GPL Tire Pressures

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>Hi folks. I'm just curious if there's any super fast >Lotus drivers out there who handle tire pressures the same >way I do, which is 19 psi on all 4 tires. Sometimes I'll >stray from that a little bit if one of the tires is >overheating severely, or not warming up, but usually I wind >up with 19 psi all around. I find this makes the car handle >kinda *** on cold tires but much more forgiving once they >warm up. Most people seem to go with about 19 front and 22 >rear, which is why I'm curious.

Mine are very close to yours, 19 front and 20 rear on most setups. I think the reason is that I slide the rear end a lot, so the fronts don't heat up as much, but the rears cook. I just can't figure out an understeering car. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

Aubrey wrote I can relate to that Aubrey. I wondered when my own constant improvement with GPL would end - 1:07s, 1:06s, 1:05s, lower 1:05s! at WG. All the time there were guys going around 2 secs quicker no matter how I improved :(. Now the improvements are hundredths not sufficient to make progress on the quick guys. I can put forward several theories: 1) A magical setup change: I convince myself there is some tweak which may only give me a lap before the engine/tyres explode but will make me go 2 secs faster. I think there is little chance! 2) Sheer lack of talent/technique: NO WAY! - well all right then I suppose it could be true :( 3) GPL physics suit some driver styles better than others: In the same way that some F1 drivers never seem to get the feel for a particular car no matter how they set it up whilst their team mate blitzes them every time, then a move to another team revitalises their performance. Maybe this is the case. 4) Hardware setup: We do not have a level playing field. The performance of GPL on one PC may feel very different on another PC in terms of perceived control feedback (I do not mean force feedback here folks). We know a joystick may be the quickest for some rather than a wheel. Others report major improvements by modifying brake pedal resistance (force not electrical!) I guess in my case it's a combination of the last 3, probably 2 is the most likely if I am truly honest. As for 3, well I think the truly quick guys are simply truly quick, and will adapt to whatever the next physics model is. I do reassure myself that I could be the sim equivalent of Zanardi, struggling in F1 just waiting for a new CART sim to blitz all you guys cos it suits my driving style more than yours. This is wishful thinking. Regarding 4, I'm pretty happy with my set up - I know other guys with same wheel & slower PCs who are quicker (GNasher for one) than me, so its unlikey to be 2 secs waiting to be wiped off by some magical new purchase Setups? Well I've tried radical changes to no avail, so no major benefit to be gained here. So it has to be technique - time to re-evaluate each corner and how best to enter/exit for optimum lap times. There is a great danger in getting into a pattern of braking points, gear changes and not being able to change the pattern to make gains. Maybe I will never find that technique - I do not think it can be taught, it is a feel thing. Which is why GPL is so great - cos you feel the effects. I may have to accept those 2 secs are beyond me, park my Ferrari on the grid & connect up a virtual hosepipe to the exhaust - then you hotshots will feel sorry for me as you blast past with 1:03s on your pitboards... Tony

The one thing you didn't mention is "longevity". It's easy to last a full 9 laps at the Glen. but what about 108 laps? Just ask Mark Seery! he was running very slow laps at the Glen GP back in april. In fact his qualifying lap time was only 1:07.02 and placed 12th on the grid. The pole sitter ran a qualifying lap of (R. Prydden) 1:04.33 .and finnished 1st 2. M. Uren ........1:05.13..5 3. V. Eiland ......1:05.57..3 4. L. Heir ........1:05.71..9 5. M. Carver ......1:05.72..4 6. J. Bierman .....1:05.73..7 7. M. Barlow ......1:05.82..15 8. E. Paddock .....1:06.19..8 9. j. Antley ......1:06.26..6 10. C. Schletter ...1:06.32..14 11. E. Corleone ....1:06.83..12 ---------------------- 12 M. SEERY ........1:07.02..*2* ---------------------- 13 B. Bruce ........1:08.05..10 14 C. Rouleau ......1:09.27..13 15 T. Pitch ........1:14.36..11 Even though he was running these slow laps, He finished in SECOND place completing 106 laps. Just look at all those drivers he beat, 10 drivers. So, Just because some drivers have fast lap times, doesn't mean they can last a real race length. Mike Barlow -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

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> >Hi folks. I'm just curious if there's any super fast > >Lotus drivers out there who handle tire pressures the same > >way I do, which is 19 psi on all 4 tires. Sometimes I'll > >stray from that a little bit if one of the tires is > >overheating severely, or not warming up, but usually I wind > >up with 19 psi all around. I find this makes the car handle > >kinda *** on cold tires but much more forgiving once they > >warm up. Most people seem to go with about 19 front and 22 > >rear, which is why I'm curious. > Mine are very close to yours, 19 front and 20 rear on most setups. I

think the > reason is that I slide the rear end a lot, so the fronts don't heat up as much, > but the rears cook. I just can't figure out an understeering car. > Don McCorkle > Libertarian Motorsports If GPL models the tire pressures similar to N2 which from my experience it does... The reason most people use higher PSI's in the back especially for EARLY in a run is because it actually tightens the car. Those rear tires will heat up slightly faster with more air pressure. However, after the tires heat up it will actually cause the car to become more "loose" in comparison to your car/setup. Note: I am assuming everything on each car is the same except the tire PSI's. Bill / Amish on TEN P.S. I just noticed you say you have a understeering car... Raising the rear tire PSI's COULD help. It could be one of a million different changes that could help...

Why does an overheated tyre give back less grip? Rob Swindells 3rd equal in Goldline Bearing FFord Championship (18 Points); 9 points behind Championship Leader (as of round 4 of 6) "If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than any time before." ~Martin Brundle

>Why does an overheated tyre give back less grip? Because it's made of *** - as heat goes up it "melts", with the surface getting greasy and more prone to damage/blistering. That's also why racing tyres are as thin as possible both in tread and sidewall, to stop excess heat build-up due to hystersis. Cheers! John

>P.S. I just noticed you say you have a understeering car... Raising the >rear tire PSI's COULD help. It could be one of a million different changes >that could help... What I said was I can't figure out an understeering car, My bad, that's not what I meant at all. I should have said I can't understand how people can drive an understeering car. I like 'em loose and wiggly so I can steer with my right foot. Thanks for the help, Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

Your story is very recognizable for me :) Technique is ofcourse the most important of all things. Don't even bother playing with setups untill you know how to drive the best line for each corner. Untill you learn that, and get consistent lap times, it's no use fiddling with setups. I had great difficulty with the 1.1 patch to drive below 1.29 on monza, even 1.29's took me a lot of concentration. I spend an evening working on my setup, drove a few laps, and then it was no problem anymore for me to drive low 1.28's. About the hardware setup: as long as you get constant fps above 25, it shouldn't make much difference compared to fast pc's, perhaps a few tenths because driving with more fps is smoother. The best thing is to compare your driving technique with the technique of faster drivers using SpyGirl and GPLDump. When you feel you've got the technique right, then start playing with your setup. Andre On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:21:00 +0100, "Tony Rickard"

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>Aubrey wrote >> I'm just wondering why I'm still 2-4 seconds off the pace on >> most tracks, and I'm sorta grasping at straws at this point >> :) So if anyone can do 1:03's at the Glen with my kind of >> setup, I'd like to hear from you. If I don't hear from >> anyone, then maybe I should develop some new habits, and >> just learn to drive a more normal setup. Thanks for your >> help! >I can relate to that Aubrey. I wondered when my own constant improvement >with GPL would end - 1:07s, 1:06s, 1:05s, lower 1:05s! at WG. All the time >there were guys going around 2 secs quicker no matter how I improved :(. Now >the improvements are hundredths not sufficient to make progress on the quick >guys. >I can put forward several theories: >1) A magical setup change: I convince myself there is some tweak which may >only give me a lap before the engine/tyres explode but will make me go 2 >secs faster. I think there is little chance! >2) Sheer lack of talent/technique: NO WAY! - well all right then I suppose >it could be true :( >3) GPL physics suit some driver styles better than others: In the same way >that some F1 drivers never seem to get the feel for a particular car no >matter how they set it up whilst their team mate blitzes them every time, >then a move to another team revitalises their performance. Maybe this is the >case. >4) Hardware setup: We do not have a level playing field. The performance of >GPL on one PC may feel very different on another PC in terms of perceived >control feedback (I do not mean force feedback here folks). We know a >joystick may be the quickest for some rather than a wheel. Others report >major improvements by modifying brake pedal resistance (force not >electrical!) >I guess in my case it's a combination of the last 3, probably 2 is the most >likely if I am truly honest. >As for 3, well I think the truly quick guys are simply truly quick, and will >adapt to whatever the next physics model is. I do reassure myself that I >could be the sim equivalent of Zanardi, struggling in F1 just waiting for a >new CART sim to blitz all you guys cos it suits my driving style more than >yours. This is wishful thinking. >Regarding 4, I'm pretty happy with my set up - I know other guys with same >wheel & slower PCs who are quicker (GNasher for one) than me, so its unlikey >to be 2 secs waiting to be wiped off by some magical new purchase >Setups? Well I've tried radical changes to no avail, so no major benefit to >be gained here. >So it has to be technique - time to re-evaluate each corner and how best to >enter/exit for optimum lap times. There is a great danger in getting into a >pattern of braking points, gear changes and not being able to change the >pattern to make gains. >Maybe I will never find that technique - I do not think it can be taught, it >is a feel thing. Which is why GPL is so great - cos you feel the effects. >I may have to accept those 2 secs are beyond me, park my Ferrari on the grid >& connect up a virtual hosepipe to the exhaust - then you hotshots will feel >sorry for me as you blast past with 1:03s on your pitboards... >Tony

:>Why does an overheated tyre give back less grip? : Because it's made of *** - as heat goes up it "melts", with the : surface getting greasy and more prone to damage/blistering. That's : also why racing tyres are as thin as possible both in tread and : sidewall, to stop excess heat build-up due to hystersis. AS one of the Williams engineers (Brian something - I forget what) explained it in a lecture here in York: At low temperatures, the tyres are simply too hard - they're not sticky enough. As the tyres "melt" there's an optimal temperature where they are of exactly the right consistency to stick to the road. Above that temperature they are too "greasy" - they're too moulten and will flow instead of dig in. This also causes excess wear. I guess it's loosely anaglogous to spring settings - too hard (tyres too cold) and you skate over rough surfaces without digging in - too soft and you bounce back out of any dips. [Note - I did say _loosely_ analogous] -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

> >P.S. I just noticed you say you have a understeering car... Raising the > >rear tire PSI's COULD help. It could be one of a million different changes > >that could help... > What I said was I can't figure out an understeering car, My bad, that's not > what I meant at all. I should have said I can't understand how people can > drive an understeering car. I like 'em loose and wiggly so I can steer with my > right foot. > Thanks for the help, > Don McCorkle > Libertarian Motorsports They can/like to drive a understeering car normally because mentally it gives them more control. OR... They like to drive by braking more early into a corner and get on the gas quicker on the exit. My personal choice is I would rather drive a balanced car vs a loose or tight car. If I had my choice of either or... Heheheh, I like a tight (understeer) car early in a race because of all the 1 lap wonders and I want a car that I can have complete control over but would like a loose (Oversteer) car later in the race. Therefore... based on my previous info... That is why you may see people like myself have higher rear tire psi's. It will make the car more pushy early in a run, but "looser" later in the run. Bill / Amish on TEN

I'm exactly the opposite - I can't drive a loose car at all. I need to have the confidence that when I plant the throttle, the rear of the car will keep more or less in line <g> The key to driving an understeering car is to enter the corner at the right speed and accelerate through the corner - if you enter too fast and have to lift then the rear tyres will have too much lateral grip available resulting in the car displaying it's understeering characteristics. Keep accelerating and a well set up understeering car will finish the corner perfectly balanced, with no overt sliding and - most importantly - with excellent exit speed. Cheers, Richard

Well, I appreciate everyone's replies and their attempts to help me. But NOBODY actually said they could turn 1:03's with my kind of setup, so I'm gonna start experimenting with 22 psi on the rear tires. Just as a side note, I did the GPLDump thing- comparing myself with some hotlapper replays, and found that I was losing most of my time midcorner. So I suspect something's going wrong when I make the transition from braking to accelerating, maybe too much understeer. I like a setup that's neutral in all situations, and maybe you just can't get that with the way I was setting up the tires. It was pretty mind blowing to find out that I could accelerate and brake just as effectively as the hotshoes, but was doing something wrong midcorner. Gotta get those Vmin's up. Isn't it great how much discipline GPL requires? There's no other game like it! Once again, thanks for your help. -A * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

> Well, I appreciate everyone's replies and their attempts to > help me. But NOBODY actually said they could turn 1:03's > with my kind of setup, so I'm gonna start experimenting with > 22 psi on the rear tires. As far as I know there are less than 20 people in the world who have done a hotlap in the 1:03's anyway, and that was with low-rider setups that have been outlawed in GPL 1.1! If you're using 1.0, you could try downloading one of those hotlap setups from: http://216.13.117.36/~schubi/fastlaps.htm Or would you consider that cheating?! ;-)

Aubrey when I hear you say you are loosing time mid-corner... That could mean your car is not "hooking" up early enough. When you are getting back on the gas you are probably getting some wheel spin in the rear tires. Try to figure out a way not to get the car too tight (understeer) as to make it harder to drive into the corner, but it seems as if they (hotlappers) are getting a better run off the corners, based on what you are saying. Therefore, it is probable that actually increasing your Rear Tire PSI's may not be your optimum solution, it could actually hurt the acceleration after they heat up. (Get some tire spin on exit). Bill / Amish on TEN Tell me what you think...

I *hate* an understeering car. It probably has something to do with an incident with my mom's 1982 Cutlass Ciera(front-wheel drive). I learned in rear-wheel drive vehicles, and I do NOT like front-wheel drive on snow or ice... I prefer a loose car. I'd much rather BACK into something than hit it head on... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I once read a quote from a European Ralley driver. Paraphrased, it went like this: "Oversteer is when you feel fine and your navigator is scared s***less. Understeer is when your navigator feels fine and YOU are scared s***less." -Chris- ---Two wheels are better ---Proud owner of a 1998 ZX-9R Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

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>Aubrey when I hear you say you are loosing time mid-corner... That could >mean your car is not "hooking" up early enough. When you are getting back >on the gas you are probably getting some wheel spin in the rear tires. Try >to figure out a way not to get the car too tight (understeer) as to make it >harder to drive into the corner, but it seems as if they (hotlappers) are >getting a better run off the corners, based on what you are saying. >Therefore, it is probable that actually increasing your Rear Tire PSI's may >not be your optimum solution, it could actually hurt the acceleration after >they heat up. (Get some tire spin on exit). >Bill / Amish on TEN >Tell me what you think...

Nnnnnn...no. My acceleration looks OK. My top speeds are about right, and GPLdump shows very little time lost when I'm accelerating. To put it more clearly, I'm simply braking too early. This might make you think I don't brake hard enough, but GPLdump shows me slowing down at the same rate as the hotlappers, even when trailbraking. So no problems with my braking technique. The catch is, I wouldn't need to brake so much if I wasn't so slow midcorner. I realize drving style is more important than setup, but I think that if you like a really strange setup, that's an indication of a poor driving style. So in a sense the two go hand in hand. Get used to a new setup, and your driving style just might improve.

I think fast setups will help a lot though. The other night I picked up a setup on VROC. Now I have been strictly a 130 guy at Monza and a devoted Ferrari driver. But I put in a 128.5 in the lotus, which I have driven less than ten times since the final release, within twenty laps. Why? Because I realized that the car was not going to produce a 26 (It's advertised time) the way I was driving it. I made a mistake which turned solid and I had a revelation. I now understand how to drive faster than I did before. I'm not even going to try to explain the technique for two reasons. I think that when you are doing 7's at Watkins like I am, It's not so much that you can't make the setup change as you don't know what to change. Your setup is a result of your driving style. As the setup progresses there is a point where you decide "this is working good", which it very well may be. Just that Wolfgang knows how to do it better and your setup won't work well in that arena. :-) -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico USA