GPL, Is anyone actually faster with FF? Because I am not!

Since the 1.1 patch I have been playing GPL both with and without FF. I have 2 game PC's so I leave my old wheel hooked up to one and the new FF wheel is on the other. As much as I like my Logitech Wingman Formula Force (it looks so damn good and the feel is great in my hands). I hate to admit that I am slower with it. I just started learning Zandvoort and after 3 days I am running around 1:32:90 with the brand new Logitech FF. I can do a 1:29:80 with my just rebuilt by Thrustmaster Nascar Pro. The Logitech is hooked up via USB, while the Nas Pro is hooked up through an AWE64 Gold's gameport. Frame rate is not an issue since both machines are Celery 464's and get a silky smooth 35.7 to 37 fps all the time with the same exact settings. I don't find the Logitech pedals to be a problem either, I just find that driving with FF seems much more realistic but also much more difficult. I definitely don't think having FF will be an advantage on VROC or later on in NASCAR 3 competitions.

Probably want to try lowering the force in the core.ini to about 60. I did that and it's MUCH better for me - my Logitech was fighting me more than giving me useful input at the default 225 - at 60 I can FEEL what's going on - it seemed before the wheel was just hard to turn. The default seemed to mask the subtle effects, it was just jerking the wheel around. I got this idea from Eric Cote's writeup on the Logitech (simracingmag.com I think) - and knowing how well he did setups for F1RS I'll trust him on this one :-) -- Ken's Sig 3.0 "Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan Kenobi Go #43 and #44! volksy (at) geocities (dot) com volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com >Since the 1.1 patch I have been playing GPL both with and without FF. I >have 2 game PC's so I leave my old wheel hooked up to one and the new FF >wheel is on the other. As much as I like my Logitech Wingman Formula >Force (it looks so damn good and the feel is great in my hands). I hate >to admit that I am slower with it. >I just started learning Zandvoort and after 3 days I am running around >1:32:90 with the brand new Logitech FF. I can do a 1:29:80 with my just >rebuilt by Thrustmaster Nascar Pro. The Logitech is hooked up via USB, >while the Nas Pro is hooked up through an AWE64 Gold's gameport. >Frame rate is not an issue since both machines are Celery 464's and get >a silky smooth 35.7 to 37 fps all the time with the same exact settings. >I don't find the Logitech pedals to be a problem either, I just find >that driving with FF seems much more realistic but also much more >difficult. I definitely don't think having FF will be an advantage on >VROC or later on in NASCAR 3 competitions.

If you are getting 37 fps them you are suffering from the slight speedup problem of gpl 1.1 this means thet you 1.32.9 lap probably only took 1.31 secs to run try checking the timer in a singleplayer game i think you will find it is faster than real time rob

I have timed laps with the new patch and find that the 'in car' replay's are spot on for time, but the TV1 replays are about 1.5 sec faster. So as long as the 'in car' time is 'real' I am just about happy so far. My system runs the game at a steady 37fps by the way. Steve

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>If you are getting 37 fps them you are suffering from the slight speedup >problem of gpl 1.1 >this means thet you 1.32.9 lap probably only took 1.31 secs to run >try checking the timer in a singleplayer game i think you will find it is >faster than real time >rob

I am also a bit slower with the new FF, by about 1.5secs on the average (at first) but in the last 2 days have gotten within about .5sec of my old times. What I do notice despite being slower is that my car control has gotten much better, I am not spinning near as much from overcontrol now that I can feel when the tires are about to lose traction. Overall, I'm hoping the being slower part is due to the new 1.1 timing issues (I get 37+ FPS all the time) but even if it isn't, I'm willing to go slower if it means that I feel in control and that the driving feels more like real life as it does with the new FF. We've always known the fastest way to drive with GPL is with a Joystick, but that doesn't mean I want to drive using one :-) I'm treating the FF slowdown the same way, even if it isn't related to 1.1 timing bugs, I'll definitely keep using it "I have seen the light" now and can never go back to the dark. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva >Since the 1.1 patch I have been playing GPL both with and without FF. I >have 2 game PC's so I leave my old wheel hooked up to one and the new FF >wheel is on the other. As much as I like my Logitech Wingman Formula >Force (it looks so damn good and the feel is great in my hands). I hate >to admit that I am slower with it.

>difficult. I definitely don't think having FF will be an advantage on >VROC or later on in NASCAR 3 competitions. I disagree. My driving is both much faster and more consistent with FF. I think many non-hotlap type drivers will find the same thing. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

I'm with Joe. My lap times faster and more consistent with FF. Each track does have a bit of a new learning curve, though. I'm starting to really enjoy the on-line experience now that I can sometimes make it to the first two or three rows at the start of a race. Man does that make a difference :) After that I'm finding that I'm not losing the car nearly as much with FF. That really pays off in a longer race, because as you know consistency can move you up the standings just as quick as a fast car. David Cook

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> >difficult. I definitely don't think having FF will be an advantage on > >VROC or later on in NASCAR 3 competitions. > I disagree. My driving is both much faster and more consistent with > FF. I think many non-hotlap type drivers will find the same thing. > Joe McGinn > ========================================== > Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network > [link lost in import: /***.com/] > ==========================================

I am having different results depending on which track I run. Keep in mind two things: 1- I stink to begin with 2- I have not had much practice time with the patch yet. Running on relatively flat tracks such as Monza and the Glen I was able to break my own personal record within one hour of practice. On the tracks which I have run with a lot of hills (the Ring and Zandvoort) I am having a hell of a time with the force-feedback. I LOVE the FF effects, it's just that trying to be smooth with the wheel is next to impossible while the springs are compressing and releasing. I will be going uphill fighting the understeer with a rock-solid steering wheel, and as I crest the hill and the front springs release the wheel looses all resistance. This would lead to a massive oversteer IF I could actually do it without just plain losing control. For the first time I feel as though driving the Ring IRL must have been more sheer terror that racing. It was always tricky but with FF it is downright EVIL. says...

That should work out great for you, I wired my old T2 pedals into the LWFF and it makes a great combo, pretty easy to do. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

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>Agreed, but I also tend to drive more conservatively now I can feel the car >doesn't appreciate my actions ;-) >I am a lot more precise though, so there' s time to be gained "maximizing" >the track. >Not planning on going back either.... gonna try wiring my TM Nascar Pro >pedals to the LWFF though, I can't stand the clutter having 2 wheels around >my desk gives. >Jan.

yeah- ain't it great?! mark (who just got his LWFF this afternoon and is in gpl heaven) p.s. i'm already back to within 1 sec. of my best times at the glen (only place i've done a lot of laps so far. nurburgring was fun and scary with 1 or 2 recon laps)

Agreed, but I also tend to drive more conservatively now I can feel the car doesn't appreciate my actions ;-) I am a lot more precise though, so there' s time to be gained "maximizing" the track. Not planning on going back either.... gonna try wiring my TM Nascar Pro pedals to the LWFF though, I can't stand the clutter having 2 wheels around my desk gives. Jan. ------ ><snip> What I do notice despite being slower is that my car control >has gotten much better, I am not spinning near as much from overcontrol >now that I can feel when the tires are about to lose traction. ><snip> >I'll definitely keep using it "I have seen the light" now and can never >go back to the dark.

Hias, I was thinking of doing the same thing, but got to thinking how does this affect auto-calibration? Will the pedals still be automatically calibrated in Win98 like they seem to be now? Also, did you get the profiler to work with GSB2? Mine works fine off-line and with VROC2, but fails to map the button commands when lauching the game via GSB2. -pierre

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> That should work out great for you, I wired my old T2 pedals into the LWFF > and it makes a great combo, pretty easy to do. > Seeyas on the track. > --John (Joao) Silva > >Agreed, but I also tend to drive more conservatively now I can feel the car > >doesn't appreciate my actions ;-) > >I am a lot more precise though, so there' s time to be gained "maximizing" > >the track. > >Not planning on going back either.... gonna try wiring my TM Nascar Pro > >pedals to the LWFF though, I can't stand the clutter having 2 wheels around > >my desk gives. > >Jan.

John, I certainly agree with you. I purchased a MSFF wheel the next day after I installed the patch. Then after 2 days of struggling with the wheel,I went back to my T2. The driving experience left a lot to be desired to say the least. So,even though my lap times are slower with the MSFF wheel,they are slowly improving,but the main issue is that I'm enjoying gpl so much more. Joel Willstein

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> I am having different results depending on which track I run. > Keep in mind two things: > 1- I stink to begin with > 2- I have not had much practice time with the patch yet. > Running on relatively flat tracks such as Monza and the Glen I was able > to break my own personal record within one hour of practice. > On the tracks which I have run with a lot of hills (the Ring and > Zandvoort) I am having a hell of a time with the force-feedback. > I LOVE the FF effects, it's just that trying to be smooth with the wheel

In my case it's the opposite. Esp. on bumpy and hilly tracks I wiped out all the time not "feeling" what the car is doing. Now I'm staying on the track (almost ;^) all the time and my lap times keep improving. FF helps me alot on flat tracks too, but not as much. l8er ronny -- Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

: Agreed, but I also tend to drive more conservatively now I can feel the car : doesn't appreciate my actions ;-) Indeed - I can now "feel" when I've really unsettled the car and therefore back off and avoid what would previously have been a crash. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

>I was thinking of doing the same thing, but got to thinking how does >this affect auto-calibration? Will the pedals still be automatically >calibrated in Win98 like they seem to be now? You don't have to wire it in. Just plug your old pedals into the gameport. Leave your Logitech pedals plugged in, and attached to the USB or serial port. Both game devices will be active at once, and you can assign any device/axis you want in GPL. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

Hi Pierre, Yep, the T2 pedals work identically to the old Logitech pedals once they are wired in, since the wires that went to the old Logitech pots are now going to the T2 pots the values go through the same analog to digital conversion which in fact takes away all the old jumpy values of the T2 pedals and makes them rocksolid values like the Logitech pedals, the auto-calibration works the same too. As far as the profiler, I don't use it.... I setup the buttons in GPL itself, make sure GPL is configured to use the DirectX Direct Input instead of raw joystick data, and then just configure the controls in GPL by clicking on the control then the button on the Logitech wheel that you want to do that function. I have my Logitech buttons setup to look left + right + clutch + wave hand. I suppose with the profiler you can probably setup so the buttons type out the "Pitout" message or something, but I've never tried to do that, actually I followed the instructions from someone who posted here on RAS on how to disable the Wingman Profiler and save the 8 megs of memory and CPU cycles it uses. Hope that helps. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

Actually that does sound pretty useful, I didn't know about the possibility of the shift function, I'll try and set that up tonight especially for those "pitout" "np" and "sorry" messages. Thanks for passing on the info. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

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>I use the profiler to do just that, especially now that there's a "shift" >function to allow dual use on buttons. >I have these functions mapped: >look left >look right >clutch >"shift" - to allow secondary function of other buttons >say "pitout" >say "sorry" >say "np" >Esc + Enter - gets back to the pit quicker, also useful to go back to > previous menu or quit game. >Shift + R >Having those other functions, especially "esc + enter" and "shift + R" >right on the wheel is worth the 8 meg of ram use for me.

That's good to hear, I guess I'll be doing some soldering tonight. ;) BTW, you should reconsider the profiler. By using the "shift" feature, you can assign 2 commands to the buttons and paddles. -pierre

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> Hi Pierre, > Yep, the T2 pedals work identically to the old Logitech pedals once they > are wired in, since the wires that went to the old Logitech pots are > now going to the T2 pots the values go through the same analog to digital > conversion which in fact takes away all the old jumpy values of the T2 > pedals and makes them rocksolid values like the Logitech pedals, the > auto-calibration works the same too. > As far as the profiler, I don't use it.... I setup the buttons in GPL > itself, make sure GPL is configured to use the DirectX Direct Input instead > of raw joystick data, and then just configure the controls in GPL by > clicking on the control then the button on the Logitech wheel that you want > to do that function. > I have my Logitech buttons setup to look left + right + clutch + wave hand. > I suppose with the profiler you can probably setup so the buttons type > out the "Pitout" message or something, but I've never tried to do that, > actually I followed the instructions from someone who posted here on RAS > on how to disable the Wingman Profiler and save the 8 megs of memory and > CPU cycles it uses. > Hope that helps. > Seeyas on the track. > --John (Joao) Silva > >Hias, > >I was thinking of doing the same thing, but got to thinking how does > >this affect auto-calibration? Will the pedals still be automatically > >calibrated in Win98 like they seem to be now? > >Also, did you get the profiler to work with GSB2? Mine works fine > >off-line and with VROC2, but fails to map the button commands when > >lauching the game via GSB2. > >-pierre

Yeah, I was a bit worried about that "was to fo" bit :-) Anyway, the Sidewinder SW does macros just fine. Not that I use it much, but it's there. /petern On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:02:02 +0100, Richard S Beckett

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>x-no-archive: yes >How can you tell I was up 'till 02:40 playing GPL last nighyt? :-{D] >What I meant was...Does anyone know of a way to do this with the MSFF wheel? >Thanks. >R.

Aehm, decreasing the value makes the FF stronger. Jens BTW, I'm also slower with FF On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 03:51:28 -0400, "Ken Beard" >Probably want to try lowering the force in the core.ini to about 60. >I did that and it's MUCH better for me - my Logitech was fighting me more >than giving me useful input at the default 225 - at 60 I can FEEL what's <snip> --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

Hi Will, just seen your post. How can you record the return key to get e.g. this return (for chat-line) PO return (for sending) Probably I'm to stupid, but hitting the return-key during recording always confirms and ends the recording. Thanks in advance Jens --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address