CART sim, food for thought

Hello, There have been some discussing lately about that CART should pay Papy to do a sim, not the other way. Then I just came up with an idea. AFAIK NASCAR is sanctioning the NROS series, what if CART did the same thing. CART "persuade" Papy to make the greatest CART sim ever and then starts an online series, that would also be promoted on cart.com or maybe the races. <dream mode on> It is a fact that some of the CART drivers plays racing sims, what about guest appearences <dream mode off> It would be a bit more interesting than the CART Fantasy league that is going on on cart.com. Food for thought ? -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

<DREAM ON> If all these recent rumblings about a CART/IRL reunification deal or some type of engine equivalency formula to allow both to run at Indy actually bear fruit, a well-timed new CART/IRL open-wheel sim could very well become the biggest thing since NASCAR2. A reunification of sorts would renew the interest in open-wheel racing among race fans everywhere, I think. If a well-done open-wheel sim were to hit the market at about the same time would be a blockbuster if it was done right. Combine that with good marketing and your suggestions about a sanctioned on-line leage AND guest appearances by actual drivers, and I think CART and the IRL could begin to give NASCAR a run for the money. Much as I hate to say it, I dream of a unified open-wheel series consisting of a Road/Street Championship Division (CART) and an Oval Championship Division (IRL). Teams could race whatever races they wanted in whichever division, and in addition to a single overall champion based on combined points, there would also be divisional champions in the R/S and Oval divisions. The strength and fan appeal of a setup like this might be enough to make NASCAR and F1 tremble in a few years. </DREAM OFF> -- JB http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

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>Hello, >There have been some discussing lately about that CART should pay Papy to do a >sim, not the other way. >Then I just came up with an idea. AFAIK NASCAR is sanctioning the NROS series, >what if CART did the same thing. CART "persuade" Papy to make the greatest >CART sim ever and then starts an online series, that would also be promoted on >cart.com or maybe the races. <dream mode on> It is a fact that some of the CART >drivers plays racing sims, what about guest appearences <dream mode off> >It would be a bit more interesting than the CART Fantasy league that is going >on on cart.com. >Food for thought ? >-- >Olav K. Malmin >remove spam when replying

<DREAM ON> I wish Ubisoft would make a CART racing game using the MGPRS2 engine. Of course there could be no ovals (the F1RS engine doesn't do banking on tracks). But I think it would still be a cool game (not as good as the one you guy's are dreaming about), and it would not cost Ubisoft alot of money to develop it. <DREAM OFF>

NO WAY. Thats what makes CART so damn fun is the fact that drivers MUST (they are forced to) excel on a variety of circuits from temporary road courses up to superspeedways (only thing missing are 1/2 ovals which these cars really wouldn't work on). And why in the world would F1 and NASCAR tremble by CART/IRL (without George or Mehl, both morons) circuit that was basically two series that resembled a) openwheels running all road/street courses just like F1 but in turbo powered cars, b) an openwheel oval series competing on many of the same tracks as NASCAR and is currently doing not all that well. No, if I was F1 or NASCAR I'd just laugh. IRL is not that unique, its basically NASCAR with fewer drivers and in openwheel "Indy"-style cars. Only thing it has is the Indy500 to make it unique, big deal. CART on the other hand IS unique. F1 doesn't do ovals, What other major racing series does both ovals, road courses and street courses all in the same season? Thats right, only CART. Bring back the teams, or at least the better teams from IRL, and the Indy500 and it would only help make CART more unique. Oh, and btw...overall champion? That wouldn't mean anything John, especially since you'd end up having for the most part two different sets of drivers/teams running each branch of your combined IRL/CART series but also totally different tracks. There is no way you can compare them then, just like you really can't compare an F1 champ to a CART champ or NASCAR champ (you can, but to do so is rampant stupidity.) as there is not any sort of common factor to compare them against. Thankfully, its just a dream. Ugh.

tracks).<< A CART sim without ovals would be cack! It's like not bothering with Full Course Yellow's ...who on earth would release a CART sim like that!? :-) Rob Swindells 4th in Goldline Bearing FFord Championship (12 Points); 8 points behined Championship Leader (as of round 3 of 6)

<dream on> I hope your message was full of sarcasm, as no real *** simracer would want the crappy Ubisoft game engine to be created for a CART simulation. We would rather wait and have Papyrus doing it with the GPL Game engine, since IIRC they still have a CART license until 2001 <dream off> -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:36:24 GMT,

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>> I wish Ubisoft would make a CART racing game using the MGPRS2 engine. ><dream on> >I hope your message was full of sarcasm, as no real *** simracer would >want the crappy Ubisoft game engine to be created for a CART simulation. We >would rather wait and have Papyrus doing it with the GPL Game engine, since >IIRC they still have a CART license until 2001 ><dream off>

I agree. I had even rather have an upgraded version of the ICR2 engine than the F1RS/MGPRS 'engine'. Actually, an updated ICR2, kind of like Papy is doing with the upcoming Nascar sim, would be very, very cool, IMO. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * post in haste, repent at your leisure.

Doesn't even have to be from Papyrus.... as long as its a good quality simulation of CART racing.

Someone who had a dream of making CART a street/road course only series? :)

As a 'European'/Brit, I would rather see Papy develop either a CART sim or modern F1 sim as the follow on to GPL. But hey, since Papy is primarily US as far as I know, I guess they've got to do NASCAR as well (Shame ;) ). Since NASCAR 3 is next, then I would like to see any of the following next: 1. GPL 2 - 1976-ish season 2. Indy Car 3(?) - Follow on to the previous Indy Car sims 3. GP3 'rival'. I actually wouldn't mind which really, but CART does tempt me. Actually, given the GP3 seems to be happening, EVENTUALLY, I guess Papy should stick to CART or GPL type sims. Ohh well, thats my two pence, sorry two cents :) I'm sure whatever Papy did after NASCAR 3, and as long as it used the GPL engine (or its successor), it would be pretty damn good. Gavin Please remove the RXSUEJ before replying by email. ***** Posted via the UK Online online newsreader ***** Go to http://www.ukonline.co.uk to find out about other online services we offer our subscribers.

On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:42:36 -0500, "Chris Schletter" >Doesn't even have to be from Papyrus.... as long as its a good quality >simulation of CART racing. Isn't that an oxymoron?

No. I seem to remember that GP2 was a very good simulation of F1 and was not done by Papyrus. Its possible that other developers could step up to the plate and offer up something of equal or better than what Papyrus could do. After all, before the problems with GTI, it appears from all reports that TAR was going to be a very good simulation (of course we really will never know). Also reports are that both GP500 and AMA Superbike done by Microprose and Motorsims respectively are quite excellent sims. And there is hope for Rally Championship. So its not all do or die by Papyrus. > On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:42:36 -0500, "Chris Schletter" > >Doesn't even have to be from Papyrus.... as long as its a good quality > >simulation of CART racing. > Isn't that an oxymoron?

Well, you'll probably be waiting awhile, look at how long the GPL patch took. Look at how long it takes Papy to create a new game. Nascar 3 is nothing more than an updated Nascar 2. I wouldn't expect a CART sim from Papy by 2001. Thats just too quick for those guy's. To be fair, there games are the best, when they do get around to finishing them. If Ubisoft were to do a CART game, it would only take 6 months to a year, if it were based on the MGPRS2 engine. In my opinion it would be a bigger success in the US than MGPRS2 / F1RS. As far as which would be best, of course the Papy sim would be way better, but I would rather have a decent CART game than none at all. And sorry, if it ain't 3D accelerated, it ain't worth playing (my opinion, flame away). I didn't spend all my money on a computer to play games from the early 90's.

Hmm, you can compare CART champion to F1 champion. Cart champion is maybe a good driver and the F1 champion is almost certainly a very good driver ( i can't say that F1 champ is certainly a very good driver because of D. Hill being a F1 champion ). Or did you mean championship ( otherwise you have to explain what champ means, BTW i'm not native english speaker ). Borut

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> > Much as I hate to say it, I dream of a unified open-wheel series > > consisting of a Road/Street Championship Division (CART) and an Oval > > Championship Division (IRL). > NO WAY. Thats what makes CART so damn fun is the fact that drivers MUST > (they are forced to) excel on a variety of circuits from temporary road > courses up to superspeedways (only thing missing are 1/2 ovals which these > cars really wouldn't work on). > And why in the world would F1 and NASCAR tremble by CART/IRL (without

George > or Mehl, both morons) circuit that was basically two series that resembled > a) openwheels running all road/street courses just like F1 but in turbo > powered cars, b) an openwheel oval series competing on many of the same > tracks as NASCAR and is currently doing not all that well. No, if I was F1

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> or NASCAR I'd just laugh. > IRL is not that unique, its basically NASCAR with fewer drivers and in > openwheel "Indy"-style cars. Only thing it has is the Indy500 to make it > unique, big deal. CART on the other hand IS unique. F1 doesn't do ovals, > What other major racing series does both ovals, road courses and street > courses all in the same season? Thats right, only CART. Bring back the > teams, or at least the better teams from IRL, and the Indy500 and it would > only help make CART more unique. > Oh, and btw...overall champion? That wouldn't mean anything John,

especially > since you'd end up having for the most part two different sets of > drivers/teams running each branch of your combined IRL/CART series but also > totally different tracks. There is no way you can compare them then, just > like you really can't compare an F1 champ to a CART champ or NASCAR champ > (you can, but to do so is rampant stupidity.) as there is not any sort of > common factor to compare them against. > Thankfully, its just a dream. Ugh.

let's just say Damon is a almost great driver - but very good. Certainly better than you can ever dream of getting. btw I think i'd mention it's great that no one mentions CPR as it isn't worth mentioning - oops, I mentioned it ;))

> > Cart champion is maybe a > > good driver and the F1 champion is almost certainly a very good driver ( i > > can't say that F1 champ is certainly a very good driver because of D. Hill > > being a F1 champ My opinion: The CART-champion is maybe driving a good car and the F1 champion is almost certainly driving a very good car (I can't say that the F1 champ is certainly driving a very good car because of Benetton being the car of a F1 champ). My point: in F1 it is more important that wherever else to have the right car. That's why that good drivers such as Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Hill etc became champion and that other good drivers such as Fisichella, Alesi, Alboreto etc. did not become champion. greetings, Han ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Han Monsees Ornstein Laboratorium kamer 028 tel: 030-2532328 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I have a plan so cunning that you can put a tail on in and call it a weasel" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't give up the hope that papy will do a updated CART after NASCAR3. IMHO a updated CART 2000 just like N3 will do perfectly (although using a updated GPL engine would be the ultimate dream). Between our league members (IGPS2) we had a discussion lately about the e***ment the different major racing series provide and I think almost all of them agreed that you can see the best racing and the best variety of tracks in CART. It may not have the "Elite"-feel to it, but it's exciting as hell. Elkhart Lake, Mid Ohio and Laguna Seca are the Tracks that F1 is racing in my dreams.

Care to tell me how? They don't race each other. They don't race on any of the same tracks. They don't have the same competition. They race two fairly different types of cars. Other than both F1 and CART run open wheel cars and both circuits have road and street courses, they really aren't similiar enough to be able to truly compare CART and F1 champs, except through perhaps how their respective champions/drivers due when they switch series.

Yup. However, most of the CART cars are very close in performance that its more about driver factor, pit performance and overall team performance than solely about the cars themselves. Thats not to say the cars dont make a difference or that certain combinations dont reign supreme for a year or so. :)

CART Sim Features Sheet Important ones denoted with * All tracks* Good but easy to use Track Editor All cars (none fictional)* Fantasy Tracks 8^) GPL Physics or N3 if not GPL* All teams (tobacco and *** if possible)* native RENDITION support*** drafting* 3d***pits* 3d Physics engine that simulates true CART handling* Resolutions like 800x600 and 1024x768* Excellent car damage model so that no two crashes look alike* Realistic flip effects,like GPL and not Andretti Racing (boo) Comprehensive car setups, including springs, shocks, camber, weight jacker on ovals, static ride height, dampers, rebounds, bump stops, etc. * Realistic effects like bottoming out* Realistic debris that you can run over and damage your car on Random tire blowouts* Oil and other fluids from engine failures* Fire (highly unlikely this will be allowed by CART)* Realistic wall types and wall effects (Armco barriers do more damage than concrete, tire walls do less damage than concrete, tire walls cause car to get airborne and flip more than concrete and armcos, etc.)* Realistic gravel trap effects (Come on, you know you wanna do an Andretti at Mid-Ohio, admit it...)* Improved Paintkit* realistic sounds actually digitally recorded* animated pit stops* area in pit road that can be drivin off into the infield to get to victory lane..or garage* realistic***pit that has hand on wheel like GPL* better frame rates/3d acceleration/1024x768 resolution* better engine, way more realistic damage to the car, the way the damage is spread across the track in real life...fliping catchin air on other tires* better smoke,skid marks and racing groove*, possible damage of the catch fencing* RED FLAGS* animated workers on the track after a wreck...and if possible ambulances or REAL tow-trucks* marks on the walls after a hit, animated flagmen* more options to change on the car in garage full field of cars* all the current tracks ( if possible...Indianapolis, since it rightfully is CART's) * realistic lookin part-time road courses like with the closed off streets and stuff* fire,fuel and oil leaks, (causin slippery race track)* possible damage to the pit wall..* animated OPPONENT pit stops* more realistic AI cars* weather changes like durin the race, rain, wind, etc* possible use of rain tires, and racing in the rain (regardless of if there was rain that season or not*)

We can dream there....haven't seen any good or easy Track Editors yet. :) Yup, a must to have all the various manufacturer's represented. No way. Perhaps throw in some tracks that CART doesn't race at anymore like Cleveland or Loudon, or perhaps some tracks that IndyLights or Toyota Atlantic race on like Road Atlanta. Physics that rival GPLs. However, it MUST have superior collision detection. Teams shouldn't be a problem. Paintjobs, at least to me since Papyr includes a paintkit normally and it appears artists are better on the net than at Papy themselves, are not really that big of deal. HOWEVER, its imperative that they allow people to race online with their own paintjob and have a feature like Q2 and other games have to "download" any new paintjobs (even N2's paintjobs were relatively small file sizes so would not take much space or download time for even all 24 to 28 cars). Personally I couldn't care. Rendition is dead. Direct3D should be targeted as the main rasterizer simply because the broadest spectrum of 3d cards runs it and runs it well. Then perhaps proprietary support for Glide and maybe Rendition, although if they go with 32 bit colors, etc then those two APIs are out of luck. OpenGL should only be used if they have plans to port it to say the MacOS. Thats sorta comes out of the physics engine. Works in GPL. GPL has them, I'm surprised screenshots for N3 dont have them. But yes, 3D ***pits are important. Whats this, third request for this? :) Heh? GPL does 800x600 up through at least 1600xwhatever. Perhaps you need to get a new video card so you aren't limited to those resolutions. :) A nice feature, however I'd settle for excellent collision detection. Well, some of the collisions and effects in GPL aren't too great. Sort of a given. :) Again, sort of a given. Would be nice touch for single player. Online there is enough debris, called the internet, already. :) Random breakdowns have been in N2, NR99, ICR2, GPL, etc....:) How many times have you seen a CART car catch on fire? Not too often, and even when it does, unless its an oil line that catches fire, you don't see it because it burns clear. So sorta pointless. :) Definetly. Definetly. Screw the paintkit. Nobody uses it. Ask any of the artists that did N2/NR99/ICR2/ICR1/NR1 and see how many used the paintkit. I know I never did, always used photoshop and paintshop pro. Yeah. Yes. However, no 2d flat bitmap animations. Thats yesterday, this is today...use 3D polygon figures for heaven's sake. Better frame rates? Mms.....at least in GPL its not the graphics engine thats causing problems with framerates. and the list keeps repeating itself. :?

Well, maybe by the time Papyrus does a CART sim Indianapolis will be back on the schedule <ironic grin> Since this was never part of Papyrus's mentality to put a track editor with their titles I don't see this happen, of course everybody would dream of that. Soon you might see some 3rd-party track editors who are more user friendly and create TRK and 3DO's, but that's the closest we will get ;( In today's era of ***, all cars is not anymore something we have to assume. Maybe Pensky will not want to license their chassis, or Mercedes their engine. Bull Run ;-D It will be using the new game engine Im absolutly sure if it's ever done. Nascar sims are Papyrus and Sierra's Money maker, other sims are created for a more strict market like us, so they can take the chance to put the new game engine, since the PC will be well enough to make it run without any problem in 2years+. Read above about licensing I do not think that a future title by Papyrus will anymore support Rendition-Ready rasterizers anymore. Those card can support D3D and OpenGL. It's the end of an era, but you really think that in almost 1-2years people will still be running 4meg V2200 Rendition cards ? :) Or a Carpentier at Elkhart Lake ? :) Since Papyrus is far from changing their file architecture, the *.MIP structure will stay, so you don't really need a Paintkit, us the gamers will create 3rd-party utilities for that. Anything can be painted now, there's no limitation in whatever title (N1, Icr2, N2, GPL., etc..). Most of the stuff in the list are little tiny options that add little to the gameplay (deformable catch fence) or features enhanced (AI, graphics, physics, etc..). Of course we are speculating on something that might never happen :( -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

8 megs for me. Papy forced us to buy Rendition cards to fully experience their games, and now they abandon us. Rendition is NOT dead. Just in hiatis. We will be back with the new v4400 card soon (I hope) with embedded ram and we will take over the world. (The 3d *** world that is)

Forced people ? Ah cmon.. The only titles where Rendition is the only solution for 3d acceleration was SODA:Off-Road and IndyCar Racing 2. Both look crappy without a Rendition card now. But GPL ? Glide and OpenGL does a great job. Nascar2/NR99 ? Glide isn't that bad neither ! Nascar 3 ? Ah you see.. Glide and d3D. Go ahead and continue to buy Rendition card, they still do good d3D and OpenGL :-) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

You forget that Nascar 2 initially only had Rendition support. So that was 3 sims that were Rendition only, and then N99 and GPL continued with a rendition rasturizer. The games looked terrible in SVGA compared to 3d rendition. So of course were went to buy rendition cards.

Subject: CART sim, food for thought

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>Date: Wed, 28 July 1999 07:29 AM EDT >Hello, >There have been some discussing lately about that CART should pay Papy to do >a >sim, not the other way. >Then I just came up with an idea. AFAIK NASCAR is sanctioning the NROS >series, >what if CART did the same thing. CART "persuade" Papy to make the greatest >CART sim ever and then starts an online series, that would also be promoted >on >cart.com or maybe the races. <dream mode on> It is a fact that some of the >CART >drivers plays racing sims, what about guest appearences <dream mode off> >It would be a bit more interesting than the CART Fantasy league that is going >on on cart.com. >Food for thought ? >-- >Olav K. Malmin >remove spam when replying >I think you may be on to a great idea but how would you develope imto

reality??? John...TRU

> In today's era of ***, all cars is not anymore something we have to > assume. Maybe Pensky will not want to license their chassis, or Mercedes > their engine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they have a CART licence don't that mean they also get to use all the teams as well (without the teams having anything they can do to deny it)? The problem with GPL was that there was no CART or Bernie who had the such commercial rights at the time, and hence they had to ask each team, driver, track etc individually. Also with only 27-28 cars max in a CART race, it wouldn't be as much of a framerate problem as the 43 cars for a NASCAR field :-) -- Arne Martin

>> Realistic gravel trap effects (Come on, you know you wanna do an Andretti >at >> Mid-Ohio, admit it...)* >Or a Carpentier at Elkhart Lake ? :) Or a Brundle at Australia...?<g> Yes, I *know* we're talking CART... __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Can't do it...the CART license is locked up by Microsoft, Papyrus and Sega. dave henrie

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> <DREAM ON> > I wish Ubisoft would make a CART racing game using the MGPRS2 engine. Of > course there could be no ovals (the F1RS engine doesn't do banking on > tracks). But I think it would still be a cool game (not as good as the one > you guy's are dreaming about), and it would not cost Ubisoft alot of money > to develop it. > <DREAM OFF> > > <DREAM ON> > > If all these recent rumblings about a CART/IRL reunification deal or > > some type of engine equivalency formula to allow both to run at Indy > > actually bear fruit, a well-timed new CART/IRL open-wheel sim could > > very well become the biggest thing since NASCAR2. A reunification of > > sorts would renew the interest in open-wheel racing among race fans > > everywhere, I think. If a well-done open-wheel sim were to hit the > > market at about the same time would be a blockbuster if it was done > > right. Combine that with good marketing and your suggestions about a > > sanctioned on-line leage AND guest appearances by actual drivers, and > > I think CART and the IRL could begin to give NASCAR a run for the > > money. > > Much as I hate to say it, I dream of a unified open-wheel series > > consisting of a Road/Street Championship Division (CART) and an Oval > > Championship Division (IRL). Teams could race whatever races they > > wanted in whichever division, and in addition to a single overall > > champion based on combined points, there would also be divisional > > champions in the R/S and Oval divisions. The strength and fan appeal > > of a setup like this might be enough to make NASCAR and F1 tremble in > > a few years. > > </DREAM OFF> > > -- JB

Good idea, but doesn't Nascar have a No-Compete clause with Papyrus for NROS?? ie no other Online service may be made by Papy that would detract from NROS. Not 100% sure on that, but I seem to remember something like that when NROS was first starting. dave henrie

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> Hello, > There have been some discussing lately about that CART should pay Papy to do a > sim, not the other way. > Then I just came up with an idea. AFAIK NASCAR is sanctioning the NROS series, > what if CART did the same thing. CART "persuade" Papy to make the greatest > CART sim ever and then starts an online series, that would also be promoted on > cart.com or maybe the races. <dream mode on> It is a fact that some of the CART > drivers plays racing sims, what about guest appearences <dream mode off> > It would be a bit more interesting than the CART Fantasy league that is going > on on cart.com. > Food for thought ? > -- > Olav K. Malmin > remove spam when replying

Perhaps it's silly, but I would like to see the driver climb out of the car after a retirement. I always found it strange in GP2 to see the driver just disappear. Stephen

Hmmm, if I look at your feature list, with all those graphics like animated pitstops, debrise, 1024x786....how much FPS do you expect with a Rendition? I know my Rendition can't handle 1024x768 in GPL.... Beside, do you want a developer to get the most from the newest hardware, or some 4 year old hardware? Hey, it is so easy to create a feature list, I would like a lifelike full FF simulation on my ZX-80.... Remco

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> >You forget that Nascar 2 initially only had Rendition support. So that was 3 > >sims that were Rendition only, and then N99 and GPL continued with a rendition > >rasturizer. The games looked terrible in SVGA compared to 3d rendition. So of > >course were went to buy rendition cards. > Hmmm, if I look at your feature list, with all those graphics like > animated pitstops, debrise, 1024x786....how much FPS do you > expect with a Rendition? I know my Rendition can't handle 1024x768 > in GPL.... > Beside, do you want a developer to get the most from the newest > hardware, or some 4 year old hardware? Hey, it is so easy to create a > feature list, I would like a lifelike full FF simulation on my > ZX-80....

^^^^^ Great computer, Imagine GPL on 80x50 resolution with a framerate of about 0.1 :) My biggest problem is that we actually sold our trusty ZX-81 bought in 82. I think it is acutally worth something today. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

I'd sure love to know what type of licenses MS, Papy and Sega have..if they are exclusive for a certain period of time, etc. I think Papy's license is coming to an end next year....been awhile, but I remember reading a press from Papy about the time they release CART Racing remake of ICR2 that they had secured a CART license to 2001...but then again, its been awhile. ANyone know?

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> Can't do it...the CART license is locked up by > Microsoft, Papyrus and Sega. > dave henrie > > <DREAM ON> > > I wish Ubisoft would make a CART racing game using the MGPRS2 engine. Of > > course there could be no ovals (the F1RS engine doesn't do banking on > > tracks). But I think it would still be a cool game (not as good as the

one > > you guy's are dreaming about), and it would not cost Ubisoft alot of money

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> > to develop it. > > <DREAM OFF> > > > <DREAM ON> > > > If all these recent rumblings about a CART/IRL reunification deal or > > > some type of engine equivalency formula to allow both to run at Indy > > > actually bear fruit, a well-timed new CART/IRL open-wheel sim could > > > very well become the biggest thing since NASCAR2. A reunification of > > > sorts would renew the interest in open-wheel racing among race fans > > > everywhere, I think. If a well-done open-wheel sim were to hit the > > > market at about the same time would be a blockbuster if it was done > > > right. Combine that with good marketing and your suggestions about a > > > sanctioned on-line leage AND guest appearances by actual drivers, and > > > I think CART and the IRL could begin to give NASCAR a run for the > > > money. > > > Much as I hate to say it, I dream of a unified open-wheel series > > > consisting of a Road/Street Championship Division (CART) and an Oval > > > Championship Division (IRL). Teams could race whatever races they > > > wanted in whichever division, and in addition to a single overall > > > champion based on combined points, there would also be divisional > > > champions in the R/S and Oval divisions. The strength and fan appeal > > > of a setup like this might be enough to make NASCAR and F1 tremble in > > > a few years. > > > </DREAM OFF> > > > -- JB

I dunno...Sierra is supposedly going to have N3 on its own *** system, so I'm not sure.

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> Good idea, but doesn't Nascar have a No-Compete clause with > Papyrus for NROS?? ie no other Online service may be made by Papy > that would detract from NROS. Not 100% sure on that, but I seem > to remember something like that when NROS was first starting. > dave henrie > > Hello, > > There have been some discussing lately about that CART should pay Papy

to do a > > sim, not the other way. > > Then I just came up with an idea. AFAIK NASCAR is sanctioning the NROS series, > > what if CART did the same thing. CART "persuade" Papy to make the greatest > > CART sim ever and then starts an online series, that would also be promoted on > > cart.com or maybe the races. <dream mode on> It is a fact that some of the CART > > drivers plays racing sims, what about guest appearences <dream mode off> > > It would be a bit more interesting than the CART Fantasy league that is going

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> > on on cart.com. > > Food for thought ? > > -- > > Olav K. Malmin > > remove spam when replying

I believe that CART champ is a good driver, F1 champ is on the team with the most money. JB > Hmm, you can compare CART champion to F1 champion. Cart champion is maybe a > good driver and the F1 champion is almost certainly a very good driver ( i > can't say that F1 champ is certainly a very good driver because of D. Hill > being a F1 champion ). Or did you mean championship ( otherwise you have to

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> explain what champ means, BTW i'm not native english speaker ). > Borut > > > Much as I hate to say it, I dream of a unified open-wheel series > > > consisting of a Road/Street Championship Division (CART) and an Oval > > > Championship Division (IRL). > > NO WAY. Thats what makes CART so damn fun is the fact that drivers MUST > > (they are forced to) excel on a variety of circuits from temporary road > > courses up to superspeedways (only thing missing are 1/2 ovals which

these > > cars really wouldn't work on). > > And why in the world would F1 and NASCAR tremble by CART/IRL (without > George > > or Mehl, both morons) circuit that was basically two series that resembled

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> > a) openwheels running all road/street courses just like F1 but in turbo > > powered cars, b) an openwheel oval series competing on many of the same > > tracks as NASCAR and is currently doing not all that well. No, if I was > F1 > > or NASCAR I'd just laugh. > > IRL is not that unique, its basically NASCAR with fewer drivers and in > > openwheel "Indy"-style cars. Only thing it has is the Indy500 to make

it > > unique, big deal. CART on the other hand IS unique. F1 doesn't do ovals, > > What other major racing series does both ovals, road courses and street > > courses all in the same season? Thats right, only CART. Bring back the > > teams, or at least the better teams from IRL, and the Indy500 and it would

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> > only help make CART more unique. > > Oh, and btw...overall champion? That wouldn't mean anything John, > especially > > since you'd end up having for the most part two different sets of > > drivers/teams running each branch of your combined IRL/CART series but > also > > totally different tracks. There is no way you can compare them then,

just > > like you really can't compare an F1 champ to a CART champ or NASCAR champ > > (you can, but to do so is rampant stupidity.) as there is not any sort of > > common factor to compare them against. > > Thankfully, its just a dream. Ugh.

I believe when he said overall champ, he meant that the drivers would race in BOTH series but if you just wanted to race in one, you could still win a champ in that. So you basically have 3 different series. One for oval drivers, one for road drivers, one for people that want to drive both. Basically we already have something like this. We have IRL, F1, and CART. I suppose bringing them together under one name could help them pool their efforts to grab the spectators but leaving them how it is would also be fine. I wouldnt mind letting IRL die instead of CART trying to use its last resources keeping it alive. IRL is a small man's dream to make him feel worth something. I'll leave it at that. JB

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> > Much as I hate to say it, I dream of a unified open-wheel series > > consisting of a Road/Street Championship Division (CART) and an Oval > > Championship Division (IRL). > NO WAY. Thats what makes CART so damn fun is the fact that drivers MUST > (they are forced to) excel on a variety of circuits from temporary road > courses up to superspeedways (only thing missing are 1/2 ovals which these > cars really wouldn't work on). > And why in the world would F1 and NASCAR tremble by CART/IRL (without

George > or Mehl, both morons) circuit that was basically two series that resembled > a) openwheels running all road/street courses just like F1 but in turbo > powered cars, b) an openwheel oval series competing on many of the same > tracks as NASCAR and is currently doing not all that well. No, if I was F1

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> or NASCAR I'd just laugh. > IRL is not that unique, its basically NASCAR with fewer drivers and in > openwheel "Indy"-style cars. Only thing it has is the Indy500 to make it > unique, big deal. CART on the other hand IS unique. F1 doesn't do ovals, > What other major racing series does both ovals, road courses and street > courses all in the same season? Thats right, only CART. Bring back the > teams, or at least the better teams from IRL, and the Indy500 and it would > only help make CART more unique. > Oh, and btw...overall champion? That wouldn't mean anything John,

especially > since you'd end up having for the most part two different sets of > drivers/teams running each branch of your combined IRL/CART series but also > totally different tracks. There is no way you can compare them then, just > like you really can't compare an F1 champ to a CART champ or NASCAR champ > (you can, but to do so is rampant stupidity.) as there is not any sort of > common factor to compare them against. > Thankfully, its just a dream. Ugh.

On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:22:47 -0500, "Chris Schletter" >> Hmm, you can compare CART champion to F1 champion. they really aren't I don't even think this comparison is valid because it depends so much on what team you drive in F1. Look at what has happened to Jacques, drives with a top team and wins the campionship, drives with a new team and can't even finish a race. I think one of the biggest differences between F1 and CART is that in F1 it is about 50% car, 50% driver and in CART it is about 30% car, 70% driver. In F1 we get to watch 2 or 3 teams compete, wihile the rest is just window dressing. In CART you have had 12 races with 9 different winners so far this year. I guess there is another difference, even though I love F1, CART is more fun to watch. Randy To email me remove the "u"s

Before you mentioned native rendition support for the next cart game if they ever do it. But at 1024x768 that rendition card would only do like 5fps, so why bother? Now unless rendition comes with a new card, but they bailed on the V3300. And the V4400 is an unknown situation right now. Both Voodoo4 and NV10 will be out before V4400. Both cards will be fast enough to handle anything thrown at them. I suprised anyone still runs a rendition card, bahahahaha, let me guess you still have like a P133 or something? Though I give rendition credit for going after embedded DRAM, but who knows when a card from them will come out using this, it could be never as with the V3300. Art Stealth Racing http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html

writes: I'd agree with that. It seems that F1 is MUCH more technically driven than any other major racing series. After all, we KNOW Villeneuve and Zanardi are good drivers. However, they're currently struggling in F1 on 'lesser' teams. I'd guess that if Zanardi were in a McLaren or Ferrari, his season would be a LOT different... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Someone with my full support - I hate ovals :) Chris

<< that CART doesn't race at anymore like Cleveland Errr ... CART raced at Cleveland about a month ago.

And Viper Racing has a physics model 2nd only to GPL in terms of driving realism - certainly much better than ICR2. Maybe MGI will do a CART sim next ... Chris > No. I seem to remember that GP2 was a very good simulation of F1 and was > not done by Papyrus. Its possible that other developers could step up to > the plate and offer up something of equal or better than what Papyrus could

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> do. After all, before the problems with GTI, it appears from all reports > that TAR was going to be a very good simulation (of course we really will > never know). Also reports are that both GP500 and AMA Superbike done by > Microprose and Motorsims respectively are quite excellent sims. And there > is hope for Rally Championship. So its not all do or die by Papyrus. > > On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:42:36 -0500, "Chris Schletter" > > >Doesn't even have to be from Papyrus.... as long as its a good quality > > >simulation of CART racing. > > Isn't that an oxymoron?

> << that CART doesn't race at anymore like > Cleveland > Errr ... CART raced at Cleveland about a month ago. Not anymore. Unless things change, the Cleveland race will be a modified IRL oval, (flat!) and 'probably' CART will fill the spot with a date at Road Atlanta dave henrie

how come I never see a CART race at Sebring? I know they test there! Is it too bumpy? If so, then why the heck would they test there if it's too bumpy? I guess to work with springs and shocks or whathaveyou. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Adam Zerlin GT Insider Webmaster www.gtinsider.com ------------------------------------------------------------ GT International Championship Organsier http;//spcargt.sports-***.com ------------------------------------------------------------ >> << that CART doesn't race at anymore like >> Cleveland >> Errr ... CART raced at Cleveland about a month ago. > Not anymore. Unless things change, the Cleveland >race will be a modified IRL oval, (flat!) and 'probably' >CART will fill the spot with a date at Road Atlanta >dave henrie

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> how come I never see a CART race at Sebring? I know they test there! Is it > too bumpy? If so, then why the heck would they test there if it's too > bumpy? I guess to work with springs and shocks or whathaveyou. > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Adam Zerlin > GT Insider Webmaster

That, and probably from a description I've heard recently of the pit area, the Sebring track isn't the most Sponsor Friendly place. Kinda old. I think I was reading a Euro car mag, that had a report on Sebring. They went on and on about how the track has slowly been upgraded with better facilities, but that the pit area was still pretty much like it was 30 years ago. Thats just a guess mind you. dave henrie

Not to mention the track is just BORING.