GPL and "old" video cards

Yeah I know... another guy who wants advice on which card to buy to run GPL. I have closely followed this NG for the last two weeks, I have read all the FAQs and the reviews out there on the Net. But I can't seem to get the answer I want. So it's your turn to have a go at it! :-) My PC is more than two years old (P200 MMX, 64 Mb). Bought it and a TM T2 for GP2, then bought ICR2, then bought F1RS and a Voodoo1 (Diamond Monster). When GPL came out, I rushed to the store to get it. If I turn off some details and keep the number of AI cars at a low number, I get OK FPS numbers (around 25). Now, with 1.1 and FF, I want to be a part of the game without putting too much money in my PC (that will get replaced in around 6 months). I have decided on the LWFF. And now, the question: If you had the choice between adding a Voodoo2 12 Mb to the mix or replacing my base video card (ATI Rage II) with a Hercules Thriller PCI 8 Mb, what would you do? This is to keep me having fun with GPL for the next 6 months and maybe go back for some F1RS before each "real" F1 Grand Prix. Thanks a lot for your help. Christian Gingras

>If you had the choice between adding a Voodoo2 12 Mb to the mix or replacing >my base video card (ATI Rage II) with a Hercules Thriller PCI 8 Mb, what >would you do? This is to keep me having fun with GPL for the next 6 months >and maybe go back for some F1RS before each "real" F1 Grand Prix. I would buy the V2. Rationale: the Rendition-based Hercules card is fine for GPL, but doesn't do too much for any non-Papyrus game (or sim, or whatever). Once you get your new computer, you can keep the V2 for Glide-only games and buy a really good main graphics card (TNT2, or something.) -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

> If you had the choice between adding a Voodoo2 12 Mb to the mix or replacing > my base video card (ATI Rage II) with a Hercules Thriller PCI 8 Mb, what > would you do? The bottleneck is the CPU, not the videocard. Replacing the V1 with a V2 is not going to make much difference on a 'slow' system like yours. So the Hercules might be the sensible choice here. But if you really want better fps, the cheapest route is a processor upgrade (if that's at all possible for your system). You'll find there's a lot of life left in the old V1. -- Bye, Leo

(Wolfgang Preiss) a crit : Thanks, your rationale is something to consider. How many additionnal FPS do you think the Voodoo2 card would give me on my system (would 36 FPS be possible at 800 x 600?). Can I use the Voodoo2 AND the Voodoo1 together, as I have a PCI slot avalaible and I could chain them with my main card? Will I get any improvement with the combination of the Voodoos? Christian Gingras

Thanks. Going the V2 route, how many additional FPS would I get on my system? Can I expect more from the Hercules? If so, does the actual pricing of Hercules (around 90$) make it a sensible choice for a 6-month use? Christian Gingras

Christian, No way for me to tell. Maybe others know. Don't expect miracles though. If a V1 doesn't give you 36 fps, chances are a V2 won't make it either. Probably yes. If my memory serves me well, the Thriller is better than the V2 in slow systems. Yes, by all means! Six months is a long time. If you can spend them playing GPL at 36 fps, you won't regret a single dollar (depending on your budget, ofcourse:-) Good luck, Leo

>My PC is more than two years old (P200 MMX, 64 Mb). Bought it and a TM T2 >for GP2, then bought ICR2, then bought F1RS and a Voodoo1 (Diamond Monster). >When GPL came out, I rushed to the store to get it. If I turn off some >details and keep the number of AI cars at a low number, I get OK FPS numbers

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>(around 25). >Now, with 1.1 and FF, I want to be a part of the game without putting too >much money in my PC (that will get replaced in around 6 months). I have >decided on the LWFF. >Christian Gingras

I've been fooling with a P166MMX , 64MB and cable modem while waiting for a replacement MB. With a Creative Banshee and the new 3Dfx reference drivers and G. Smiley's Glide wrapper, I can maintain 34-36 fps during online racing, with most of the mirror textures turned off, and the mirror refresh set to 3. The only FPS drops come on a crowded grid at the start, and I haven't seen below 24 in that situation. This is from a system that is 'tweaked' for maximum GPL performance.

Listen to me and listen good a V2 only works well with higher end cpu's. The Hercules Thriller 3d 8mb pci/agp was designed to run great on low end cpu's by doing most of the work on the video card. The Rendition card will give you the most bang for your buck. Trust me. I went through the same situation last year. p-133, 80 mb ram, win 98, Herc Thriller 3d 8mb pci, sb16 The rendition version of ICR2 is drop dead georgous. and in GPL, I get around 20-30 in trainer mode with some graphics. Also I have no MMX which really helps out.

I listened to you and I listened good -- interesting points. Here's my dilemma: I have a non-MMX PII 166 on a 2-year-old Spacewalker/Shuttle MB with not enough RAM (first and easiest fix) and a Stealth II S220 Rendition card. To run GPL, ICR2, and most mainstream racing sims (which is all I use the PC for -- I use a Mac for real work), would it be worthwhile for me to spring for an ABIT BX/BH/BP MB with an overclocked Celeron 433 and a Voodoo2 with pass-through so I can still use the Rendition chip for GPL, or am I talking through my hat? What's the best way to go here, keeping in mind that the PC is for games only, and I'd like to use a Logitech WingMan Formula Force? Thanks for the words of wisdom! Bart Brown Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

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>I listened to you and I listened good -- interesting points. Here's my >dilemma: I have a non-MMX PII 166 on a 2-year-old Spacewalker/Shuttle MB >with not enough RAM (first and easiest fix) and a Stealth II S220 >Rendition card. To run GPL, ICR2, and most mainstream racing sims (which >is all I use the PC for -- I use a Mac for real work), would it be >worthwhile for me to spring for an ABIT BX/BH/BP MB with an overclocked >Celeron 433 and a Voodoo2 with pass-through so I can still use the >Rendition chip for GPL, or am I talking through my hat? What's the best >way to go here, keeping in mind that the PC is for games only, and I'd >like to use a Logitech WingMan Formula Force?

Yes, you would definitely get a big boost from the faster CPU (~ +200%). For GPL, the Voodoo2 would be a moderate improvement (~ +25%). Even faster (and reasonably cheap) would be a new card like the Voodoo3/2000. However, then you couldn't use ICR-3D. :( I'd say do it incrementally -- the the MB & CPU & memory first, see how it goes. If you find a cheap Voodoo2, add that and compare. My own experience was similar -- I had a P133 & V1000 Rendition, went up to a C300A/450 last fall (coincidentally about 2 weeks after GPL was released ;), found the V1000 was OK for 640x480, but limiting frame rates (say 24 vs 36) in 800x600, so I got an 8meg Thriller V2200 and have been living more or less happily ever after. :) Downsides to the Thriller are its becoming more of an orphan day by day and for guys with large monitors, GPL frame rates for 1024x768 or larger are sub-par vs the Voodoos. Another thing I'll warn you of, though. I got my Thriller to be able to still run ICR-3D. However, once I got a machine that runs GPL well, it's been very rare for me to go back and run ICR-3D (as pretty as it is, and I love CART, GPL feels so much better). "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

I believe that to be a very feasible combination for you. If I had the money i would do the same. RENDITION RULEZ!!

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>(Wolfgang Preiss) a crit : >> I would buy the V2. Rationale: the Rendition-based Hercules card is >> fine for GPL, but doesn't do too much for any non-Papyrus game (or >> sim, or whatever). Once you get your new computer, you can keep the V2 >> for Glide-only games and buy a really good main graphics card (TNT2, >> or something.) >Thanks, your rationale is something to consider. How many additionnal FPS do >you think the Voodoo2 card would give me on my system

Difficult to tell... A P200? Not likely. I don't think so. It's possible to use two (identical) Voodoo2s in "SLI-mode" (the two cards are connected by a cable inside the computer) to achieve higher resolutions. It is even possible to SLI two Voodoo1s (which supposedly gives them the performance of a single Voodoo2, or so I heard.) But a Voodoo1 and a Voodoo2 will not work together, AFAIK. To come back to your initial question: the people who advised you that the Rendition card will give a higher performance gain on your computer are right. IIRC, the Rendition chip works better with slower machines than the Voodoo chip. But then, you have to consider that the Rendition card will be useful for a limited time only: once you get your new machine, say a PIII 500 or something, you will not want to keep the "old" Rendition card, which would limit the performance of your new setup. The Voodoo2 could then still be useful. If you are prepared to spend the money for a card which you will keep for only six months, then go for the Rendition (keeping in mind that it's not the best choice for anything not made by Papyrus.) Otherwise, get the Voodoo2. But I'm afraid neither card will allow you to enjoy GPL with FF at a reasonable framerate on your machine. The P200 just won't be enough. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.