GPL force feedback

hmm..... what wheel do you have? doesn't sound like a good one, it is great on mine :)

Well, if the wheel pulls to the right, you're driving a sharp left-bend corner. If the wheel pulls to the left, you're driving a sharp right-bend corner. And if the wheel shakes wildly, you better get on the road back again... I think the ff is fantastic! Andre On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:47:18 +0800, "Roger Lai" >Hey guys, >Got the patch, played with the force feedback. What do the different forces >actually mean? I can't figure out what each wheel shake means what. >Roger

Except on those $1000 ECCI wheels. Or even $300 TSW/TSW2 wheels. ;)

There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In fact the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade to a newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way. You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When you do you'll realize what you've been missing:) Scottie >> I think the ff is fantastic! >> Andre >Except on those $1000 ECCI wheels. Or even $300 TSW/TSW2 wheels. ;)

>You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When you do >you'll realize what you've been missing:) I'm sure the ECCI wheels are great, but if I were you I'd try to give 1.1 a shot on a asystem with a FF wheel. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

That was kind of a cheap shot at TSW and ECCI owners. Y'all own great equipment. But, man oh man, you ought to feel the force once. You'll be all over ECCI to get them to implement. It's sensational. Kurt

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>There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In fact >the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade to a >newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way. >You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When you do >you'll realize what you've been missing:) >Scottie >>> I think the ff is fantastic! >>> Andre >>Except on those $1000 ECCI wheels. Or even $300 TSW/TSW2 wheels. ;)

I don't think the other wheels are "crap" as you put it. The others are simply not built as well as the ECCI and TSW wheels. BTW, my first wheel was a TM Nascar Pro, good wheel, just not as good as ECCI. Sorry if that upsets you, the facts are the facts. Scottie

Go ahead and keep kidding yourself that anything but a ECCI/TSW is "crap", aka a Yugo.

Hmmm. Just to play the devil's advocate (since the devil is apparently too cold to do it himself), which would give you a better driving experience; a fully operational Yugo (whatever that may be :-), or a Ferrari that has no engine? Randy

Ah, at last something that ECCI and TSW owners can agree on! <G> I have access to a Saitek R4 Force wheel, but I find myself seldom using it -- my TSW/TSW2 wheels are far more precise, and I can turn in consistently better lap times (and better race times, too). The FF effects are neat, and in Viper Racing, they do add an immersive quality, but there are too many other sensations missing for FF to be anything more than a neat gimmick, as far as I'm concerned. Adding in the Aura Interactor helps fill in some of the blanks left by a FF wheel, but even with that added in, I'm still not ready to trade in my TSW. All in all, I really enjoy sims more with my TSW wheels than I do with a FF wheel. I don't have access to the Saitek wheel today (it's out on loan to a friend -- lucky guy!), so the jury is out on GPL and FF for me, but I imagine I'll think it's neat up to a point, and slowly drift back to using the TSW2 full-time (my TSW2 has a nicer wheel than my TSW <G>). -- JB On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:06:51 -0500, "Scottie Smith"

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>There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In fact >the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade to a >newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way. >You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When you do >you'll realize what you've been missing:) >Scottie >>> I think the ff is fantastic! >>> Andre >>Except on those $1000 ECCI wheels. Or even $300 TSW/TSW2 wheels. ;)

And a low blow in return. :) Music to my ears.

On Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:30:48 GMT, "Randy Cassidy" >Hmmm. Just to play the devil's advocate (since the devil is apparently >too cold to do it himself), which would give you a better driving >experience; a fully operational Yugo (whatever that may be :-), or a >Ferrari that has no engine? >Randy Pop quiz: You meet a hot young lady in a bar and she wants you to come back to her place -- which line would get you farther: A) "I can drive if you'd like -- let me bring my Yugo around front." or: B) "Can you drive? My Ferrari's in the shop." ;-) -- JB

Is this a loaded question or what? Either way I answer I hang myself, so I give<waving white flag>. Man, you're good:) I'm sure that you guys did an excellent job with the FF in GPL. Papy is the best. My point is that the FF wheels on the market today are no where no the quality of a ECCI wheel. Yes, I would like to have a FF wheel but I'm not willing to trade quality for one feature. Now, may I ask you a question? Would you trade a Gremlin for a Ferrari just because the Gremlin had a radio and the Ferrari didn't? Same concept. In the question you presented to me my choice was a working car or a non working car and what we're really talking about here is a feature(i.e.. my ECCI works but does lack a feature). Scottie devil is apparently

Oops, lol. Editor is out too lunch:) Now, may I ask you a question? Would you trade a Ferrari for a Gremlin just because the Gremlin had a radio and the Ferrari didn't? Same concept. In the question you presented to me my choice was a working car or a non working car and what we're really talking about here is a feature(i.e.. my ECCI works but does lack a feature). Scottie

Neither, she'll laugh at both of them...first because you have a Yugo, second because she won't believe your line of "My Ferrari's in the shop".

Not really. The Ferrari works just fine, its engine just doesn't....so you'll have to Flintstone it everywhere. Yugo works just fine too, and its engine provides some shake rattle and roll for free even.

Randy, I think he has ya there, but paying the devils advocate would she believe you if you told her the Ferrari is in the shop. Dave

>I don't have access to the Saitek wheel today (it's out on loan to a >friend -- lucky guy!), so the jury is out on GPL and FF for me, but I >imagine I'll think it's neat up to a point, and slowly drift back to >using the TSW2 full-time (my TSW2 has a nicer wheel than my TSW <G>). That was my experience exactly - right down to the TSW v's TSW2 :-) Cheers! John

Then where did the Yugo comment come from? :) I don't think anyone denies that one. Depends on what you are after.

>Oops, lol. Editor is out too lunch:) >Now, may I ask you a question? Would you trade a Ferrari for a Gremlin just >because the Gremlin had a radio and the Ferrari didn't? Same concept. In the >question you presented to me my choice was a working car or a non working This assumes my Logitech doesn't work. It does. You seem a little pissed that you may have blown huge bucks on your ECCI while the FF wheels are *MUCH* cheaper and have a decent FF effect. I think you may find that if GPL does FF properly you will get *MUCH* more "feeling" from the FF than you will with your awesome ECCI. And for the record I have nothing against ECCI wheels or TSW (in fact I do like Travis). I do have something ECCI owners that try to argue them selves into minimuzing a good FF wheel. In that respect you are full of shit. Time for me to go buy GPL :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>I don't think the other wheels are "crap" as you put it. The others are >simply not built as well as the ECCI and TSW wheels. Perhaps. However since my wheel hasn't come apart at the seams it is currently in as good of shape as your ECCI. Oh yeah, plus it has FF. So I imagine I can feel the inertia and lack of traction and other things which now make setups meaningful. You will not, but your is far superior because it is an ECCI!!!!!!! Upset? Nope, just fascinated with people trying to bullshit everyone. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:06:51 -0500, I have a TSW and an ACT LABS FORCE RS. While the jury is still out, I am liking GPL 1.1 (much) more on the FORCE RS. I never thought I would say that, but there it is... -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:10:01 -0500, You betcha... :) -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

Look Greg, I'm not trying to minimize anything. I'm sure whatever wheel you choose to use suits your needs and is a good wheel. Now you're trying to tell me that I'm pissed because I bought the best wheel I could... yeah right. I admitted that I would like to have FF, however, I'm not willing to trade my ECCI to get it. For the record, those of you who don't use ECCI or TSW wheels are just as fast(if not faster) to slam us at any chance for owning an ECCI wheel. Example: the post that started this part of this thread and your post Greg. I didn't start this, remember? I was merely returning a shot that was fired at ECCI and TSW owners. For no reason what-so-ever this guy comes out of no where and takes a shot at ECCI and TSW owners because their wheels don't have FF(why? I ask). What I did is the same thing you're doing with your post; defending the wheel that I chose to purchase. Scottie

>Look Greg, I'm not trying to minimize anything. I'm sure whatever wheel you >choose to use suits your needs and is a good wheel. Now you're trying to >tell me that I'm pissed because I bought the best wheel I could... yeah >right. I admitted that I would like to have FF, however, I'm not willing to >trade my ECCI to get it. Actually I think you said "My point is that the FF wheels on the market today are no where no the quality of a ECCI wheel." IMHO this is total BS. Quality? As far as surviving a nuclear blast? Yeah probably. Quality as far as usability in a PC racing auto simulator? I don't think so. Are you actually for real with that? I have never found any reason to slam or flame a ECCI owner because he/she was a ECCI owner. Until now. You are totally out there! Wow. I guess I thought you started it by your reply to Randy where you say "My point is that the FF wheels on the market today are no where no the quality of a ECCI wheel." We all bow to your superior wheel. Ohhhhh.... Get the hell out of here with that. One guy did post about the ECCI costing $1000 and it didn't have FF. I didn't think it was a big deal, but I suppose if I paid $1000 for a wheel and it didn't have FF I would be a little sensitive about it. Especially when kick ass FF wheels are available for $200. Yep I guess I would be upset too. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

This was a dumb ass thread and both of us deserve a kick in the ass for keeping it going. My apologies if I offended you or your wheel. Scottie

You forgot this one: C) I have GPL 1.1 patch, shall we use my Mini Morris?

Why does anyone need to "slam" anyone? Especially over what freaking wheel you guys own.

I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine, Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500.

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> > There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In > fact > > the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade > to a > > newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way. > > You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When > you do > > you'll realize what you've been missing:) > Hmmm. Just to play the devil's advocate (since the devil is apparently > too cold to do it himself), which would give you a better driving > experience; a fully operational Yugo (whatever that may be :-), or a > Ferrari that has no engine? > Randy

I must say that I agree with your stance. I have what I consider to be amongst the best of the conventional (no FF) wheel/pedal systems, the "Advantage 1". The accuracy and stability of the pots after almost 12 month's continuous usage (average 3 hours per day) is exceptional. Oh...I'll eventually get FF, to be sure. But right now I am not prepared to risk exchanging a high-quality controller system for what could be an inferior type simply to gain a feature. When the manufacturers of the top-notch steering systems introduce FF I'll have a look. > Is this a loaded question or what? Either way I answer I hang myself, so I > give<waving white flag>. Man, you're good:) > I'm sure that you guys did an excellent job with the FF in GPL. Papy is the > best. My point is that the FF wheels on the market today are no where no the > quality of a ECCI wheel. Yes, I would like to have a FF wheel but I'm not > willing to trade quality for one feature. > Now, may I ask you a question? Would you trade a Gremlin for a Ferrari just > because the Gremlin had a radio and the Ferrari didn't? Same concept. In the > question you presented to me my choice was a working car or a non working > car and what we're really talking about here is a feature(i.e.. my ECCI > works but does lack a feature). > Scottie the > devil is apparently > > too cold to do it himself), which would give you a better driving > > experience; a fully operational Yugo (whatever that may be :-), or a > > Ferrari that has no engine? > > Randy

Yugo in these waters Bruce :-) Mark

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> I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine, > Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500. > > > There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In > > fact > > > the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade > > to a > > > newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way. > > > You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When > > you do > > > you'll realize what you've been missing:) > > Hmmm. Just to play the devil's advocate (since the devil is apparently > > too cold to do it himself), which would give you a better driving > > experience; a fully operational Yugo (whatever that may be :-), or a > > Ferrari that has no engine? > > Randy

>I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine, >Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500. Not in the US. It was Yugo. They had lots of Fiat parts, and I think the engine was something like 1.2 liters. Probably the worst car ever sold in the states, spawning all kinds of goofy jokes... How do you double the value of a Yugo? Fill the gas tank How do make a Yugo go 0-60 in 5 seconds? Drive it off a cliff Why do Yugo's come with heated bumpers? To keep your hands warm while you're pushing it. My dad's car-stupid neighbor bought one. This was when they were new, I guess around 86. I can remember hearing him try to start it on cold mornings. He'd just let it crank forever. I don't know if it was something he was doing or what, but it would always take about 5 minutes of cranking to start. Eventually, he started to thrash the shit out of the thing since he hated it so much. One rainy morning, he was giving it the usual thrashing, and lost control of it on a jughandle, and went off into a drainage basin. He came home with the car covered with mud and weeds, and a visible outward dent in the roof -made by his head when he flew out of the seat. When he told me about it, he said he was in a lot of pain, but when he pointed to the dent we both started laughing hysterically. It was like something out of a cartoon. It sat there a few days, covered with mud and weeds until the wrecker that left it came back to take it to it's final resting place. The guy has since moved out of my dads neighborhood, but I bet he had a big grin on his face when the Yugo factory was bombed into a pile of rubble a couple months ago. -- http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

With all due respect John! this Force Feedback will literally blow you away, if you drift back to a non FF wheel, i would be greatly suprised. Randy Cassidy and the team have set new standards, that had me trying every corner on every circuit till 4am this morning........ I kept giggling out loud, which was a bit disconcerting for my wife, as I was wearing headphones and she was trying to sleep in the next room Please please, don't get involved in any arguments about "Who's wheel is better" or "Force feedback is just a feature" debates, Go immediatly and take that wheel back from your friend, even though you may have to fight him if he has a patched version of GPL <g> but wrestle it from his sweaty palms and then rush home, plug it in, and...........well let me know..... Regards Davey_Willo

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> Ah, at last something that ECCI and TSW owners can agree on! <G> > I have access to a Saitek R4 Force wheel, but I find myself seldom > using it -- my TSW/TSW2 wheels are far more precise, and I can turn in > consistently better lap times (and better race times, too). The FF > effects are neat, and in Viper Racing, they do add an immersive > quality, but there are too many other sensations missing for FF to be > anything more than a neat gimmick, as far as I'm concerned. Adding in > the Aura Interactor helps fill in some of the blanks left by a FF > wheel, but even with that added in, I'm still not ready to trade in my > TSW. All in all, I really enjoy sims more with my TSW wheels than I > do with a FF wheel. > I don't have access to the Saitek wheel today (it's out on loan to a > friend -- lucky guy!), so the jury is out on GPL and FF for me, but I > imagine I'll think it's neat up to a point, and slowly drift back to > using the TSW2 full-time (my TSW2 has a nicer wheel than my TSW <G>). > -- JB > On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:06:51 -0500, "Scottie Smith" > >There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In fact > >the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade to a > >newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way. > >You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When you

do

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> >you'll realize what you've been missing:) > >Scottie > >>> I think the ff is fantastic! > >>> Andre > >>Except on those $1000 ECCI wheels. Or even $300 TSW/TSW2 wheels. ;)

On 9 Jul 1999 21:17:26 GMT, "DAVID " >Randy, I think he has ya there, but paying the devils advocate would she >believe you if you told her the Ferrari is in the shop. The "Ferrari in the shop" line might cause disbelieve, but there's always the chance -- albeit slim -- that she might believe it. The Yugo, on the other hand, will get you sent packing promptly. So, what's all this got to do with GPL and FF, anyway? <G> ;-) -- JB

Sorry Bruce -- it IS spelled "Yugo"; it was a small econo car manufactured in Yugoslavia in the mid-to-late '80s and sold in the US. Horrid car. I believe you are thinking of the Fiat Uno, perhaps (I could be wrong on the Uno, being an American and not all that well-versed in cars not sold on these shores). -- JB On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:29:58 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"

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>I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine, >Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500. >> > There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In >> fact >> > the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade >> to a >> > newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way. >> > You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When >> you do >> > you'll realize what you've been missing:) >> Hmmm. Just to play the devil's advocate (since the devil is apparently >> too cold to do it himself), which would give you a better driving >> experience; a fully operational Yugo (whatever that may be :-), or a >> Ferrari that has no engine? >> Randy

The Yogo is an old Fiat design. It was a okay car when it was Fiat, though not very relieable. Combine the old design and now workers who built who could care less and you have a really bad car. It had a 1200cc engine. And yes you can double the value of a 86 yugo buy filling the tank and this was even back in 1990. Dave

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> >I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine, > >Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500. > Not in the US. It was Yugo. They had lots of Fiat parts, and I think > the engine was something like 1.2 liters. > Probably the worst car ever sold in the states, spawning all kinds of > goofy jokes... > How do you double the value of a Yugo? > Fill the gas tank > How do make a Yugo go 0-60 in 5 seconds? > Drive it off a cliff > Why do Yugo's come with heated bumpers? > To keep your hands warm while you're pushing it. > My dad's car-stupid neighbor bought one. This was when they were new, > I guess around 86. I can remember hearing him try to start it on cold > mornings. He'd just let it crank forever. > I don't know if it was something he was doing or what, but it would > always take about 5 minutes of cranking to start. > Eventually, he started to thrash the shit out of the thing since he > hated it so much. > One rainy morning, he was giving it the usual thrashing, and lost > control of it on a jughandle, and went off into a drainage basin. > He came home with the car covered with mud and weeds, and a visible > outward dent in the roof -made by his head when he flew out of the > seat. > When he told me about it, he said he was in a lot of pain, but when he > pointed to the dent we both started laughing hysterically. > It was like something out of a cartoon. > It sat there a few days, covered with mud and weeds until the wrecker > that left it came back to take it to it's final resting place. > The guy has since moved out of my dads neighborhood, but I bet he had > a big grin on his face when the Yugo factory was bombed into a pile of > rubble a couple months ago. > -- > http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 > (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

Do to the popularity of the force feedback in GPL I will purchase a force feedback wheel. I'll probably get a Logitech and use with my old set of CH pedals. By the way I will use my TSW Formula for all serious sim racing and the Logitech for the entertainment value of FF. Not to mention it will be alot easier to watch friends and family yank around on the Logitech. If the FF is even close to what everyone has been talking about I might not have to take the wheel back.

I think that the ideal solution is to own both a non-FF wheel and a FF wheel, if possible. My experience with the Saitek FF wheel is that while it works okay in non-FF games (ICR2 and such), I still like a good non-FF wheel for use with a good non-FF sim. I also imagine that FF will create a HUGE frame rate hit for on-line racing, so it might be desirable to have a good non-FF wheel for use in these situations. Additionally, I found that while FF effects did help me turn in better times in Viper Racing initially, I was ultimately able to better these times with my non-FF TSW2 wheel. I think others have probably encountered this same situation, too -- I'm sure I'm not alone in this, at any rate. Given that, when the chips are on the line and the competition is for real, the real competitors might not want to be burdened with the distractioin of the FF effects, so a non-FF wheel would be ideal at those times. Granted, GPL's FF implementation may prove to be more of an enhancement than a distraction, but in the end, despite how good the FF is in Viper Racing, I found it to slightly more of a distraction than an enhancement to me. This is obviously a personal preference thing, but I also imagine that while there will be people who like FF much more than I do, there will also be those who like it much less, too. It's like this with everything: Some of my friends love NFS3, for example, but I personally don't care all that much for it. Nobody's wrong in either case -- it's just a matter of personal opinion. FF is the same way -- you either love it, you hate it, or you don't care much one way or the other. The ultimate solution with regards to the non-FF versus FF issue is obviously to have one of each -- a FF wheel, and a non-FF wheel. This becomes a VERY expensive proposition for the ECCI owners in the group. This is also somewhat cost-prohibitive for the TSW owners, but it's not quite as much of a financial stretch. For example, I still couldn't afford an ECCI for what I have invested in my TSW2 and my Saitek R4 Force wheel, so in the mid-range price category, it is possible to have the best of both worlds. For people using lower-cost non-FF wheels from Thrustmaster, ACT Labs, or other companies, it is possible to find an affordable FF rig to use as a secondary controller. The ACT Labs and Logitech wheels can be had for quite a bit less than $150 (not much more than I paid for my Thrustmaster NASCAR Pro way back when), and refurbished Saitek R4 Force wheels can be had for $79 from Saitek, while my local Best Buy has the Interact V4 Force wheel on sale for $49 (I have heard mixed reviews on this, but most indicate that while this wheel may not be a top-of-the-line FF wheel, it's still nowhere near as bad as the original Interact V4). FF is definitely becoming more affordable. So what we have now is plenty of options and plenty of choices across the entire spectrum. People are going to have their preferences, and people are going to try to defend their choices. Preferences are based on opinions, and opinions are like belly-buttons: Everybody has one. This issue will surely be debated into the ground, I'm sure (we're already several feet deep), but I hope we all take time out to realize how fortunate we are at this point. We've got a lot of great sims on the market, a cornucopia of outstanding controllers to choose from, and the prices keep dropping across the board. So what are we complaining about? Doesn't anybody remember when all we had was the original GP and ICR1 sims, and the Thrustmaster T1 wheel had to be mail-ordered. We've come a long way, baby. Ain't it grand? ;-) -- JB

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>With all due respect John! this Force Feedback will literally blow you away, >if you drift back to a non FF wheel, i would be greatly suprised. >Randy Cassidy and the team have set new standards, that had me trying every >corner on every circuit till 4am this morning........ >I kept giggling out loud, which was a bit disconcerting for my wife, as I >was wearing headphones and she was trying to sleep in the next room >Please please, don't get involved in any arguments about "Who's wheel is >better" or "Force feedback is just a feature" debates, >Go immediatly and take that wheel back from your friend, even though you may >have to fight him if he has a patched version of GPL <g> but wrestle it >from his sweaty palms and then rush home, plug it in, and...........well let >me know..... >Regards Davey_Willo >> Ah, at last something that ECCI and TSW owners can agree on! <G> >> I have access to a Saitek R4 Force wheel, but I find myself seldom >> using it -- my TSW/TSW2 wheels are far more precise, and I can turn in >> consistently better lap times (and better race times, too). The FF >> effects are neat, and in Viper Racing, they do add an immersive >> quality, but there are too many other sensations missing for FF to be >> anything more than a neat gimmick, as far as I'm concerned. Adding in >> the Aura Interactor helps fill in some of the blanks left by a FF >> wheel, but even with that added in, I'm still not ready to trade in my >> TSW. All in all, I really enjoy sims more with my TSW wheels than I >> do with a FF wheel. >> I don't have access to the Saitek wheel today (it's out on loan to a >> friend -- lucky guy!), so the jury is out on GPL and FF for me, but I >> imagine I'll think it's neat up to a point, and slowly drift back to >> using the TSW2 full-time (my TSW2 has a nicer wheel than my TSW <G>). >> -- JB >> On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:06:51 -0500, "Scottie Smith" >> >There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In fact >> >the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade to a >> >newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way. >> >You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When you >do >> >you'll realize what you've been missing:) >> >Scottie >> >>> I think the ff is fantastic! >> >>> Andre >> >>Except on those $1000 ECCI wheels. Or even $300 TSW/TSW2 wheels. ;)

On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:57:58 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"

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>HAHAHHA!!! >Lovely story, Tim!! >I'm not sure if the cars were sold here.....we have a little device called a >"Niki" (Polish, I think) which is a 90s verson of the Fiat 500 and I may >have been getting confused with that. >Your "Yugo" monstrosity sounds a like the US (Or Yugoslav) equivalent of the >East German "Trabant"!!

I don't think the Yugo was quite as bad as the Trabbi, but you've got the general idea! <G> -- JB

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>> >I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine, >> >Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500. >> Not in the US. It was Yugo. They had lots of Fiat parts, and I think >> the engine was something like 1.2 liters. >> Probably the worst car ever sold in the states, spawning all kinds of >> goofy jokes... >> How do you double the value of a Yugo? >> Fill the gas tank >> How do make a Yugo go 0-60 in 5 seconds? >> Drive it off a cliff >> Why do Yugo's come with heated bumpers? >> To keep your hands warm while you're pushing it. >> My dad's car-stupid neighbor bought one. This was when they were new, >> I guess around 86. I can remember hearing him try to start it on cold >> mornings. He'd just let it crank forever. >> I don't know if it was something he was doing or what, but it would >> always take about 5 minutes of cranking to start. >> Eventually, he started to thrash the shit out of the thing since he >> hated it so much. >> One rainy morning, he was giving it the usual thrashing, and lost >> control of it on a jughandle, and went off into a drainage basin. >> He came home with the car covered with mud and weeds, and a visible >> outward dent in the roof -made by his head when he flew out of the >> seat. >> When he told me about it, he said he was in a lot of pain, but when he >> pointed to the dent we both started laughing hysterically. >> It was like something out of a cartoon. >> It sat there a few days, covered with mud and weeds until the wrecker >> that left it came back to take it to it's final resting place. >> The guy has since moved out of my dads neighborhood, but I bet he had >> a big grin on his face when the Yugo factory was bombed into a pile of >> rubble a couple months ago. >> -- >> http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 >> (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

Tim, The Wall Street Journal had an article a couple of months ago about an older guy who drag races a Yugo. I don't remember the times he was turning but I thought it was around 14 seconds which would be amazingly fast for that car. He was a basic back yard mechanic. The article ran in the middle column of the paper which if you follow the Journal always has a somewhat humorous tone. Jeff

I know who this guy is he races out of Englishtown dragway. He even has a web site if you do a search of Yogodave, I think you will find it. He uses a bunch a Fiat parts to get the going quick and also he has realy put the car an a real diet. It run mid 14s and is still Fwd and to my knowledge has a 1200cc motor in it. I raced against one in a Solo ll tho he was basically a one run wonder, the car broke on its first run and never saw it again. Dave

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> >Probably the worst car ever sold in the states, spawning all kinds of > >goofy jokes... > >How do you double the value of a Yugo? > >Fill the gas tank > >How do make a Yugo go 0-60 in 5 seconds? > >Drive it off a cliff > Tim, > The Wall Street Journal had an article a couple of months ago about an > older guy who drag races a Yugo. I don't remember the times he was > turning but I thought it was around 14 seconds which would be > amazingly fast for that car. He was a basic back yard mechanic. The > article ran in the middle column of the paper which if you follow the > Journal always has a somewhat humorous tone. > Jeff

>would be ideal at those times. Granted, GPL's FF implementation may >prove to be more of an enhancement than a distraction, but in the end, >despite how good the FF is in Viper Racing, I found it to slightly >more of a distraction than an enhancement to me. GPL's FF is vastly superior to Vipers (which is not to slam Viper, it was previously the best). The thing about GPL is it's 3D car physics, which is what makes it so difficult to drive (and so realistic). I think that's why GPL got some bad reviews. You drive up a hill, slow down to turn, and the car does one thing. Drive down a hill o a similar turn and the car acts completely differently. Some people are able to interpret the GPL***pit graphics shifts as weight shifts, and thus they can get a feel for driving the car. For many other people the graphics are too subtle, so they never really understand why the car acts as it does in various circumstances. What GPL FF does is level the playing field. It provides a much more direct, visceral feeling of what the weight of the car is doing at any point. For all the people who didn't "get" the subtle***pit graphics the game is really drivable for the first time. Furthermore, it increases the immersiveness of the sim, that feeling that you are really driving a car. For these reasons I think you'll find that the vast majority of people will leave FF turned on at all times, whether racing alone or onlime. I don't think it's quite like that. NFS3 and GPL are apples and oranges. GPL FF effects are a sim enhancement that makes the weakest area of the program (the lack of "seat of pants feel") it's greatest strength. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

John has had plenty of experience with GPL force feedback. While I don't agree with him, and will never go back to a spring loaded wheel, I'm sure lots of others will make that choice. -- Pat Dotson > With all due respect John! this Force Feedback will literally blow you away,

Yugos initially were Fiats that were produced under licence in Yugoslavia, hence the name Yugo (and the spelling). The first Yugos I saw were essentially Fiats 600 with a slightly larger 750cc engine. They also produced the Fiat 127 and Fiat 128 models in licence under the name Yugo. The Yugo that was available in the US for a while was a Fiat 127 with coachwork that was given a more "modern" look, ie more square than the somewhat rounded Fiat 127. I think they also produced a car of their own design but I am not sure of that. Fiats were made under licence in Spain under the name of Seat. And of course in Russia where the Lada was a Fiat 125 built under licence for years and years. Yugos, Seats and Ladas were usually scorned. As a whole the built quality of Yugos and Seats was not as good as the Fiat's. The ladas were scorned because of a lack of luxury items. However all these cars were essentially obsolete cars that were still sold because they were cheap new cars, like Hyundais in the USA. Ladas are actually pretty good, sturdy cars, built to survive bad Russian weather and roads. The Fiat 125 was actually car of the year in 1967. Contrary to urban myth in the US ("fix it again tony") Fiats are actually good cars that serve the purpose that they were built for very well, ie to provide cheap reliable motoring to people with limited income in a congested overcrowded environment with congested narrow roads. They build more cars than the "big three"combined. The most interesting Fiat that is built under licence is a 1950s model, i think the model 1600, that is still built in India to this day (like Morris Oxfords and the like). Dolle Dolf

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> Sorry Bruce -- it IS spelled "Yugo"; it was a small econo car > manufactured in Yugoslavia in the mid-to-late '80s and sold in the US. > Horrid car. I believe you are thinking of the Fiat Uno, perhaps (I > could be wrong on the Uno, being an American and not all that > well-versed in cars not sold on these shores). > -- JB > On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:29:58 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell" > >I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine, > >Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500. > >> > There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In > >> fact > >> > the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade > >> to a > >> > newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way. > >> > You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When > >> you do > >> > you'll realize what you've been missing:) > >> Hmmm. Just to play the devil's advocate (since the devil is apparently > >> too cold to do it himself), which would give you a better driving > >> experience; a fully operational Yugo (whatever that may be :-), or a > >> Ferrari that has no engine? > >> Randy

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>Greg Cisko schrieb: >snip >> Time for me to go buy GPL :-) >Better late than not at all... ;^)

Haven't gotten it yet. I'm waiting to see what the deal is with the time/warping that people are reporting. 10 GPL sec = 14 sec of real time??? I don't need that action :-) I am reading most of the posts though and that is a step in the right direction! -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

HAHAHHA!!! Lovely story, Tim!! I'm not sure if the cars were sold here.....we have a little device called a "Niki" (Polish, I think) which is a 90s verson of the Fiat 500 and I may have been getting confused with that. Your "Yugo" monstrosity sounds a like the US (Or Yugoslav) equivalent of the East German "Trabant"!!

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> >I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine, > >Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500. > Not in the US. It was Yugo. They had lots of Fiat parts, and I think > the engine was something like 1.2 liters. > Probably the worst car ever sold in the states, spawning all kinds of > goofy jokes... > How do you double the value of a Yugo? > Fill the gas tank > How do make a Yugo go 0-60 in 5 seconds? > Drive it off a cliff > Why do Yugo's come with heated bumpers? > To keep your hands warm while you're pushing it. > My dad's car-stupid neighbor bought one. This was when they were new, > I guess around 86. I can remember hearing him try to start it on cold > mornings. He'd just let it crank forever. > I don't know if it was something he was doing or what, but it would > always take about 5 minutes of cranking to start. > Eventually, he started to thrash the shit out of the thing since he > hated it so much. > One rainy morning, he was giving it the usual thrashing, and lost > control of it on a jughandle, and went off into a drainage basin. > He came home with the car covered with mud and weeds, and a visible > outward dent in the roof -made by his head when he flew out of the > seat. > When he told me about it, he said he was in a lot of pain, but when he > pointed to the dent we both started laughing hysterically. > It was like something out of a cartoon. > It sat there a few days, covered with mud and weeds until the wrecker > that left it came back to take it to it's final resting place. > The guy has since moved out of my dads neighborhood, but I bet he had > a big grin on his face when the Yugo factory was bombed into a pile of > rubble a couple months ago. > -- > http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 > (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

I've gotta see this. I'm only 40 minutes from Englishtown, and have been going to the motocross races for years. They're usually running cars the same day, and I can walk up to the MX fence and see the finish line of the drag strip. One of the MX races co-incides with a VW day almost every year, so I get to see a lot of fast punch buggies, but I've NEVER seen a racing Yugo. That must be hilarious. Bet every guy that gets whipped by that quits racing altogether. ;-)

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>I know who this guy is he races out of Englishtown dragway. He even has a >web site if you do a search of Yogodave, I think you will find it. He uses >a bunch a Fiat parts to get the going quick and also he has realy put the >car an a real diet. It run mid 14s and is still Fwd and to my knowledge >has a 1200cc motor in it. >I raced against one in a Solo ll tho he was basically a one run wonder, the >car broke on its first run and never saw it again.

-- http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

Greg Cisko schrieb: Better late than not at all... ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Pat, but I haven't actually experienced GPL FF myself yet -- I was not privvy to any advanced testing prior to the GPL 1.1 release, so I've just been waiting with the rest of you. And now I'm still out in the cold, because the staff's sole FF wheel is currently out on loan (talk about some lucky schmuck -- I wish it was on loan to ME!). I am looking forward to experiencing GPL with FF, and I hope it wins me over fully, but as I said, while I like the FF effects in Viper Racing, they weren't enough to make me a full-time FF wheel user. -- JB

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>John has had plenty of experience with GPL force >feedback. While I don't agree with him, and will >never go back to a spring loaded wheel, I'm sure >lots of others will make that choice. >-- >Pat Dotson >> With all due respect John! this Force Feedback will literally blow you away,

Wasn't the original author talking about John Wallace?... >Thanks for the vote of confidence, Pat, but I haven't actually

> I've gotta see this. I'm only 40 minutes from Englishtown, and have > been going to the motocross races for years. > They're usually running cars the same day, and I can walk up to the MX > fence and see the finish line of the drag strip. It's "Underdog Racing". I saw him there and he was bracket racing until he "broke out" of all things. -- Rich Koehler rgkoehler(at)lucent(dot)com killerk(at)home(dot)com

Hey... cut that out... you can't dent a Trabant, it's plastic. My best mate's first car was a Wartburg (East German as well)... 3 cylinder, two-stroke 860cc (I think) estate. You could soup it up to go like stink, but you'd only get about 3000k's out of an engine. To it's credit, I think we helped about 10 of our fellow students move with it.... I remember a particularly surreal one involving a piano strapped to the roof which actually bent the door struts.... we just hammered them back untill the doors shut properly again. Great car... indestructable, but rudimentary as hell. In the end he gave it away to a guy he knew from being involved in scouting. I think it's still in use today. Jan. ------ >HAHAHHA!!! >Lovely story, Tim!! ><snip>

With my (relatively ) inexpensive MSFF wheel I can feel my Yugo losing control :) -- Ian Parker UKGPL League http://start.at/greenflag --

I thought the Trabant bodywork was actually a form of paper mach? > Hey... cut that out... you can't dent a Trabant, it's plastic. > My best mate's first car was a Wartburg (East German as well)... 3 cylinder,

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> two-stroke 860cc (I think) estate. You could soup it up to go like stink, > but you'd only get about 3000k's out of an engine. To it's credit, I think > we helped about 10 of our fellow students move with it.... I remember a > particularly surreal one involving a piano strapped to the roof which > actually bent the door struts.... we just hammered them back untill the > doors shut properly again. Great car... indestructable, but rudimentary as > hell. In the end he gave it away to a guy he knew from being involved in > scouting. I think it's still in use today. > Jan. > ------ > >HAHAHHA!!! > >Lovely story, Tim!! > ><snip>

Could be... the hood is plastic tho', the wash basin kind.... we bought one off a s***yard on a study trip to Berlin. Ya shoulda seen the looks we got when we walked into the train station with it.... ;-)) Our fraternity has some interesting souvernirs from our student era... road signs, a Traby hood, a bycicle our bus ran over (parking accident), some cement blocks, a ski, .... <g> Jan. --------

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>I thought the Trabant bodywork was actually a form of paper mach? >> Hey... cut that out... you can't dent a Trabant, it's plastic. >><snip>

Sure, sure, but how can you ever justify the cost of these things... even to yourself? Beam this Scottie down.... to reality. Jan. ------ ><snip>

It was. A few years ago one entered the RAC rally. It made it to the end but they were rather worried when it started raining in Keilder forest :-) Mark

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> I thought the Trabant bodywork was actually a form of paper mach? > > Hey... cut that out... you can't dent a Trabant, it's plastic. > > My best mate's first car was a Wartburg (East German as well)... 3 > cylinder, > > two-stroke 860cc (I think) estate. You could soup it up to go like

stink, > > but you'd only get about 3000k's out of an engine. To it's credit, I think > > we helped about 10 of our fellow students move with it.... I remember a > > particularly surreal one involving a piano strapped to the roof which > > actually bent the door struts.... we just hammered them back untill the > > doors shut properly again. Great car... indestructable, but rudimentary as

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> > hell. In the end he gave it away to a guy he knew from being involved in > > scouting. I think it's still in use today. > > Jan. > > ------ > > >HAHAHHA!!! > > >Lovely story, Tim!! > > ><snip>

Those things are all made from papier mach, Jan! :o) > Could be... the hood is plastic tho', the wash basin kind.... we bought one > off a s***yard on a study trip to Berlin. Ya shoulda seen the looks we got > when we walked into the train station with it.... ;-)) > Our fraternity has some interesting souvernirs from our student era... road

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> signs, a Traby hood, a bycicle our bus ran over (parking accident), some > cement blocks, a ski, .... <g> > Jan. > -------- > >I thought the Trabant bodywork was actually a form of paper mach? > >> Hey... cut that out... you can't dent a Trabant, it's plastic. > >><snip>

Didn't the East German kindergarten kids use to make the bodies during "craft time"? :o) > It was. A few years ago one entered the RAC rally. It made it to the end but

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> they were rather worried when it started raining in Keilder forest :-) > Mark > > I thought the Trabant bodywork was actually a form of paper mach? > > > Hey... cut that out... you can't dent a Trabant, it's plastic. > > > My best mate's first car was a Wartburg (East German as well)... 3 > > cylinder, > > > two-stroke 860cc (I think) estate. You could soup it up to go like > stink, > > > but you'd only get about 3000k's out of an engine. To it's credit, I > think > > > we helped about 10 of our fellow students move with it.... I remember

a > > > particularly surreal one involving a piano strapped to the roof which > > > actually bent the door struts.... we just hammered them back untill the > > > doors shut properly again. Great car... indestructable, but rudimentary > as > > > hell. In the end he gave it away to a guy he knew from being involved in

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> > > scouting. I think it's still in use today. > > > Jan. > > > ------ > > > >HAHAHHA!!! > > > >Lovely story, Tim!! > > > ><snip>

indestructable, but rudimentary as Hey, something was wrong. Wartburg has an 1000 cc 50 hp engine on 5000 rpm. At 3000 rpm that should feel like 600 cc. BTW it was made at pre-war BMW factory, sporty thing that car. Oh yes, separate body&chassis.. Tapani

>I thought the Trabant bodywork was actually a form of paper mach? The GDR economy had a hard time producing or buying enough sheet metal to produce cars. Therefore, the developers of the Trabant came up with a replacement material for the roof, doors and hoods. This stuff is not exactly paper mach: it's a plastic composit material which shares some characteristics with modern fiber materials (but also with pressed wood and paper mach, to be sure. :) It's easy to poke fun of the Trabant, and it was a ridiculous car in the late 80s and early 90s, but it was quite a good car in 1958, when it was developed. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Thanks, Wolfgang.

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> >I thought the Trabant bodywork was actually a form of paper mach? > The GDR economy had a hard time producing or buying enough sheet metal > to produce cars. Therefore, the developers of the Trabant came up with > a replacement material for the roof, doors and hoods. This stuff is > not exactly paper mach: it's a plastic composit material which shares > some characteristics with modern fiber materials (but also with > pressed wood and paper mach, to be sure. :) > It's easy to poke fun of the Trabant, and it was a ridiculous car in > the late 80s and early 90s, but it was quite a good car in 1958, when > it was developed. > -- > Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

cancellation warned.