TOCA didn't. Complete lack of understeer will do that to > you. > >otherwise he'll blame the game for his driving mistakes and feel

frustrated

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> I want to be punished for my driving mistakes, by the car doing what a > real car does....If I go into a corner too fast and try to turn the > wheel more, the tires are going to scream in protest and the car is > going to push towards the outside. I'll end up going off the track. > What I won't do is spin. > >Was this the case with the two popular Touring Car Sims? "Yes. For > >TOCA and especially TOCA2, we tweaked certain areas of the game to make > >it more involving. For example, although the cars are all > >front-wheel-drive in TOCA2, we moved the weight balance of all the TOCA > >cars back about one to two feet. This simple change makes the cars > >handle ever-so-slightly more like mid-engined cars, and makes them a > >lot less frustrating and a lot less dull to drive." > I understand the points he's making and to a certain degree I agree > with them. Unfortunately I still believe my points stand. > Randy > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I think that as a reviewer, my opinion about what I like and dislike is subordinate to providing as much objective information about what's really in the product so a buyer can make an informed purchase. You might agree or disagree with me on what's to like and not like. In fact some people might even go out and get a game I hated because after having read the things I hated they figured those were things they LIKED! So either way my review helped. My reviews are deliberately long and detailed because I figure that your *** dollar is important and the more information you have about the game, the better off you'll be when it comes to choosing it. My goal is NOT to have everyone run out and buy a game because I LIKED it, but because they read enough information about it's content and features and how well they were implemented to know whether its something they would want to have. I am happy with my work from the standpoint that much of the feedback I get indicates that people ARE finding out what they want to know about the product, whether their priorities are the same as mine or not. Randy

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>It's a balancing act. TOCA & TOCA 2 are games, they are not out and out >simulators nor are they arcade racers. They hopefully fit somewhere in the >middle and so therefore cover a wider spectrum of the consumer base. >Randy has judged the game from a simulation point of view, which is his >right. He makes a lot of valid comments which the more simulator orientated >racers out there agree with. The out and out arcade racer would probably >comment that the game is too much of a simulation, which would be his point >of view. >You can't please everybody all of the time, but you can please some of the >people some of the time. >> >"The user must feel at one with the car he's driving, and it must >> >respond in a way he would expect the real car to, >> ...which TOCA didn't. Complete lack of understeer will do that to >> you. >> >otherwise he'll blame the game for his driving mistakes and feel >frustrated >> I want to be punished for my driving mistakes, by the car doing what a >> real car does....If I go into a corner too fast and try to turn the >> wheel more, the tires are going to scream in protest and the car is >> going to push towards the outside. I'll end up going off the track. >> What I won't do is spin. >> >Was this the case with the two popular Touring Car Sims? "Yes. For >> >TOCA and especially TOCA2, we tweaked certain areas of the game to make >> >it more involving. For example, although the cars are all >> >front-wheel-drive in TOCA2, we moved the weight balance of all the TOCA >> >cars back about one to two feet. This simple change makes the cars >> >handle ever-so-slightly more like mid-engined cars, and makes them a >> >lot less frustrating and a lot less dull to drive." >> I understand the points he's making and to a certain degree I agree >> with them. Unfortunately I still believe my points stand. >> Randy >> Randy Magruder >> [link lost in import]

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

On Thu, 05 Aug 1999 17:07:18 GMT, [snip] LOL! I can tell you another thing they 'tweaked'. In TOCA2, you can accelerate faster than a very fast thing from a standing start, in 6th gear. All that said, TOCA2 is a fun racer. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com

I'm looking at the back of the box right now, and no where does it claim to be a sim. I don't know how Codemasters is advertising the game, but I believe they do it more as a "game" than a sim. -Andrew

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> With you all the way there Randy. For the TOCA series CodeMasters have > always claimed "sim content", while the driving model is in fact halfway and > the build up of the game is strictly arcade. I think you did right to review > it as a sim game, as after all they claim it is one. > Love your comment on Thruxton BTW.... I thought the game just got silly and > ended my efforts to beat it cleanly then and there. > Jan. > ------- > ><Snip>

Is this article online ??? If so what's the URL ???? And.... What's the URL for Randy's review ??? I can't seem to find it on his website! >I'm reading an old copy of Next Generation (April 1999) and there is a >good article on car simulations. Within the article there is an >interesting quote from the producer of TOCA and TOCA2 on the physics of >driving games.

>>"The user must feel at one with the car he's driving, and it must >>respond in a way he would expect the real car to, >...which TOCA didn't. Complete lack of understeer will do that to >you. > <snip> I'm 100% with you, Randy. I'd love a touring car sim made with the 'integrity' of a papyrus product. I suspect the lack of sales of the most excellent GPL will have stopped that ever becoming a reality, though. Cheers Mark Reading, UK

With you all the way there Randy. For the TOCA series CodeMasters have always claimed "sim content", while the driving model is in fact halfway and the build up of the game is strictly arcade. I think you did right to review it as a sim game, as after all they claim it is one. Love your comment on Thruxton BTW.... I thought the game just got silly and ended my efforts to beat it cleanly then and there. Jan. ------- ><Snip>

My review is on http://www.digitalsports.com

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>Is this article online ??? If so what's the URL ???? And.... What's the URL >for Randy's review ??? I can't seem to find it on his website! >>I'm reading an old copy of Next Generation (April 1999) and there is a >>good article on car simulations. Within the article there is an >>interesting quote from the producer of TOCA and TOCA2 on the physics of >>driving games.

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Well you actually got a point there... maybe it's the games press who put the sim tagline on the game... I'll have to look at the article (TOCA2 preview in PC Zone)to see who actually said the driving model was going to be far more "realistic" and the game would have much more "sim content". Codemasters PR or the guy from the Zone. I can't help but feel the TOCA license in partly going to waste in their hands though. We've been waiting for a decent touring car sim for years (or at least I have). TOCA2 is alright, but it just doesn't cut it. Jan. ------ >I'm looking at the back of the box right now, and no where does it claim to be a >sim. I don't know how Codemasters is advertising the game, but I believe they >do it more as a "game" than a sim. >-Andrew ><Snip>

What comments on Thruxton? >With you all the way there Randy. For the TOCA series CodeMasters have >always claimed "sim content", while the driving model is in fact halfway and >the build up of the game is strictly arcade. I think you did right to review

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>it as a sim game, as after all they claim it is one. >Love your comment on Thruxton BTW.... I thought the game just got silly and >ended my efforts to beat it cleanly then and there. >Jan. >------- >><Snip>

'It is a simulation of arcade racing' - bloke from Codemasters, some time ago.