New Sony really better than a PC????

A guy at work was telling me the new Sony Play Station thing coming out this Fall will be able to run games better than any PC ever, run under a Windows type format and be internet capable. Is any or all of this true? Will it make my new P3 500 obsolete? Thanks, Gary

Don't be stupid man. They'll only ever make 'GAMES' for that sort of machine - at least with a PC you can have all the games you want, and the good Sim's, AND you can play with it - sounds / car sets blah blah blah....

blah.... I dunno, they could probably run GPL fine. The Memory Cards could hold yer setup / player files. I was looking through a catalog that had all the specs and options listed. Over 3 million Polys a second. It has a built in 56k Modem. And will be running Windows CE. Making any PC Game VERY easy to convert. The memory cards look cool, they have a built in LCD Display. Dave

Are you sure that's not the Sega Dreamcast (sillyname tm) ? The new PS2 isn't going to run Windows CE and there are no pics of anything let alone the memory cards. The Dreamcast however is CE and the cards do have little LCD screens. As for polygons/sec on the PS2, it depends which bit you read but basically 75 million polygon/sec (small polygon) 50 million polygon/sec (48pix quad, 24bit color, Alpha, Z) 30 million polygon/sec (50 pixel triangle with Z and A) 25 million polygon/sec (48 pixel quad with Z, A, and T) Particle Drawing Rate: 150 million/sec Sprite Drawing Rate: 18.75 million (8x8 pixels) 15x faster floating point calculations than Pentium II, and 3x faster than the Pentium III 66M polygon/sec geometry calculations 16M polygon/sec curved surface generation (Bezier) Kev

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> > Don't be stupid man. They'll only ever make 'GAMES' for that sort of > > machine - at least with a PC you can have all the games you want, and the > > good Sim's, AND you can play with it - sounds / car sets blah blah > blah.... > I dunno, they could probably run GPL fine. The Memory Cards could hold yer > setup / player files. > I was looking through a catalog that had all the specs and options listed. > Over 3 million Polys a second. It has a built in 56k Modem. And will be > running Windows CE. Making any PC Game VERY easy to convert. The memory > cards look cool, they have a built in LCD Display. > Dave

The Playstation 2 is not coming out for AT LEAST another full year. The Sega Dreamcast is coming out soon in north America. Can it run games better than a Pc? Oh yeah..big time. It kicks all and any current Pc's out the door. And will for some time to come. Processer power is the same as 4x P2-450's. That is without the 3D hardware! If you don't belive it go to the Sega or many game sites and read for yourself. It runs Windows CE..easy porting of any game. It is very upgradable from the modem to CPU/Grafix/Memory add ons. And you can use Pc joysticks, wheels. etc on it bacause of Windows CE. For 200.00 bucks I'll be getting it.

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>> Don't be stupid man. They'll only ever make 'GAMES' for that sort of >> machine - at least with a PC you can have all the games you want, and the >> good Sim's, AND you can play with it - sounds / car sets blah blah >blah.... >I dunno, they could probably run GPL fine. The Memory Cards could hold yer >setup / player files. >I was looking through a catalog that had all the specs and options listed. >Over 3 million Polys a second. It has a built in 56k Modem. And will be >running Windows CE. Making any PC Game VERY easy to convert. The memory >cards look cool, they have a built in LCD Display.

The Sega Dreamcast runs Win CE. Sony Playstation 2 does not. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

In fact the PSX2 is running a derivative of UNIX/LINUX M

Yes, sorry....... never post tired :-) Dave

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>The Playstation 2 is not coming out for AT LEAST another full year. >The Sega Dreamcast is coming out soon in north America. >Can it run games better than a Pc? Oh yeah..big time. >It kicks all and any current Pc's out the door. And will for some time to >come. Processer power is the same as 4x P2-450's. That is without the 3D >hardware! >If you don't belive it go to the Sega or many game sites and read for >yourself. >It runs Windows CE..easy porting of any game. It is very upgradable from the >modem to CPU/Grafix/Memory add ons. >And you can use Pc joysticks, wheels. etc on it bacause of Windows CE. >For 200.00 bucks I'll be getting it.

Hmmm, if it's THAT good and can beat an average PC hands down, why does the inferior PC cost over $1000 and the console just $200? Or are they getting memory chips and processors out of thin air???

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> >The Playstation 2 is not coming out for AT LEAST another full year. > >The Sega Dreamcast is coming out soon in north America. > >Can it run games better than a Pc? Oh yeah..big time. > >It kicks all and any current Pc's out the door. And will for some time to > >come. Processer power is the same as 4x P2-450's. That is without the 3D > >hardware! > >If you don't belive it go to the Sega or many game sites and read for > >yourself. > >It runs Windows CE..easy porting of any game. It is very upgradable from the > >modem to CPU/Grafix/Memory add ons. > >And you can use Pc joysticks, wheels. etc on it bacause of Windows CE. > >For 200.00 bucks I'll be getting it. > Hmmm, if it's THAT good and can beat an average PC hands down, why > does the inferior PC cost over $1000 and the console just $200? Or are > they getting memory chips and processors out of thin air???

Could have something to do with the $200 you have to pay just for a Pentium chip on a PC, despite the fact that it's out-of-date CISC technology and nowhere near as fast as the best RISC chips available (especially when you consider that you can have several parallel RISC chips for the price of a Pentium). This is the price you have to pay for backwards-compatibility. Memory and processors are extremely cheap - it's all the other ***that bumps the price up.

Yes, and no. The Pentium chips really aren't true CISC chips either. The instruction set is, sure, but not the actual chip itself. And the Merced (i.e. the IA-64 and even its smaller brother then IA-32) are definetly not either CISC or RISC chips. The whole arguements of complex versus reduced instruction sets and the architecture of the chips or pricing schemes really isn't a focus of this newsgroup and can be as much of a religious debate as either religion or operating systems themselves. One way to look at it, but doesn't even begin to touch into the complexities of broadbased computing (PCs, servers, etc) versus tightly controlled computing (consoles, palmpilots, etc). Oh, btw, for the guy who said that a Dreamcast system doesn't have 3D hardware......can we say, BS? Thought we could. Dreamcast, Sega, PS2, etc all have "3D hardware" in them, however they are engineering into a one single unit and in some cases all on the same chip (again, different architectural designs can lead to religious debates so refrain from even bothering to try and debate it).

There's a PSX2 FAQ at http://psx.ign.com/ Decide for yourself. -- Remove "spam jammer" to reply Galley's guide to World Driver Championship Data for every car, event, track and more. Coming soon: strategy for every track with detailed maps http://worlddriver.homepage.com/ My Yahoo! messenger ID is Galley_SimRacer

>It kicks all and any current Pc's out the door. And will for some time to >come. Processer power is the same as 4x P2-450's. Hardware gurus: is this true? Does it really have that much power? Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

No. And its very hard to benchmark chips against each other. However, the chipsets for the next-gen *** consoles are very impressive in what they do: full range math processing (especially floating point tailored for 3D graphics), 3D graphics and sound. Beyond that, they don't do very much (well, ok so some have a lame 56K modem in them....just in time when everyone and their dog is getting cable and faster connections).

>Beyond that, they don't do very much >(well, ok so some have a lame 56K modem in them....just in time when >everyone and their dog is getting cable and faster connections). Yeah, that seems like a really badly timed decision. No way I'd go back to using a modem (and I certainly don't want to pay money for such an antiquated piece of junk!). Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

>The Playstation 2 is not coming out for AT LEAST another full year. The Playstation 2 sounds TERRIFIC! 'Course as mentioned above it's not gonna be out for another year. The TOP OF THE LINE PC's a year and a half from now will ALSO blow away anything being used today. Don't forget: there isn't a SINGLE Playstation2 made yet. They haven't even firmed up the OS or CPU last I heard! Benchmarks on vaporware should be taken accordingly. Also remember: the demos that were shown a few months ago were NOT run on a Playstation2 - they still haven't built one! We'll see in another year or so. Gunner

Yeah, but isn't the PSX2 going to have ONLY 4MB of video RAM and 8MB of general RAM?? I read somewhere that memory was the real limiting factor of the machine. > > > Don't be stupid man. They'll only ever make 'GAMES' for that sort of > > > machine - at least with a PC you can have all the games you want, and the > > > good Sim's, AND you can play with it - sounds / car sets blah blah > > blah.... > > I dunno, they could probably run GPL fine. The Memory Cards could hold yer > > setup / player files. > > I was looking through a catalog that had all the specs and options listed. > > Over 3 million Polys a second. It has a built in 56k Modem. And will be > > running Windows CE. Making any PC Game VERY easy to convert. The memory > > cards look cool, they have a built in LCD Display. > > Dave

He's not being stupid. I've kept up on the Playstation 2, and I will say this: almost everything you know about consoles is going to become obsolete. Maybe, maybe not. Sony is considering allowing it to be fully DVD as well as CD. Not only that, it's going to have a PCMCIA slot, and Sony has hinted strongly that it will be ready to go for online play (Even the Dreamcast is coming stock with a modem and will introduce peripherals for connecting to cable modems and ADSL lines). Also, the Playstation 2 will feature USB support, meaning that everything from mice to keyboards will be open to it. George Lucas conceded that the new Playstation 2 is significantly more powerful than the machines he did the Phantom Menace on. As he admitted, the Playstation 2 won't be able to do Phantom Menace quality CGI in REAL TIME, but as he said: "It will be plenty good enough for TV". In fact, Lucas said he was dying to get PS2 stuff for LucasArts, but was currently having problems because it was classified as a Super Computer. On the flip side, everything you say about the PC is true. While the PS2 might blow the doors off the best PC right now, by the time it's actually AVAILABLE, we'll undoubtedly be running 700-800 Mhz Pentium IV's and the 3D hardware will all feature the latest bump-mapping ,etc. I think if history is any gauge, when the PS2 comes out it will smoke existing PC's, but as the PS2 moves through its lifecycle, PC's will pass it. That's what has historically happened, since the PS2 will still effectively be a dedicated console as opposed to a highly customizable and upgradeable device. But you know, the only thing keeping high fidelity sims off the consoles is that they are still effectively 2-4 year old technology. The new one will have a ton of RAM, and a ton of dedicated graphics processing hardware to take the load off the CPU. Before you dismiss the Sony Playstation 2 hardware or what will come out for it, you should do some digging, and particularly find out what those in the industry (both video game and movie) are saying. As for me, I'll always own the latest console and the best PC I can get. I don't like to have my options limited. Btw, Bryan Herta's favorite racing sim is Gran Turismo -- a Playstation title.

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>at least with a PC you can have all the games you want, and the >good Sim's, AND you can play with it - sounds / car sets blah blah blah.... >>A guy at work was telling me the new Sony Play Station thing coming out >this >>Fall will be able to run games better than any PC ever, run under a Windows >>type format and be internet capable. Is any or all of this true? Will it >>make my new P3 500 obsolete? >>Thanks, >>Gary

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

> Yeah, but isn't the PSX2 going to have ONLY 4MB of video RAM and 8MB of > general RAM?? I read somewhere that memory was the real limiting factor of > the machine. The current PS has 4MB RAM (I think. Might be 2Mb). PS2 is supposed to have a central CPU as follows CPU Core: 128 bit CPU System Clock: 300 MHz Bus Bandwidth: 3.2GB/sec. Main Memory: Direct Rambus, 32MB 128 bit SIMD Multimedia instructions The graphic synthesiser rendering engine (?) has System Clock: 150 MHz Embedded DRAM: 4MB (ultra-high bandwidth) From the demo movies I've seen it looks very very impressive. It probably won't take long for pc cards to do the same or better. Kev

-------------------------------- French ------------------------- Salut ! Je suis developpeur de jeux sur PSX la PSX actuelle 2mb ram, 1mb vram et 512ko sram pour la PSX2 vous pouvez continuer de rver , actuellement Sony n'a pas encore d'usine pour faire leur CPU 0,18 microns. Seul INTEL en possde une. Donc las PSX ne sera pas disponible avant 2 ans sauf accord avec INTEL ce qui est peu probable vu que Sony prfrer mettre Linux comme OS plutot que le copain INTEL. Pour ce qui est des caractristiques du CPU, mon humble avis les chiffres sont trs largements majors, et d'ici que la PSX2 sorte, le PC sera plus puissant encore. ----------------------------------- English ----------------------- Hello! I'm game developer on PSX the current PSX to 2mb ram, 1mb vram and 512ko sram for the PSX2 , keep dreaming, currently Sony doesn't have a factory to make their CPU to 0,18 microns. Only INTEL possesses one of it. Therefore the PSX2 won't be available before 2 years except agreement with INTEL what is little likely seen that Sony prefers to put Linux as OS rather than the buddy to INTEL. For what is features of the CPU, to my humble opinion, numbers are very raised largements, and from here that the PSX2 way, the PC will be again more powerful. -- ==================================== Sbastien Tixier - Game Developper

3D hardware of The DreamCast is based on the PowerVR chip. At work we develop for DreamCast, it's not a fast machine as people say. A p2-450 with tnt2 is very more powerfull than a Dreamcast. The facts is that Console Developpers are ( generally ) more efficiency than PC developper.( less CPU, less Mem ) It is owed to the fact that the market of the console brings back money a lot more and attract more developer therefore . -- ==================================== Sbastien Tixier - Game Developper

AMD may too. The Athlon's are supposed to come out as a .18 micron part sometime Q4 or Q12000. Exaggerated, definetly.

Yes, thank you. Was going to mention that but forgot who it was. Anyways, the PC version (aka in Neon250) is supposed to be out soon. Yup. Maybe some console developers are better at working within the constraints of the consoles, but that doesn't necessarily make them or console developers in general more efficient. Being efficient is key in any system to getting the optimal performance out of that system. Perhaps more PC developers are sloppier at doing this than their counterparts on the consoles, but any top-flight game on any system is going to be as efficient as possible to squeeze out maximum performance. Sure, supply some actual data on that one. Personally, I'd never put one foot in the console developing arena, ugh.

>> It is owed to the fact that the market of the console brings back money a >lot >> more and attract more developer therefore . >Sure, supply some actual data on that one. Personally, I'd never put one >foot in the console developing arena, ugh. You're distaste for console's doesn't change that they outsell PC *** software and that in Europe, at least, Playstation nearly manages to outsell PC Software completely. Add to this the higher sticker price per unit, and you have vastly greater turnover. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

>the current PSX to 2mb ram, 1mb vram and 512ko sram >for the PSX2 , keep dreaming, currently >Sony doesn't have a factory to make their CPU to 0,18 microns. Of course not. It is Toshiba which is going to be manufacturing the chips and they have been working on a facility to do it. Sony's latest estimate is that the production of the PS2 hardware will begin this October. Sorry to tell you but Sony isn't using Intel, and again I suggest you dig a bit more to find out who is going to manufacture Sony's chips. We don't know how powerful PC's will be when the PS2 comes out. But I believe at the time of release the PC will be behind the PS2, and will eventually catch up and pass it during the PS2's lifecycle. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

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> >> It is owed to the fact that the market of the console brings back money a > >lot > >> more and attract more developer therefore . > >Sure, supply some actual data on that one. Personally, I'd never put one > >foot in the console developing arena, ugh. > You're distaste for console's doesn't change that they outsell PC *** > software and that in Europe, at least, Playstation nearly manages to outsell > PC Software completely. > Add to this the higher sticker price per unit, and you have vastly greater > turnover.

With good reason too - apart from the fact that the consoles themselves are much cheaper, the games are actually better for most users - they actually work first time! You really do need to be dedicated to get into PC *** - I seem to spend about equal amounts of time downloading drivers etc. as I do playing the games! It's starting to get really depressing... whenever I get some new gizmo and get all e***d, unwrapping it and plugging it in, it always takes at least another week before I can actually get it working! As far as games are concerned, PCs currently are more like a testbed for new hardware and software - they're not up to the normal standards required of a consumer product. It's the same old treadmill as for other software on Windows - just buy a new computer and the new games will be easy to run - until next year, when all the underlying software has changed and you have to buy a new one (or spend hours updating it all over the net)! Aargh!

The 'efficiency' for consoles lies in the fact that when someone's programming for it, you have ONE system setup. ONE procressor. ONE video processor. ONE soundboard. Not 4 or 5 processors, with varying speeds for each one. Not hundreds of video cards. Not hundreds of soundcards. You know EXACTLY how each system is going to behave. With the infinite possibilites of PCs, there's no way that a programmer can make a game run smoking fast on every single one. There's just not enough time, and why bother. That's why my Nintendo 64 with a 90 MHz chip and maybe 16 MB total RAM in the whole thing can obliterate my Pentium 90 MHz with 40 MB RAM and 2MB VRAM, and still keep up with my Pentium II 466 with 64 MB RAM. -- Kirk Lane Tempe, AZ ICQ: 28171652 BRT #187 "I read dead Russian authors volumes at a time I write everything down except what's on my mind 'Cause my greatest fear is the sucking sound And then I know I'll never get back out" -'Narcolepsy', Third Eye Blind

>That's why my Nintendo 64 with a 90 MHz chip and maybe 16 MB total >RAM in the whole thing can obliterate my Pentium 90 MHz with 40 MB RAM and >2MB VRAM, and still keep up with my Pentium II 466 with 64 MB RAM. Yes re the P90, absolutely not re the 466. Even my P2 300 smokes my N64. Ask anyone who has, for example, played Star Wars Episode I: Racer on both the P300 and a Voodoo2 and N64 (I'll even let you use the expansion pak). The PC version wins hands down -- higher resolution, faster frame rates, better sound (since no cartridge limitations). I concede the general point that there is much efficiency of a machine dedicated to producing games, but you are really reaching if you think the N64 competes with anything more than maybe a P233 with a decent 3D card. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder