SCGT Vs Toca 2...

In a message on 14/07/99 I said: And then Mark Rael responded with: So I said: From what I have read on RAS, most people seem to agree that SCGT is much better than Toca 2, but to be sure I would like to see if this is true or not. Which do YOU think is better? My money is most certainly on SCGT! Excellent physics. Excellent graphics. Excellent layout. Excellent options. It's a simulator, not an arcade racer just Toca 2. It has many more cars, all of which act entirely different to each other. I was especially pleased by the difference between Donnington in both games. SCGT only goes to prove how bad it was built in both Toca 1 and 2. Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

Excuse me? Ok physics w/advanced options, yes...but not excellent with GPL and Viper Racing out there. They are ok, but not the best ever encountered Layout of what? Interface? Somewhat, yes. Missing key features though. To what? Heck, the release version didn't even have an option to save the ***pit view. And what about options to be able to save multiple car setups per car/track? No, definetly not "excellent options". Um....probably the best way to describe it, is that it bridges the gap between arcade (and many would debate that toca2 is pure arcade) and simulators like Viper or GPL Yes, to some extent they do. But the biggest drawbacks are: AI is pathetic Multiplayer support is lacking. However, if it is your cup of tea, it can be both very good and very ***ive, especially if you want a game that drives more realistic than arcade racers but isn't as "hard" as something on the order of GPL.

>From what I have read on RAS, most people seem to agree that SCGT is >much better than Toca 2, but to be sure I would like to see if this is >true or not. The only truth that matters is whether YOU like one better than the other. Enjoy what you enjoy and never let anyone here on this newsgroup tell you what you should or should not enjoy. I don't care which one you prefer. HAVE FUN, for crying out loud! They are both simulators. And how do you feel about the disgrace known as SCGT Laguna Seca. Having driven that track personally I refuse to race a single lap on the SCGT version. It's so disgustingly different from the real track it's not worth it. If you want to see what Laguna REALLY is like check out EA's SBK Superbike or even the new Dreamcast CART game. The track accuracy is amazing in those two games. TOCA 2 does a fine job with most tracks, from what I've heard Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:49:39 -0500, "Chris Schletter" > Excuse me? Ok physics w/advanced options, yes...but not excellent with GPL > and Viper Racing out there. GPL is very different to SCGT. They're both simulators, but at the same time they're both in a league of their own. Personally, I've found SCGT to be more ***ive than GPL, but GPL still remains one of, if not 'the' best simulator of its time. Viper Racing was cack. Nice graphics and car handling (although since I haven't driven a Dodge Viper, I can't say whether or not it's realistic), but beyond that, very boring indeed. True, but just look at the reflections on the ground when rain is switched on! Such as? Options like night and day, wet or try, upgrades for your car, different leagues, all constitutes as excellent. I've found the AI to be pretty darn good, especially when you turn up the difficulty level. Agreed. Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

I'm afraid they're not. Toca 2 can not be concidered a simulator. Just because you have a minute garage where you can tinker with one or two options does not constitute a 'simulator'. You can do just as much tweaking in Ultimate Race Pro. ;-) I don't like Laguna Seca very much, period. SBK did a fine job with Laguna Seca, it is true. But as I said, I don't like the track itself very much, so I don't tend to race on it very often. Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

<< even the new Dreamcast CART game Which game is this? What kind of physics model does it have? Thanks, Sky

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> >From what I have read on RAS, most people seem to agree that SCGT is > >much better than Toca 2, but to be sure I would like to see if this is > >true or not. > The only truth that matters is whether YOU like one better than the > other. Enjoy what you enjoy and never let anyone here on this > newsgroup tell you what you should or should not enjoy. I don't care > which one you prefer. HAVE FUN, for crying out loud! > >My money is most certainly on SCGT! > >Excellent physics. > >Excellent graphics. > >Excellent layout. > >Excellent options. > >It's a simulator, not an arcade racer just Toca 2. > >It has many more cars, all of which act entirely different to each > >other. > They are both simulators. > >I was especially pleased by the difference between Donnington in both > >games. SCGT only goes to prove how bad it was built in both Toca 1 and > >2. > And how do you feel about the disgrace known as SCGT Laguna Seca. > Having driven that track personally I refuse to race a single lap on > the SCGT version. It's so disgustingly different from the real track > it's not worth it. If you want to see what Laguna REALLY is like > check out EA's SBK Superbike or even the new Dreamcast CART game. The > track accuracy is amazing in those two games. TOCA 2 does a fine job > with most tracks, from what I've heard > Randy > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

If thats the case, then Need For Speed or the Test Drive series become simulators. Better physics than SCGT, better job of handling car setups, better job of implementing career racing. Rest of it was sorta lame, like no sense of speed, all fantasy tracks (that would be unreal to race on....unless its a rally), etc. Yawn..there are some screwups. And hey, where is the rain coming from? Where are the rooster tails? :) Not to mention, their environmental mapping feature looked horrid... And lack of ability to save setups? Lack of any telemtry options? Hard to use options in setting race length, etc? Heh. It is? Lets see. They can't corner worth a damn, so to make up for it the game cheats and gives them higher acceleration and top speed than normal. Even on max settings its easy to beat them, especially in longer races, except for the GT1 class and thats where you can really see the code cheating.

I haven't played SCGT so I cant comment on that, but i have done a couple of motorcycle track days at Donnington and i personally think both TOCA games done a pretty good job of Donnington. Mark London UK

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:58:51 GMT, LOL!! -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

the physics engine is what makes a game a sim or not, not the amount of car altering options, and the codemasters physics engine is pretty strong..... pez

> the physics engine is what makes a game a sim or not, not the amount of car > altering options, and the codemasters physics engine is pretty strong..... Actually, the physics engine has little to do with it. To be considered a simulator it must have a tweakable garage, for starters. The garage in SBK was a bare minimum, but in Toca 2 it was just there for show and had little impact on the handling of the cars itself. Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:01:16 -0500, "Chris Schletter"

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> > GPL is very different to SCGT. They're both simulators, but at the > > same time they're both in a league of their own. Personally, I've > > found SCGT to be more ***ive than GPL, but GPL still remains one > > of, if not 'the' best simulator of its time. > If thats the case, then Need For Speed or the Test Drive series become > simulators.

If what is the case? The physics in Viper Racing weren't half as good as they are in SCGT. You can feel every twist and turn of the cars in SCGT, but in Viper Racing the car simply slid around every demanding corner. Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:55:43 +0100, "Mark Aisthorpe" > I haven't played SCGT so I cant comment on that, but i have done a couple of > motorcycle > track days at Donnington and i personally think both TOCA games done a > pretty good > job of Donnington. I thought so too, until I saw both of the Donnington tracks in SCGT. Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

>I'm afraid they're not. Toca 2 can not be concidered a simulator. >Just because you have a minute garage where you can tinker with one or two >options does not constitute a 'simulator'. I don't recall arguing that TOCA 2 was a simulator for the reasons you gave, but for rather different reasons. I ask you quite frankly. What is a simulator? This is meaningless. I can transfer power to different systems in X-Wing Alliance... Ah, well, that settles it. You don't like Laguna Seca, so therefore we can exclude it from all consideration of the job that was done on it in SCGT! Well, I'm glad you enjoy the game. But you have to admit, dismissing the gross track inaccuracy problems just because you don't like the real life track is rather lame from a debate standpoint. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

I played it at E3 with SCGT afficionado Art Axelrad. We were kinda hooked to it for a few hours (sheepish grin). It'll be out formally here on September 9. Definitely the simplified physics model but with very realistic CART-style environment. I found it enjoyable. Some AI flaws which were real bastards, particularly on ovals, but as I said, they did a great job in many respects, particularly with frame rate and graphics. Randy

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><< even the new Dreamcast CART game >Which game is this? What kind of physics model does it have? >Thanks, >Sky >> >From what I have read on RAS, most people seem to agree that SCGT is >> >much better than Toca 2, but to be sure I would like to see if this is >> >true or not. >> The only truth that matters is whether YOU like one better than the >> other. Enjoy what you enjoy and never let anyone here on this >> newsgroup tell you what you should or should not enjoy. I don't care >> which one you prefer. HAVE FUN, for crying out loud! >> >My money is most certainly on SCGT! >> >Excellent physics. >> >Excellent graphics. >> >Excellent layout. >> >Excellent options. >> >It's a simulator, not an arcade racer just Toca 2. >> >It has many more cars, all of which act entirely different to each >> >other. >> They are both simulators. >> >I was especially pleased by the difference between Donnington in both >> >games. SCGT only goes to prove how bad it was built in both Toca 1 and >> >2. >> And how do you feel about the disgrace known as SCGT Laguna Seca. >> Having driven that track personally I refuse to race a single lap on >> the SCGT version. It's so disgustingly different from the real track >> it's not worth it. If you want to see what Laguna REALLY is like >> check out EA's SBK Superbike or even the new Dreamcast CART game. The >> track accuracy is amazing in those two games. TOCA 2 does a fine job >> with most tracks, from what I've heard >> Randy >> Randy Magruder >> http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Hello Thomas; {Thomas I had to reply on RAS since your email was sent back!} I'll re: below ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:11 PM Subject: Re: TO ALL !!

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> Yes Andre! Icr3 or Cart3 if they made it like GPL ;O) > Hint Hint!! Also they can patch, fix, bandaid, glue it or > whatever! Imho; Gpl is the best sim I have ever raced > and would really like to see Cart upgraded to it! > Cheers Again Thom_j. > P.S. Randy; Give yourself & any other programer a > job well done on Gpl patch 1.1. I like it.. Yes it has > changed but I still like most of the changes..

% I've been hooked on GPL since I bought it a short while % ago, but I'm enjoying SCGT a tad more at the moment. % Have you tried it? % Thomas Ford Yes Thomas, I have SCGT. I do think it's ok but I do prefer open***pit racing. I know you can set the view for a open view and if I can ever get rid of 'Gpl Fever' I'll give SCGT a serious try/effort. It's just I've had the Gpl bug since I got it! To be honest though; When I got the Gpl demo I hated it & was never going to buy it. On my old P-166 it ran like crap. Well I moved up to a P2-266 & then it all started. Now about $1500+ later and system that kicks I love Gpl! So everytime I try to start other sims {& I have many} the wrotten Gpl keeps calling & calling.. lol ;O) I use to run Icr2 hours apon hours & now it is Gpl. That's why I was wishing for Icr3 or Cart3 with the Gpl engine.I have N2, SBK, ICR2, SCGT, Moto Racer2 {for fun}& more but Gpl just has something that draws me back! I raced 'motorcycles' professionally from 1968-74 and I was sponsored by Harley Davidson. So I'll be anxiously awaiting the new AMA Motorcycle Sim coming out but I hope it is not another arcade type junk sim!? I do like SBK a lot!! Anyway thanx for the email!! Also I'm on Vroc daily and nighlty so if ya wanna race just drop in. We have many from the UK and I know you will enjoy our chats & racing......Cheers Thom_j.

To quote Ed Bain, "LOL!"

No kidding. Laguna is one of my favorite tracks, of course so is Portland, Mid-Ohio and Road America, Road Atlanta too which SCGT didn't get right either.

Seems pretty obvious that most respondents think SCGT has a bit more realistic physics model and setup capability, but that TOCA2 has better tracks. The physics of both are pretty lame, and car setup changes in SCGT do not act realistic at all. TOCA2's physics is not too different from NFS#, and its setup capability is very similar to NFS#. The track implementation in TOCA2 is much better than SCGT. Fantasy tracks cannot be compared, of course, but it is true that SCGT's Laguna Seca is pretty bad when compared to the real thing. The graphics are both OK, and seem a wee bit better in TOCA2 as far as colors, lighting effects, and weather effects are concerned. The AI in both are similar - they are a lot better than N2 or ICR2, but of course pale in comparison to GPL, like everything else. Layout in SCGT is a bit obscure, but is much friendlier than TOCA2 (I presume that means the menu screen configurations). I don't particularly enjoy having to key (not click) through a bunch of repetitive menus to get to the race. For example, the driver name in TOCA2 ought to be in the option setups rather than an in-line option that you have to key past every time. Neither can compare to GPL for simplicity and effectiveness. Options? Both have them. What does it matter when you access the option setups only once or twice during a month of racing? The gameplay in both is pretty good, and is a lot of fun. Neither are particularly challenging, but I enjoy both when I just want to kick back and go for a ride. Again, being spoiled by GPL does not diminish my enjoyment or appreciation of either of these, but with their stupid and/or obstinate AI it just ain't as much fun during a race as it is with the AI in GPL. It simply is not as much work.

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> Which do YOU think is better? > My money is most certainly on SCGT! > Excellent physics. > Excellent graphics. > Excellent layout. > Excellent options. > It's a simulator, not an arcade racer just Toca 2. > It has many more cars, all of which act entirely different to each > other. > I was especially pleased by the difference between Donnington in both > games. SCGT only goes to prove how bad it was built in both Toca 1 and > 2.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Neither are particularly challenging, but I enjoy both when I just want to kick back and go for a ride. I like it that you are finally willing to put your money where your mouth is, unlike alot of the know-it-alls around here. So, how fast a driver ARE you in Toca2 or GPL?? Its easier to be a 'statesman of ras' than to actually produce times that mean anything ..all these learned opinions about handling from people who are several seconds off the pace! Its a joke. The ones who know the most about comparitive car handling are the ones who are the most accomplished at driving. If you cantmanage competitive levels in the game, then who are you to make catagorical statements about the game (Thomas Ford, etc.etc.)?? Talk is cheap, opinions are a dime a dozen, ..and all this from people who never mention their accomplishments behind the wheel! Thats whats lopsided about this joint.. all this 'enlightenment' from people who cant even drive properly. You dont know what these games are made of 'driving at the limit' ..you only know your OWN humble limits, and the opinion thats results therefrom. MR Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

TOCA2 is excellent when racing in a LAN with my girlfriend. She will have to practice many many hours in GPL before reaching my -not really too high (but much experience in all sorts of simulation programs)- standards, which will***her off, but TOCA is much fun driving together. Rene

On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:32:58 -0500, "Chris Schletter" > > The physics in Viper Racing weren't half as good as they are in SCGT. > > You can feel every twist and turn of the cars in SCGT, but in Viper > > Racing the car simply slid around every demanding corner. > To quote Ed Bain, "LOL!" What in my above statement is there to laugh at? It's the truth! Viper Racing is daft! Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

Very dificult to define. Personally, I can not concider a simulator to be a simulator without a detailed garage, like the ones in CART Precision Racing, GPL, Viper Racing and SCGT. But just because a racing game has a garage can not mean it is a 'simulator'. Toca 2 has a pathetic garage, and in Toca 1 it was non existent. Would you concider Ultimate Race Pro a simulator because it simulates car racing? No it isn't. It would be wrong of me to comment on Laguna Seca if I don't know about it. I've seen races on the television at Laguna Seca, but I'm not entirely sure which sim gets as close to the real thing as possible. You say it's SBK and I believe you. Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

I only with there were a REAL oval in SCGT. Perhaps we'll see an N2/SCGT track converter one day, but I'm not holding my breath. Has anybody ever attempted to create one for two entirely different sims, made by two entirely different companies? Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

> Hello Thomas; {Thomas I had to reply on RAS since > your email was sent back!} I'll re: below Did you remove nospam from my e-mail address? Did you have a decent 3D accelerator, such as a Voodoo2? That would have sped things along a bit. What type of motorcycle? I own a small motorcycle which gets me from A to B, as well as my car. I used to race motorcycles at an off-road motorcycle club, but I haven't done it in a few years. I look forward to it! Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

> Seems pretty obvious that most respondents think SCGT has a bit > more realistic physics model and setup capability, but that TOCA2 has > better tracks. The physics of both are pretty lame, and car setup > changes in SCGT do not act realistic at all. Actually, when you spend time tweaking the garage setups in SCGT for a while, you WILL notice quite a difference in car performance. Not quite on the same level as GPL mind you, which was aparent from the very start of a race. Switch on wet track effects in SCGT and then come back and say that the lighting and weather effects in SCGT aren't better than they are in Toca 2. You're right there! After spending most of last night playing SCGT I am beginning to notice flaws in its design. However, I still find it to be one of the most enjoyable and realistic simulators on the PC. Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

As Ed and Chris said: "LOL!" and may I add.. ROFLMAO ;) Scott PA-Scott -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

You either stayed up past your bedtime or are living in a dream world. I just don't believe you would make a statement like that. Paul

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> On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:32:58 -0500, "Chris Schletter" > > > The physics in Viper Racing weren't half as good as they are in SCGT. > > > You can feel every twist and turn of the cars in SCGT, but in Viper > > > Racing the car simply slid around every demanding corner. > > To quote Ed Bain, "LOL!" > What in my above statement is there to laugh at? It's the truth! > Viper Racing is daft! > Thomas Ford > "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

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> And how do you feel about the disgrace known as SCGT Laguna Seca. > Having driven that track personally I refuse to race a single lap on > the SCGT version. It's so disgustingly different from the real track > it's not worth it. If you want to see what Laguna REALLY is like > check out EA's SBK Superbike or even the new Dreamcast CART game. The > track accuracy is amazing in those two games. TOCA 2 does a fine job > with most tracks, from what I've heard

Hey Randy, I've been playing SCGT for awhile now and I have no clue what the real Laguna Seca track is like. Can you describe what is different? Thanks man! -Tim

> You either stayed up past your bedtime or are living in a dream world. I > just don't believe you would make a statement like that. Paul The car(s?) in Viper Racing handle no where near as well as they do in SCGT, especially when run in Arcade mode. Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

> The ones who know the most about comparitive car handling are the > ones who are the most accomplished at driving. If you cantmanage > competitive levels in the game, then who are you to make catagorical > statements about the game (Thomas Ford, etc.etc.)?? I can manage car handling just fine, thanks all the same. Thanks to the internet we can actually read and SEE other peoples performances, so no it isn't just our own humble limits which we can comment on. Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

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>> I don't recall arguing that TOCA 2 was a simulator for the reasons you >> gave, but for rather different reasons. I ask you quite frankly. >> What is a simulator? >Very dificult to define. Personally, I can not concider a simulator to >be a simulator without a detailed garage, like the ones in CART >Precision Racing, GPL, Viper Racing and SCGT.

Well, what good was the garage in CART Precision racing without tire temperatures to help you make setup changes? And with the physics model so out of whack and very little increased downforce at high speeds, what diff does it make? OF1R, while not as detailed, has more effect from the garage and it is easier to identify setup changes than does CPR, which had all you could want, but no means to identify when you should change them! So if someone comes out with a Miata simulator, it can't be considered a simulator unless it has a complete garage?! It could be the most accurate simulator ever built, but because it's a simulator of a stock '99 Miata, it can't be considered a sim by you because you can't go into the garage and change a bunch of stuff. I'm sorry, but I feel that your definition of simulator has little to do with the meaning of the word, but at least you know what you want. Track accuracy can be a very big turn-on or turn-off. I don't claim that SCGT is not a sim because they screwed up Laguna Seca...neither would I say TOCA 2 is not a sim because it has a weak garage. Neither of the two of them determine whether or not there is a simulation there. Any physical model which "gets" the concept of weight transfer and the friction circle is a sim to me...but some do a better job than others, and some are closer to the real thing than others. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Mark, To be fair, Jacques Villeneuve only qualified 18th on Grand Prix 2 when learning Spa, only to go and take the pole in real life. Would you argue that since many here on r.a.s. would blow Villeneuve's doors off on GP2, he can't be considered an authority on comparative car handling? Randy

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> Neither are particularly challenging, but I enjoy both when I just >want to kick back and go for a ride. > I like it that you are finally willing to put your money where your >mouth is, unlike alot of the know-it-alls around here. So, how fast a >driver ARE you in Toca2 or GPL?? Its easier to be a 'statesman of ras' >than to actually produce times that mean anything ..all these learned >opinions about handling from people who are several seconds off the >pace! Its a joke. > The ones who know the most about comparitive car handling are the >ones who are the most accomplished at driving. If you cantmanage >competitive levels in the game, then who are you to make catagorical >statements about the game (Thomas Ford, etc.etc.)?? > Talk is cheap, opinions are a dime a dozen, ..and all this from >people who never mention their accomplishments behind the wheel! >Thats whats lopsided about this joint.. all this 'enlightenment' from >people who cant even drive properly. You dont know what these games >are made of 'driving at the limit' ..you only know your OWN humble >limits, and the opinion thats results therefrom. >MR >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

The biggest, most disastrous error is in the corkscrew. If you would like to see a lap around Laguna Seca in real life, go to www.laguna-seca.com and look at their lap video, or you can look at still photos going around the track. There are no 'floppy' stick up cones at the entrance to the corkscrew, and the curbing is actually elevated on either side, and not just a strip of colored paint. It's also more of an elevation change, and there are camber changes throughout. There are other cases where curbs are missing or wrong, and camber throughout is messed up. But as I said, watch the in-car video from the track web site a few times, and compare it to what you see in SCGT, and the differences become apparent. EA's SuperBike and Sega's Dreamcast versions are the best I've seen. Cheers, Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

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> Mark, > To be fair, Jacques Villeneuve only qualified 18th on Grand Prix 2 > when learning Spa, only to go and take the pole in real life. Would > you argue that since many here on r.a.s. would blow Villeneuve's doors > off on GP2, he can't be considered an authority on comparative car > handling? > Randy

Randy, Interesting, but I have to believe that that much ballyhooed 18th qualifying position of Jacques in GP2 is an unfair example :) All we know of Jacques attmept was basically 'finished 18th!' ..we have no idea how fast his system was or what details he had turned on, etc.etc.etc. I dont expect Jacques became fully racing-sim-computer- literate overnight ..who knows what wacky settings he may have been driving with! :) A more recent example of 'needing to know the score' is Toca2, where framerates and lap times are connected. In other words, if you ask too much detail of your system, the framerates drop and your registered laptimes go up. Ok? So my comments were pointed at members of the existing 'guild' of drivers, who've probably tried several 3D card drivers in the last month alone ) My irritation was with certain people who like to put down other games (than GPL), just because they can, and because they have a hen-house of like minded disciples around them. I'm waiting for these people to embrace racing itself ..and not just their tiny little corner of it, in the sim racing world. MR Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:24:47 GMT, huh? Who runs 'arcade' mode? The cars in Viper Racing have an incredible driving and physics model, FWIW.. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

Mark, your comments about the expertise of the persons offering commentary here are not relevant with respect to the points at hand. This thread involves comparative opinions of two popular sims, and is not based upon lap times. Just because you (and many others) are much faster than I does not mean that my opinion is invalid or any less worthwhile than your own. I do not appreciate being informed that I must be a record-setting driver to comment here. If your idea was adopted in RAS, then you and no more than a few others could have it to yourself. If you still think that your opinions are more important than mine because your laptimes are lower, then perhaps you should start a new forum, like "rec.autos.simulators.superstars" or some such crap. I appreciate what you have been doing to advance TOCA2 in the community, but this comment you have made is out of place and not welcome. I am not putting down SCGT or TOCA2. One of my points was that GPL is somewhat more realistic and sophisticated than either. That is simply a fact, and does not make SCGT or TOCA2 any less fun to drive. Unthanks. > My irritation was with certain people who like to put down other games > (than GPL), just because they can, and because they have a hen-house of > like minded disciples around them. I'm waiting for these people to > embrace racing itself ..and not just their tiny little corner of it, in > the sim racing world. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Thomas, after going back and looking at both in the wet, you do have a point. I guess my opinion on that was as much based on eye appeal more than playability effects. Yeah, SCGT is a tremendous lot of fun, and TOCA2 is a blast, too. Too bad that the SCGT car licenses did not permit damage effects. In TOCA2 the damage effects, while not very realistic, are certainly good looking. And it is possible to damage a car in either sim so badly that it becomes a "trackside object". However, you really have to work at breaking it, since in reality 100 mph collisions pretty well tear up the machinery but in these sims you lose a bit of driveability or show a broken windshield and bent car. Still, they are both outstanding sims. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Hi Terry, Yeah, you're mostly right. I couldnt stop someone from saying "Toca2 is crap, SCGT rules! nuff said" (or words to that effect), so instead I wanted to rub their nose in the sh*t of their own laptimes. It was a bad idea. MR Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

LOL! Very well said ... Sky

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> Mark, > To be fair, Jacques Villeneuve only qualified 18th on Grand Prix 2 > when learning Spa, only to go and take the pole in real life. Would > you argue that since many here on r.a.s. would blow Villeneuve's doors > off on GP2, he can't be considered an authority on comparative car > handling? > Randy > > Neither are particularly challenging, but I enjoy both when I just > >want to kick back and go for a ride. > > I like it that you are finally willing to put your money where your > >mouth is, unlike alot of the know-it-alls around here. So, how fast a > >driver ARE you in Toca2 or GPL?? Its easier to be a 'statesman of ras' > >than to actually produce times that mean anything ..all these learned > >opinions about handling from people who are several seconds off the > >pace! Its a joke. > > The ones who know the most about comparitive car handling are the > >ones who are the most accomplished at driving. If you cantmanage > >competitive levels in the game, then who are you to make catagorical > >statements about the game (Thomas Ford, etc.etc.)?? > > Talk is cheap, opinions are a dime a dozen, ..and all this from > >people who never mention their accomplishments behind the wheel! > >Thats whats lopsided about this joint.. all this 'enlightenment' from > >people who cant even drive properly. You dont know what these games > >are made of 'driving at the limit' ..you only know your OWN humble > >limits, and the opinion thats results therefrom. > >MR > >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

> Yeah, you're mostly right. I couldnt stop someone from saying "Toca2 is > crap, SCGT rules! nuff said" (or words to that effect), so instead I > wanted to rub their nose in the sh*t of their own laptimes. It was a > bad idea. That's all true enough. Unfortunately, those individuals so often kind of take over a thread that starts out with a legitimate technical or usage discussion, and then they turn it into a shouting match. After 50-60 messages is usually fizzles out with nobody happier and the original writers sorry they brought it up. Yeah, it was a bad idea, but you've got to be fed up with those twerps. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Thanks!

TOCA 2 is an excellent game - except the AI is atrocious. And it wasn't fixed properly in the patch ( I believe there is still some hope that this may be addressed). Handy.

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> In a message on 14/07/99 I said: > > Who wants to race TOCA 2 now that we have SCGT available? > And then Mark Rael responded with: > >How are you enjoying SCGT over the internet, dear? Is it as good as I > >hear? You had SCGT for one day Thomas Ford, and already the bullsh*t > >about how nothing compares to it? Check Randy Magruders article at > >Digitalsports, and grow up...before I throw-up. > So I said: > >Actually, having SCGT for such as short period of time should > >emphasise just how good it is! > >I'm sure many would agree... > From what I have read on RAS, most people seem to agree that SCGT is > much better than Toca 2, but to be sure I would like to see if this is > true or not. > Which do YOU think is better? > My money is most certainly on SCGT! > Excellent physics. > Excellent graphics. > Excellent layout. > Excellent options. > It's a simulator, not an arcade racer just Toca 2. > It has many more cars, all of which act entirely different to each > other. > I was especially pleased by the difference between Donnington in both > games. SCGT only goes to prove how bad it was built in both Toca 1 and > 2. > Thomas Ford > "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"