Official Formula 1 Racing (OF1R) Review at Digital Sportspage

It's finally up.... http://www.digitalsports.com/dsports/pc4/official_formula1/review.html One flame per person, please <G> Cheers, Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Just wondering... You made this review towards gamers or towards simracers ? You should agree that there is nothing in this software to really appeal to simracers, who want some unique and different stuff (and since your posting your URL for your review here, you should know that ;) ). I mean cmon. Track map. Arcade-style AI (slows in-front, goes faster behind you), window-in-window highlight replays, no separate-axis, very-relaxed physics, auto-pilot in the pits, very bad track accuracy on many circuits. There is still some very good stuff in it. The replay where you can pop-up back into the race (maybe not greatly done but it's a neat idea). The brake-bias settings during the race, The sound, views (well I don't like the cheap looking 3d***pit) and the nice telemetry-graphic So, is 88% a rating towards gamers or simracers ? The first is a good indicative (my brother, a pure gamer loved it), but for the second.. hmm not sure :) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

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> It's finally up.... > http://www.digitalsports.com/dsports/pc4/official_formula1/review.html > One flame per person, please <G> > Cheers, > Randy > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Great job of reviewing, as usual. I especially like the parts where you discuss difficulty/realism. By the way Randy, you've mentioned Toca in this review and also in your last major racing article ..and I wondered if you got your hands on Toca2 yet? I remember your critique of the original game, and I'm curious about your impressions of the sequel. Anyway, Hasbro has already reserved some domain names for what appears to be a Crammond authored F1 title, but till then, your review *does* make me curious about OF1R. Nice writing! MR Toca2 Players Guide Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Both. I don't have the luxury of two independent scoring systems. I have to rate each game with both audiences in mind. Otherwise I'd have to absolutely destroy every arcade game in the review, no matter how perfect or wonderful it is! I don't accept your premise. I'm a simracer. I have put in my endless hours setting up and racing NASCAR , GPL, ICR2, GP2, etc -- that doesn't mean I'm incapable of enjoying something like TOCA 2 or OF1R if it plays well and is fun. Some simracers obviously aren't interested in anything that isn't at utmost level of realism. That's fine. I indicate as such in the review. Re-read The Bottom Line page and you'll see I've made it clear that those who want *** sims EXCLUSIVELY should pass on this title. But I also know that a lot of the people who race *** sims also enjoy more lightweight sims from time to time. In my case, I don't have the personal bandwidth to dedicate to BOTH Monaco Grand Prix and GPL, so I choose GPL. When I'm not in the mood for GPL, I've got TOCA 2 and OF1R to kick back with. My review was in no way deceptive, and please do not close your eyes to the fact that enjoying one thing does mean you are incapable of enjoying or finding positive things in something else. Yeah? It's an option. If you don't want it, turn it off. Not always. From time to time I've noticed it. This should happen more in arcade mode, which was designed to do this, but I think a fix is necessary in this regard (and btw, they aren't always slower in front of you in sim mode...quite often I couldn't catch them). The AI inconsistencies should be addressed, but at least they aren't ramming you every other second the way past arcade F1 games did. You don't like it? Turn it off. (a lot of these toggles are available IN the game, which is quite nice). Anyway, that's why it's an option. Sports Car GT doesn't support a separate axis either (the demo had a patch for it, but it sure didn't ship with support for that). However TOCA 2 does. So what are we saying? A sim fan won't like SCGT but will like TOCA 2? I complain about axis inflexibility whenever I encounter it, be it in a 'sim' or an 'arcade' game. The track accuracy is, in my opinion, no worse than in any other F1 game I've played. I use the great book "Grand Prix Circuits" ( a must-buy I think ) and footage to compare games. In this particular game they blew a few elevation changes and missed a few curbs, but all in all I have found the tracks to be comparable in overall accuracy to past works, meaning nobody's done EVERYTHING right yet. As far as auto-pilot in the pits, the same is true for SCGT and many other sims. More sims do autopilot than do not at this point. If this is a big deal to you, so be it. As far as relaxed physics...For most gamers I'm more concerned with whether they are WRONG than whether they are RELAXED. There's nothing inherently wrong with a more forgiving driving model, although obviously it appeals less to diehard people who aren't satisfied unless they need to devote several weeks to getting around a course without spinning. At least it HAS a 3D***pit (and I don't find it spectacular OR cheap) And you have to admit that it is a MAJOR screwup that MGP and GP2 do NOT have brake bias adjustments in the***pit. This is a major component of real driving, compensating for car handling changes during a race. The 88% rating is my measure of the quality of the game. It is a mark of the craftsmanship of the game, its depth of features, its usability and its playability. How it scores on the "realism-o-meter" is something that can't be totally used in the score because the site I write for is not exclusively dedicated to *** simmers, but sports gamers in general. If you want to know whether it would interest you as a *** sim fan, READ THE TEXT. I think I make it quite clear where they have failed to please the *** GPL/MGP-style fan. I'll tell you one thing, though, the ability to push the car *** the exits and put a wheel off without the car suddenly dropping 30 mph in speed is quite welcome. I actually feel like testing the limits of the car and the track in this game. MGP is so punitive about putting a wheel off I rarely challenge it, and the 'digital' throttle in MGP is a killer. From nothing to readline in about 1mm of pedal travel! Ultimately, whether OF1R appeals to a sim fan will vary from person to person based upon what kinds of racers they enjoy and how diverse their tastes run. But I've got no beef with anyone who doesn't want anything to do with a relaxed-physics game like TOCA or OF1R. They can consider my review an indictment of the game from a *** sim fan's perspective (ignore the score and read the TEXT). Had I the liberty of two scoring systems you might have been happier. As it is, you just have to look at the text to see where the game shakes out. I take both audiences into account in the review. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Thanks! As a matter of fact I have and will be posting a review of it in the next week. I've still got more seat time to log before I can put in a final opinion. I know the patch addresses AI issues so I've got to investigate that, too. I did a little multiplayer racing already. Thanks, I hope it saves you a lot of trouble finding out the expensive way whether you want it or not :) Cheers, Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:02:26 GMT, No flame here, Randy. I -really- like OF1R, as politically unpopular as that may be.. :) OF1R is realistic enough to make you -sweat-, and the graphics, replays, framerate, AI and sound are mind-bogglingly immersive, IMO. I will go so far as to say that it is the current best depiction of modern F1. That doesn't mean OF1R is as *** as some of us (including myself) want, but maybe Mr. Crammond will help us out on that one later. I am having a -blast- driving it and I am currently driving it more than GPL.... [gasp]. Another thing that -must- be said. No matter which *** newsgroup you attend, there are the sacred cows. In the flight-sim ng, the sacred cows are LB2, F4, Flanker, F15. Any flightsim product that is released that doesn't do what they do, is immediately flamed into the ground. I have a theory after watching these shenanigans on Usenet/Arpanet for about 10 years now and it is that many people have bought into the 'Highlander Syndrome'. The Highlander Syndrome says that 'There Can Only be One' KING sim/game, whatever. All the rest suck mightily. They must be deleted immediately, other newsgroup users 'warned' about the dangers of enjoying them, and the developers publicly humiliated for daring to create such an abomination. <vbg> I don't buy into the Highlander Syndrome. I enjoy MANY sims and games for what they have to offer. *I* can evaluate each on their merits, thankyouveryverymuch and don't feel the need to eliminate all but one from my hard drive.. :) My all-time favorite racing sims/games? In no particular order: ICR2, GPL, Viper, TOCA2, SCGT, NFS-HS, OF1R, GP2 . (All but GP2 are currently on my HD and never a week goes by that -each- of them is not driven.) Enough babbling. Congrats on a *spot-on* review, and the balls to announce it to this tough crowd.. :) -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

In your GAMEPLAY section, you state the following: "The car doesn't behave as if your right foot is just one slip away from putting down over 800 horsepower on the rear tires, so you don't have to fight a lot of wheelspin-induced looseness, though it does exist." You also state: "Sometimes I think that diehard sim fans evaluate a game's realism based more upon how difficult it is to drive than any real idea of whether the fundamentals of vehicle dynamics are implemented. So, a car that's almost impossible to drive is immediately accepted as realistic, whereas any car that can be driven easily, near real-life times is considered arcade and unrealistic. " Since the graphics on your site include grooved tires, I assume that the game is based on the 1998 F1 season. Many real life F1 drivers have described these cars with words such as nervous, twitchy, and unforgiving. These are "the fundamentals of vehicle dynamics" of modern F1 cars with grooved tires by those who are in a position to know. This clearly implies a certain challenge to control these beasts over those of previous years. In light of this, it seems hard to imagine why a developer would go to the trouble of adding so many other realistic details such as the loss of grip in turbulent air when following another car, while missing something as fundamental as the amount of grip or stability these cars generate. After all, the game not only has a "realistic" mode, the publishers claim it is one of the best implementations to date! What better place to model something as fundamental to modern F1 cars with grooved tires as a lack of grip and unforgivingness than in the "realistic" mode of the game? Its not there. Not even close. It leads to an overall frustration with the game and perhaps a lack of appreciation of some in this group of the very realistic things that the game does. When the fundamentals aren't there as many in this group believe, the fact that other less important aspects have been done better and more realistically than ever before only adds to the frustration and a sense of what could have been. With a more realistic physics model and AI in "realistic" mode, it could have been great. Without it, the effort and the game are a waste. Your review does an excellent job of pointing out the things that the game does well. I commend you for devoting your time to actual gameplay over what was clearly many hours, and for having the courage to state your favorable opinions of a game that so many here have bashed as being worthless. Nevertheless, I disagree with your assesment. For me the gameplay should be weighted above all other categories, and the realism of the physics model should be weighted the highest in the gameplay category. As such, the game misses the mark and for the readers of this group, it is doubtful that it would be a worthwhile purchase.

Uh.. yes it does. I'm using a TM NASCAR Super Sport and Split Axis works fine. Techware Motorsports http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/epson/94/ - James Wohlever

It doesn't ship that way, then...or perhaps you can tell me how you made it recognize it. I was able to use the demo patch for the demo, though. Randy

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>>Sports Car GT doesn't support a separate axis either (the demo had a >>patch for it, but it sure didn't ship with support for that). >Uh.. yes it does. >I'm using a TM NASCAR Super Sport and Split Axis works fine. >Techware Motorsports >http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/epson/94/ >- James Wohlever

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

>Since the graphics on your site include grooved tires, I assume that the >game is based on the 1998 F1 season. Many real life F1 drivers have >described these cars with words such as nervous, twitchy, and unforgiving. F1 cars have always been that way. They are just relatively worse with the changes. Christian Fittipaldi's agent told me the F1 cars were so light and pitch sensitive and that was one of the major problems with them. And do you really think that by learning F1RS, the most popular "***" modern F1 sim, you could actually drive an F1 car?! Christian himself said the reason he couldn't get into racing sims was because no one had invented a way for him to feel the car in the small of his back. Those aren't really fundamentals. The friction circle and the basics of weight transfer are the fundamentals. But the actual performance envelope differs from car to car. Yes, and I made it clear in the review that if you want to be challenged just to get around the circuit then this is not the game for you. For the very simple reason that they are trying to represent "the sport". When someone watches F1 they hear about how difficult it is to overtake because of the push generated by loss of air. They also hear about drivers adjusting brake bias as the fuel load licenses, or how tires go away. These are things which people who watch F1 races can relate to, even if they aren't the driving equivalent of Michael Schumacher. It increases the appreciation of some of the problems current F1 drivers face, even if the overall performance envelope is made more forgiving. They all claim that, unfortunately, and no one has really gotten close, in my opinion. In short, they are all lying to sell their product...at issue is how much each one is lying. After all, how realistic is it when you can't adjust brake bias in the***pit? GP2 didn't even have weather, and yet it is a highly regarded sim! None of the games are. Perhaps. Developers have to pick and choose to try to make the best game that will appeal to the most people and make them the most money. Sad reality, but reality it is. We disagree on what is a "fundamental". We can launch a discussion on that if you like. I'm prepared to defend my position, but we may ultimately disagree on what the fundamentals of a driving physics are. Look we agree that this is not a *** sim, and advertising at such was mischaracterizing the product. Anyone who reads my review should glean that. For the game to be a waste it should mean that hardly anyone will enjoy it. I disagree with this. Thanks. Believe me, it does cross my mind that I could spark a holy war if I do anything but blast anything less than *** sims as garbage. And I have blasted my share of arcade games which are so wrong and feel so crappy to drive that I could barely stand spending enough time with them to write the review. I would have gladly axed this game if I thought it deserved it. But I found myself having fun with it. I could put a wheel off and not stick to the ground like glue like MGP. I was very aware of how I was taking care (or not taking care) of my tires. I was shifting the brake balance to make the care more drivable. I was enjoying making setup changes. I was trying to remember to account for the understeer when following cars through fast sweepers. I also have had to drive the car to the absolute limit (and yes it has one) trying to catch up, and have often spun off trying. But I've had fun, and there's no way I was going to fudge a review so that people in this newsgroup would think of me as a good and faithful *** sim fan! We don't disagree on the weighting. What we do agree is on the issue of how realistic it has to be before its allowed to be 'fun' and whether or not the basic principles of driving a car are followed, and in most areas of the envelope the game does a good job, though it fails in others and isn't as tough as a real F1 car (no sim is). Re-read my "Bottom line". I clearly state who I think would like this game, and that DOES include some sim fans with wider tastes. Cheers, Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:20:38 GMT, SCGT doesn't work with split-axis on either my TSW or my Force RS. It doesn't configure in the keystroke\turn the wheel dialog that SCGT uses.

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>>>Sports Car GT doesn't support a separate axis either (the demo had a >>>patch for it, but it sure didn't ship with support for that). >>Uh.. yes it does. >>I'm using a TM NASCAR Super Sport and Split Axis works fine. >>Techware Motorsports >>http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/epson/94/ >>- James Wohlever >Randy Magruder >http://members.home.com/rmagruder

-- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

Randy, On my Force RS, I have to hold both pedals down as SCGT loads...then it works fine. -- Scott Moore Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com] > It doesn't ship that way, then...or perhaps you can tell me how you > made it recognize it. I was able to use the demo patch for the demo, > though. > Randy > >>Sports Car GT doesn't support a separate axis either (the demo had a > >>patch for it, but it sure didn't ship with support for that). > >Uh.. yes it does. > >I'm using a TM NASCAR Super Sport and Split Axis works fine. > >Techware Motorsports > >http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/epson/94/ > >- James Wohlever > Randy Magruder > [link lost in import]

It's an interesting point of you you got into this review. I praise your able to reach both markets here. <snip good points> Im about sure SCGT has. I had no problem with seperate axis in the full version, it was in the demo that you had to patch it IIRC). But returning to the point, from a racing simulation point of view, I do think in 1999 it is necessary to have a game engine that can model both gas and brake action at the same time. It is a very important part of racing that can't be underestimated. Im even talking to Papyrus here and it's old game engine. Good points, but you really think it's the way to go ? Not caring about pitting on your own, or cheap track-accuracy. I've always said that : "Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try". You do it correctly or you don't do it at all. I agree, as I said there is interesting points in OF1R that you don't find in other racing simulations. Good point. I was just searching for your opinion, and I fully agree on your statement (and the review). Was just trying to go a little further. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I agree... It was a very accurate review. In fact it was a gift to my brother, but I guess when I went to his home I spent more time on it than him 8) Just for the kicks, here is my list : Icr2, GPL, Gp2, N2, N1, MGPRS2, NFS1, Star Wars : Pod Racer, insert about all the 200 other arcade/sim racing games. Icr2 is so underestimated, when you clearly start to understand the physics of the car it's a blast, especially on the street courses. Won't be uninstalled until a future CART sim, if it's ever done :( -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:00:59 GMT, Man, I agree wholeheartedly. I was almost motivated, last week, to do a little writeup here for those that haven't experienced this great sim in a while. I love it. It is VERY realistic and very challenging. With my TSW, it is open-wheel heaven!! Also, with the wide variety of tracks, both road courses and ovals, there is a -lot- to learn. I personally like blasting around Laguna Seca. I also like Mid-Ohio, having raced there a long time ago. It ain't coming off my hard drive either.. :) -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

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> On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:00:59 GMT, > > Icr2 is so underestimated, when > >you clearly start to understand the physics of the car it's a blast, > >especially on the street courses. Won't be uninstalled until a future CART > >sim, if it's ever done :( > Man, I agree wholeheartedly. I was almost motivated, last week, to do > a little writeup here for those that haven't experienced this great sim in > a while. I love it. It is VERY realistic and very challenging. With my > TSW, it is open-wheel heaven!! Also, with the wide variety of tracks, > both road courses and ovals, there is a -lot- to learn. I personally > like blasting around Laguna Seca. I also like Mid-Ohio, having raced > there a long time ago. > It ain't coming off my hard drive either.. :)

I still have a great blast with the ovals. Starting from the back of the field and blast around Michigan is great. The short ovals like Milwaukee and Nazareth are great too. I never really liked the physics on the roadcourses. I felt like the car was driving on ice, and the car alway spun around one extra time just to annoy me when i hit the sand or grass and rejoined the track. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

I agree ICR2 is a kick, but in light of all the flames that OF1R has received, it seems odd that we praise one "car on a stick" physics model and slam another. Randy, I thought your review was spot on. You highlighted all the things I liked about this "sim", and pointed out its weaknesses. I used to be a fanatic for tweaking setups in GP2 and ICR2 but just don't have the time anymore. I like the fact that I can jump into a race in OF1R and just have some fun. I also like that it runs quikly and looks quite nice on my non-accelerated notebook - fun on the road. Stephen :> Icr2 is so underestimated, when :>you clearly start to understand the physics of the car it's a blast, :>especially on the street courses. Won't be uninstalled until a future CART :>sim, if it's ever done :( : Man, I agree wholeheartedly. I was almost motivated, last week, to do : a little writeup here for those that haven't experienced this great sim in : a while. I love it. It is VERY realistic and very challenging. With my : TSW, it is open-wheel heaven!! Also, with the wide variety of tracks,

I like it (the review). Count me as one of the sim people with wider tastes. I do dynamic simulations day in day out as part of my PhD research, and I don't get my knickers in a twist if each and every "sim" doesn't ship with a 145 DOF model running at 1000Hz. GPL impresses me, of course, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy something supposedly "lightweight" like OF1R. It's a bit inconsistent in places, but fun. Remember, everything is, by definition, a "sim". Even Mario Karts is simulating kart racing; the question is only how faithfully they simulate it. Stephen : It's finally up.... : http://www.digitalsports.com/dsports/pc4/official_formula1/review.html : One flame per person, please <G> : Cheers, : Randy : Randy Magruder : http://members.home.com/rmagruder

A Double Ditto Again! Plus on all the other comments here!..........Cheers Thom_j.

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> > On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:00:59 GMT, > > > Icr2 is so underestimated, when > > >you clearly start to understand the physics of the car it's a blast, > > >especially on the street courses. Won't be uninstalled until a future

CART > > >sim, if it's ever done :( > > Man, I agree wholeheartedly. I was almost motivated, last week, to do > > a little writeup here for those that haven't experienced this great sim in

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> > a while. I love it. It is VERY realistic and very challenging. With my > > TSW, it is open-wheel heaven!! Also, with the wide variety of tracks, > > both road courses and ovals, there is a -lot- to learn. I personally > > like blasting around Laguna Seca. I also like Mid-Ohio, having raced > > there a long time ago. > > It ain't coming off my hard drive either.. :) > I still have a great blast with the ovals. Starting from the back of the

field > and blast around Michigan is great. The short ovals like Milwaukee and Nazareth > are great too. I never really liked the physics on the roadcourses. I felt like > the car was driving on ice, and the car alway spun around one extra time just > to annoy me when i hit the sand or grass and rejoined the track. <snipped>

On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:32:00 -0700, "Frank Koenig" >In light of this, it seems hard to imagine why a developer would go to the >trouble of adding so many other realistic details such as the loss of grip >in turbulent air when following another car, while missing something as >fundamental as the amount of grip or stability these cars generate. Simply the balance of gameplay. Modelling loss of front-end downforce makes the racing more realistic without necessarily making the car more difficult to drive, since it only occurs when closely following another car and will cause the front of the car to "wash out" through the turn - easy to catch by backing out of the throttle. Modelling the twitchiness of the cars has a BIG effect on gameplay, making the car difficult to drive all round the track, and worsening in conjunction with the other effects like loss of downforce etc. "For the readers of this group" - this group titled rec.autos.SIMULATORS. As long as the game is viewed considering the market as a whole, the thoughts of this group amount to only a very minor hill of beans,l and even then some of those beans capable of appreciating an arcade title on it's own merits will still enjoy it. I didn't like OF1R too much at all, thinking it neither fish nor fowl and falling into an unsatisfactory middle ground. Menus and setup adjustments are annoying, combining the worst parts of both sim and arcade in a clumsy manner. Cheers! John

Let's not kid ourselves, the reason Christian couldn't get into sims is because he has a choice - he can go and race the real thing. If that was not an option to him I'm sure he'd get over the lack of feeling as we all do in order to indulge our love of racing. The friction circle in particular is ultimately dependent upon the *** on the road and the aerodynamics holding it there. Grooved tyres and F1 aero have a heavy impact (as of course they were intended to). Well put, although I do think that the "simulation" mode could have been more "sim like". At present the "sim" mode is like NFS and the arcade mode like Outrun. Weather is something which may or may not happen, just as brake-bias adjustments may or may not be utilised. Driving the car is what happends 100% of the time you are in the***pit, and if that is wrong the other aspects matter not a bit. Yes, but some are much closer than others. That is the point of the comment above, but only really applicable to sims. If we take it as read that OF1R is not a sim then it's pretty irrelevant. It need only satisfy sufficiently to be fun and make money. Cheers! John

Greetings, John... >Let's not kid ourselves, the reason Christian couldn't get into sims >is because he has a choice - he can go and race the real thing. If >that was not an option to him I'm sure he'd get over the lack of >feeling as we all do in order to indulge our love of racing. This fails to explain why other real life drivers DO get into racing sims. I have my own theory about Christian's inability to relate to racing sims, but it's a long story and I'll only tell it if pressed :) Yes. But the BASICS of car control don't change. The envelope does. I'd argue it's more fun (and more realistic) than either NFS or Outrun, but is less realistic than GPL or MGP (even though I find MGP an annoyance to drive much of the time). I'd be curious to know if you could find a case where brake bias was NOT adjusted as the tires wear and the fuel burns off, changing the car's balance. My opinion on this is well known. "sim" is not an on/off switch, its a scale. OF1R may not be a highly accurate sim, but it is a sim nonetheless, as is TOCA and GPL. The elevation of this word to the status of a religion in this newsgroup is one of the things I enjoy least here. People can decide whether the sim is realistic enough for their tastes, but there is a physical model in these games which attempts to mimic real life car behavior. That makes it a sim. At issue is, how CLOSE is the sim to real life. We do not necessarily disagree about how far the envelope is from real life in this game, but to create a new holy meaning for the word "sim" is something I'm not prepared to do, because by the religious definition of it, you'd dismiss pretty much everything out there for one failing or another. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Thanks! You are obviously one of the people I figured might have more diverse tastes like myself. :) Randy

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>I like it (the review). Count me as one of the sim people with wider >tastes. I do dynamic simulations day in day out as part of my PhD >research, and I don't get my knickers in a twist if each and every "sim" >doesn't ship with a 145 DOF model running at 1000Hz. GPL impresses me, of >course, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy something supposedly >"lightweight" like OF1R. It's a bit inconsistent in places, but fun. >Remember, everything is, by definition, a "sim". Even Mario Karts is >simulating kart racing; the question is only how faithfully they simulate >it. >Stephen >: It's finally up.... >: http://www.digitalsports.com/dsports/pc4/official_formula1/review.html >: One flame per person, please <G> >: Cheers, >: Randy >: Randy Magruder >: http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

It wasn't intended to, Christian was the issue. You've lost me here - how does this relate to the original point? :-) The sim mode is, to my mind, more or less on a par with NFS - not in itself any bad thing, just that the expectation of the word sim is defined by what else is on the market - OF1R falls well short in that regard. Please don't construe that as being a bad thing in and of itself, it's just putting itself in a position from where it's bound to received less well than it should be. The point is whether you would adjust the brake bias as often as you adjust your throttle, brake and wheel positions - I'd e equally curious to know if you came across such a situation. Nowhere did I say it was, indeed the phrase "some are much close than others" in itself describes a "shades of grey" approach. It's quite strange to take the time to construct sentences particularly so it can be seen that the "godlike sim, black and white" approach is precisely NOT what I was talking about, then to be answered as though it was. Cheers! John

Thanks! You are obviously one of the people I figured might have more diverse tastes like myself. :) Randy >I like it (the review). Count me as one of the sim people with wider >tastes. I do dynamic simulations day in day out as part of my PhD >research, and I don't get my knickers in a twist if each and every "sim" >doesn't ship with a 145 DOF model running at 1000Hz. GPL impresses me, of >course, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy something supposedly >"lightweight" like OF1R. It's a bit inconsistent in places, but fun. I agree with your many of your views on sim racing also. I liked your review of OF1R and wanted to briefly comment on it. IMO, OF1R and most of the other auto sims are sitting at about the 8 spot on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being a sim which a Michael Schumacher will someday use to practice with. I just don't see such a huge difference between many of the current titles and enjoy a number of them. Regarding your article from last week. I'm not so sure that companies are turning away from sims. You referred to MGPRS2 as an example. Ubi Soft actually made MGPRS2 significantly harder than F1RS by changing the grip levels. Many fans of F1RS complained loudly about how much harder MGPRS2 was when it was released. The developers of Rally Championship seem to have only one goal and that is to simulate reality in every way (but will still smartly include an arcade mode). Nascar 2000 (or whatever the one with the GPL engine is now called) is delayed, but still on it's way eventually. I don't believe for a second GP3 will be anything but a pure sim. GP500 and the Motorsims titles look to be pure sims as well. The future of auto sims looks bright to me. I agree TOTALLY agree with your opinions about r.a.s. and the treatment of some sims by it's readers. *BTW, you can adjust the brake balance and rollbar stiffness during a race in MGPRS2 by hitting F12 and then the insert/delete and home/end keys. David G Fisher

Mine worked first try, with no special settings at all. . .

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> It doesn't ship that way, then...or perhaps you can tell me how you > made it recognize it. I was able to use the demo patch for the demo, > though. > Randy > >>Sports Car GT doesn't support a separate axis either (the demo had a > >>patch for it, but it sure didn't ship with support for that). > >Uh.. yes it does. > >I'm using a TM NASCAR Super Sport and Split Axis works fine. > >Techware Motorsports > >http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/epson/94/ > >- James Wohlever > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

John, We've gone at it many times in the past few years, and here we've done it again. Thanks for another good sparring round <G> Cheers, Randy

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>>This fails to explain why other real life drivers DO get into racing >>sims. >It wasn't intended to, Christian was the issue. >>>The friction circle in particular is ultimately dependent upon the >>>*** on the road and the aerodynamics holding it there. Grooved >>>tyres and F1 aero have a heavy impact (as of course they were intended >>>to). >>Yes. But the BASICS of car control don't change. The envelope does. >You've lost me here - how does this relate to the original point? :-) >>I'd argue it's more fun (and more realistic) than either NFS or >>Outrun, but is less realistic than GPL or MGP (even though I find MGP >>an annoyance to drive much of the time). >The sim mode is, to my mind, more or less on a par with NFS - not in >itself any bad thing, just that the expectation of the word sim is >defined by what else is on the market - OF1R falls well short in that >regard. Please don't construe that as being a bad thing in and of >itself, it's just putting itself in a position from where it's bound >to received less well than it should be. >>I'd be curious to know if you could find a case where brake bias was >>NOT adjusted as the tires wear and the fuel burns off, changing the >>car's balance. >The point is whether you would adjust the brake bias as often as you >adjust your throttle, brake and wheel positions - I'd e equally >curious to know if you came across such a situation. >>My opinion on this is well known. "sim" is not an on/off switch, its >>a scale. >Nowhere did I say it was, indeed the phrase "some are much close than >others" in itself describes a "shades of grey" approach. It's quite >strange to take the time to construct sentences particularly so it can >be seen that the "godlike sim, black and white" approach is precisely >NOT what I was talking about, then to be answered as though it was. >Cheers! >John

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

I agree with you, unfortunately the "future" you say is not anywhere soon, IMHO. It's still half a year away without any product pushed back. GP3, don't even think about 1999 and probably not 2000, they are starting to search for programmers for it. The real Nascar sim, not until the end of 2000. Gp500 year 2000. Motorsims half a year,same goes for Rally Championship. The last two are the lucky two titles (AMA Superbike and Rally Championship), who will open in a market that is not congested by any other racing simulator, compared to last year in Christmas, you had at least 5-6competitors in the shelves. Im excluding N3 on purpose. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

this sentence below alone summarizes why i'm thinking about buying this game. it almost sounds like what nasrev could have been- a quick pick-up race when you have an hour (instead of GPL where that just covers qualifying). i wish the "uneven AI" thing you described wasn't there, though- any chance of this being addressed by eidos or a 3rd party? (probably not the latter). good job with the review. i'd almost dismissed this game 'cause i couldn't find the***pit view in the demo- but obviously there is one. thanks, mark limited '*** sim' practice hours into Grand Prix Legends, I'm going to keep Official Formula 1 in my library and allow it to represent my F1 interests. It won't demand too much of my time, it often plays well (depending upon the AI at a particular track), and it looks great.

On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:04:01 -0400, [snip] There are more views than you have time to check out.. :) Also, it is fun for exactly the reasons you state, in my opinion. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

That pretty much sums up OF1R - it is really good for when you have a spare hour or so to kill, although lacking longer term challenge. It's nice to have a decent version of Suzuka too. For me it's a bit like EA SBK - I don't play it much but I keep it on my hard disk for whenever I get bored working and want to take a 30mins break :-) OF1R has more views than you can shake a stick at, in fact I think there's three or four "cockpit views" with differing angles of view. Quite good in that regard. Cheers! John

I dont know. The best thing to do is go to the Eidos or Lankhor web sites and ask them for the patch. If enough people ask, we might get one!

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>this sentence below alone summarizes why i'm thinking about buying this >game. it almost sounds like what nasrev could have been- a quick pick-up >race when you have an hour (instead of GPL where that just covers >qualifying). i wish the "uneven AI" thing you described wasn't there, >though- any chance of this being addressed by eidos or a 3rd party? >(probably not the latter). >good job with the review. i'd almost dismissed this game 'cause i couldn't >find the***pit view in the demo- but obviously there is one. >thanks, >mark >>>Because I'm often constrained for time and prefer to put my already >limited '*** sim' practice hours into Grand Prix Legends, I'm going to >keep Official Formula 1 in my library and allow it to represent my F1 >interests. It won't demand too much of my time, it often plays well >(depending upon the AI at a particular track), and it looks great.

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

[been away a couple of days...] Excellent thread guys! Even when it seemed on the brink of becomming the usual flame-fest or jihad, you all managed to bring it back safely. My little addition: I have only played the demo. I would consider it almost worth buying for the novel helicopter view. Finally, a chance to see these circuits in near-toto. Watching this year's British GP, I was very impressed by their similar use of a copter. Gives so new a perspective to better appreciate the race. That and the in-car views from Damon's car made it interesting for me (okay, there's the Schumi saga...). Sorry, I got off topic. Alas, if they don't add dual axis, I'm afraid it won't be for me. Not because I'm a dual-axis zealot. But that my CH Pro Pedals do not adequately support single-axis mode (rudder motion). As to one posters comments on [paraphrased] "they are all, by definition, sims": like him, I do dynamic simulation for a living. I agree with his view. This can get religious, so I won't go too far with it here. But I think it's all shades of gray. Can't say exactly where OF1R rates on the scale from my limited demo experience. As to the "Highlander Syndrome", I again concur. Some games here take on a near-scary holiness. Though shalt not defame, though shalt not consider any others worthy. Ppphht. On MGPRS2: I have it and its predecessor F1RS. I too find it sometimes terribly frustrating. I'm quite willing to admit that if the fine setups of Steve [Sherris?] didn't exist, I wouldn't be playing it. I don't always have the time to work on setups. The canned spins and near-0 grip on cold tires frustrates. I'm not convinced it is realistic. One of my colleagues, an expert, professional driver, who's company supported the sim with some data, thought the driving model disappointing (FWIW, and sorry for the horrid grammar). Last, more kudos to Randy for his thoroughness and dedication to our hobby.

What gets me is that the box says DIRECT INPUT controller supported. Now I calibrated my controller just fine in windows, so it is NOT direct input, like GPL. My split axis works fine in GPL. I have to use one of the shifter buttons on my wheel for the gas! hehe, kinda sucks but oh well. -- Sean Higgins "HigPup" http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/hsts2/ HSTS, Powered by ATI Rage 128 http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/ http://www.colormation.com Colormation (sponsor of H.O. Motorsports) http://www.atitech.ca ATI Technologies it won't be for me. Not because

> I agree with you, unfortunately the "future" you say is not anywhere soon, > IMHO. It's still half a year away without any product pushed back. GP3, > don't even think about 1999 and probably not 2000, they are starting to > search for programmers for it. The real Nascar sim, not until the end of > 2000. Gp500 year 2000. Motorsims half a year,same goes for Rally > Championship. You're right. It's going to seem even longer. :-( David G Fisher

>What gets me is that the box says DIRECT INPUT controller supported. Now I >calibrated my controller just fine in windows, so it is NOT direct input, >like GPL. My split axis works fine in GPL. I have to use one of the >shifter buttons on my wheel for the gas! hehe, kinda sucks but oh well. Is this normal for OF1, or is Sean just having some setup problems? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

<snip> You can assign your controls (as in other sims) in the control sub-menu, in the manual on P66. I had to change mine for my MSFF, but just for the gear selection, defaults to button 1 and 2, whereas the MSFF gear is 7 & 8. Seb ICQ 17246444

On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 01:43:43 -0400, "David G Fisher" >> 2000. Gp500 year 2000. Motorsims half a year,same goes for Rally >> Championship. >You're right. It's going to seem even longer. :-( But every time I switch my P.C. on my TNT2 card whispers "Rally Championship" - I can't wait half a year! I'm getting married in two weeks, and since as we all know that means the end of life as men know it I'll need something else to occupy me :-) Cheers! John

I can get all 4 buttons to work, but the split axis for gas and brake only recognizes the brake. -- Sean Higgins "HigPup" http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/hsts2/ HSTS, Powered by ATI Rage 128 http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/ http://www.colormation.com Colormation (sponsor of H.O. Motorsports) http://www.atitech.ca ATI Technologies ><snip> >> Is this normal for OF1, or is Sean just having some setup problems? >You can assign your controls (as in other sims) in the control sub-menu, in >the manual on P66. I had to change mine for my MSFF, but just for the gear >selection, defaults to button 1 and 2, whereas the MSFF gear is 7 & 8. >Seb >ICQ 17246444

On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 05:01:56 GMT, It doesn't support split-axis on any wheel/pedals.. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

Ya I noticed it doesn't support split axis' , but DIRECT INPUT it is NOT. -- Sean Higgins "HigPup" http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/hsts2/ HSTS, Powered by ATI Rage 128 http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/ http://www.colormation.com Colormation (sponsor of H.O. Motorsports) http://www.atitech.ca ATI Technologies >On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 05:01:56 GMT, split-axis on any wheel/pedals..

On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:42:31 GMT, O.K. Why do you feel that way? FYI, lots of Win98 games/sims use direct input, but only a -very- few support split-axis. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

LOL. Maybe my definition of Direct Input is not accurate. I assume Direct input to mean my wheel is calibrated in windows and then the game picks it up from windows. I have it calibrated in windows as a 3 axis 4 button controller. To me this suggests, LIMITED Direct Input. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I see it. :) -- Sean Higgins "HigPup" http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/hsts2/ HSTS, Powered by ATI Rage 128 http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/ http://www.colormation.com Colormation (sponsor of H.O. Motorsports) http://www.atitech.ca ATI Technologies >On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:42:31 GMT, >>Ya I noticed it doesn't support split axis' , >O.K. >>but DIRECT INPUT it is NOT. >Why do you feel that way? FYI, lots of Win98 games/sims >use direct input, but only a -very- few support split-axis. >-- >* rrevved at mindspring dot com >* unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. >* http://www.cabal.net >* http://www.sputum.com

Great review Randy. Is the DSP all you or are you just a contributor. Either way, it's in my links now. I have to agree that it's pretty fun to play even though I would prefer a more detailed driving experience. The curbs lack a little for me. But I also think the game has some great features. Such as the text pop-ups that accompany F+Key selections. I hate having to look to see if the screen res just got better or trying to 'feel' if the controller got tighter while I'm on the track. The text is a really nice feature. I also like the insta-load setups and the spins seem to get away like real spins do. Canned or not, it feels real while it's happening. Scares me every time. :-) -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico USA

>Great review Randy. Is the DSP all you or are you just a contributor. Either >way, it's in my links now. I'm glad you enjoyed the review. I'm just one of several contributing reviewers. I generally do the racing sims and football sims on the various platforms. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Only two and a half weeks of freedom left for me too John !!! -- Ian Parker UKGPL League [link lost in import] -- > On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 01:43:43 -0400, "David G Fisher" > >> 2000. Gp500 year 2000. Motorsims half a year,same goes for Rally > >> Championship. > >You're right. It's going to seem even longer. :-( > But every time I switch my P.C. on my TNT2 card whispers "Rally > Championship" - I can't wait half a year! I'm getting married in two > weeks, and since as we all know that means the end of life as men know > it I'll need something else to occupy me :-) > Cheers! > John

On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:22:31 +0100, "Ian Parker" >Only two and a half weeks of freedom left for me too John !!! I'm into my last week now! Mind you, this time next week I'll be married, but also up in the highlands at a huge party, lots of friends around, a Caol Ila in my hand and a couple of weeks off work - it's not all bad! :-) Cheers! John

Since your TNT card whispers "Rally Championship" to you, maybe you could train her to become your co-pilot ? ;-D Happy wedding John btw! -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."