ESPN reports on low attendance for Open Wheel Racing

ESPN SportsCenter is concerned about open wheel racings low attendance and popularity. and Christian Fittipaldi has been severely injured at testing at Gateway.

Just watched RPM 2 night and they said he will miss this weekend's race but should be back for the next one.

Quoted text (15 lines)

> severly? that poor kid, what's he gotta do. > -- > TIM "Calm Down" WHEATLEY. > The Homemade HondaFreek! > Visit the Honda Homepage ! > http://underworld.fortunecity.com/arcadia/509/index.html > or E-Mail the HondaFreek ! > > ESPN SportsCenter is concerned about open wheel racings low attendance > and > > popularity. > > and Christian Fittipaldi has been severely injured at testing at

Gateway.

Man, he was having an awesome season too, he should bounce back though. This thing shouldn't hurt his season, he's way up there. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Adam Zerlin GT Insider Webmaster www.gtinsider.com ------------------------------------------------------------ GT International Championship Organsier http;//spcargt.sports-***.com ------------------------------------------------------------ >Gawd I have been a fan of the guy since he WOWed me at Monaco in 1994, he >drove that damn arrows like hell, same in 1993 actually but I was watching >Damon too much to notice him! >-- >TIM "Calm Down" WHEATLEY. >The Homemade HondaFreek! >Visit the Honda Homepage ! >http://underworld.fortunecity.com/arcadia/509/index.html >or E-Mail the HondaFreek ! >> Just watched RPM 2 night and they said he will miss this weekend's race >but >> should be back for the next one. >> > severly? that poor kid, what's he gotta do. >> > -- >> > TIM "Calm Down" WHEATLEY. >> > The Homemade HondaFreek! >> > Visit the Honda Homepage ! >> > http://underworld.fortunecity.com/arcadia/509/index.html >> > or E-Mail the HondaFreek ! >> > > ESPN SportsCenter is concerned about open wheel racings low >attendance >> > and >> > > popularity. >> > > and Christian Fittipaldi has been severely injured at testing at >> Gateway.

Seems to me I seen an article on the same subject back in Feb., March, April,.. in the SCCA Sports car Magazine talking about the same subject. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Quoted text (7 lines)

>wrote... >> Seems to me I seen an article on the same subject back in Feb., March, >> April,.. in the SCCA Sports car Magazine talking about the same subject. >Do you think F1 will sell out Indy? That's a lot of seats... >--David Cook

Oh yeah, the first one anyway. Tony George stages events and many people go just to attend and couldn't care less about the racing. It will remain to be seen whether or not the nortiously short attention span of the American race fan will put up with the largely processional F1 races. I am not slamming F1, and judging by the last few races, it's getting more exciting by the minute, but I doubt the casual NA fan will get it. If you've seen the track diagram, it isn't much more than a kart track with a fairly interesting banked turn at one end, not really conducive to close racing. I hope I'm wrong and that F1 can gain a foothold in the US again, I just think it's the wrong place. don [|]-(_)-[|]

severly? that poor kid, what's he gotta do. -- TIM "Calm Down" WHEATLEY. The Homemade HondaFreek! Visit the Honda Homepage ! http://underworld.fortunecity.com/arcadia/509/index.html or E-Mail the HondaFreek !

Gawd I have been a fan of the guy since he WOWed me at Monaco in 1994, he drove that damn arrows like hell, same in 1993 actually but I was watching Damon too much to notice him! -- TIM "Calm Down" WHEATLEY. The Homemade HondaFreek! Visit the Honda Homepage ! http://underworld.fortunecity.com/arcadia/509/index.html or E-Mail the HondaFreek ! > Just watched RPM 2 night and they said he will miss this weekend's race but > should be back for the next one. > > severly? that poor kid, what's he gotta do. > > -- > > TIM "Calm Down" WHEATLEY. > > The Homemade HondaFreek! > > Visit the Honda Homepage ! > > http://underworld.fortunecity.com/arcadia/509/index.html > > or E-Mail the HondaFreek ! > > > ESPN SportsCenter is concerned about open wheel racings low attendance > > and > > > popularity. > > > and Christian Fittipaldi has been severely injured at testing at > Gateway.

>ESPN SportsCenter is concerned about open wheel racings low attendance and >popularity. Anybody that watched the IRL race from Dover wouldn't need a report to understand why they were concerned. Judging by the grandstands, there were more cars on the track than in the parking lot. <g> In all seriousness, for anyone that didn't see it, I'd estimate the grandstands were 85% vacant. Tim

wrote... Do you think F1 will sell out Indy? That's a lot of seats... --David Cook

It certainly was pretty crowded at the CART Portland race I attended this year, and no less crowded than it was last year or the year before that, perhaps even more crowded, so I think the road courses do fine as far as attendance goes. I think the crowds are small just at oval races, probably because they have too many seats available and possibly also because, personally I think oval racing is less exciting overall than road course racing (no flames please), I agree that this year we've seen some very exciting oval races, but in general I don't think they are as exciting as road races. Of course the fact that the IRL is classified as "open-wheel" racing, and their general suckiness and low attendance reflects poorly on all American open-wheel racing, so I can see where people are getting worried. I think the IRL and CART are both hurting due to the split and should swallow their pride and find a way to work things out, just as long as that doesn't mean that CART would have to race more oval's than they already do. Hoping that American open-wheel racing can give the NASCAR boys a run for their money in popularity one of these decades, just hope they don't have to switch to ovals to do so. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

Quoted text (12 lines)

>>ESPN SportsCenter is concerned about open wheel racings low attendance and >>popularity. >Anybody that watched the IRL race from Dover wouldn't need a report to >understand why they were concerned. >Judging by the grandstands, there were more cars on the track than in >the parking lot. <g> >In all seriousness, for anyone that didn't see it, I'd estimate the >grandstands were 85% vacant. >Tim

>wrote... >> Seems to me I seen an article on the same subject back in Feb., March, >> April,.. in the SCCA Sports car Magazine talking about the same subject. >Do you think F1 will sell out Indy? That's a lot of seats... I hope not the first year. I'm trying to get tickets :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

I attend every Homestead CART race since it's opening (and the Miami Grand Prix before that while it was being built). I can tell you, the attendance has only grown from what I have seen. Each year the lines for the food get longer and longer :). I didn't see many open seats at all this past race. ------------------------------------------------------------ Adam Zerlin GT Insider Webmaster www.gtinsider.com ------------------------------------------------------------ GT International Championship Organiser [link lost in import: /***.com] ------------------------------------------------------------

Quoted text (33 lines)

>It certainly was pretty crowded at the CART Portland race I attended >this year, and no less crowded than it was last year or the year before >that, perhaps even more crowded, so I think the road courses do fine >as far as attendance goes. >I think the crowds are small just at oval races, probably because they >have too many seats available and possibly also because, personally I think >oval racing is less exciting overall than road course racing (no flames >please), I agree that this year we've seen some very exciting oval races, >but in general I don't think they are as exciting as road races. >Of course the fact that the IRL is classified as "open-wheel" racing, and >their general suckiness and low attendance reflects poorly on all American >open-wheel racing, so I can see where people are getting worried. >I think the IRL and CART are both hurting due to the split and should >swallow their pride and find a way to work things out, just as long as that >doesn't mean that CART would have to race more oval's than they already do. >Hoping that American open-wheel racing can give the NASCAR boys a run >for their money in popularity one of these decades, just hope they don't >have to switch to ovals to do so. >Seeyas on the track. >--John (Joao) Silva >>>ESPN SportsCenter is concerned about open wheel racings low attendance

and

Quoted text (11 lines)

>>>popularity. >>Anybody that watched the IRL race from Dover wouldn't need a report to >>understand why they were concerned. >>Judging by the grandstands, there were more cars on the track than in >>the parking lot. <g> >>In all seriousness, for anyone that didn't see it, I'd estimate the >>grandstands were 85% vacant. >>Tim

Just a guess about low attendance at oval races, maybe people don't think it's safe to go to an open wheel race. A couple of fatal incidents in the past year must certainly have played a role. -- David Reimertz

and Road America is packed every year.... 70,000+ people is a good crowd, no matter what series. People from Chicago and Wisconsin and other states pack the place. Very nice. --Dave -- Dave Schwabe "If you're in control, you're not going fast enough" -- Parnelli Jones The Aussie Toad -- GPL Brabham Page http://users.wi.net/~schwabe > It certainly was pretty crowded at the CART Portland race I attended > this year, and no less crowded than it was last year or the year before > that, perhaps even more crowded, so I think the road courses do fine > as far as attendance goes. > I think the crowds are small just at oval races, probably because they > have too many seats available and possibly also because, personally I think > oval racing is less exciting overall than road course racing (no flames > please), I agree that this year we've seen some very exciting oval races, > but in general I don't think they are as exciting as road races. > Of course the fact that the IRL is classified as "open-wheel" racing, and > their general suckiness and low attendance reflects poorly on all American > open-wheel racing, so I can see where people are getting worried. > I think the IRL and CART are both hurting due to the split and should > swallow their pride and find a way to work things out, just as long as that > doesn't mean that CART would have to race more oval's than they already do. > Hoping that American open-wheel racing can give the NASCAR boys a run > for their money in popularity one of these decades, just hope they don't > have to switch to ovals to do so. > Seeyas on the track. > --John (Joao) Silva > >>ESPN SportsCenter is concerned about open wheel racings low attendance and > >>popularity. > >Anybody that watched the IRL race from Dover wouldn't need a report to > >understand why they were concerned. > >Judging by the grandstands, there were more cars on the track than in > >the parking lot. <g> > >In all seriousness, for anyone that didn't see it, I'd estimate the > >grandstands were 85% vacant. > >Tim

I think the IRL is hurting for heroes. Cart looks very well attended from what Ive seen.

Yup, and looks like the first Chicago GP will have a full crowd too. > I attend every Homestead CART race since it's opening (and the Miami Grand > Prix before that while it was being built). I can tell you, the attendance > has only grown from what I have seen. Each year the lines for the food get

Quoted text (21 lines)

> longer and longer :). I didn't see many open seats at all this past race. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Adam Zerlin > GT Insider Webmaster > www.gtinsider.com > ------------------------------------------------------------ > GT International Championship Organiser > [link lost in import: /***.com] > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >this year, and no less crowded than it was last year or the year before > >that, perhaps even more crowded, so I think the road courses do fine > >as far as attendance goes. > >I think the crowds are small just at oval races, probably because they > >have too many seats available and possibly also because, personally I

think > >oval racing is less exciting overall than road course racing (no flames > >please), I agree that this year we've seen some very exciting oval races, > >but in general I don't think they are as exciting as road races. > >Of course the fact that the IRL is classified as "open-wheel" racing, and > >their general suckiness and low attendance reflects poorly on all American > >open-wheel racing, so I can see where people are getting worried. > >I think the IRL and CART are both hurting due to the split and should > >swallow their pride and find a way to work things out, just as long as that > >doesn't mean that CART would have to race more oval's than they already do.

Quoted text (26 lines)

> >Hoping that American open-wheel racing can give the NASCAR boys a run > >for their money in popularity one of these decades, just hope they don't > >have to switch to ovals to do so. > >Seeyas on the track. > >--John (Joao) Silva > >>>ESPN SportsCenter is concerned about open wheel racings low attendance > and > >>>popularity. > >>Anybody that watched the IRL race from Dover wouldn't need a report to > >>understand why they were concerned. > >>Judging by the grandstands, there were more cars on the track than in > >>the parking lot. <g> > >>In all seriousness, for anyone that didn't see it, I'd estimate the > >>grandstands were 85% vacant. > >>Tim

A real shame... Because the IRL puts on some darned exciting racing, but as you say with only a couple of famous drivers the IRL is hurting, but then again so is cart... Just ask yourself, how many IRL and/or CART drivers can you name? Then ask yourself how many NASCAR drivers you can name?????

I can name a lot more almost all the cart drivers. I can't even name one IRL and maybe two or three NASCAR drivers. Hey and I even live in Atlanta :) so I don't see your point. -- Jeff Murchison JR HTTP://members.tripod.com/grandprixlegends > A real shame... Because the IRL puts on some darned exciting racing, but as > you say with only a couple of famous drivers the IRL is hurting, but then > again so is cart... > Just ask yourself, how many IRL and/or CART drivers can you name? > Then ask yourself how many NASCAR drivers you can name????? > >I think the IRL is hurting for heroes. > >Cart looks very well attended from what Ive seen.

Greg, you are cordially welcome to mine. Even though I am a long-time fan of F1 (and what's left of it) my plans for the race do not include sending a penny to either Tony George or Bernie Ecclestone. I will utilize whatever arcane television rights that are granted to me by Bernie to view not only the race, but also the empty seats surrounding it. And I will, as always, use a combination of PIP and Mute to ignore the endless and repetitive commercials. Note: I DO patronize the sponsors of CART and NASCAR to support these series---F1 seems to have million$ of its own via Bernie. Summary: By the time Tony George gets done presenting the relatively unknown Formula One at The Brickyard, where virtual unknowns race similar-appearing cars once a year and recognized Champions aren't allowed, the potential new American open-wheel racing fan will be even more confused---and join the exodus to Winston Cup. We all lose, except for Tony and Bernie via their hype. Just my fifth of a dime, Eric Ziegler

David Reimertz quoted: By a quirk of fate, I was on a TWA flight on approach to Lambert during the testing, and was watching the cars with great delight. I saw one go into the wall, checked the time later, and it turned out to be CF. Sorry it happened, but gee, I DID miss all three races that weekend while in Key West. Eric Ziegler

Think about it - most of the public's ability to name famous drivers is due to the amount of TV exposure they get. This is not just the racing, but is much more the commercial publicity. You can't walk into a supermarket without seeing a Martin or Labonte or Jarrett life- size standup advertising some sponsoring product. The IRL guys have only the Target and Firestone TV ads going for them. CART has no commercial exposure at all that I have seen lately, and F1 is something that most people know absolutely nothing about. Not to mention USAC, WOL, etc. Within the ranks of active racing fans there are lots of famous drivers in many of the divisions. To the TV executives there are only advertising opportunities and well-sponsored stars. This is what gets communicated to the public. Perhaps with IRL or CART at Nascar ovals it is too much to expect much attendance from traditional Nascar fans. Heck, most Nascar fans don't even attend the racing divisions in Nascar below Winston Cup - watch most truck races and see, or go to a Nascar race featuring the 4-banger compacts. Bristol WC = 130K, truck = 20K, compacts = 1K. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Thankfully I am not on a religious crusade. I just want to see a formula one race. Thanks for your comments though it is quite refreshing to see that I may get some good seats near the pits :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >>>Do you think F1 will sell out Indy? That's a lot of seats... >>I hope not the first year. I'm trying to get tickets :-) >Greg, you are cordially welcome to mine. Even though I am a long-time fan of F1 >(and what's left of it) my plans for the race do not include sending a penny to >either Tony George or Bernie Ecclestone. I will utilize whatever arcane >television rights that are granted to me by Bernie to view not only the race, >but also the empty seats surrounding it. And I will, as always, use a >combination of PIP and Mute to ignore the endless and repetitive commercials. >Note: I DO patronize the sponsors of CART and NASCAR to support these >series---F1 seems to have million$ of its own via Bernie. >Summary: By the time Tony George gets done presenting the relatively unknown >Formula One at The Brickyard, where virtual unknowns race similar-appearing >cars once a year and recognized Champions aren't allowed, the potential new >American open-wheel racing fan will be even more confused---and join the exodus >to Winston Cup. We all lose, except for Tony and Bernie via their hype. >Just my fifth of a dime, >Eric Ziegler

But, if you took away all those lifesize standups of the Nascar guys, and then only allowed Nascar to do the same amount of advertising that CART is doing, it wouldn't be as big as it is now. It's the advertising that mainly did it for Nascar. ------------------------------------------------------------ Adam Zerlin GT Insider Webmaster www.gtinsider.com ------------------------------------------------------------ GT International Championship Organsier [link lost in import: /***.com] ------------------------------------------------------------

Quoted text (34 lines)

> Think about it - most of the public's ability to name famous >drivers is due to the amount of TV exposure they get. This is not just >the racing, but is much more the commercial publicity. You can't walk >into a supermarket without seeing a Martin or Labonte or Jarrett life- >size standup advertising some sponsoring product. The IRL guys have >only the Target and Firestone TV ads going for them. CART has no >commercial exposure at all that I have seen lately, and F1 is something >that most people know absolutely nothing about. Not to mention USAC, >WOL, etc. > Within the ranks of active racing fans there are lots of famous >drivers in many of the divisions. To the TV executives there are only >advertising opportunities and well-sponsored stars. This is what gets >communicated to the public. Perhaps with IRL or CART at Nascar ovals >it is too much to expect much attendance from traditional Nascar fans. >Heck, most Nascar fans don't even attend the racing divisions in Nascar >below Winston Cup - watch most truck races and see, or go to a Nascar >race featuring the 4-banger compacts. Bristol WC = 130K, truck = 20K, >compacts = 1K. >> A real shame... Because the IRL puts on some darned exciting racing, >but as >> you say with only a couple of famous drivers the IRL is hurting, but >then >> again so is cart... >> Just ask yourself, how many IRL and/or CART drivers can you name? >> Then ask yourself how many NASCAR drivers you can name????? >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Right. That's where Bill France has excelled, and IRL and CART have fallen down. These organizations don't have a clue on managing the PR and advertising business, even though they have some really good sponsors for the race teams. Of course, they can't do much advertising for Kool or Marlboro - that lets out some of the big guys right away. Apparently, most sponsors are not willing to feature low-attendance racing drivers in their commercials. Catch 22..... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Nascar Drivers I can name: Gordon, Earnhardt. CART Drivers I can name: Franchitti, Montoya, Andretti, Moore, Fittipaldi, Kanaan, Papis, Blundell, Vasser, de Ferran, Fernandez, Herta, Castro-Neves. Of course, I'm probably not typical :) Sky > A real shame... Because the IRL puts on some darned exciting racing, but as

Quoted text (13 lines)

> you say with only a couple of famous drivers the IRL is hurting, but then > again so is cart... > Just ask yourself, how many IRL and/or CART drivers can you name? > Then ask yourself how many NASCAR drivers you can name????? > >I think the IRL is hurting for heroes. > >Cart looks very well attended from what Ive seen.

> Think about it - most of the public's ability to name famous > drivers is due to the amount of TV exposure they get. This is not just > the racing, but is much more the commercial publicity. You can't walk > into a supermarket without seeing a Martin or Labonte or Jarrett life- > size standup advertising some sponsoring product. The IRL guys have > only the Target and Firestone TV ads going for them. Target in the IRL? IRL has those "You had to be there" commercials with Eddie "I'll kill you" Cheever and Scott "Man I screwed up in 95" Goodyear. You haven't seen the Montoya/Vasser/Zanardi Target commercials? Or how about the Toyota commercials? Or how about the Degree antiperspirant commercial? Or the one with that one guy (don't know who the hell he is) sitting next to an Eagle? That's bound to change with the US GP and Sly Stallone's movie which will be released just before it. Superspeedway was a great film, but they never really said "This is CART, watch us." During a senior field trip for my AP Chem class a little over 2 years ago my class went to see some movie about Yosemite at the OmniMax in Chicago and there was a trailer for Superspeedway, but even though there was only 1 other racing fan in my class every person except for the teacher was disappointed that we saw the movie about Yosemite. :-) CART has a product that I personally think if marketed right could blow NASCAR away. The cars are 50mph faster, have much better acceleration, and are much more agile...I guess only in US motorsports will fans enjoy watching inferior cars; unlike any other sport. Just try watching a CART race then watch a NASCAR race, those cars look like slugs inching down the track compared to CART. I really don't think CART races any NASCAR ovals. If you are gonna say the 2 Penske tracks are NASCAR ovals I think you are pretty off because just before the split CART was packing 100,000 in Michigan....now it's probably a third of that. California is a huge draw for CART...I know in the first year the CART attendance was higher than the Winston Cup. The problem here is terrible marketing from CART and terrible coverage from ESPN and ABC. If the folks at ABC were so concerned about CART and the IRL they would show more live races, have less commercials (to draw bigger TV audiences, was you have them then you overdo the commercials), and treat it equally as Winston Cup. The best thing that could happen is that once CART and the IRL get back together they make major changes in management, and then get TV contracts with multiple broadcasting companies like NASCAR so that there is competition and each company will want to give better coverage. -- Jon Van Ginneken "I try to do my best every day. If, at the end of the day I know I did the best job I could do, I am satisfied." --Alex Zanardi

Well guys the old joke goes something like this. Go to a Winston Cup race and the fans know the names of all the drivers, go to a CART race and the drivers know the names of all the fans. The Mocker

>Nascar Drivers I can name: Gordon, Earnhardt. You're missing a lot if you're unaware of*** Trickle :-) Eric Ziegler

Driver recognition and advertising are results, not causes. NASCAR is more popular than open wheel because the racing is better. The cars are more equal and the format leads to a lot of close racing. More drivers are known because more drivers have a chance of winning. More advertising is done because more people like NASCAR. Somebody posted about how much faster the CART cars are. F1 shows how this could actually hurt, by making car technology *** and making passing hard. I happened to watch the F1 German GP. Ridiculous. Could anyone imagine saying to Jeremy Mayfield "Jeremy, please pull over and let Rusty win the race because he has a shot at the Championship". Jeremy would think he'd been put on another planet. And Frentzen, 3rd in the championship, saying he had no chance of winning it in the press conference. Why? Because he doesn't have a Ferrari or a McLaren? If a NASCAR driver said such an uncompetitive thing, he'd be fired immediately. bob

True, to some degree. How do you account for the rather extreme popularity of F1 in Europe - even exceeding that of touring cars there? The only reason that seems to fit is nationalism, just like World Cup soccer. What do you think, bob? > >But, if you took away all those lifesize standups of the Nascar guys, and > >then only allowed Nascar to do the same amount of advertising that CART is > >doing, it wouldn't be as big as it is now. It's the advertising that mainly

Quoted text (20 lines)

> >did it for Nascar. > Driver recognition and advertising are results, not causes. > NASCAR is more popular than open wheel because the racing is better. > The cars are more equal and the format leads to a lot of close racing. > More drivers are known because more drivers have a chance of winning. > More advertising is done because more people like NASCAR. > Somebody posted about how much faster the CART cars are. F1 > shows how this could actually hurt, by making car technology *** > and making passing hard. I happened to watch the F1 German GP. > Ridiculous. Could anyone imagine saying to Jeremy Mayfield "Jeremy, > please pull over and let Rusty win the race because he has a shot at > the Championship". Jeremy would think he'd been put on another > planet. And Frentzen, 3rd in the championship, saying he had no > chance of winning it in the press conference. Why? Because he > doesn't have a Ferrari or a McLaren? If a NASCAR driver said such an > uncompetitive thing, he'd be fired immediately. > bob

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> Somebody posted about how much faster the CART cars are. F1 >shows how this could actually hurt, by making car technology *** >and making passing hard. I happened to watch the F1 German GP. >Ridiculous. Specifically, this is the great paradox of modern F1 aerodynamics. The more aerodynamically efficient you make the car by itself, the worse it is effected by turbulence. You don't see this problem as much in Champcar road racing for three reasons: a) champcars use iron brakes not c/c b) Chapmcars still have huge wings relative to F1 c) the venturis on Champcars are less effected by turbulence than the stepped bottom/diffuser combination in F1. I think CART's growing problems are that it's stuck in the philosophical middle as far as promoting a series goes. On one end of the scale you have F1. Like it or not, F1 has been a championship intended just as much for engineers as it is for drivers. On the other hand you have NASCAR. The France family has done an excellent job of creating a series that revolves almost entirely around the drivers. Very little room for technical innovation. Then you have CART, which has always hovered in the middle. I think as F1 and NASCAR stretch this scale further in each direction, it's making it harder and harder for CART to hang is promotional hat on any specific thing. Could anyone imagine saying to Jeremy Mayfield "Jeremy, -- | "Instead of letting the moon be the Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

> Specifically, this is the great paradox of modern F1 aerodynamics. The > more aerodynamically efficient you make the car by itself, the worse it is > effected by turbulence. You don't see this problem as much in Champcar > road racing for three reasons: a) champcars use iron brakes not c/c I'm not sure I understand this, carbon brakes save big on uncentralized weight and have a higher temperature threshold. What do either of these have to do with making passing hard (hint: they don't decrease braking distances as is often implied). - George

Have yet to see one exciting IRL race, period. IRL: Um, Boat I think, Arie...um, Goodyear? ....Cheever CART: Unser, Andretti, Fittipalidi, Franchitti, Tracy, Gordon, Montoya, Ferandez, deFerran, Papis, and on. Gordon, Labonte, Labonte, Earnhardt, Burton, Burton, Martin, Jarret, um...

The only racing TARGET commercials I have ever see are CART based with the Ganassi/Target racing team and Jimmy Vasser/MOntoya. Dont know what you are smoking. Not to mention I've seen many more CART commercials than NASCAR of late and heard them on the radio than NASCAR (in Chicago). Theatres here even have a 30 second CART commercial too. So perhaps you just live where you dont get any form of media. :)

True, but it blends the best of both into one. Its a driver's championship, but its not so technicalogically backwards as NASCAR, but not so much an engineer's championship as F1. It has BOTH ovals and road courses so it tests the skills of the drivers to win on a variety of tracks, it also tests the teams in perparing cars for a variety of tracks. Its got a longer season than F1, but its not as long as drawn out as NASCAR is. However, like F1, you can't go to your local Chevy or Ford dealer and buy the car that your favorite driver's ride is based off either. Big deal. :?

It is? Says who? That may be YOUR opinion, but its not everyone's opinion. Say what? No, I don't think so. Even if I don't like IRL, both it and CART tightly control what can and can not be done with the cars and they come out pretty even even given the number of different choices. However, unlike NASCAR who changes rules every couple weeks it sometime seems, CART doesn't change unless its absolutely necessary for safety or performance reasons. Uh, what?! You aren't paying too much attention to CART lately are you? Record number of DIFFERENT drivers are winning races this year. The same can't be said for NASCAR where its usually the same old drivers over and over again winning. Um, no. Advertisting is done by NASCAR because they, like any other business, wishes to promote their product. They may have more money to blow on advertisting than other forms of racing because they have more fans or advertisting dollars, etc, but its not just because more people like NASCAR. Mms. CART cars are fast. However, CART also limits the technology in use by the manufacturers unlike F1 which often times goes to the extremes with technology. However, ROAD RACING is about it being hard to pass. It takes skill to get around a guy on a tight and twisty track so its more finese about how and when and the battle leading up to the pass than say on an oval. And your later comments may be true about F1, but they dont wash in CART like they dont wash in NASCAR either. How many times have we seen this and last year both Franchitti and Tracy getting together with each other on trakc, and they are teammates. Please pull your head out.

Target has Jimmy Vasser and Juan Monotoya. Texaco has had Fittipalidi, Andretti, Andretti and then some Nascar stars. Firestone has had Scott Pruet. There are some others but I'm drawing a blank now.

Terry thinks I have a point and writes: I really can't figure it out. Except they hold about one race/year/country and people like the festival of it all? Chris, OTOH, thinks I'm totally hosed: I said: >> The cars are more equal and the format leads to a lot of close racing. Chris - On the competitive point. This is where I think _you_ need to get real. Check comparitive stats on number of different winners, margains of victory (this is a big difference), number of different leaders per race, numbers of lead changes, percentage of cars finishing on the lead lap. It ain't close. You can reasonably differ whether this is caused artificially by the NASCAR rules, such as reliable low technology, yellow flags, and handicapping makes as necessary. However, people seem to like it. And most of the lower teams have pretty much the same hardware as Gordon/Martin/Jarrett. CART may be close, but not that close. NASCAR is totally about drivers and teams, rather than technology. I do agree with you about road racing. Any sim shows that road racing is harder than ovals. My favorite NASCAR races are the road races. And you are right that CART is head and shoulders above F1. I've attended all three in person. CART in Denver was exceptional in putting on a good show. Lots of support races and allowed ordinary people to buy pit passes for access to the pits and race teams. But the NASCAR race at Richmond kept me rivetted to the action the whole race. The 1968 GP at Watkins Glen was fun. (I'm just an old fart, Chris) And the 1990ish GP at Phoenix sucked big time, in every regard. bob

Steve. If you got lucky once a year.. You'd be popular also. dw -- World's Largest On-Line Performance Catalog Site http://www.martelbros.com How To Go Fast.Com http://www.howtogofast.com World Powerslide Dirt Racing Association (WPA) http://www.ivga.com WHRA - Sim Drag Racing - $20,000 Prize Pool http://www.whra.com >: True, to some degree. How do you account for the rather extreme >: popularity of F1 in Europe - even exceeding that of touring cars >: there? The only reason that seems to fit is nationalism, just like >: World Cup soccer. What do you think, bob? >To some degree. But it doesn't explain a stadium full of German GP fans >cheering an Irish and Finnish driver across the line. Ferrari seems to >transcend boundaries. >Stephen

: True, to some degree. How do you account for the rather extreme : popularity of F1 in Europe - even exceeding that of touring cars : there? The only reason that seems to fit is nationalism, just like : World Cup soccer. What do you think, bob? To some degree. But it doesn't explain a stadium full of German GP fans cheering an Irish and Finnish driver across the line. Ferrari seems to transcend boundaries. Stephen

Good point, Chris. Of course, outside of ESPN or SVN or race broadcasts I very seldom see any of these except the Texaco commercials with Mario. Of course, we don't see some of the WC drivers in commercials too often, either. It helps to be a great driver who looks good and can sound like a pro announcer, regardless of type of racing. Remember the John Andretti auto parts store commercials where he never gets to say anything? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> > only the Target and Firestone TV ads going for them. > Target in the IRL? Geez, I'm embarrassed. This comes with being an old fart who discovered racing in the 1950's.... Yeah, missed the Target again.... But, you see those commercials mostly on ESPN, SVN, etc., and usually only during races (of any type). The 1968 movie "Grand Prix" was a tremendous commercial success, still watched today by race fans (even forgiving its technical / artistic license). F1 still did not benefit greatly in the US from that. We'll see if Stallone's movie makes a difference, but it will be a miracle if it is any better than "Days of Thunder" in representing the sport. Very, very true. Same comparison applies when watching an F1 race on Sunday, followed by almost any other kind of racing. How exciting is watching a WC race at Martinsville on TV? It really is more fun to watch when you are in the stands there, since TV can't convey the competition or background action very well, and there sure isn't much raw speed involved (there is a lot of speed for a track like that - a champ car could probably not lap it much faster). My point exactly. True, but what about IRL at C***te, Atlanta, and Dover? Nascar truck race qualifying gets bigger crowds. I don't count Homestead or Indy as "Nascar tracks" because Nascar races are not their primary venues, although pretty successful. The whole thing is driven by television ratings - the networks are not major risk-takers, so if something does not do well financially on the first broadcast, they aren't real e***d about doing it again. However, since they do continue to broadcast open-wheel racing, they are making some money doing it - just not as much as the WC races. The contracts will depend upon how much money CART/IRL can bring to the broadcasters. The Indy 500 is always a good investment, and that will help. Still, the networks are not competing for coverage quality or they would not continue to use some of the announcers they do. They are only trying to compete with the other programs during the race time slot. That, of course, is why they will cut away to golf from racing but not from baseball. Terry Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

writes: Yeah, I was disappointed by Frentzen's comments also. He has talent, he has a 'decent' car, and ANYTHING can happen to the leaders... Just ask Michael... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

As I alibi'd to somebody else a while ago, Chris - oops! Another senior moment (to be expected from somebody that got involved with racing in the 1950's). Duh! ;o} Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Oh come'on lets not turn r.a.s. into a slugout war over which series is the best, the real point of this discussion was about TV ratings. If you watch CART you'll see that the cars are also just as evenly matched, and I think during the last broadcast they mentioned that there had been 9 different winners in the last 11 races, paraty in the teams is not what makes NASCAR so popular, like somebody already mentioned I think NASCAR just does an awesome job marketing its series, and from what I hear the NASCAR fans are also very brand loyal, actually buying the products of who sponsors of their favorite team, this loyalty also attracts lots more sponsorship and allowing more money to keep the teams and marketing going and so on. Many of us follow all the racing series, while I don't watch as much NASCAR as I do CART and F1, I still recognize what NASCAR does right, you don't have to hate all the other series to be a fan of one of them (with the exception of the IRL which I hate because they ruined the Indy500 :-) Lets not turn r.a.s. into r.a.s.yourfavoriteseries.advocacy Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

Quoted text (18 lines)

> Driver recognition and advertising are results, not causes. >NASCAR is more popular than open wheel because the racing is better. >The cars are more equal and the format leads to a lot of close racing. >More drivers are known because more drivers have a chance of winning. >More advertising is done because more people like NASCAR. > Somebody posted about how much faster the CART cars are. F1 >shows how this could actually hurt, by making car technology *** >and making passing hard. I happened to watch the F1 German GP. >Ridiculous. Could anyone imagine saying to Jeremy Mayfield "Jeremy, >please pull over and let Rusty win the race because he has a shot at >the Championship". Jeremy would think he'd been put on another >planet. And Frentzen, 3rd in the championship, saying he had no >chance of winning it in the press conference. Why? Because he >doesn't have a Ferrari or a McLaren? If a NASCAR driver said such an >uncompetitive thing, he'd be fired immediately. > bob

<g> The point was, I don't watch Nascar, just like I don't watch CART oval races. I watched some of the NASCAR Sears Point race, but the cars are too big, slow and cumbersome for my tastes ... Sky > >Nascar Drivers I can name: Gordon, Earnhardt. > You're missing a lot if you're unaware of*** Trickle :-) > Eric Ziegler

Relatively unknown???????? Last time I checked F1 is shown in close to 100 countries and I believe Cart is over 50 now, stock cars is no where near that high. Yes its more popular in the US, but there are many more millions of race car fans all over the world. The 2 best race cars drivers in the last 20 years were/are in F1. Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumaker. As for attendence at F1 race, the track will be completly setup different with less seats, so no comparison can be made. I like all 3 series, but i say stock car drivers "race" a car, while F1 and CART "drive" a car and thats the big difference most people dont understand.

>Last time I checked F1 is shown in close to 100 countries and I believe Cart is >over 50 now, stock cars is no where near that high. Yes its more popular in >the US, but there are many more millions of race car fans all over the world. I think this is true. World Wide F1 has a larger following. After all F1 is the WORLD championship while Cart & Nascar is just the US championship (cart using washed up F1 drivers). Look at how Zanardi is stinking this year while Montoya (Williams test driver) is essentially kicking the American Cart series. Actually I think Alain Prost goes between Senna & Schu. Also Schu only got "good" after Senna was no longer on the scene and the rest of the competition basicly sucked. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Quoted text (10 lines)

> : True, to some degree. How do you account for the rather extreme > : popularity of F1 in Europe - even exceeding that of touring cars > : there? The only reason that seems to fit is nationalism, just like > : World Cup soccer. What do you think, bob? > To some degree. But it doesn't explain a stadium full of German GP fans > cheering an Irish and Finnish driver across the line. Ferrari seems to > transcend boundaries. > Stephen

And don't forget it was against a Mclaren with a Mercedes engine!!!! Rafael

I think the CART series lets the drivers compete more. In F1 it seems like you have to have the best team to get results. McLaren or Ferrari are the two teams right now. Infact it has always been that way. Ferrari during the mid 70s. Lotus in the 78, McLaren dominated in the late 80s. You can be the absolute driver, but without the best team you are an also ran. In Cart its not that way. Juan may be very fast and have won some races, but he has been beaten. Cart this year alone has produced some great racing. Overall I would rather watch it then F1. Well I think Niki Lauda rates up there with Prost, Schuy and Senna. Also F1 comp has always been great drivers with great teams against also rans. I think that is the problem with F1. Dave

Gentlemen, It's not rocket science. The reason NASCAR is so much more popular than CART or F1 is that it really doesn't require a process of thought to watch it. No two cars are painted the same so you can easily pick out who's leading without having to go to the touble of paying attention to the race or reading those little numbers on the sides of the cars. The drivers have normal, good-old-boy names like Darryl, Dale and Bobby instead of furrin' names like Mika or Ralf or Juan. Fans don't need an attention span because the cars are always in sight -- relieving them of the effort of having to keep track of who's in what position. The cars make nice, round, heavy, chest-pounding V8 sounds instead of that *** screaming sound -- ("Gawd, they scream like a wet child, Martha!"). The Sponsors are easily recognizable and are non-threatening, like The Family Channel, M&Ms and Bud, instead of arcane and scary sponsors like Rothmans or TAG-Huer. The cars are cars you see every day. Most fans could actually afford to buy a Ford or Chevy -- maybe even new -- unlike a Ferrari or McLaren. Finally, there's the "family" atmosphere at the track. None of that hoity-toity snobbery of the F1 set, mind you. You've got the same big bellied loudmouths, squalling brats and shrieking shrews you can find in any government subsidised housing complex in this great country of ours. NASCAR is to racing what the Jerry Springer show is to television. But you know what? I don't care. I still love it. -- Bob Curtin Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ "If God had intended man to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

Who's watching what,,,, New York, N.Y., Aug. 3 The biggest surprise of the weekend was the fact that the American Le Mans Series pulled a 1.2 rating with a 3 share for the second consecutive weekend on NBC, a very consistent performance that should encourage both NBC and ALMS personnel. The NASCAR Busch Series ran on TNN, opposite the NHRAs Northwest Nationals Qualifying on espn2, and pulled a 1.4 rating with a 3 share. This weekend should see some big numbers coming out of NASCARs Brickyard 400., while CART gets another live network shot with their Tenneco Automotive Grand Prix of Detroit on the Belle Isle temporary circuit. NASCAR Busch (TNN) 1.4 rating / 3 share / 1.0m households (hh) NASCAR Trucks (ESPN) 1.0 rating / 3 share / 0.8m hh ALMS (NBC) 1.2 rating / 3 share / N/A hh* ASA (TNN) 0.6 rating / 1 share / 0.4m hh USAC Silver Bullet (TNN) 0.5 rating / 2 share / 0.4m hh USAC Sprints (espn2) 0.5 rating / 1 share / 0.3m hh NHRA Qualifying (espn2) 0.4 rating / 1 share / 0.3m hh NHRA Semifinals (espn2) 0.8 rating / 2 share / 0.5m hh NHRA Finals (espn2) 0.8 rating / 1 share / 0.5m hh John Gardner

Quoted text (11 lines)

>>The contracts will depend upon how much money CART/IRL can bring to the >>broadcasters. The Indy 500 is always a good investment, and that will >>help. Still, the networks are not competing for coverage quality or >>they would not continue to use some of the announcers they do. They >>are only trying to compete with the other programs during the race time >>slot. That, of course, is why they will cut away to golf from racing >>but not from baseball. >What's fascinating to me is how NBC's trying to get into the racing craze. >Now I'm glad that the American LeMans series gets nationally televised, but >do you think that gets ratings like CART or WC? No, but it just goes to

show >that if it's on a major network, American's will start to watch it... >Too bad F1's on FSN... >-- >*****The WINGMAN*****

Apparently, it doesn't require much of one to post to usenet either. You've incriminated yourself into sounding like enough of a redneck that I'll leave everything else you said alone. Except for one thing... The sound of an F1 car is far FAR from "*** sounding." Matter of fact, I'm almost certain that F1 cars are the loudest piston powered cars on Earth with the exception of the nitro fueled drag racing categories. Advanced apologies if you were being sarcastic, but I didn't pick that up from your post. -- | "Instead of letting the moon be the Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

What's fascinating to me is how NBC's trying to get into the racing craze. Now I'm glad that the American LeMans series gets nationally televised, but do you think that gets ratings like CART or WC? No, but it just goes to show that if it's on a major network, American's will start to watch it... Too bad F1's on FSN... -- *****The WINGMAN*****

I was just joking. It was a parody on a parody. Sorry it didn't come across.

Quoted text (26 lines)

> >Gentlemen, > >It's not rocket science. > > The reason NASCAR is so much more popular than CART or F1 is that it > >really doesn't require a process of thought to watch it. No two cars are > Apparently, it doesn't require much of one to post to usenet either. > You've incriminated yourself into sounding like enough of a redneck that > I'll leave everything else you said alone. Except for one thing... > >who's in what position. The cars make nice, round, heavy, chest-pounding > >V8 sounds instead of that *** screaming sound -- ("Gawd, they scream like > >a wet child, Martha!"). The Sponsors are easily recognizable and are > The sound of an F1 car is far FAR from "*** sounding." Matter of fact, > I'm almost certain that F1 cars are the loudest piston powered cars on > Earth with the exception of the nitro fueled drag racing categories. > Advanced apologies if you were being sarcastic, but I didn't pick that up > from your post. > -- > | "Instead of letting the moon be the > Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let > Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

-- Bob Curtin Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ "If God had intended man to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

> What's fascinating to me is how NBC's trying to get into the racing craze. > Now I'm glad that the American LeMans series gets nationally televised, but > do you think that gets ratings like CART or WC? No, but it just goes to show > that if it's on a major network, American's will start to watch it... > Too bad F1's on FSN... > -- > *****The WINGMAN***** Below are the ratings from the last two weeks that AMLS races were on NBC. I'm not a TV expert but it seems to me that the AMLS is doing pretty well for a new series. It looked to me like the ratings are similar to those of CART and are only really beat by WC (and if my memory hasn't totally failed the WC race from week ending July29 was on of the best of the season). These number came from www.RACER.com mike miller (Ratings posted Aug5) NASCAR Busch (TNN) 1.4 rating / 3 share / 1.0m households (hh) NASCAR Trucks (ESPN) 1.0 rating / 3 share / 0.8m hh ALMS (NBC) 1.2 rating / 3 share / N/A hh* ASA (TNN) 0.6 rating / 1 share / 0.4m hh USAC Silver Bullet (TNN) 0.5 rating / 2 share / 0.4m hh USAC Sprints (espn2) 0.5 rating / 1 share / 0.3m hh NHRA Qualifying (espn2) 0.4 rating / 1 share / 0.3m hh NHRA Semifinals (espn2) 0.8 rating / 2 share / 0.5m hh NHRA Finals (espn2) 0.8 rating / 1 share / 0.5m hh (Rating posted July29) NASCAR Winston Cup (TBS) 5.1 rating / 4 share / 3.9m households (hh) NASCAR Busch (EPSN) 1.4 rating / 4 share / 1.1m hh CART FedEx Championship (ABC) 1.2 rating 4 share / 1.2m hh (1.6/4 overnight) ALMS (NBC) 1.1 rating / 3 share / 1.1m hh (1.2/3 overnight) ARCA (TBS) 0.9 rating / 3 share / 0.7m hh NASCAR Trucks (ESPN) 0.8 rating / 2 share / 0.6m hh USAC Sprints (espn2) 0.5 rating / 1 share / 0.4m hh ASA (TNN) 0.4 rating / 1 share / 0.3m hh CART Lights (espn2) 0.3 rating / 1 share / 0.2m hh SCCA Trans-Am (TNN) 0.2 rating / 1 share / 0.2m hh

Quoted text (7 lines)

>What's fascinating to me is how NBC's trying to get into the racing craze. >Now I'm glad that the American LeMans series gets nationally televised, but >do you think that gets ratings like CART or WC? No, but it just goes to show >that if it's on a major network, American's will start to watch it... >Too bad F1's on FSN...

American Lemans televised? Dang, I missed it. I really have to push that rock off me more often...<g> Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Quoted text (13 lines)

>Who's watching what,,,, >New York, N.Y., Aug. 3 The biggest surprise of the weekend was the fact >that the American Le Mans Series pulled a 1.2 rating with a 3 share for the >second consecutive weekend on NBC, a very consistent performance that should >encourage both NBC and ALMS personnel. >The NASCAR Busch Series ran on TNN, opposite the NHRAs Northwest Nationals >Qualifying on espn2, and pulled a 1.4 rating with a 3 share. >This weekend should see some big numbers coming out of NASCARs Brickyard >400., while CART gets another live network shot with their Tenneco >Automotive Grand Prix of Detroit on the Belle Isle temporary circuit.

Lemme ask a dumb question - How does the 'ratings' system work? How does it take into account people who tape races to watch them at a later time? I taped the Brickyard 400 while I went to watch the races on Bell Isle... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

It is a fact in Media that the # of people who tape an XYZ show in television is the same %, whenever the channel and/or the type of show. So per example, there is the same % of people who taped the Brickyard race than there is who taped the CART Race, of course relative to their rating. I can't really say how high that % is, I simply don't remember it. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

says... Unfortunately, just when they start building some interest, they go away for over a month... --jhb