N3 or N2000

Why no talk about Nascar 2000?

1) N2000 doesn't exist anymore, it's N3 now ;) 2) It's not based on the GPL game engine, so people care less 3) We have GPL, so anything less is irrelevant for us mostly ;) 4) Papyrus thinks N3 is something out of National secret, compared to other companies who offer plenty of screenshots, videos, sounds, previews, PR, etc.. (hmm Motorsims, Europress and Microprose for GP500) I just don't understand that in a period where Papyrus could very fast (with the upcoming 4-5 real sims (not using an 6+year old game engine) loose the #1 spot as leader of the racing simulation market, they do not promote their titles. IMHO having little marketing experience they should, because I know many who will already buy those other sims instead of Papyrus ones, just because of the information on the net). Maybe they fear us, oh well :( -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

>> Why no talk about Nascar 2000? >1) N2000 doesn't exist anymore, it's N3 now ;) >2) It's not based on the GPL game engine, so people care less Only a small minority care less. There are many many more people that don't like or run GPL and are waiting for the next nascar sim from Papy. Besides that, if including the "superior" physics of GPL means that we also get flipped over when swapping paint with another car, I personally don't want anything to do with it. Flips in today's Nascar races are very few and far between. Only for you Euro or Canadian guys... I'd love to see more info about it, especially since we're getting relatively close to the most recently announced release date of "sometime in October". Because *Sierra* is responsible for promoting Papy's titles, not Papy, and I don't think Papy is in any immediate danger of losing their #1 spot as leader of the racing sim market. Hell, they have the best selling racing sim ever (Nascar Racing 2), and GPL in their product lineup. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2 http://www.paddedwall.org/igps2/igps2.html North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html Super X Philes http://members.home.net/kap/superx/superx.html If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Quoted text (11 lines)

> >> Why no talk about Nascar 2000? > >1) N2000 doesn't exist anymore, it's N3 now ;) > >2) It's not based on the GPL game engine, so people care less > Only a small minority care less. There are many many more people that > don't like or run GPL and are waiting for the next nascar sim from Papy. > Besides that, if including the "superior" physics of GPL means that we > also get flipped over when swapping paint with another car, I personally > don't want anything to do with it. Flips in today's Nascar races are > very few and far between.

Oh no, the #1 misunderstanding of all time. GPL physichs in a Nascar sim is not the same as a Nascar acting like a 1967 F1 car. It means that the sim would had been so much more realistic to real Nascar racing. The car would never flip if you don't put it in a situation that it would flip in real life. I'm going to buy it anyway. I'm really looking forward to race ovals multiplayer. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

<yawn> Nascar, boring. But oh well. As its been stated a million times before, its not really the new physics that appear in GPL that makes the cars so hard to drive, its the 67 GP cars themselves. A lot of horsepower in relatively light chassises, with tires that were extremely hard and had limited grip (great brakes though, but its the tires that were again the sore point and lead to loss of braking power), and absolutely no aerodynamics to speak off. Now, contrast that with a beast of a Nascar with about 300-400hp more, the latest in aerodynamics to glue it to the road, modern tire technology for both traction and braking power, etc and they are totally different animals. The physics is just going to make the "feel" of what the car does more real, not necessarily make it harder to drive. Heh? Sorry, not all Americans are diehard Nascar racing fans so it'd be much appreciated if you don't make such sweeping generalizations. If you believe the latter, then you haven't been paying much attention to whats going on in the computer racing world. Motorsims is gearing up to produce two very viable simulations and Microprose is bringing out GP500 and GP3. Yet, all Papyrus is doing is revamping an old game with some new technology?

Once again, a misconception about the GPL physics engine being used for a NASCAR. Well, by the physics engine, we don't mean that a stock car will handle like a 1967 GP car. We don't mean that it will flip over if you touch wheels or some other highly unlikely situation. But that it will have 3d physics like those used in GPL to simulate the handling of a 3000 pound Winston Cup stock car with roughly 700 horsepower. Those 3d physics will enhance the realism to the extreme with every little factor used, such as suspension travel, body roll, and other things you can't simulate in a 2 dimensional environment. Thank you for the rash generalization... I am in "NASCAR country", living in Kentucky, yet I still I am not a diehard NASCAR fan. I actualy prefer the CART series anyday over NASCAR. But, I'll take what realistic racing sim I can get pretty much. And well, Grand Prix Legends is my favorite sim of all time so far. Not because I used to watch racing in the 60s, hell, I wasn't even alive then, but because of how much fun it is to race those cars on the edge! Also, by playing GPL, I have gained a respect for the old GPs and the drivers. Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited

Really ? You checked out the Nascar boards in the past few months ? Im sorry but many people simply do not care much for the addition of N3, and learned their lesson from NR99 on that aspect. Those are the people who all saw the N3 movie and what could be possible with those cars. They are not stupid. You should really check what those people say on webboards instead of saying this, IMHO. Also, the Z-axis in racing is part of the deal, accept it. If you flip well it's because of laws of physics. Don't be scared about it, it's a reality. But it's not the point that we care. We want the superior physics in GPL, not for the flips, but for the physics itself. The car loading into the corners, suspension working through the corners, touching the curbs, etc... Because a GPL car is not a stock-car. If the situation appears in reality where it should flip, I do not see the problem with the same thing happening in it's simulation. I know many of us (hmm like me), who will just download a replay, and still drool after all those months with GPL ;-D No. Im talking about rec.autos.simulators here. Americans in this newsgroup are included, and if you look at the global opinion of this newsgroup GPL is the only sim we actually care at the moment. Sure, I know it's Sierra. But that doesn't mean they can promote themselves the products. I don't see why people like Mr. Matson don't involve themselves a little more here about N3. You do not need Sierra's marketing approval for every message on this newsgroup, or screenshot you post on the website IMHO. Papyrus has their own marketing staff I guess ? Let's see ahead : Motorsims AMA Superbike Motorsims CAN-AM Europress Rally Championship Microprose Gp500 Microprose Grand Prix 3 Papyrus Nascar Racing 3 Papyrus Legends of Nascar I really do think that end of 99/start of 2000 will be a big challenge for Papyrus. Because if they ever have lower than expected sales for their two Nascar license software on the shelves, it will affect alot the next products they will do, since we all know it's their cash cow. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Do you mean a NASCAR car? It is NASCAR...not Nascar.

did they change plans? from the first hint of N3, i thought it was going to use the GPL programming - physics model, graphics engine, etc. have they gone to something else now or was it ever based on the GPL engine? personally, i've been absolutely giddy about the use of the GPL physics from the first 10 seconds of running GPL.... and i can't wait to do a Rusty Wallace tumble down the back stretch of 'dega..... same model doesn't mean that the stock cars are going to act like gp cars, they should act as much like a stock car as the GPL cars act like gp's if that makes any sense.... if they've come up with a better engine than GPL, great, but if they've gone back to the N2 engine, i think it's gonna suffer..... BADLY.... not knocking the N2 engine, but there's no need for another update to N2..... i haven't checked it out yet, but there is supposed to be quite a bit of info and screenshots available at www.papyrus.com - there is a little bit and a few screenshots also at [link lost in import] it looks good.... the in-car view is a very welcome change - bottom line, i'm keeping my fingers crossed that they don't***up what has sounded from the beginning like the last NASCAR sim i'll need....

>i haven't checked it out yet, but there is supposed to be quite a bit of info >and screenshots available at www.papyrus.com - <~~~ that should be http://www.papy.com

John Simmons wrote I've been waiting anxiously for almost 2 years for the chance to do a Rusty Wallace type flip through the tri-oval at Taledega running over 200mph. Ever since GPL was announced N2 has seemed ancient. Now that GPL is a reality, and supports FF, I find it depressing to remove my fancy digital wheel in order to run N2 for my weekly league race. N3 isn't good news to me at all, it's just one more roadblock between us and the "real" Nascar sim that Papy has been promising. The better N3 sells the longer it will be before Sierra gives in and allows Papy to do another real Sim. The big problem is that Sierra could care less about what the readers of this newsgroup think I'm afraid, they want Papy to make "games" for the general public. We sim fanatics are just too small of a market share. Nascar fans number in the millions and most of them don't give a darn about realism.

Good reply John, and I agree as well. I do enjoy GPL, but I'll take Nascar over it any day of the week. And based upon the lackluster sales of GPL, I'd say there are many folks that feel the same way. -- Don Burnette Dburn on Ten http://members.home.net/d.burnette/Sportsman%204.htm > >> Why no talk about Nascar 2000? > >1) N2000 doesn't exist anymore, it's N3 now ;) > >2) It's not based on the GPL game engine, so people care less > Only a small minority care less. There are many many more people that > don't like or run GPL and are waiting for the next nascar sim from Papy. > Besides that, if including the "superior" physics of GPL means that we > also get flipped over when swapping paint with another car, I personally > don't want anything to do with it. Flips in today's Nascar races are > very few and far between. snip

I never once mentioned the difficulty of the sim - I merely pointed out the unrealistic way thecollision detection system, combined with the physics engine, produce unrealistic results in terms of a given cars motion and orientation to the plane of the racing surface. Work on your reading comprehension skills... Again, I never said that all Americans are diehard Nascar fans. I was indicating that CART/IRL/Grand Prix racing was of more importance to the guys from countries where those series' are promoted. For the most part, Americans are more accepting of Nascar than CART/IRL, simply bbecause the series is based and run in the states. Work on your reading comprehension skills... First, Papy's Nascar Racing series of sims *is* the best selling racing sim to ever be produced - that can't be denied by anyone. Second, any software that's not on the shelves is nothing but rumor and vaporware. Lastly learned a couple of valuable lessons from N2 and GPL. N2 taught them that Nascar sim drivers want 43-car fields and accurately modeled tracks. They wanted to address these issues. GPL taught them that the burden suffered by the CPU when dealing with the physics models of 20 cars was already taxing most systems (online driving notwithstanding). Doubling the number of cars under those conditions would overwhelm most users' systems that are currently in use today. I applaud their decision, and I think that the lure of 40-car fields online will be enough for most Nascar sim drivers to forgive the exclusion of an entirely new and complicated physics model. Besides that, it was a good *business* decision. If the sim doesn't run worth a damn on a typical system, nobody will buy it, and it will suffer the same fate as GPL. Open your eyes and smell the coffee. Better yet, try using your head for something more than parroting the anti-Papy rhetoric because you can't think of anything new or informative to say. There is one thing I wish for - Papy should be more forthcoming with details about what they're doing so that these kinds of dicussions don't get a chance to gain any sort of momentum. We're all sitting here pounding on each other about what Papy might or might not do, or how they should or should not think, and whether or not N3 will be worth the price of admission. It's a waste of ***in time for everyone involved. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2 http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html Super X Philes http://members.home.net/kap/superx/superx.html If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Yes, they decided to continue with the almost 7year old game engine (from IndyCar Racing 1). The Nascar title that will use the GPL game engine and physic model will be after, hopefully N4. The screenshots at the last URL you showed me was from the real N3 we all want, now N4. Unfortunately, the *** business is like that. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Collision detection system in GPL isn't the best, but it wasn't all that great in N2 either. I have yet to figure out your exact point here considering that GPL does a very good job of simulating the orientatin of car to the plane of the racing surface. Its when it ends up interacting with other cars or "solid" objects roadside it runs into problems. Obviously you have not spent much time with GPL or you would realize that it does do a very good job, outside the collision of two or more objects when it does some funny stuff. If you take and replay a long race and watch the suspension and tires its a very nice ballet that you can feel. I wasn't the only one that "read between the lines" with that statement. CART and IRL ARE promoted here, unless you live in a rathole or something. In fact, I see or hear more CART commercials and advertising in Chicago than I do any Nascar. Let me see. Where does the IRL run? All the races are in the United States. Where does CART run? All the races but 5 races (Japan, Brazil, Toronto, Vancouver and Australia) are run in the United States. Oh well, and next its a possibility that another race will be held in either Germany (oval) or Mexico (road course) next year for CART. Maybe a good portion of Americans are more accepting of Nascar, but to allude that GPL (or any open-wheeler) is only relevant to Canadians or Europeans is rather dull. Work on your basic understanding of the world skills, geesh. Got the figures for that? And where is it the best selling racing sim? In the US? North America? Europe? Australia? Japan? Yeah, Papyrus/Sierra learned a valuable lesson. That they can repeatedly sell a slightly upgraded Nascar racing game to the redneck Nascar fans (my apologies to any Nascar fans who are neither rednecks or rednecks that aren't morons). Ok then, N3 is even more vaporware than any of the other forementioned titles. People outside the developer/publishing companies developing said titles have SEEN these games. It seems that know one outside of Papyrus has really seen N3 at all. Who doesn't want accurately modeled tracks? Work on your reading comprehension skills. Go check out deja-news and see how often a "supposed simulation" is critizied for not having accurate tracks. Yes, so what? Lots of folks upgraded computers to play GPL. A very large majority upgraded for N2 so they could play it better on NROS. ICR1, N1, ICR2, N2 and GPL all pushed the systems when they were released. Now we get NR99 and N3 developed just so they will run on today's systems with ease? Bah. Sorry, you won't get 40-car online fields, not at this point. 24 cars is still the limit on NROS and it has a much smaller bandwidth requirement than GPL and is running on dedicated servers. You might be able to get 40-car fields and higher end machines (not on P200s) for off-line racing. Lets see, the GPL selling was dicussed over and over again. And I'll point you all the back to the first paragraph you responded to. GPL is tough because of the 67 Grand Prix cars is models. Its not necessarily tough because of the physics system used. In fact, the physics system most likely made it EASIER to drive these cars since they require that you have the most feedback you can get or represent in a video/audio/FF(heh) system that is our computers nowadays. Not to mention, its most people's contention on this newsgroup and probably elsewhere that it didn't sell particularly well because there isn't a large body of mainstream people who are really interested in 1967 GP (Formula1) racing these days. I'll bet that the retro Nascar Legends doesn't necessarily sell all that well either. Put Nascar packaging on the box, or even 1999 Formula 1 or CART or sports car racing that 1999 people can identify with and it sells much better. The majority of people buying games are complesive buyers. They don't necessarily go out and get *** mags, or read online *** mags, or visit newsgroups to find out what the game is like or how it fairs in reviews, etc. Who says I'm anti-Papyrus? Actually, I'm not. Randy and Dave are excellent programmers, great gamers and real advocates of racing of all stripes. Mr Matsen is also a great guy. Wouldn't mind getting a GPL box signed by them. But nonetheless, I am not solely "IF IT AINT PAPYRUS IT AINT WORTH ***AND ITS VAPORWARE". If some other developer comes out with a better Nascar game, or 67 F1 game or Rally game or what not, so be it. There are lots of other people, developers and artists, etc, that are as interested in bringing racing to your computer. Not everyone does it as well as the Papyrus team, but nonetheless. And btw, buddy. You have yet to say ANYTHING that has any redeeming value. Or any arguement that hasn't already been said and hashed over. In fact, I will admit to reinforming you of opinions and arguements that have been had over at least the last 6 months on this newsgroup. Try dejanews and scan the old articles. I don't think there isn't a person on the group that wouldn't agree with you on this point. But that may be more Sierra's policy than Papyrus'. As evidenced by the responses and the flavor of the newsgroup, not everyone cares if N3 comes out or not.

Good post.

Ok, how did you arrive at that one? You assume that since people, worldwide, weren't really interested in 1967 grand prix racing that they automatically want a Nascar title? Think you just read way too much into that one. GPL didn't sell well because of its content, i.e. 1967 grand prix racing. Obviously mainstream racing game buyer isn't much into retro racing. Perhaps TAR would have sold better since its a bit easier to identify with, especially since many people own Cudas, Stangs, etc. or even still race them.

I think you got the meaning w/o this needless post.

Quoted text (9 lines)

> ><yawn> Nascar, boring. > >a beast of a Nascar > Do you mean a NASCAR car? > >diehard Nascar racing fans > It is NASCAR...not Nascar.

So basically, since the true sim lovers (that's "lovers of true sims", not "anyone who doesn't like GPL isn't a true sim lover") are a minority, SeeError decided to serve up another slice of N2 pie...... I don't have any problem with that if the GPL based version is still in the works -- I've waited over 20 years for it, I can keep waiting.... <G> I'd much rather wait than have a "rushed out the door to meet some damn deadline" unfinished, neutered product. Does get confusing tho' - trying to keep up with which one is THE one... like ya said, way the pc games biz is..... >Yes, they decided to continue with the almost 7year old game engine (from >IndyCar Racing 1). The Nascar title that will use the GPL game engine and >physic model will be after, hopefully N4. >The screenshots at the last URL you showed me was from the real N3 we all >want, now N4. Unfortunately, the *** business is like that.