TNT@ vs. V3

I'm sure this has been discussed before. I am having a new computer put together tomorrow and in an indecisive fit I chose the Diamond TNT2. I am having second thoughts to the Voodoo3 3000. Any suggestions. Andrew

I think you chose well. I own both cards and the TNT2 is better then my Voodoo3. The only hassle you'll have is running GPL. Use the OpenGL beta2 patch and it might solve your problems. Make sure you use the latest Nvidia Reference drivers (2.08 I think) Every game game I own looks and runs much better on the TNT2. Voodoo3 however runs GPL flawlessly with all mirror detail at 1280x1024 res 36fps. Opengl mode at this res. does some very strange things!

You should both qualify this by stating what system you're running on. If you go to toms hardware you'll see that the advantage of the TNT2 is minimal on slower machines (and I'm sad to say my P300 is now a "slower machine"), whereas as you get to 400's and 500's the TNT2 takes off like a rocket. So if you're stuck with a slower machine, the TNT2 hardware may not be worth buying at this price point. Besides, the Voodoo3 can be had REAL cheap from Buy.com, and it runs everything great in 16-bit color, and was a great AGP solution for me.

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>I think you chose well. I own both cards and the TNT2 is better then my >Voodoo3. >The only hassle you'll have is running GPL. Use the OpenGL beta2 patch and >it might solve your problems. Make sure you use the latest Nvidia Reference >drivers (2.08 I think) >Every game game I own looks and runs much better on the TNT2. Voodoo3 >however runs GPL flawlessly with all mirror detail at 1280x1024 res 36fps. >Opengl mode at this res. does some very strange things! >> I'm sure this has been discussed before. I am having a new computer put >> together tomorrow and in an indecisive fit I chose the Diamond TNT2. I >> am having second thoughts to the Voodoo3 3000. Any suggestions. >> Andrew

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

I will now put my V2 in my P3 450 mhz and see whether fps is better than with TNT2. Rene

I will have a P11 400. So this is comforting.

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> You should both qualify this by stating what system you're running on. > If you go to toms hardware you'll see that the advantage of the TNT2 > is minimal on slower machines (and I'm sad to say my P300 is now a > "slower machine"), whereas as you get to 400's and 500's the TNT2 > takes off like a rocket. So if you're stuck with a slower machine, > the TNT2 hardware may not be worth buying at this price point. > Besides, the Voodoo3 can be had REAL cheap from Buy.com, and it runs > everything great in 16-bit color, and was a great AGP solution for me. > >I think you chose well. I own both cards and the TNT2 is better then my > >Voodoo3. > >The only hassle you'll have is running GPL. Use the OpenGL beta2 patch and > >it might solve your problems. Make sure you use the latest Nvidia Reference > >drivers (2.08 I think) > >Every game game I own looks and runs much better on the TNT2. Voodoo3 > >however runs GPL flawlessly with all mirror detail at 1280x1024 res 36fps. > >Opengl mode at this res. does some very strange things! > >> I'm sure this has been discussed before. I am having a new computer put > >> together tomorrow and in an indecisive fit I chose the Diamond TNT2. I > >> am having second thoughts to the Voodoo3 3000. Any suggestions. > >> Andrew > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Too bad its not really an AGP solution at all, just is able to sit in the AGP slot and does take advantage of the slightly faster AGP bus but still uses its own proprietary memory transfer. Nonetheless, yes thats something that we've all been forgetting is to qualify with the type of computer because the TNT2 does take "off" more with higher end machines. However, it should be noted that while apparently its not nearly as weighted as the TNT2, the same thing happens with the Voodoo3s. > >I think you chose well. I own both cards and the TNT2 is better then my > >Voodoo3. > >The only hassle you'll have is running GPL. Use the OpenGL beta2 patch and > >it might solve your problems. Make sure you use the latest Nvidia Reference > >drivers (2.08 I think) > >Every game game I own looks and runs much better on the TNT2. Voodoo3 > >however runs GPL flawlessly with all mirror detail at 1280x1024 res 36fps.

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> >Opengl mode at this res. does some very strange things! > >> I'm sure this has been discussed before. I am having a new computer put > >> together tomorrow and in an indecisive fit I chose the Diamond TNT2. I > >> am having second thoughts to the Voodoo3 3000. Any suggestions. > >> Andrew > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

What, do you swap the cards when you want to play GPL? What are your system specs? Generally V3 seems to get higher benchmarks, and all it doesn't do are 32 bit colour and large textures. Let me assure you Q3test (the one all TNT2 owners bang on about) still looks mighty fine on my v3 colour effects, but it still looks fabulous and the framerate is superb. OTOH I can run GPL (far more important than Q3test given that this is RAS) without beta opengl drivers and without having to***around with mirror refresh rates. Unfortunately, it seems that the Voodoo has dropped out of fashion because it doesn't have the features Carmack wants. Mark Reading, UK Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

The correct answer is... It depends. I almost went with the well hyped TNT2, but decided to go with the unfashionable non-boastworthy v3 3000 because, although it doesn't do 32bit colour and large textures, it is more suited to what I play - GPL and SCGT. There are folks out there who claim to get better performance from their V2 than their TNT2 in SCGT (ouch), and GPL supports Glide natively. Also, from what I've read (and I have to admit it's not a whole hell of a lot) it seems that V3 3000 generally outshines TNT2 in benchmarking tests. So, do you want features for what you -might- play tomorrow or performance for what you -do- play today? If it's the former, you should probably go for the new Matrox, if it's the latter then given you've posted to RAS, I'd recommend the V3. Mark Reading, UK Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

<snip> What opengl drivers? I wasn't aware of any. I know there is an OpenGL beta RASTERIZER for GPL (aka, its exactly the same thing as the 3dfx rasterizer or Rendition or software rasterizers except for its for OpenGL and was released as an addon.) and I don't have to***around with mirror refresh rates either. Carmack isn't the only developer and he ain't the only gamer out there that wants these features.

Yup. SCGT. Unfashionable? Heh, ok..you are going a bit out there on a limb with that one. And the Voodoo3 series was way more hyped than the TNT2s. Heck, I dont recall ever seeing any NVidia commercials on tv, but tons of (in some cases rather good) Voodoo3 commercials from 3dfx. SCGT runs better in D3D anyways. :) Whats wrong with that claim? Its fact. A TNT2 outperforms a SINGLE Voodoo2 in every game I've tried it on (except some older ones that are Glide only from the days when 3D acceleration was just emerging). It outperforms my Voodoo2 SLI (Diamond 12 meg cards) in every game too. GPL supports: Software, Rendition, Glide AND OpenGL SCGT supports: D3D and Glide Use the appropriate rasterizer for each game, for your card, that gives you the best performance, etc. And btw, GPL doesn't natively support anything. All the rasterizers, including yes the OpenGL, are contained in seperate dlls (dynamic link libraries) which basically translate the internal GPL engine calls into the appropriate calls for that particular 3D API. Outshines? ROTFL. Right, give me all these links and benchmarking reviews. And right now I do use the features of the TNT2 with Q3A. I'll use them with Rally Championship (even better if it was a G400Max), other games such as Expendable will use advanced features. And btw, the new Matrox G400 and G400MAX still has some driver issues especially in the realm of OpenGL so would be a bad choice if you really like playing GPL (and dont have 1 or 2 Voodoo2 cards handy). If all you care about is GPL and nothing else, then Voodoo3 is definetly the way to go. But nonetheless here is a variety of links on the subject to enlighten those who wish to know, and to enlighten those that obviously dont know. There are even more links to different reviews, as everyone has their own tilt, so I can't list them all. Its Quake3, but its the biggest test I know of different hardware (of course with Tom's bias). http://www.tomshardware.com/releases/99q2/9905111/index.html most notably this link http://www.tomshardware.com/releases/99q2/9905111/q3test-04.html Darn, so much for the notion, according to Tom, that the Voodoo3 outshines TNT2 cards. Rest of the links http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/articles/video_june_99/ http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/articles/tnt-tnt2/ http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/3dfx_v3_3000/ http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/reviews/video/hercules_tnt2ultra/ http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/reviews/video/elsa_erazor3/ http://www.gamecenter.com/Hardware/Roundup/Voo3vstnt2/ http://www.gamecenter.com/Hardware/Roundup/3dgraphics/ http://www.anandtech.com http://www.zdnet.com P.S. Oh yeah, the lame matra of "features for what you -might- play tomorrow" is recycled over and over again. A couple of recent examples are a) the introduction to the mainstream of the 3D hardware accelerator. People didnt think you'd need or want it or it was too expensive, so there were naysayers. b) forcefeedback. Gee, how many folks just went out and bought new FF wheels because of GPL1.1? Mms. Of course there are always things like 3D glasses that just have either never worked, never worked well enough or just generally failed to catch.

Well, I put my Voodoo2 in my second PC throught the TNT2 and guess what: Monza, qualifying, 5 computer opponents, all details on, mirror 2 800 x 600 resolution, P3 450 mhz 128 MB: TNT2: 17 fps Voodoo2: 31 fps, and running rock stable I am definitely in for the Voodoo2 for GPL!!!!!!!!! I will buy one for my second PC so I do not have to switch the boards between the PC's!! Or maybe a V2 because of the higher possible resolution, but 800 x 600 does not reallly bother me, and V3 is more expensive... Rene

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>I will now put my V2 in my P3 450 mhz and see whether fps is better >than with TNT2. >Rene >>Every game game I own looks and runs much better on the TNT2. Voodoo3 >>however runs GPL flawlessly with all mirror detail at 1280x1024 res 36fps. >>Opengl mode at this res. does some very strange things!

Well, I have a Matrox G200 in the first PC and NFS3 and TOCA2 at least run fine with it. So I will save the money for Voodoo 4 or something else!! Rene

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>Well, I put my Voodoo2 in my second PC throught the TNT2 and guess >what: >Monza, qualifying, 5 computer opponents, all details on, mirror 2 >800 x 600 resolution, P3 450 mhz 128 MB: >TNT2: 17 fps >Voodoo2: 31 fps, and running rock stable >I am definitely in for the Voodoo2 for GPL!!!!!!!!! >I will buy one for my second PC so I do not have to switch the boards >between the PC's!! Or maybe a V2 because of the higher possible >resolution, but 800 x 600 does not reallly bother me, and V3 is more >expensive... >Rene >>I will now put my V2 in my P3 450 mhz and see whether fps is better >>than with TNT2. >>Rene >>>Every game game I own looks and runs much better on the TNT2. Voodoo3 >>>however runs GPL flawlessly with all mirror detail at 1280x1024 res 36fps. >>>Opengl mode at this res. does some very strange things!

Trust me, they are ALL over the place in the US. TV, Radio, etc. :) Mms...I guess I haven't gotten that vibe from the internet. In fact, they keep hammering away that the V3 is a very good card and good value, but it just lacks the more advanced features of some of the other cards. And I think you are overestimating Carmack's powers (btw, you realize of course he sits on a 3dfx panel that helps advice 3dfx of what developers/games/gamers need or what? :) I run SCGT (or used to), N2, NR99, GPL, SBK, unnamed racing sim, Quake3, Fleet Command, etc, etc, etc without any hitches. All I try and do is give my experience with it. Someone asks if a TNT2 or TNT2 Ultra works? My experience says yes. And not everyone is a fantatic, not everyone only runs racing sims. I dont remember anyone stating that a V2 outperformed a TNT2. I'd like to reread it and see what the person has. There are mirror issues, there are corruption issues (or were) with the Voodoo cards. Dont remember the Banshee or initial teething problems of the Voodoo3? How fast we forget. Only card I don't remember ANYONE saying they had problems with was the REndition boards. Natively would mean the actual underlying engine was written in that particular API. People used to do it that way when there were only a few APIs out...but not anymore, makes it way too hard to adapt or as Papyrus did supply an OpenGL solution because people asked for it. True enough, however its a TECHNOLOGY test. Its a good piece of software to try hardware one and one that will test the graphics card more than the CPU. RC may suck, it may not. But judging by the screenshots its graphics engine is going to take everything the card can give it and use it. They've had more than 2 efforts btw, and its widely acknowledge that the last one sucked. Think Q3 but in 3rd person with lots of nice new graphics to go oooo over. Q2 is old in terms of technology. And no, you don't need a 550mhz P3 to run a TNT2 or G400 card. Future software? You seem to think in terms of years, not months. Most people don't buy new video cards every couple of months, so when we speak of upcoming titles that are coming out within months that will take advantage of new technology then its a matter of personal preference whether you want here and now or want a card that will be ble to handle the games coming over next 6 months or so. Hey, thats fine. But to make the assumption that someone who posts on RAS solely plays racing games, or only a couple in particular, is assuming I think too much. Besides, there are lots of different simulations besides GPL and SCGT discussed here and covered by RAS and not all as limited as GPL's graphics engine. Thats fine. I quit reading PC Gamer awhile back because they ended up being in the minority on must issues, especially benchmarking. Its NOT true. I never said anything about NOT advising for the V3. I'm just saying, repeatedly and its not getting through, that the V3 is NOT the only option. And to say that the V3 is better supported in this genre or any other is a falacy of the highest order. The TNT2 is just as capable in the 16bit realm as the V3, just because it has some additional features that the V3 doesn't does not mean its suddenly not as well supported. It supports every single non-proprietary feature that the V3 does (i.e. it doesn't support Glide because its proprietary). Same with the G400 or the Savage4 or the ATI Rage Fury. The point was, not everyone listened to people saying "buy only what you need", they started buying hardware when there was only a few games out that took advantage of it. And just because you never buy anything unless its supported in current hardware, doesn't mean others have to conform to that. I've dealt with computers for a long time and I find its much easier to anticipate than be reactive. I know that 32bit color, large textures, environmental bump mapping, with DX7 there will be texture compression, are coming in the near future because developers and industry has said so and those that have said it have been on the cuttin edge, such as id. Thats my view, differs quite a bit from yours, but both are valid as long as everyone gets to make up their own mind. Better run out and buy it then, since GPL supports it. Oh so did Viper Racing. Personally I got it because I was in the need of a new wheel after my T2 died and I didn't feel like fixing it. Wasn't in the mode to spend $300+ on a wheel and the FF wheel I bought was priced right, and FF was starting to be talked about and used in a variety of software and even racing sims. I'm glad I did, if I'd reacted I'd have bougth another non-FF wheel and I'd have to go buy a FF wheel now. :?

Yes, ok..so what? They listened to the customer and supplied one. Its unsupported, big deal. Sierra's customer support isn't all that great. You are making to big of distinction here. I'm not aware of any TNT2 or TNT owners having to use a 3rd party (i.e. not developed by Papyrus) solution to get the game to run correctly with their cards. Oh yeah, whats that "wrapper" that was used before GPL1.1 that allowed folks to play with their mirror refresh rates? Give me a break. Hey, thats great if thats how you like to buy stuff. I tend to be PROACTIVE rather than REACTIVE. Bottom line is, if you are happy then its good enough for you. Never said anything is wrong with the Voodoo3 solution, probably (and I've stated before) that it is a good one if all you are itnerested in is GPL. Maybe its not the best solution if you play a larger selection of titles and or are looking at some of the titles coming down the road either now or in a few months.

>Unfashionable? Heh, ok..you are going a bit out there on a limb with that >one. And the Voodoo3 series was way more hyped than the TNT2s. Heck, I >dont recall ever seeing any NVidia commercials on tv, but tons of (in some >cases rather good) Voodoo3 commercials from 3dfx. Never seen a V3 commercial. I'm in the UK, and the vibe on the internet is very pro-TNT2, anti V3 and I'm guessing this is primarily because it doesn't have features Carmack wants. I just think it would be bad form to recommend a platform to a racing sim fanatic that might give them GPL trouble. I run SCGT, TOCA2, N2 and GPL without a hitch. People claim their V2 outperforms a TNT2 and you're not surprised? I was. I'm just going on what people were saying when I asked why D3D SCGT ran better than Glide on my v3... Unsupported OpenGL, mind you - with mirror issues and which many people seem to have have problems with. Sorry, I just assumed that if something supports Rendition and Voodoo OOTB, it was natively supported. What's the difference? I made you happy, that's nice ;-) Q3A. The TNT2 owner's God. It's just a 2 level test, not a full product. This is RAS. GPL is God here... (BTW Q3test runs mighty fine on my V3). Rally Championship - not here yet, not even a playable demo. May end up being no better than CMR. Worse still, might end up being as bad as their previous two efforts with pleasing graphics. Expendable? What's that then? I said it wasn't a whole lot I'd read - a couple of UK game mags. PC Gamer (I think) recommended V3 unless you had, like, a 550MHz PC and craved the features of the Matrox. I believe the main test was Q2 - a full product. go. But I'm sure Matrox will sort that out in the future. Mmm, future software, a concept you seem to be happy with... Well for me it's GPL and SCGT. I don't really care about much else and probably won't until N3 (I'll worry about that when it arrives - but for now Papy claim Glide support along with D3D...), and given that someone originally posted to RAS asking for hardware advice, I'm guessing they're main interest is pretty much the same. OK then, according to PC Gamer the V3 outshines the TNT2 for current games. How's that? Oh, please. Maybe it's recycled because it's true. By the time your beloved Q3A arrives you'll be wanting your next, next, next gen piece of hardware. Why should I advise someone who's into racing sims against V3? It may be inferior tech to a TNT2 but it's better supported in this genre right now. And the V3 still does a damn fine job regardless. Which has about as much relevance to this discussion as...? People bought 3D hardware when the software deemed it necessary. Probably Tomb Raider and Quake did more for the accellerator cause than anything else. The software existed, people bought the hardware. I never bought anything on the basis that it was necessary for software that hadn't even been released yet. On my P200 I bought a Rendition card for N2 and SODA and I later bought a V1 for everything else (F1RS, for example). Now on my PIII I buy a V3 for GPL, and it's fine for pretty much anything else out there right now. My point well made. A product exists that supports FF, I'll buy a FF wheel. What is the point of buying a FF wheel before then? Only to brag about, I guess... Mark Reading, UK

><snip> >> colour effects, but it still looks fabulous and the framerate is superb. >OTOH >> I can run GPL (far more important than Q3test given that this is RAS) >without >> beta opengl drivers and without having to***around with mirror refresh >> rates. >What opengl drivers? I wasn't aware of any. I know there is an OpenGL beta >RASTERIZER for GPL (aka, its exactly the same thing as the 3dfx rasterizer >or Rendition or software rasterizers except for its for OpenGL and was >released as an addon.) and I don't have to***around with mirror refresh >rates either. Oh, sorry, RASTERIZER. -Exactly- the same as the 3dfx, rendition or software. Except that it's an unsupported beta add on that wasn't supplied with the original product. Yes. Good for you not having to***around with mirror refresh rates. There are folks having to chop them down to 1in4 or 1in6 to get acceptable framerates. Not aware of any voodoo users having to do that... But he's the one with the disciples - an opinion former if you will. That's the impression I get, anyway. And I have to say that as long as my driving sims look good and have decent framerates (which they do with my v3) I couldn't give a monkey's as to what features my card does or doesn't have. When Acme Software House produces a driving sim that I want that requires a graphics card with features I don't have (be it bump mapping, large textures, dual head output or whatever), that's when I'll want a graphics card with these features, and not before. Mark Reading, UK

I've never seen a V3 commercial either, seems like UK computer users don't count? Ok, but according to PC Format (UK PC mag) the TNT2 outshines the V3..... My guess is that the performance gap between the two cards is so small that they are practically impossible to tell apart. basically, TNT2 = More features, more expensive, likely to be usable further into the future (its important to people like me who still use a voodoo1 because they can't afford to upgrade) V3 = More support, cheaper, better for GPL (given the newsgroup this is in, that has to be worth mentioning) note: I am talking TNT2 Ultra and V3 3000 here, as for the standard TNT2 and V3 2000, I don't know (or care) how fast they are. Steve

Note however that these benchmarks focus on 400 MHz machines and higher. If you've got benchmarks on P300's for the TNT2 and Voodoo3, I'd like to see them!

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>> It depends. >Yup. >> I almost went with the well hyped TNT2, but decided to go with the >> unfashionable non-boastworthy v3 3000 because, although it doesn't do >32bit >> colour and large textures, it is more suited to what I play - GPL and >SCGT. >Unfashionable? Heh, ok..you are going a bit out there on a limb with that >one. And the Voodoo3 series was way more hyped than the TNT2s. Heck, I >dont recall ever seeing any NVidia commercials on tv, but tons of (in some >cases rather good) Voodoo3 commercials from 3dfx. >SCGT runs better in D3D anyways. :) >> There are folks out there who claim to get better performance from their >V2 >> than their TNT2 in SCGT (ouch), and GPL supports Glide natively. >Whats wrong with that claim? Its fact. A TNT2 outperforms a SINGLE Voodoo2 >in every game I've tried it on (except some older ones that are Glide only >from the days when 3D acceleration was just emerging). It outperforms my >Voodoo2 SLI (Diamond 12 meg cards) in every game too. >GPL supports: Software, Rendition, Glide AND OpenGL >SCGT supports: D3D and Glide >Use the appropriate rasterizer for each game, for your card, that gives you >the best performance, etc. And btw, GPL doesn't natively support anything. >All the rasterizers, including yes the OpenGL, are contained in seperate >dlls (dynamic link libraries) which basically translate the internal GPL >engine calls into the appropriate calls for that particular 3D API. >> Also, from >> what I've read (and I have to admit it's not a whole hell of a lot) it >seems >> that V3 3000 generally outshines TNT2 in benchmarking tests. So, do you >want >> features for what you -might- play tomorrow or performance for what >you -do- >> play today? If it's the former, you should probably go for the new >Matrox, >> if it's the latter then given you've posted to RAS, I'd recommend the V3. >Outshines? ROTFL. Right, give me all these links and benchmarking reviews. >And right now I do use the features of the TNT2 with Q3A. I'll use them >with Rally Championship (even better if it was a G400Max), other games such >as Expendable will use advanced features. >And btw, the new Matrox G400 and G400MAX still has some driver issues >especially in the realm of OpenGL so would be a bad choice if you really >like playing GPL (and dont have 1 or 2 Voodoo2 cards handy). If all you >care about is GPL and nothing else, then Voodoo3 is definetly the way to go. >But nonetheless here is a variety of links on the subject to enlighten those >who wish to know, and to enlighten those that obviously dont know. There >are even more links to different reviews, as everyone has their own tilt, so >I can't list them all. >Its Quake3, but its the biggest test I know of different hardware (of course >with Tom's bias). >http://www.tomshardware.com/releases/99q2/9905111/index.html >most notably this link >http://www.tomshardware.com/releases/99q2/9905111/q3test-04.html >Darn, so much for the notion, according to Tom, that the Voodoo3 outshines >TNT2 cards. >Rest of the links >http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/articles/video_june_99/ >http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/articles/tnt-tnt2/ >http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/3dfx_v3_3000/ >http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/reviews/video/hercules_tnt2ultra/ >http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/reviews/video/elsa_erazor3/ >http://www.gamecenter.com/Hardware/Roundup/Voo3vstnt2/ >http://www.gamecenter.com/Hardware/Roundup/3dgraphics/ >http://www.anandtech.com >http://www.zdnet.com >P.S. Oh yeah, the lame matra of "features for what you -might- play >tomorrow" is recycled over and over again. A couple of recent examples are >a) the introduction to the mainstream of the 3D hardware accelerator. >People didnt think you'd need or want it or it was too expensive, so there >were naysayers. b) forcefeedback. Gee, how many folks just went out and >bought new FF wheels because of GPL1.1? Mms. Of course there are always >things like 3D glasses that just have either never worked, never worked well >enough or just generally failed to catch.

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

>Note however that these benchmarks focus on 400 MHz machines and >higher. If you've got benchmarks on P300's for the TNT2 and Voodoo3, >I'd like to see them! [admitting to not having read the previous post...] I believe Tom's Hardware and/or Anandtech had some reviews on lesser machines. The 3dfx cards tend to lose less fps than the TNT's. That is, they perform relatively better than the TNT's as the CPU gets slower. But my point is that basically these two cards have very similar framerate performance. Whether one is 5-10% faster or slower on some shooter may matter, or may not. Note that Computer *** Worlds "game gauge" (and new version thereof) indicate that what has better performance in one game might not in another. And that sims seem to be more processor dependent (ie, lower framerate, and less difference(?). So, I'd make my choice based on: What games do you play? Do they support Glide? Glide only? How many old legacy titles? Do they support the extra features the TNT has (32 bit color, higher bit textures, AGP xx)? How long do you plan to hold onto this new card? That is, if you are willing to buy the next gen (which, surprise, will perform much better) in 6-8 months, why pay for AGP 4x (which your MB doesn't support) or 32 bit now? How much do you want to spend? Especially in light of how quickly you might turn around the card. Guess you can tell by my wording that I favor the 3dfx. But you may favor the TNT2. Especially if looking to the future and not planning yet another upgrade soon. I wish we could all get away from the TNT/3dfx religious wars and the over-emphasis of 5-10% differences in games most of us don't play.

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>>Note however that these benchmarks focus on 400 MHz machines and >>higher. If you've got benchmarks on P300's for the TNT2 and Voodoo3, >>I'd like to see them! >[admitting to not having read the previous post...] >I believe Tom's Hardware and/or Anandtech had some reviews on lesser machines. >The 3dfx cards tend to lose less fps than the TNT's. That is, they perform >relatively better than the TNT's as the CPU gets slower.

Exactly. Unfortunately, I can't find any TNT2 vs. Voodoo3 benchmarks on his site that use anything less than 400's! It's one thing to compare the original TNT and Voodoo2 on a P300, but what about the newer boards. I think when you have a lot of people trying to extend the life of their machine by updating graphics cards, knowing which card is best for THEIR CPU speed is very important, and those that tout the TNT2 often use 450-500 Mhz benchmarks for their comparisons, but even Tom's Hardware site shows a slope beginning with the 400's and going up through 550's in which a level playing field turns lopsided towards TNT2 as you go up from 400. Below 400? Who knows? Were it not for GPL, I might have waited for prices to drop and bought a TNT2. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

I use a Voodoo 3 2000 PCI and A Diamond Viper 770 in the same Win98 System, 256mb ram, 30GB HD's, AbitBH6, PII400,SBlive, blah blah blah. I sold my Voodoo2 when I bought the TNT2, only to find that I couldn't get GPL to properly with the openGL patch. Didn't want to get a Voodoo2 again so got the Voodoo3PCI. I have a few games that run better in glide ie GPL,SCGT,Alien Vs Predator. So to change cards I reboot, change the Bios setting to AGP or PCI video card, go into windows and change the display adapters and reboot again. Doesn't take long a couple of minutes. I play GPL a lot (everynight), and there is nothing like playing it in 1280x1024 mode at 36fps. it flys with the Voodoo3. To many problems for me using the TNT2. Some people don't have any problems. I've used both cards a lot, both have the same clock settings and I can honestly say I use the TNT2 90% of the time because I think its the better card. If all you play is GPL, SCGT then stick with the V3, its much better. There is *** all difference between the cards when it comes to speed, the quality/Colour and look of the game images when using the TNT2 shits all over the V3. You really notice it when you get up close to objects. In this country you can buy a Viper770 32mb ram for $319.00 and a Voodoo3 3000 16mb for $450.00.........I think the TNT2 is the better value for money out here. Well that's my 2cents worth from someone who is using both cards......you guys can make up your own minds. > > I think you chose well. I own both cards and the TNT2 is better then my > > Voodoo3. > What, do you swap the cards when you want to play GPL? What are your system > specs? Generally V3 seems to get higher benchmarks, and all it doesn't do > are 32 bit colour and large textures. Let me assure you Q3test (the one all > TNT2 owners bang on about) still looks mighty fine on my v3 > colour effects, but it still looks fabulous and the framerate is superb. OTOH > I can run GPL (far more important than Q3test given that this is RAS) without > beta opengl drivers and without having to***around with mirror refresh > rates. > Unfortunately, it seems that the Voodoo has dropped out of fashion because it

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> doesn't have the features Carmack wants. > Mark > Reading, UK > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:10:49 -0500, "Chris Schletter" >I dont remember anyone stating that a V2 outperformed a TNT2. I'd like to >reread it and see what the person has. From Mark D, 17/7/99 1:17am "There are folks out there who claim to get better performance from their V2 than their TNT2 in SCGT (ouch)" from your reply to Mark I think you actually read it back to front. And FWIW, It was ME that said V2 runs better than TNT2 in SCGT. I have a 12MB Voodoo2, and a 32MB Asus V3800TVR running at default speed for both. The Glide version of SCGT is smoother than D3D, the only thing D3D and the TNT2 give me is an incredibly high resolution, which I don't really care about seeing as it slows down too much for real ***. Rest of system specs: Celeron 450A, 128MB RAM Ive played the demo for Expendable, and it's just eyecandy wrapped around one of the old top-down aracde shoot-em ups. NOTHING to compare it to Q3Arena. -- Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors Super Touring - Club Cars - Alfa Romeo http://fullspeed.to/astc Australian Super Touring News and Information

>TNT2: 17 fps >Voodoo2: 31 fps, and running rock stable Not exactly the fairest test given that the OpenGL is beta and that the Voodoo's Glide is native - how about trying the Voodoo2 in OpenGL mode... ;-) Cheers! John

Or run both from the F10 view so the mirrors aren't a factor... Eric

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>>TNT2: 17 fps >>Voodoo2: 31 fps, and running rock stable >Not exactly the fairest test given that the OpenGL is beta and that >the Voodoo's Glide is native - how about trying the Voodoo2 in OpenGL >mode... ;-) >Cheers! >John

Damn right I say we trash this voodoo head! He should LOWER the clock rate on the computer when using the V3! THIS TEST IS NOT FAIR! EVERYONE KNOWS THE TNT2 IS THE FASTEST CHIP OUT THERE . How about testing the TNT2 at 800x600 and the voodoo at 1024x768 and see what the reasults are! HA! Those *** voodoo heads are always running their games in glide mode and bragging that they get 10-20 fps more than the TNT2. It's just not fair!!!! We should *** their mothers and force them to use software mode, HA HA HA, Then let's see if they keep bragging!

Nice that Papy addressed those issues. Benefits of supported hardware, I guess. CPU. I am not disputing that the TNT2 is a more technologically advanced piece of kit than the V3. I very nearly bought one, but decided that as the whole reason I was buying a new PC was to play race sims - primarily GPL - it would be a bad move to risk having problems for the sake of features that -I- don't need for the foreseeable. I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure the latest RC shots were taken using a V2. I read that on the high gear forums, so you can check it out there if you like. I know they've had more than two efforts, but I've only played the last two, and IMHO they both were very poor - RC being worse. Learning from mistakes does not seem to be one of their strong points up to now. I really want a decent rally SIM but I don't think I'll get one soon. This is one area I truly hope I'm wrong on, though. Ugh! No thanks ;-) They could have posted on an action game forum, or a flight sim forum, or a graphics hardware forum. They chose RAS, so I reckon it's a fair assumption. For me, these are the only sims worth owning right now. I can't think of anything else that pushes hardware like them, either. TOCA2 (which I really don't like) is not exactly pushing hardware. Neither is Viper. I couldn't vouch for any two wheeler sims as that's not my bag, baby. I must admit that I find it easier dealing with what exists than predicting the future, so I guess we're opposed there. For example, in all the pre-release hype I was sure PowerVR would come out on top of 3Dfx all those years ago (I've worked for NEC in the past, so maybe there was bias there). I'm just glad I waited before I leapt. I guess people like me need early adopters like you to beat the path so that the more technically inept like myself can reap the benefits of tech that has been proven. So you bought FF because there were games that you played at that time that made use of it (like Viper, F1RS maybe, CMR). You didn't buy it in anticipation of it's features being used. You wouldn't -have- to buy a FF wheel if you hadn't back then. I don't have one and have no intention of getting one in the near future. I can play GPL just fine without it. Something I -might- not have been able to do had I bought a TNT2 (and I'm stessing the 'might' - 150 for me is a big gamble, no matter how 'sure thing' some say) . I also got a T2 replacement (as a gift from my wife) about 3 months ago. I went for the split axis, guaranteed dos compatible TMF1 (I'm not saying you can't use FF wheels with DOS, but I'm under the impression that, like MS Sidewinder stuff, they're win9x devices). I specifically didn't want FF because knowing how often I'd had to tinker with the T2 I didn't fancy having to repair anything more complex. What I'll do is wait for those more brave/with higher expendable income than myself to give verdicts on their long term durability. If someone asked me what the best console they could buy right now was I'd probably tell them 'Dreamcast'. But if they asked what's the best console for playing racing games I'd say IMO PSX. That may change in the future (by which time we'll be thinking about PSX2...) Likewise someone asks what's the best all round gfx card for *** I'd say TNT2 without hesitation, but the best for racing? Well, IMO it's v3. That may change in the future (by which time we'll be thinking G600 [or whatever], TNT3, v4...) Probably the best thing to do is agree to disagree, yes? We're both racing sim fans with different outlooks. You get good performance with your TNT2, I get good performance with my v3. Let's shake hands and move on. Mark Reading, UK

Will you please get a prescription for Ritalin or something?? Please, please stop this garbage where you totally trash one system and the people that use it just because you think what you got is better (whether or not it actually is!). You just took a decent technical discussion and came into the room shouting your slogans. Please shut the f*** up !!!!! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

That's a bit harsh! The discussion turned into 'which card is best for GPL' and a TNT2 owner complained that the results weren't valid because the V2 wasn't running the openGL version!? I think sarcasm was a fair response... No-one disputes that a TNT2 is superior tech, but if only playing GPL is your thing... You pays your money, you takes your choice. Cheers Mark Reaing, UK Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

On MY system this is a fair test!! In other games the TNT2 runs really better, and I suppose if TNT2 Opengl was native in GPL it would run faster and at least better graphics. But GPL does not!! So -because I want fast graphics in GPL- I use the Voodoo2. Period. Rene

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>>>TNT2: 17 fps >>>Voodoo2: 31 fps, and running rock stable >>Not exactly the fairest test given that the OpenGL is beta and that >>the Voodoo's Glide is native - how about trying the Voodoo2 in OpenGL >>mode... ;-) >>Cheers! >>John >Damn right I say we trash this voodoo head! >He should LOWER the clock rate on the computer when using the V3! >THIS TEST IS NOT FAIR! >EVERYONE KNOWS THE TNT2 IS THE FASTEST CHIP OUT THERE . >How about testing the TNT2 at 800x600 and the voodoo at 1024x768 and >see what the reasults are! >HA! >Those *** voodoo heads are always running their games in glide mode >and bragging that they get 10-20 fps more than the TNT2. It's just >not fair!!!! >We should *** their mothers and force them to use software mode, HA >HA HA, Then let's see if they keep bragging!

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>You should both qualify this by stating what system you're running on. >If you go to toms hardware you'll see that the advantage of the TNT2 >is minimal on slower machines (and I'm sad to say my P300 is now a >"slower machine"), whereas as you get to 400's and 500's the TNT2 >takes off like a rocket. So if you're stuck with a slower machine, >the TNT2 hardware may not be worth buying at this price point. >Besides, the Voodoo3 can be had REAL cheap from Buy.com, and it runs >everything great in 16-bit color, and was a great AGP solution for me.

First off anyone who believe what Tom Pabst has to say needs to get a check up. It has been proven over and over, not only by the normal people but by the industry that Tom is full of balony. Toms Vaporware Review http://www.tomsvaporware.com or http://tomsvaporware.com Home of the "UNBIASED" review!

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>>TNT2: 17 fps >>Voodoo2: 31 fps, and running rock stable >Not exactly the fairest test given that the OpenGL is beta and that >the Voodoo's Glide is native - how about trying the Voodoo2 in OpenGL >mode... ;-) >Cheers! >John

And the Voodoos OpenGL is beta, whats the point? Toms Vaporware Review [link lost in import] or [link lost in import] Home of the "UNBIASED" review!

Ok troll...unfortunately, Im going to run my games in the best available API, and glide is it. Why would I run in anything less. Toms Vaporware Review [link lost in import] or [link lost in import] Home of the "UNBIASED" review!

You dont need to change it everytime...there are software programs that allow you to switch. Toms Vaporware Review [link lost in import] or [link lost in import] Home of the "UNBIASED" review!

On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:48:36 -0500, "Chris Schletter"

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>> It depends. >Yup. >> I almost went with the well hyped TNT2, but decided to go with the >> unfashionable non-boastworthy v3 3000 because, although it doesn't do >32bit >> colour and large textures, it is more suited to what I play - GPL and >SCGT. >Unfashionable? Heh, ok..you are going a bit out there on a limb with that >one. And the Voodoo3 series was way more hyped than the TNT2s. Heck, I >dont recall ever seeing any NVidia commercials on tv, but tons of (in some >cases rather good) Voodoo3 commercials from 3dfx. >SCGT runs better in D3D anyways. :)

Actually....those were 3dfx commercials, not Voodoo3 commercials. Secondly the TNT chipsets (TNT1 and 2) are more hyped then anything out there, only to have less specs then what promised. Toms Vaporware Review http://www.tomsvaporware.com or http://tomsvaporware.com Home of the "UNBIASED" review!

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>>>Note however that these benchmarks focus on 400 MHz machines and >>>higher. If you've got benchmarks on P300's for the TNT2 and Voodoo3, >>>I'd like to see them! >>[admitting to not having read the previous post...] >>I believe Tom's Hardware and/or Anandtech had some reviews on lesser machines. >>The 3dfx cards tend to lose less fps than the TNT's. That is, they perform >>relatively better than the TNT's as the CPU gets slower. >Exactly. Unfortunately, I can't find any TNT2 vs. Voodoo3 benchmarks >on his site that use anything less than 400's! It's one thing to >compare the original TNT and Voodoo2 on a P300, but what about the >newer boards. I think when you have a lot of people trying to extend >the life of their machine by updating graphics cards, knowing which >card is best for THEIR CPU speed is very important, and those that >tout the TNT2 often use 450-500 Mhz benchmarks for their comparisons, >but even Tom's Hardware site shows a slope beginning with the 400's >and going up through 550's in which a level playing field turns >lopsided towards TNT2 as you go up from 400. Below 400? Who knows?

Ill be slapping up my comparison of TNT2 vs Voodoo3 once my TNT2 board gets here...both on a P233 and a AMD K6-2 /333 Toms Vaporware Review http://www.tomsvaporware.com or http://tomsvaporware.com Home of the "UNBIASED" review!

On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:10:49 -0500, "Chris Schletter"

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>> Never seen a V3 commercial. I'm in the UK, and the vibe on the internet >is >> very pro-TNT2, anti V3 and I'm guessing this is primarily because it >doesn't >> have features Carmack wants. I just think it would be bad form to >recommend >> a platform to a racing sim fanatic that might give them GPL trouble. >> I run SCGT, TOCA2, N2 and GPL without a hitch. >Trust me, they are ALL over the place in the US. TV, Radio, etc. :) >Mms...I guess I haven't gotten that vibe from the internet. In fact, they >keep hammering away that the V3 is a very good card and good value, but it >just lacks the more advanced features of some of the other cards.

Can you be any more wrong? Its a 3dfx commercial, not a Voodoo3. Never heard one on the radio either, the marketing was never mentioned on the radio. Wrong again. So thats 2. Oh so you want to pay $100+ more for features that are rarely used? And Carmack is full of patooey also...claiming this and that when the damn game (Q3A), isnt even released. By the time it is, the next Gen cards will be out. IMO Q3A is boring and I wont buy it anyway. All eye candy. Just wait till Unreal Tourni comes out :) Toms Vaporware Review http://www.tomsvaporware.com or http://tomsvaporware.com Home of the "UNBIASED" review!

Fine, then provide me the benchmarks I asked for and stop with the insults. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

The point is when native Voodoo support beats beta OpenGL it's lauded as being great - the reverse comparison should also be taken into account. Cheers! John

John Wallace schrieb: > >And the Voodoos OpenGL is beta, whats the point? > The point is when native Voodoo support beats beta OpenGL it's lauded > as being great - the reverse comparison should also be taken into > account. Should we have the same rules for graphic card benchmarks as we have for touring car races? If a car is too fast, put some additional wheight in it to slow it down. I don't think so. It's a circle: wait till the OGL patch is out, wait till the drivers are optimized. I'm playing now, I want the card that's best now, not half a year later. The price of a V3 allows its replacement in half a year, THEN I'll be looking again for the new features actually needed by new games... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Voodoo3-3000 16MB AGP for $319 for the OEM. Don't know where you got $450 from. Value for money is a subjective thing. It's not good value when all your games run better in Glide mode. *owner of 32MB Asus TNT2 and 12MB Voodoo2* -- Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors Super Touring - Club Cars - Alfa Romeo http://fullspeed.to/astc Australian Super Touring News and Information

The whole AGP issue of memory texturing is useless for gamers. Any video card that has to use system memory for graphic textures will reveal a serious bottleneck in framerates. Luckily, I don't think there are any applications that require more than 16 MB of texture memory for 16 bit or 32 MB for 32 bit so what difference does it make if the card support AGP texturing or not? -Tim

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> > Besides, the Voodoo3 can be had REAL cheap from Buy.com, and it runs > > everything great in 16-bit color, and was a great AGP solution for me. > Too bad its not really an AGP solution at all, just is able to sit in the > AGP slot and does take advantage of the slightly faster AGP bus but still > uses its own proprietary memory transfer. > Nonetheless, yes thats something that we've all been forgetting is to > qualify with the type of computer because the TNT2 does take "off" more

with > higher end machines. However, it should be noted that while apparently its

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> not nearly as weighted as the TNT2, the same thing happens with the > Voodoo3s. > > >I think you chose well. I own both cards and the TNT2 is better then my > > >Voodoo3. > > >The only hassle you'll have is running GPL. Use the OpenGL beta2 patch > and > > >it might solve your problems. Make sure you use the latest Nvidia > Reference > > >drivers (2.08 I think) > > >Every game game I own looks and runs much better on the TNT2. Voodoo3 > > >however runs GPL flawlessly with all mirror detail at 1280x1024 res > 36fps. > > >Opengl mode at this res. does some very strange things! > > >> I'm sure this has been discussed before. I am having a new computer

put > > >> together tomorrow and in an indecisive fit I chose the Diamond TNT2. I > > >> am having second thoughts to the Voodoo3 3000. Any suggestions. > > >> Andrew > > Randy Magruder > > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Are you sure? I believe Carmack is the only developer who has publicly stated he would like to see 32 bit color become standard.. If I'm wrong, then Who?? Also, by the time Quake 3 is release (late Nov/Early Dec), V3 & TNT2 will be old tech anyway.

On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:54:05 +0200, Ronald Stoehr >Should we have the same rules for graphic card benchmarks as we have >for touring car races? If a car is too fast, put some additional wheight >in it to slow it down. I don't think so. No, what you are proposing is that if one car has better straightline speed and the other corners better that you should only test the straightline speed - and then only on a track that suits the car. You need to consider the all aspects to get an overall picture, particularly when recommending it for another driver. Likewise, I'm playing now - both cards are available now and work now. For you perhaps, but I doubt everyone can throw away a 100+ card every six months. Cheers! John