Cowards

On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 03:29:37 GMT, How will you 'expose' them if you don't know their identity? -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

What makes you think a 'Vet' is any different from the rest of society-where do you think they came from? Generally weak people are real brave when they don't have to confront you face-to-face. It also seems to me that you are calling people names and making threats of what you are going to do while using the WEB. Sort of like calling the kettle black isn't it. It's real easy when you don't have to worry about a***in your mouth! Why are you so different than the people you are complaining about? Paul (aVet and not hiding)

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> Come on out you cowards, show who you > are! I will expose anyone that sends me E-mail that is harassment or > abusive and/ or says lies about me, and cowers behind a phony name > and/or address. > ================== > Steven S. Palmer > http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/4001/ > [link lost in import: /~ssp/] > http://members.tripod.com/~stevenscott/ > ----------------------------------

On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 05:01:44 GMT, Actually, Steven, some of us -do- worry about it, since you are cluttering this newsgroup with messages that seem to have nothing to do with racing sims. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 05:30:22 GMT,

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>>On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 05:01:44 GMT, >>> They may >>>have decided to send me harassing E-mail because I post on a news >>>group for VETS. So, Don't worry about it. >>Actually, Steven, some of us -do- worry about it, since you >>are cluttering this newsgroup with messages that seem to >>have nothing to do with racing sims. >>Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. >---- >Hey, I see you have info and links to help fight spam, maybe you can >help me track and stop the spammers, and harassers? You got any info >or someone that might help me, you can ICQ me if you got some good >tips to share. Thanx.

Steven, this free program will help you track the source of the email: http://www.blighty.com/products/spade/spade110.exe This will give you some pointers on using it: http://www.blighty.com/products/spade/help/ This will give you some info on tracking the sender: http://www.blighty.com/products/spade/help/d_docs.htm Also, our Tools page will get you LOTS of info: http://www.sputum.com/cns/tools.html Good luck! -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

>Well, I am not so sure that the person that is the harasser is not >from here either. But, I do mostly stay on topic, it was just a brief, >'if your from here, stop it' message. And I will not repeat it, just >said it once. Dont forget your other post which seemed more appropriate for a group which deals in selling and buying computer goods. -- Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo - - V8Supercars - CART -

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> I do not understand how people can be Vets, fight in wars, but when > it comes to the Internet and news groups they send threatening > messages to people, refuse to give a real name and address, and stalk > people around the Internet and news groups. What I find that's really > cowardly is they chase and harass people that are sick and disabled, > use phony identity, and send people threats telling them not to visit > news groups and post messages. Come on out you cowards, show who you > are! I will expose anyone that sends me E-mail that is harassment or > abusive and/ or says lies about me, and cowers behind a phony name > and/or address.

I can perfectly understand what many people choose to use aliases on the internet. It actually makes a great deal of sense, especially when they are regular users of Usenet. You think they are cowards for using an alias? Why? Perhaps they're just not comfortable about people knowing their name, in case somebody they know were to read a message from then on Dejanews, for example? How can we be sure that YOU aren't using an alias yourself? There's little in the way to say that you're not, except for taking your word on it. I believe that everybody is entitled to trust, unless they give reason to prove otherwise. Thomas Ford "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

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> > I do not understand how people can be Vets, fight in wars, but when > > it comes to the Internet and news groups they send threatening > > messages to people, refuse to give a real name and address, and stalk > > people around the Internet and news groups. What I find that's really > > cowardly is they chase and harass people that are sick and disabled, > > use phony identity, and send people threats telling them not to visit > > news groups and post messages. Come on out you cowards, show who you > > are! I will expose anyone that sends me E-mail that is harassment or > > abusive and/ or says lies about me, and cowers behind a phony name > > and/or address. > I can perfectly understand what many people choose to use aliases on > the internet. It actually makes a great deal of sense, especially when > they are regular users of Usenet. > You think they are cowards for using an alias? Why? Perhaps they're > just not comfortable about people knowing their name, in case somebody > they know were to read a message from then on Dejanews, for example? > How can we be sure that YOU aren't using an alias yourself? There's > little in the way to say that you're not, except for taking your word > on it. I believe that everybody is entitled to trust, unless they give > reason to prove otherwise. > Thomas Ford > "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply"

Interesting agruments. But about not wanting people to know to look what you write, shouldn't you reconcider what you are writing. I bet that if people you know gets offended by it, many other will too. Specially in serious newsgroups. Well, right after i wrote this i found out it isn't that easy either. It's like I hate when other people listen to me when i talk on the telephone. Not that it is anything secret about what i am saying or anything like that, I just hate it. But then again, this is a forum, not private email. It's kind of discussing things on TV (no not ricki lake :) and not wanting people you know to see it. Not very easy. "Hey mom, would you mind NOT watching tv tonight" -- Olav K. Malmin (arguing with himself today) remove spam when replying

between the 'cowards' thing and the voodoo2-banshee (good prices now) thing, this steven guy has the honor of becoming the first member of the killfile on my new newsreader! congrats! just thought i'd commemorate the occasion. (it would also be a hoot if he tried to report me to my isp, since that's my school and one of the comp. administrators happens to be.... well....me......)

Oh no. It has invaded. The original WUTH (Whining Usenet Troll from Hell - tm) has found rec.autos.simulators. Folks, either get out yer twit-filters or perpare for MAJOR off-topic flame-wars. Don't say I didn't warn you.

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> I do not understand how people can be Vets, fight in wars, but when >it comes to the Internet and news groups they send threatening >messages to people, refuse to give a real name and address, and stalk >people around the Internet and news groups. What I find that's really >cowardly is they chase and harass people that are sick and disabled, >use phony identity, and send people threats telling them not to visit >news groups and post messages. Come on out you cowards, show who you >are! I will expose anyone that sends me E-mail that is harassment or >abusive and/ or says lies about me, and cowers behind a phony name >and/or address. >================== >Steven S. Palmer >http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/4001/ >[link lost in import: /~ssp/] >http://members.tripod.com/~stevenscott/ >----------------------------------

Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

a few quick things before i cover you back up- 1)i don't see how your "40 years experience, engineering degrees, and a nice person with no criminal record" (if i read your mangled english gramar correctly) changes the fact that you were completely wrong about the video card issue and became extremely defensive and obnoxious when people tried (very patiently) to correct you. (to have a coherent sentence - and also to make sense- you have to specify over whose word i am taking yours... do you mean the "***agers who have no respect for others? who are they? also, i'm not sure on what issue it is i am taking said word. if it's the video card one, well.... it's quite clear that a banshee is not the same as a voodoo2.) 2)you sound awfully..... paranoid. 3)who, exactly, are "people like me?" i'd be interested in meeting them-- we'd have lots in common.... mark have 40 years experience, engineering degrees, and a nice person with no criminal record. I guess the ***agers that have no respect for others have more credibility these days? If that's your thought pattern I will welcome your adding me to your kill file.

What does this stupid rant have to do with sim racing? Stick to the newsgroup topics please. As it has been said, " Paranoia will destroy ya!!"

Welcome to this ***agers kill file :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.bromley-fc.co.uk ICQ# 11257824

You call this credibility? You consider your actions those of a "nice" person? You have come into this great newsgroup spewing utter ***and when others have tried patiently to explain to you the difference in a V2 and Banshee card, you have responded with nothing but paranoia and defensivness. ES&D *PLONK* don []-(_)-[]

Being a Veteran like you claim to be, perhaps you could appreciate the first amendment more than most since you claim to have fought in wars over freedom. He's a prime example of someone (Oskar) trying to freely express himself, and what do want to do? Shut him down. Why? Because you don't like what he says. How free is that? Please think before you speak, it can save a lot of problems for everyone.

yikes! plonkomatic, right away!

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> I do not understand how people can be Vets, fight in wars, but when > it comes to the Internet and news groups they send threatening > messages to people, refuse to give a real name and address, and stalk > people around the Internet and news groups. What I find that's really > cowardly is they chase and harass people that are sick and disabled, > use phony identity, and send people threats telling them not to visit > news groups and post messages. Come on out you cowards, show who you > are! I will expose anyone that sends me E-mail that is harassment or > abusive and/ or says lies about me, and cowers behind a phony name > and/or address. > ================== > Steven S. Palmer > http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/4001/ > http://www.primenet.com/~ssp/ > http://members.tripod.com/~stevenscott/ > ----------------------------------

that's super-deluxe cheesy, steven (and it ain't true, neither) he didn't harass you because of your alleged disabilty; he "harassed" you for other, more relevant reasons But Oskar, I'll be happy to back you up when the cops arrive! ;)

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> >:>On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 03:29:37 GMT, > >:> > >:>> Come on out you cowards, show who you > >:>>are! I will expose anyone that sends me E-mail that is harassment or > >:>>abusive and/ or says lies about me, and cowers behind a phony name > >:>>and/or address. > >:> > >:>How will you 'expose' them if you don't know their identity? > >Geez!! We went through this same paranoia bullshit from him a few > >months ago on the primenet.general newsgroup. We were "all out to get > >him". He was going to have every primenet customer and employee > >thrown in jail for either disagreeing with something he posted or > >complaining about his continual whining. The solution we found there > >is to just ignore him and eventually he'll go away and find another > >newsgroup to spam with all his delusions of paranoia. The more you > >respond to him the more ***he'll post in response. After all, he's > >handicapped (mentally I believe based on his posts) and we should bow > >down to him and give him everything he wants. :-) > >Oh yeah, and NEVER disagree with him or point out his mistakes. That > >really will set him off. > >Oskar > -------- > You have been reported to your ISP for abuse/harassment, Harassing a > person because of Disability and/or Perceived disability is against > the ISP contract and against Federal Law. > -------------------------

>Are you the coward? Someone here is a coward and goes behind my back... This from the guy who routinely runs to complain to ISPs at the slightest flame? ("Mommy mommy, Johny called me a name!") GMAB. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

>snipped... >Are you the coward? Someone here is a coward and goes behind my back, >are you the coward? Trying to harass me? Do it out in the open if you >are. No, no, no. The coward is Surtees. He's always driving up behind my back. As soon as I brake, he taps me from behind & sends me into the hay bales! I'm gonna challenge that coward to a fight. Right out in the open. I'm gonna stand at the start / finish line at Monza & raise my arm at him!!! If he doesn't show, I'm gonna report him to his team manager & ISP!!! -- " Why bother..." - R. Crumb -

Oh my, coming from you that sounds SO pervy... BTW you might want to check out http://members.aol.com/sirnoelcow/index.html I think you'll find the guy you're looking for, Steve. Don't tell him I told you, though. Cheez. Peter ---------------- (there's 1 too many in my e-mail address)

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>Well it's like this, everyone can see me on my web sites, and know who >I am that I am credible. on the other hand, you have a bunch of Kids, >that are full of shit, using their parents computers, or school >computers, and have no credibility whatsoever. You can say shit, but >everyone can see your full of shit. Stupid little kids like the punks >in Colorado. Stupid punks. I invite those that are nice to be my >friends, And share good times. To those that are only here to hurt >others and create havoc, go away. >--

Does anyone else think this guy is just a scam artist??? I mean think about it, what better scam than to fool the doctors in believing you have some unknown illness so you can sit at home and play Nascar2. If you will notice that in between all of his pathetic posts about how he just numb with pain he is trying to drum people up to join him on Kali. Furthermore, if you even perform the most preliminary search on dejanews you will find that he spends the other 1/3 of his life watching TV. So lets add this up, one third play on Kail, one third attacking people on the newsgroups, and one third watching TV. And all the while getting paid by my tax dollars. Perhaps if you added a section on your web page giving step by step instructions on how we can join you in this little scam we would be more sympathetic.

>To those that are only here to ... create havoc, go away. Whoa, a guy giving himself the finger. First time I've seen that. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

Dale, the only handicap that clown has is on the golf course. don []-(_)-[] >Does anyone else think this guy is just a scam artist??? I mean think >about it, what better scam than to fool the doctors in believing you >have some unknown illness so you can sit at home and play Nascar2. If >you will notice that in between all of his pathetic posts about how he >just numb with pain he is trying to drum people up to join him on >Kali.

>Does anyone else think this guy is just a scam artist??? Having seen him dirsupt many other newsgroups, I'm afraid he's all too serious. With regard to his illness, you can't fake Crohn's Disease, the diagnosis is pretty accurate. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

you know, that's a tough one. i'm in med school, and irritable bowel/crohn's/ulcerative colitis (whichever he thinks he has at the moment) is just one of those disese spectrums that you can never be sure of. when it's real, it surely can be debilitating. but it is also well known as one of the easier diseases to fake. wouldn't take much research to know how to do it. i don't know this guy, and it's probably not very nice to say this- but based on the sewage he's posted in this thread (he actually asked if i was the "coward" hahaha) and on what you've said about him (assuming it's true)- i'd have to say there's a good chance he's pulling a scam to get disability. we see this kind of malingering in the clinic alot. tough to say for sure, but i wouldn't be surprised. about it, what better scam than to fool the doctors in believing you have some unknown illness so you can sit at home and play Nascar2. If you will notice that in between all of his pathetic posts about how he just numb with pain he is trying to drum people up to join him on Kali. Furthermore, if you even perform the most preliminary search on dejanews you will find that he spends the other 1/3 of his life watching TV. So lets add this up, one third play on Kail, one third attacking people on the newsgroups, and one third watching TV. And all the while getting paid by my tax dollars. Perhaps if you added a section on your web page giving step by step instructions on how we can join you in this little scam we would be more sympathetic.

He must be a Vietnam Vet. I learned a long time ago it doesn't do any good to argue with nuts. Just agree politely with them and they will go away.

I know nothing about being a Vietnam Vet. From the sound of your response, it appears that you were and that you may need therapy. Good luck to you. BTW, it was an attempt at humor and not an attack on vets.

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>>He must be a Vietnam Vet. >>I learned a long time ago it doesn't do any good to argue >>with nuts. Just agree politely with them and they will >>go away. >Just what the *** do you know about being a Vietnam vet? I invite you to >wander into my killzone you little shit-stain.

Just what the *** do you know about being a Vietnam vet? I invite you to wander into my killzone you little shit-stain.

I'll "Second" that. You blast him and I'll***on the pieces before I kick shit on top of them. Paul

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> >He must be a Vietnam Vet. > >I learned a long time ago it doesn't do any good to argue > >with nuts. Just agree politely with them and they will > >go away. > Just what the *** do you know about being a Vietnam vet? I invite you to > wander into my killzone you little shit-stain.

hey- just thought all of you guys who'd been reading this thread (out of boredom, i guess :) )would like to hear that Steve Palmer actually attempted to complain to my ISP (my school) about me. Then when I asked him why he did that (over ICQ), he became belligerent and used one of those "nuking" programs on me (you know, the kind that disconnects you from the net). it was really pretty amusing- since this is supposedly a grownup, after all. i'd expect a 16-yr. old to try that, but really.... when this whole thing started out, i honestly had no problem with the guy- except that he was making some really paranoid and inaccurate posts that just amused me. then he accused me of being his "coward" (even funnier)--- and then he inexplicably e-mailed my school about me... he ended up by threatening to call the police (i don't know how that would work, since he lives in CA i believe and i live i new york). then he hinted at consequences and dropped his little nuke. craziness, i tell you....

If it wasn't so completely unjust, that comment would be laughable. How the hell did you make the step from "Vietnam vet" to "nuts" ?! That's easily one of the most pathetic comments I've read on the net. Maybe a public apology is in order?

You should have been more careful with your wording then. The only therapy we vets need is the respect that we are due for putting our lives on the line so that all of us can have the right to *** and moan about a the quality of sims, the timeliness of updates, and how cool some of these sims are. Whether the war that I fought in was justifiable or not, is not, the fact is that I participated and I get real pissed off when someone that hasn't got a clue as to what we all went through comes out and says shit like this.

You are absolutely right. I apologize. >If it wasn't so completely unjust, that comment would be laughable. How the >hell did you make the step from "Vietnam vet" to "nuts" ?! >That's easily one of the most pathetic comments I've read on the net. Maybe

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>a public apology is in order? >> He must be a Vietnam Vet. >> I learned a long time ago it doesn't do any good to argue with nuts.

Just >> agree politely with them and they will go away.

That's an ineffective dodge. It was an attempt at humor that focused on and utilized an entirely derogatory stereotype about Vietnam vets, a stereotype that DOES attack Vietnam vets. It was the utterance of a m***dinosaur. DK

>Just what the *** do you know about being a Vietnam vet? I invite you to >wander into my killzone you little shit-stain. You sound like an expert right enough - learned from Oliver Stone no doubt. Lighten up John

Sorry John, but I think you are all wet on this one. No one has the right to make derogatory remarks about VN Vet as a whole, especially if they have never walked the walk. Paul

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> >Just what the *** do you know about being a Vietnam vet? I invite you to > >wander into my killzone you little shit-stain. > You sound like an expert right enough - learned from Oliver Stone no > doubt. > Lighten up > John

>Sorry John, but I think you are all wet on this one. No one has the right to >make derogatory remarks about VN Vet as a whole, especially if they have never >walked the walk. Paul Pardon me, but weren't those vet's fighting for freedom of speech? In any case, I think people have infinitely more right to express an opinion of vet's than refer to someone as a "little shit-stain". Cheers! John

"No one has the right......"?????!!!!! You *ARE* living in the United States, aren't you? I gather that it's still a democracy, then? > Sorry John, but I think you are all wet on this one. No one has the right to > make derogatory remarks about VN Vet as a whole, especially if they have never

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> walked the walk. Paul > > >Just what the *** do you know about being a Vietnam vet? I invite you

to

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> > >wander into my killzone you little shit-stain. > > You sound like an expert right enough - learned from Oliver Stone no > > doubt. > > Lighten up > > John

says... >>Just what the *** do you know about being a Vietnam vet? I >>invite you to wander into my killzone you little shit-stain. >You sound like an expert right enough - learned from Oliver >Stone no doubt. I was there. Were you? Didn't think so...

I was not referring to a "Constitutional Right". Why does every thing degenerate to freedom of speech crap. The bottom line is that no one has the right to categorize all VN Vets as crazy. Let's see now, "All people who do not live in the United States of America are second class citizens because they live in a second class country because the US is the only Super Power. Do I have the right to say that bullshit. Even if I believed it I should have enough common sense and courtesy to keep it to my self. Paul

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> "No one has the right......"?????!!!!! > You *ARE* living in the United States, aren't you? I gather that it's still > a democracy, then? > > Sorry John, but I think you are all wet on this one. No one has the right > to > > make derogatory remarks about VN Vet as a whole, especially if they have > never > > walked the walk. Paul > > > >Just what the *** do you know about being a Vietnam vet? I invite you > to > > > >wander into my killzone you little shit-stain. > > > You sound like an expert right enough - learned from Oliver Stone no > > > doubt. > > > Lighten up > > > John

Just what the hell does freedom of speech have to do with some one referring to "all" VN Vets as crazy? So Vets are fair game but individuals are not! Now that really passes the logic test It is apparent that you have never served your country much less been put in harms way so someone would continue to have the so called right to call you crazy. Paul

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> Pardon me, but weren't those vet's fighting for freedom of speech? > In any case, I think people have infinitely more right to express an > opinion of vet's than refer to someone as a "little shit-stain". > Cheers! > John

Freedom of speech is not crap. Some of the speech it protects is, though. Sure they do. That doesn't make them right, but they have the right to do it. Yes, you have the right to say it. It doesn't make you or the statement correct, though. So, according to you no-one has the "right" to breach your view of common sense and courtesy? Since people in the NG like to quote song lyrics from time to time, I will quote some here: "You say I offended you? Well I'm sorry, but maybe you needed to be offended. So, here's my apology and another thing: 'F*CK YOU!'" -Mike Muir (ST) I don't actually mean this of course, just making a point. Thank you for your service to our country, ~daxe

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> You should have been more careful with your wording then. The only > therapy we vets need is the respect that we are due for putting our lives > on the line so that all of us can have the right to *** and moan about > a the quality of sims, the timeliness of updates, and how cool some of > these sims are. Whether the war that I fought in was justifiable or not, > is not, the fact is that I participated and I get real pissed off when > someone that hasn't got a clue as to what we all went through comes out > and says shit like this. > >I know nothing about being a Vietnam Vet. From the sound of your > response, > >it appears that you were and that you may need therapy. > >Good luck to you. > >BTW, it was an attempt at humor and not an attack on vets.

I personally know NOTHING of the horrors of WAR, but would NEVER joke about it. You have EVERY right to be disgusted with this persons disrespectful "humor" as he so calls it.

> Pardon me, but weren't those vet's fighting for freedom of speech? NO!---they were not fighting for freedom of speech----that was never in jeopardy or an issue of vietnam that we went to war over. When was the last time you heard "vietnam--the war for free speech". The US in fact was never in direct jeopardy, and I personally objected to it, but that's another story. It was a HUGE political war and nothing more, that cost many good men their lives, and countless others there souls. That war, NOT the men who fought in it, should be forgotten as quickly as possible in my opinion. But first we must learn from the terrible mistake that was made there. It left a bad taste in the mouth of the entire world. Personally I think they are both wrong John. Althugh they both have the legal right to do so, they need to ask themsleves if they have the m*** right. Expressing an opinion about something you know nothing about(being a veteran of war), is NO better than insulting a person you know nothing about. They both(the replies, not the people) are poor excuses for human relations, and are the reason many wars are started in the first place. People just need to think a little more before they speak.....it would save a ton of trouble for the world.

When the word "right" is used in the context that it was used in. refering to the statement-- ""All people who do not live in the United States of America are second class citizens because they live in a second class country because the US is the only Super Power." Do I have the right to say that bullshit."--pqt2 --It means "morally right", or "politicaly correct". The writer does not intend for it to refer to a "god given right", or a "1st amendment right". Whether you or I agree with the statement or not, is irrelavant. But it should not be taken out of context.

> You are absolutely right. I apologize. I commend you on your ability to know when you are wrong, and apologize for your mistake.

>I was there. Were you? Didn't think so... Given that my country was not involved in that particular debacle, and considering further that I was of a very tender age indeed I would think it unlikely. Not that it is germane to the discussion in any way. "Being there" still falls a long way short of giving you any kind of right to call anyone a "shitstain" for expressing their opinion, particularly since you were supposedly fighting for their right to express that opinion. Cheers! John

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> I suggest that you check back on some of the public statements made by your > (USA) public figures. Kennedy and Johnson come immediately to mind. > You'll find that one of the reasons that the USA was defending the Free > World by sending troops to Vietnam was to ensure Freedom of Speech. > Maybe not yours....but certainly the South Vietnamese.

My apologies for not stating my points clearly enough.....I was referring to the fact that the freedom of speech for anyone outside of Vietnam was never in any jeopardy. And that soldiers weren't fighting for yours and my freedom of speech. We did not go to war in Vietnam because OUR freedom of speech was threatened.

Sometimes, my friend, the only way of coping for those who are experiencing the "horrors of war" *IS* to joke about it. > > You should have been more careful with your wording then. The only > > therapy we vets need is the respect that we are due for putting our lives > > on the line so that all of us can have the right to *** and moan about > > a the quality of sims, the timeliness of updates, and how cool some of > > these sims are. Whether the war that I fought in was justifiable or not,

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> > is not, the fact is that I participated and I get real pissed off when > > someone that hasn't got a clue as to what we all went through comes out > > and says shit like this. > > >I know nothing about being a Vietnam Vet. From the sound of your > > response, > > >it appears that you were and that you may need therapy. > > >Good luck to you. > > >BTW, it was an attempt at humor and not an attack on vets. > I personally know NOTHING of the horrors of WAR, but would NEVER joke > about it. You have EVERY right to be disgusted with this persons > disrespectful "humor" as he so calls it.

I suggest that you check back on some of the public statements made by your (USA) public figures. Kennedy and Johnson come immediately to mind. You'll find that one of the reasons that the USA was defending the Free World by sending troops to Vietnam was to ensure Freedom of Speech. Maybe not yours....but certainly the South Vietnamese.

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> > Pardon me, but weren't those vet's fighting for freedom of speech? > NO!---they were not fighting for freedom of speech----that was never in > jeopardy or an issue of vietnam that we went to war over. When was the > last time you heard "vietnam--the war for free speech". The US in fact > was never in direct jeopardy, and I personally objected to it, but > that's another story. It was a HUGE political war and nothing more, that > cost many good men their lives, and countless others there souls. That > war, NOT the men who fought in it, should be forgotten as quickly as > possible in my opinion. But first we must learn from the terrible > mistake that was made there. It left a bad taste in the mouth of the > entire world. > > In any case, I think people have infinitely more right to express an > > opinion of vet's than refer to someone as a "little shit-stain". > Personally I think they are both wrong John. Althugh they both have the > legal right to do so, they need to ask themsleves if they have the m*** > right. Expressing an opinion about something you know nothing > about(being a veteran of war), is NO better than insulting a person you > know nothing about. They both(the replies, not the people) are poor > excuses for human relations, and are the reason many wars are started in > the first place. People just need to think a little more before they > speak.....it would save a ton of trouble for the world. > > Cheers! > > John

Hmmm...perhaps people don't want to reveal which NGs they browse/post to. Imagine a business associate looking for a post, searches dejanews and finds an entry to alt.binaries.amateur.***s or something. D'oh! Ben

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> > > I do not understand how people can be Vets, fight in wars, but when > > > it comes to the Internet and news groups they send threatening > > > messages to people, refuse to give a real name and address, and stalk > > > people around the Internet and news groups. What I find that's really > > > cowardly is they chase and harass people that are sick and disabled, > > > use phony identity, and send people threats telling them not to visit > > > news groups and post messages. Come on out you cowards, show who you > > > are! I will expose anyone that sends me E-mail that is harassment or > > > abusive and/ or says lies about me, and cowers behind a phony name > > > and/or address. > > I can perfectly understand what many people choose to use aliases on > > the internet. It actually makes a great deal of sense, especially when > > they are regular users of Usenet. > > You think they are cowards for using an alias? Why? Perhaps they're > > just not comfortable about people knowing their name, in case somebody > > they know were to read a message from then on Dejanews, for example? > > How can we be sure that YOU aren't using an alias yourself? There's > > little in the way to say that you're not, except for taking your word > > on it. I believe that everybody is entitled to trust, unless they give > > reason to prove otherwise. > > Thomas Ford > > "Please remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply" > Interesting agruments. But about not wanting people to know to look what

you > write, shouldn't you reconcider what you are writing. I bet that if people you > know gets offended by it, many other will too. Specially in serious newsgroups. > Well, right after i wrote this i found out it isn't that easy either. It's like > I hate when other people listen to me when i talk on the telephone. Not that it > is anything secret about what i am saying or anything like that, I just hate > it. But then again, this is a forum, not private email. It's kind of discussing > things on TV (no not ricki lake :) and not wanting people you know to see it. > Not very easy. "Hey mom, would you mind NOT watching tv tonight" > -- > Olav K. Malmin (arguing with himself today) > remove spam when replying

Whoa, that's a pretty *** consequence...<tic> unless on the last lap, leading at Rouen, in which case <for real> Ben

>I personally know NOTHING of the horrors of WAR, but would NEVER joke >about it. You have EVERY right to be disgusted with this persons >disrespectful "humor" as he so calls it. Except for the fact that he apologized for his remarks about two days ago. Old news. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

Not to go too much into this unpleasant area of physiology, but if it _were_ truly ulcerative colitis or even Crohn's disease, it's usually not too difficult to diagnose with colonoscopy. Irritable bowel syndrome, on the other hand, might be faked a little more easily. Don't know which he claims to have, if any of these.

> >I was there. Were you? Didn't think so... > Given that my country was not involved in that particular debacle, and > considering further that I was of a very tender age indeed I would > think it unlikely. Not that it is germane to the discussion in any > way. "Not germane?" I would disagree. What you've learned in your textbooks and in whatever lame Vietnam war movies you may have seen probably gives you far less basis to judge the character of Nam vets than Mr. Simmons. While you're certainly entitled to whatever opinion you have, the thread from "Mark Abbot" where he says... I learned a long time ago it doesn't do any good to argue with nuts. Just agree politely with them and they will go away.>> ...painted these vets with a VERY broad and unfair brush by implying that they're often "nuts". I think that Simmons...who says that he was there and who I have no reason to question...has a better idea than most of us if this was true. Which it is not. This is an insult to these vets, but you seem to think that they have more of a right to these insults than Mr. Simmons does to be offended by them and reply in kind. While Mr. Simmon's choice of words may be questioned, he and other vets like him have been criticized, lampooned, and condemned for their service while those who fault them are praised for exercising their freedom of speech. Yep, life isn't fair. Really? Why does he have any less of a right to call anyone that name? If that's his opinion, then so be it. And the same goes for Mark Abbot. Its just amazing that you'll support the attacks on these vets but jump all over the vet who is insulted and responds a little harsher than you think he should. Now who's the one trying to limit speech? Mr. Simmons, I thank you for your service.

> Except for the fact that he apologized for his remarks about two days > ago. Old news. And? I can't respond to it? Sorry I wasn't timely enough. :)

Joe, some ISP feeds are not updated as often as others. Therefore, what may appear to be old news to you is probably a fresh posting to him.

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> >I personally know NOTHING of the horrors of WAR, but would NEVER joke > >about it. You have EVERY right to be disgusted with this persons > >disrespectful "humor" as he so calls it. > Except for the fact that he apologized for his remarks about two days > ago. Old news. > Joe McGinn > ========================================== > Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network > [link lost in import: /***.com/] > ==========================================

Bring on the sigmoidoscope!!! ~daxe

Could we please kill this thread and return to the topic of this newsgroup thanks ! :)

On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 03:29:06 -0400, "Gault"

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>> Given that my country was not involved in that particular debacle, and >> considering further that I was of a very tender age indeed I would >> think it unlikely. Not that it is germane to the discussion in any >> way. >"Not germane?" I would disagree. What you've learned in your textbooks and >in whatever lame Vietnam war movies you may have seen probably gives you far >less basis to judge the character of Nam vets than Mr. Simmons.

And your cage was rattled by...? Go back to the start of the thread. READ it. You will then understand why it is not germane. Was this before or after the vets started calling people "shitstain"? Staistically I can guarantee you that more vets are nuts than people are "shitstains". No-one has any right to call anyone a shitstain for expressing an opinion. My opinion is that he shouldn't do it - why then is it that your "so be it" attitude doesn't apply for my opinion also? No-one. Had the retort been made in reasonable language I would never have commented, as it was I'm not limiting anything, merely exercising MY freedom of speech to opine that he's wrong. Cheers! John

> Just what the hell does freedom of speech have to do with some one referring to >"all" VN Vets as crazy? Who did that and when? All I saw was someone calling someone else a "shitstain". It's never been put forward as a candidate for your "logic test" until you invented it just now. I've never been asked to serve my country, although I do have the utmost respect for people like Ali who stand up for what THEY believe in rather than what their "superiors" do. I could have the strategic mind of Napoleon and the fighting ability of Rambo and Arnie rolled into one and there's still nothing would have persuaded me to fight in that "war". Cheers! John

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>Personally I think they are both wrong John. Althugh they both have the >legal right to do so, they need to ask themsleves if they have the m*** >right. Expressing an opinion about something you know nothing >about(being a veteran of war), is NO better than insulting a person you >know nothing about. They both(the replies, not the people) are poor >excuses for human relations, and are the reason many wars are started in >the first place. People just need to think a little more before they >speak.....it would save a ton of trouble for the world.

Now THAT I can agree with, I'd go to war to fight for that. Cheers! John PS - DOH! Missed the point again... :-)

>>>>...painted these vets with a VERY broad and unfair brush by implying that >>>>they're often "nuts". >> Was this before or after the vets started calling people "shitstain"? >> Staistically I can guarantee you that more vets are nuts than people >> are "shitstains". He did not reply with the "shit stain" comment until after the comment regarding vets being "nuts" was made. He didn't just come on here to call someone a "shit stain" for the fun of it. And second, I can ONLY imagine the horrors of an ACTUAL war, not some glorified "Rambo", or "Commando" movie. Living through one of these and especially on the front lines, I can easily see how that would make someone "nuts" real quick. Imagine having bullets fly by you at every angle, each one with your name on it, or watching your best buddy have his legs blown off by a land mine or mortar, and having to sit there, and watch his pain, and slow death. That's not something that will sit well with ANYONE. So unless you have been there, I personally don't think anyone should comment regarding a veterans mental stability. To me, it only natural that they would be a little "nuts". I know I would be. See, now this kills me----you claim as well as others that Abbot had the right to say anything he want, because of free speech, yet when someone replies with something that offends you, what happens? People start claiming he has no right to respond that way......so let me get this straight, as long as people don't offend you with what they say, then they have the right to say it, but if you don't agree with it, "shit stain" being the example, then they don't have the right to say it. Where does the freedom lie in that thinking?

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> On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 03:29:06 -0400, "Gault" > >> Given that my country was not involved in that particular debacle, and > >> considering further that I was of a very tender age indeed I would > >> think it unlikely. Not that it is germane to the discussion in any > >> way. > >"Not germane?" I would disagree. What you've learned in your textbooks

and > >in whatever lame Vietnam war movies you may have seen probably gives you far > >less basis to judge the character of Nam vets than Mr. Simmons. > And your cage was rattled by...? > Go back to the start of the thread. READ it. You will then understand > why it is not germane. Nice dodge with a snotty rejoinder to boot, but that doesn't cut it. I had read the entire thread, and you've done little to back up why your noninvolvement and seeming ignorance of the conflict trump Mr. Simmon's experience and judgement. You admit that you've never fought for your country (which did have advisors and others in Vietnam, by the way...not to mention all the ANZAC forces there) and then instead of saying that you're grateful for those who have, you applaud somebody named "Ali" (Hines, I'm guessing) and applaud her for whatever it is that she believes in. Why am I not surprised that you disagree with Mr. Simmons? Since you seem interested in statistics, here are a few for you. Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of their non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent. Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than their non-vet age group. Vietnam Veterans are less likely to be in prison - only 1/2 of one percent of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes. There is no difference in drug usage between Vietnam Veterans and non veterans of the same age group (from a Veterans Administration study). After 5 years post-service, suicides among Vietnam vets is less than the general population (although there was an initial increase to 1.7 times more likely for that first 5 year period). While there are always disturbed individuals in any group [including or maybe especially r.a.s :-) ], Vietnam vets are not the psychotic drug ***s which some people and movies portray them as. Can't you understand how angry Mr. Simmons must be at seeing this over and over again? Well, when you become dictator you can send your thought police out to haul him into jail, but until then he's certainly entitled to his opinions, no matter how crudely put. Just as you are, of course. I wish that he had chosen something a little more elegant, but I'm willing to chalk that one up to frustration. After 20+ years of hearing this same old venom, I'd be pretty angry too. But if you're on some crusade to clean up the language on USENET, then good luck...you've a long and difficult battle ahead of you. It does... maybe you should have read the next line I wrote which you separated into the next paragraph below..."And the same goes for Mark Abbot." (who was the one who insulted the vets) and it applies to you too. Everyone certainly has a right to their opinion, just as I have a right to disagree with theirs... and yours. My "so be it" isn't meant to claim that any and all opinions are valid or correct, however... its just that any idiot with a voice or a computer can spout whatever he wants to. And they usually do. But I can disagree and air my complaints. Never commented if it were in reasonable language? I'm not so sure about that...your first entry in this thread was... doubt. Rather than commenting on his language, you're implying that he was not a Vietnam vet. Now THAT would really***me off if I were him. As I said...you're certainly entitled to say whatever you want to and disagree with his choice of words or assertions. But it seems that you're dancing between criticism of his language and criticism of his past. Earlier in the thread you also belittled the conflict, and now you are taking Mr. Simmons to task when he uses words you think inappropriate. Which is it... if its just the language he uses, I'd tend to agree that it was a little harsh but I can understand his anger. If its something bigger or more about the fact that he was a Vietnam vet I would have to disagree but nothing constructive is likely to come of it. Nothing I could say is likely to change your mind, and I really don't care anyway at this point.

>Joe, some ISP feeds are not updated as often as others. >Therefore, what may appear to be old news to you is probably a fresh posting >to him. Yeah, sorry about that. Saw Scott's response downthread. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

Your battle is a waste of energy on the likes of the people with whom you debate (and that's precisely why I stopped responding when I did), but I appreciate your insight and thoughtfulness. Many thanks for your efforts to educate the ignorant. I'm surprised nobody has asked the inevitable question.... "Who is John Gault?" I gotta read that book again - over 40 years old and still relevant (if not more so) today. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2 http://www.paddedwall.org/igps2/igps2.html North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition http://www.paddedwall.org/igps2/igps2.html Super X Philes http://members.home.net/kap/superx/superx.html If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

"Ali" must be Muhammed Ali. That would make more sense, and would also show a stronger ant-Vietnam sentiment.

writes: What the HECK are you talking about?!? __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

writes:

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>If you did not harass me, don't pay attention. I say hi and I am >friendly, but if someone is a jerk to me and say so. >--------------------- >>What makes you think a 'Vet' is any different from the rest of >>society-where do you think they came from? Generally weak people are real >>brave when they don't have to confront you face-to-face. It also seems to >>me that you are calling people names and making threats of what you are >>going to do while using the WEB. Sort of like calling the kettle black >>isn't it. It's real easy when you don't have to worry about a***in >>your mouth! Why are you so different than the people you are complaining >>about? Paul (aVet and not hiding)

Well, since you spilled all this in a PUBLIC newsgroup, it's kinda hard to IGNORE... __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

writes: So?!? I'm sorry, but I don't see how ANY of this is relevant. Enlighten me, eh? Eldred(my real name) __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

writes: Uh, Steve? You're raving... __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>Having seen him dirsupt many other newsgroups, I'm afraid he's all too >serious. With regard to his illness, you can't fake Crohn's Disease, >the diagnosis is pretty accurate. Ok, I'll bite. What's Crohn's Disease? __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>> Pardon me, but weren't those vet's fighting for freedom of speech? >NO!---they were not fighting for freedom of speech----that was never in >jeopardy or an issue of vietnam that we went to war over. When was the >last time you heard "vietnam--the war for free speech". The US in fact >was never in direct jeopardy, and I personally objected to it, but >that's another story. It was a HUGE political war and nothing more, that >cost many good men their lives, and countless others there souls. That >war, NOT the men who fought in it, should be forgotten as quickly as >possible in my opinion. But first we must learn from the terrible >mistake that was made there. It left a bad taste in the mouth of the >entire world.

The war was stupid, IMO. The guys FIGHTING it were not. They risked their lives for our country, and for that I honor them. Yes, I *know* our country wasn't in danger, but you understand what I mean... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> Who did that and when? All I saw was someone calling someone else a > "shitstain". It's clear you have not read the thread and have gone off half***ed. I didn't invent it but you sure failed the test. Having heros like Ali, Jane and draft dodgers doesn't say a lot. Just what the hell did "superiors" have to do with Ali's situation-nothing! I liked Ali as a boxer but just what was his religious objections all about--He couldn't kill anyone but he sure as hell could beat the shit out of them for money--It was all about the all mighty dollar in the end but that's another story . Just how do you know what you would have done if you were a citizen of a country that was in the war and if you had been old enough. If you were 20 years older your whole attitude and values might be different. Isn't hindsight wonderful and convenient especially after 20+ years. Paul

Crohn's disease is a chronic, progressive disease affecting any portion of the digestive tract, extending from mouth to***. Deep ulcers, strictures, and fistulae (kind of like sores that erode through the wall of one organ and into another- in CD, to the skin, bladder, and *** most commonly) are hallmarks. It most commonly affects the distal ileum (25%) and/or colon (20%) (both 45%). Gross bleeding is uncommon, helping to distinguish it from ulcerative colitis. Severe and recurrent diarrhea, abdominal pain, and fever are usual symptoms. Systemic associations with arthritis, spondylitis, and uveitis also exist. In about 15% of cases it is indistinguishable from ulcerative colitis, but colonoscopy and/or biopsy can usually distinguish them. The cause is unknown, and may involve a viral agent, mycobacteria, dietary factors (carageenan, refined sugar), or increased intestinal permeability of unknown etiology (herediatry). It boils down to a chronically inflammed GI tract. Treatment of Crohn's mostly revolves around reducing the immune response (steroids, antimetabolites), but these *** have the side effect of reducing immunity. Surgery is not curative (as in UC) because of the progressive nature of the disease. see, ma? i told you this med school thing would come in handy some day.... mark Ok, I'll bite. What's Crohn's Disease?

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>See, now this kills me----you claim as well as others that Abbot had the >right to say anything he want, because of free speech, yet when someone >replies with something that offends you, what happens? People start >claiming he has no right to respond that way......so let me get this >straight, as long as people don't offend you with what they say, then >they have the right to say it, but if you don't agree with it, "shit >stain" being the example, then they don't have the right to say it. >Where does the freedom lie in that thinking?

Er, pot, kettle, black? You are doing exactly the same with your comments above. "Freedom of speech" does not carry any implication of freedom from the consequences of what you say. "Shitstain" is not even slightly justified. Cheers! John

On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:22:03 -0400, "Gault" >Nice dodge with a snotty rejoinder to boot, but that doesn't cut it. I had >read the entire thread, and you've done little to back up why your >noninvolvement and seeming ignorance of the conflict trump Mr. Simmon's >experience and judgement. I've seen little evidence of experience and judgement and my whole involvement in this thread has been based on the judgement of someone else as a "shitstain". I've yet to meet someone who meets or deserves that description, so perhaps my perception of the aforementioned judgement isn't as high as yours? I never admitted any such thing - what _I_ said was that I have never been asked to. I'm sure there were plenty of people of all nationalities in Vietnam, but few of them were at war. ANZACs are not my countrymen. Ali refers to the boxer. If you want to quote statistics just do so, there's no need to try and justify it by inventing an interest on my behalf. There are _many_ response I could make to the statistics you quoted, but this is hardly the place - nor is it at all related to the point. The fact that someone is or is not a vet is incidental, the fact that he uses that to justify calling someone a shitstain is. Thank you - _EXACTLY_ my point. _I_ object to someone calling someone else a shitstain then trying to jusify it. As far as I can see you object to me doing so - that's fine too, but it doesn't change my opinion. In correspondence of any sort I respond in accordance with that which has preceded me. Not so - my first and only comment was on the language. I have no problem with vets in any way whatsoever, nor have I participated at all in the strange discussion growing up regarding welfare scroungers and the like. Vietnam had a truckload of problems, but from here it seems the vast majority of these were political and the vets ended up the losers all around, being forced to give up some of the best years of their life, and suffering some backlash on their return. Whether or not I (or anyone else) agrees with the war has no bearing on vets - they were simply people doing a difficult job to the best of their ability. Problems with the war are best directed to the hand that moved the soldiers around, but that seems to be often overlooked. Cheers! John

>It's clear you have not read the thread and have gone off half***ed. That is only clear within your mind. I doubt I would have failed anything you came up with. Who's Jane? To call Ali a "draft dodger" does say a lot - it says a lot about you and your perceptions. It's another opinion. I don't think it was at all - Ali's stand was about the fact that as a black (he wasn't considered a full citizen of the country (in his opinion) but was expected to die like one. I think I would have objected to that too. How do I know? I postulate. I estimate. I consider and I speculate. You can't "know", but I can certainly think about how something like that would affect me. And whatever answer I come up with about what I would do is infinitely more accurate than what you tell me about what I would do. How can you try to tell me I'm wrong in my estimation of how I would feel and what I would do? Crazy. Cheers! John

> That is only clear within your mind. And everyone else that read the thread. But you did! Another classic example of you failing. I'd didn't call Ali a draft dodger! Yes and I know a lot of Blacks that I served with then and since that didn't and don't support his position. Ali's stand had very little to do with religion and being Black, those were convenient issues, he didn't even want to serve in the military in any capacity because it would interfere with his boxing career. Very easy to say by someone who grew up in another generation. I'd didn't say you were wrong (you failed again) I said you might have had a different attitude -and you just might have- but now you have that wonderful hindsight that makes us all so damn knowing. Your kids will have different attitudes about things than you just because of the age difference and current events. We are never going to agree on something that happened so long ago--that effected one of us directly and the other not at all--that involved my country and countrymen and not yours--especially since I was a professional soldier for 26 years and you have never even served your country for even one day. Now this is "Nuts". Just what the hell does all this have to do with sim racing anyway--Beats the Shit Out of Me. Paul

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> >See, now this kills me----you claim as well as others that Abbot had the > >right to say anything he want, because of free speech, yet when someone > >replies with something that offends you, what happens? People start > >claiming he has no right to respond that way......so let me get this > >straight, as long as people don't offend you with what they say, then > >they have the right to say it, but if you don't agree with it, "shit > >stain" being the example, then they don't have the right to say it. > >Where does the freedom lie in that thinking? > Er, pot, kettle, black? You are doing exactly the same with your > comments above. > "Freedom of speech" does not carry any implication of freedom from the > consequences of what you say. "Shitstain" is not even slightly > justified. > Cheers! > John

I don't see where I(being the pot I assume) called any kettle black. I was pointing out the fact that you didn't like that someone called another person a shit stain for what you consider no reason. So YOU said they had no right to do so. All I said was if one person has a "right" to label vets as nuts, then vets have a "right" to label that person as a shit stain. Simple and fair for everyone. Don't insult people, then get offended when it comes right back to you. I never once indicated someone didn't have a right to their opinion. I just disagree with yours, that's all. Not trying to claim you don't have a "right" to it.

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> >> Pardon me, but weren't those vet's fighting for freedom of speech? > >NO!---they were not fighting for freedom of speech----that was never in > >jeopardy or an issue of vietnam that we went to war over. When was the > >last time you heard "vietnam--the war for free speech". The US in fact > >was never in direct jeopardy, and I personally objected to it, but > >that's another story. It was a HUGE political war and nothing more, that > >cost many good men their lives, and countless others there souls. That > >war, NOT the men who fought in it, should be forgotten as quickly as > >possible in my opinion. But first we must learn from the terrible > >mistake that was made there. It left a bad taste in the mouth of the > >entire world. > The war was stupid, IMO. The guys FIGHTING it were not. They risked their > lives for our country, and for that I honor them. Yes, I *know* our country > wasn't in danger, but you understand what I mean... > Eldred

I hope you aren't under the impression I think those fighting the war were stupid. I never implied that, in fact look at the line that reads "That war, NOT the men who fought in it, should be forgotten as quickly as possible in my opinion." Perhaps I just misinterpreted your post, or you did mine.

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>I don't see where I(being the pot I assume) called any kettle black. I >was pointing out the fact that you didn't like that someone called >another person a shit stain for what you consider no reason. So YOU said >they had no right to do so. All I said was if one person has a "right" >to label vets as nuts, then vets have a "right" to label that person as >a shit stain. Simple and fair for everyone. Don't insult people, then >get offended when it comes right back to you. I never once indicated >someone didn't have a right to their opinion. I just disagree with >yours, that's all. Not trying to claim you don't have a "right" to it.

Which is precisely what you objected to in my post. I took objection to someone being called a shitstain - no big deal, just a flippant response. I then received your diatribe telling me how wrong I was to do that. Pot, kettle, black. Cheers! John

>And everyone else that read the thread. A representative sample of....ONE. Just what I expected. In your befuddled mind, perhaps. You did. You also didn't tell me where you got "Jane" from. Your opinion - not one shared by anyone I've ever heard comment on the subject but I'll respect your right to think it. How do you know it's very easy to say if you're not from my generation? You're postulating, estimating - all the other things mankind is equipped to do. What else do you expect someone to do? As do you. I might have a different attitude, but given the information at my disposal now my impression is as I stated. I'm not wrong, I'm not right - it's an opinion. Of course, and I hope I will remain open-minded enough not to follow your example of presuming them wrong because they have the advantage of hindsight, lack experience or whatever. Serving your country comes in many forms, and I've served my country every day for the last 15 years. Not every soldier who went to Vietnam served the U.S. to the same degree, indeed some of them committed horrific crimes and were a disgrace to their country and their uniform. Serving your country for 26 years is far from a guarantee of a reasoned and valid opinion. Cheers! John

jane fonda, i'm sure.

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> >I don't see where I(being the pot I assume) called any kettle black. I > >was pointing out the fact that you didn't like that someone called > >another person a shit stain for what you consider no reason. So YOU said > >they had no right to do so. All I said was if one person has a "right" > >to label vets as nuts, then vets have a "right" to label that person as > >a shit stain. Simple and fair for everyone. Don't insult people, then > >get offended when it comes right back to you. I never once indicated > >someone didn't have a right to their opinion. I just disagree with > >yours, that's all. Not trying to claim you don't have a "right" to it. > Which is precisely what you objected to in my post. I took objection > to someone being called a shitstain - no big deal, just a flippant > response. I then received your diatribe telling me how wrong I was to > do that. > Pot, kettle, black. > Cheers! > John

See, this is where communication is lacking in terms of text only NGs, and not being able to talk "face-to-face" in order to get full meaning of ones conversation. I wasn't telling you that you were wrong for having your opinions John, in fact I welcome them--celebrate diversity--. What I objected to was that you claimed he had "no right" to his. Your exact phrase was--- "No-one has any right to call anyone a shitstain for expressing an opinion." My point is they have EVERY right to call them a shit stain, or whatever they decide to call them. Whether or not you or I agree with his choice of words is irrelavent, he still has a right to them. I never told you that you didn't have a right to the comment that you made. I merely stated that I thought it was wrong, not with the fact that you objected that he called him a "shit stain" but with the aspect of "no-one has any right" The m***issue is not the subject here. Personally I don't like the guys choice of words either, but I do believe he can say them all he wants. And he shouldn't be told he doesn't "have the right to them". Referring to his choice of words, not his opinions. And besides, that's between him, and the so called "shit stain" to settle. Not for us to get invloved in.

John Wallace wrote If you go back and read the origional post you would know what was really said. Your childish name calling doesn't change the fact that you did. Read the post again, it ended in "and draft dodgers". Jane Fonda So my experiences are invalid and all the people I have come in contact with are wrong and you know hords of people that say we are wrong. Now that's just swell.. It is just logical that different times and experiences shape different attitudes. Thats the point, you would not have had the information you have now. You are making up things now--no where did I ever mention or imply that you "WERE Wrong" I simply stated that time and experiences change attitudes. Yep and there were many civilians who commit horrific crimes and are a disgrace. Just why are you grasping for straws bringing up the Mi Lia incident. What does that have to do with anything? If you are trying to insult me you will have to get up a hell of a lot earlier in the morning. It didn't work, but I find your response insulting. I should have known it would come to this after your description of my " befuddled mind". Up until now I had some respect for your opinions posted on this news group but now I have "0". I know you don't care so don't bother to respond.. You win, live in your self wonderfulness and I will continue to be "befuddled" as you described me and my mind. Sort of like calling someone shit stain(pot calling the kettle black,buckoo. Paul.

How would you feel if it DID work? Double-secret insulted? ~daxe

>"No-one has any right to call anyone a shitstain for expressing an >opinion." >My point is they have EVERY right to call them a shit stain, or whatever >they decide to call them. Of course they have a right to call them a shitstain, but what I said was they have no right to call them that for expressing their opinion - just as it is their right, so they should recognise the right of the other. There we disagree, if you post something in a public newsgroup... :-) Cheers! John

>So my experiences are invalid and all the people I have come in contact with are wrong and you >know hords of people that say we are wrong. Now that's just swell.. In my opinion and experience, yes. You believe the reverse to be true. And that yours are somehow more valid and meaningful than mine, this said without any knowledge of me whatsoever. No, that's not logical at all. But as to how that information would shape and change my attitude we have no idea - you can't say how any given experience would change anyone but yourself. Clearly not everyone left Vietnam with the same feelings so what we do know is that it affects different people in different ways, as does any experience. To say that my perception of how it would change me is wrong is simply nonsense. My perception may not be right but it is equally not wrong. The implication being that my estimation of how a given experience would have affected me was flawed. I have never HEARD of the Mi Lia incident, and I hardly think that it, whatever it is, was the only atrocity ever committed in Vietnam (if indeed it was an atrocity). The point is not whether soldiers or civilians commit crimes, the point is that "serving your country" is not in itself a laudable or honourable thing. Oh grow up. The above is a statement of fact, not an insult in any way shape or form. If you choose to interpret it as such then I suggest that is your problem. I don't post my opinions here to gain the respect of others, I post them because they are what I believe in and in the spirit of discussion and exchange of ideas. The loss of whatever regard you held my opinions in is not an issue, although of course I'm sorry you choose to react like that. Cheers! John

>Crohn's disease is a chronic, progressive disease affecting any portion of >the digestive tract, <snipped a lot of painful-sounding stuff> Ugh. Sorry I *asked*... I wouldn't wish that on my worst ENEMY... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>> The war was stupid, IMO. The guys FIGHTING it were not. They risked their >> lives for our country, and for that I honor them. Yes, I *know* our >country >> wasn't in danger, but you understand what I mean... >> Eldred >I hope you aren't under the impression I think those fighting the war >were stupid. I never implied that, in fact look at the line that reads >"That war, NOT the men who fought in it, should be forgotten as quickly >as possible in my opinion." Perhaps I just misinterpreted your post, or >you did mine.

No, I didn't think you meant those fighting the war were stupid. Apologies if it seemed that way. Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

You won the name calling and derogatory remarks contest, I will not stoop to your standards. You win, I'm out of this discussion. Paul > Cheers! > John

On Wed, 07 Jul 1999 10:16:21 GMT, http://aj.encyclopedia.com/articles/08921.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/amex/vietnam/trenches/mylai.html -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

Good grief, then you really don't know too much about that conflict then, do you? While My Lai was just a single incident in the war, how could you possibly have not heard of it, especially when you were arguing with a vet of that conflict? Now I think that it is YOUR opinions which are based on Oliver Stone movies. Or is it just due to youth and lack of information? Are you just some 16 year old kid mouthing off here or something? I think you've shown your hand here. First you've held up Muhammed Ali as a hero when you don't seem to even know too much about the war that he was protesting, and now you're saying that service to land and country is not an honorable thing. I think that we have a pretty clear picture of you now. Lots of good men and women have died and endured hardship for their nation, which includes people like you. Good heavens... now I'm becoming MUCH more sympathetic to Mr. Simmon's original choice of words.

Hey John---you totally contradict yourself in the same sentence So do they have the right, or not? First you say they do, then you say they don't. Or is it that we can call someone a "shit stain" as long as it isn't AFTER they expressed their opinion, only before? I just don't get the logic. It again points in the direction of "if someone gets offended---then you can't say that". Not a good example of freedom if you ask me. Again, I should have myself more clear perhaps. When I mean they should solve it between themselves, I mean it's a personal battle of words between the 2 of them, and perhaps we should leave it to be battled on by them. You are correct in thinking that if they bring it to a public forum, then they should expect the public to get involved, but perhaps, looking at it now, the whole thing was better left alone in the first place, don't you think?

> You won the name calling and derogatory remarks contest, >I will not stoop to your standards. _POOR_ excuse to give up a discussion. In this thread I have never dished out any more than I have received, so if you're going to leave at least admit to yourself why you're doing it even if you don't do so publically. Cheers! John

>>I have never HEARD of the Mi Lia incident, >http://aj.encyclopedia.com/articles/08921.html >http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/amex/vietnam/trenches/mylai.html Thanks for the info, but I should probably have added that I'm happy to continue my life without knowing the details of the Mi Lai incident even now that I have heard of it :-) Cheers! John

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:26:36 -0400, "Gault" >Good grief, then you really don't know too much about that conflict then, do >you? While My Lai was just a single incident in the war, how could you >possibly have not heard of it, especially when you were arguing with a vet >of that conflict? You probably haven't heard of flat zones but I wouldn't presume that to mean you know nothing of computers. My knowledge of Vietnam is broad - although in the U.S. it is a generational issue it's really not a big deal at all here in the U.K. My perceptions are based upon everything I have experienced, and Olly Stone movies are an inescapable part of that. As to the others I'm sure you can make, or gave made, up your own mind on those. Oh for heaven's sake, please not the classic Usenet "non-response". READ what I wrote - "...is not IN ITSELF a laudable...".. That is a very different meaning from the words you are trying to insert into my mouth. Answer what I wrote, not what you wish I had. If you do then it's the wrong one. Don't be bashful now, say what you mean. Cheers! John

>Hey John---you totally contradict yourself in the same sentence No, you are just unable to understand it. No, it's certainly been a voyage of foot-stamping, petulance and morale crusading around here - quite an eye-opener in many ways. Probably best left alone, <rhetoric> but then if I choose to take exception to unjustified abuse and people take exception to my exception, what's a guy to do? </rhetoric> Cheers! John

> >Hey John---you totally contradict yourself in the same sentence > No, you are just unable to understand it. I understood it perfectly clear. You implied that one person has the right to an "unjustified" opinion----"all vietnam vets are nuts"------- or something to that effect. But another doesn't have a right to an "unjustified" opinion----"your a shit stain for thinking all vietnam vets are nuts", or again, something to that effect. BOTH have equal right to their respective opinions. Justified or not. Admit it John, you don't like one of them, so you feel they should not be able to say it. Plain and simple.

On Thu, 08 Jul 1999 02:30:07 GMT,

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>> >Hey John---you totally contradict yourself in the same sentence >> No, you are just unable to understand it. >I understood it perfectly clear. You implied that one person has the >right to an "unjustified" opinion----"all vietnam vets are nuts"------- >or something to that effect. But another doesn't have a right to an >"unjustified" opinion----"your a shit stain for thinking all vietnam >vets are nuts", or again, something to that effect. BOTH have equal >right to their respective opinions. Justified or not. Admit it John, you >don't like one of them, so you feel they should not be able to say it. >Plain and simple.

I like John, but it is apparent to me that he has never suffered conscription by his country into a war that fell out of popular favor. Those vets were doing their job. Some of them, frustrated by the horror of the situation, the pathetic rules of engagement, inept leadership and the ***y-trap deaths of their buddies took matters into their own hands, from time to time. They just wanted to survive and to come home to their families. Period. I have nothing but respect for them and what they had to do. I would have been there myself, but was discharged in 1964. John, please don't second-guess the actions of -normal- Americans when faced with their own life and death during the Vietnam war. I'm afraid that you simply don't know what you're talking about. Thanks. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

>> No, you are just unable to understand it. >I understood it perfectly clear. Believe me, you didn't. You may think you did but I can assure you that you're mistaken. Cheers! John

>I like John, but it is apparent to me that he has never suffered >conscription by his country into a war that fell out of popular favor. I would say that such a description probably covers the vast majority of people young/mid-age people in the world today, particularly in Europe where I live. I'm not unusual in that. This thread started with a clear-cut black and white bit of verbal abuse, meandered around with people trying to second guess what _I_ would do if _I_ had been in Vietnam, and arrived at the current point. At no time did I second guess the actions of -normal- Americans - what I did was to state (the clear fact) that serving your country does not automatically qualify you as a good person, and that some (unspecified percentage) of the Americans serving there perpetrated some horrific atrocities. If you can tell me that the above statement is wrong and that I don't what I am talking about I will gladly listen. However please DON'T misinterpret that comment as "all vets committed atrocities" as that is not what it means. It was an isolated statement designed to illustrate that serving in the army implies nothing about you. You may be a volunteer, you may be drafted, you may be a Green beret, you may have served in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps - serving in the army tells next to nothing about a person - that was the only point of the statement. I have a lot of respect for Ali for standing up for his opinions - I also mentioned that I have a lot of respect for people who went and fought for their country. The only way to talk about a group of people is to generalise, and yet war brings out such extremes of emotion that comments made in that manner can only be understood if people listen to them in that manner - there are ALWAYS going to be exceptions which certainly shouldn't be considered as personal slights. Cheers! John

On Thu, 08 Jul 1999 08:10:01 GMT, John, I am taking the liberty of focusing on this one, misguided issue to make a point. I hope you don't take offense. Cassius Clay (M.Ali) was -never- a Muslim until he was served with his draft papers. Did you know that? Also, I don't have too much sympathy for people who want the protection of their country and system of government without accepting their share of responsibility in the country's time of need. If everyone had taken Ali's 'heroic' approach in WWII, you would be sprechen German instead of speaking with that Scottish brogue I am sure that you cherish. It's time to stop and think about this, John. It was a bad time in the history of the world, but normal, everyday people fought in it. They weren't some sort of military satan. None of them. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

> >Having seen him dirsupt many other newsgroups, I'm afraid he's all too > >serious. With regard to his illness, you can't fake Crohn's Disease, > >the diagnosis is pretty accurate. I have no idea what the rest of this thread is about, but as a PSA, I just thought I'd pip in and say that my father-in-law was previously diagnosed with Crohn's disease, but it turned out to be ciliac sprew (sp?) - aka gluten intolerance. He's eliminated wheat from his diet and has been recovering quite nicely.

>I have no idea what the rest of this thread is about, but as a PSA, I >just thought I'd pip in and say that my father-in-law was previously >diagnosed with Crohn's disease, but it turned out to be ciliac sprew >(sp?) - aka gluten intolerance. He's eliminated wheat from his diet and >has been recovering quite nicely. Good point, that is one of the false reads. I have an alergy to gluten myself (not as severe as ciliac). You're dad probably knows this already, but there is an incredible variety of gluten-free alternative baked goods available now, much more than there was even just five years ago. At specialty health food stores I can get bread, hamburger buns, pizza crusts, donuts, bagels, cookies, etc - all made with rice flour. Your diet doesn't have to be boring just because you can't eat flour. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

Ed Bain schrieb:

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> On Thu, 08 Jul 1999 08:10:01 GMT, > >I have a lot of respect for Ali for standing up for his opinions - > John, I am taking the liberty of focusing on this one, misguided > issue to make a point. I hope you don't take offense. > Cassius Clay (M.Ali) was -never- a Muslim until he was served > with his draft papers. Did you know that? > Also, I don't have too much sympathy for people who want > the protection of their country and system of government > without accepting their share of responsibility in the > country's time of need.

So for enjoying basic human rights you HAVE to keep your mouth shut in times of need? Any need? Hmm, if more Germans would have taken Ali's 'heroic' approach, we MAYBE... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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> >I have no idea what the rest of this thread is about, but as a PSA, I > >just thought I'd pip in and say that my father-in-law was previously > >diagnosed with Crohn's disease, but it turned out to be ciliac sprew > >(sp?) - aka gluten intolerance. He's eliminated wheat from his diet and > >has been recovering quite nicely. > Good point, that is one of the false reads. I have an alergy to gluten > myself (not as severe as ciliac). You're dad probably knows this > already, but there is an incredible variety of gluten-free alternative > baked goods available now, much more than there was even just five > years ago. At specialty health food stores I can get bread, hamburger > buns, pizza crusts, donuts, bagels, cookies, etc - all made with rice > flour. Your diet doesn't have to be boring just because you can't eat > flour.

He's discovering all this now. Since finally being properly diagnosed about 3 months ago, he's gained 25 pounds and feels better than he has in ages.

In article "Mark Stahl" > >Crohn's disease is a chronic, progressive disease affecting any portion of disapointed because now my crohn is much worse. I was told by the head of the Gatrology depatment, I'm stuck using only narcotics sach as, LOMOTIL, OXYCONTON 10 mg and PERCOCET 12 of each every day. As a result of removing most og my illium. Has anybody had the same experiment with this problem? My doctor supossed to be one of the best in Canada Dr. Fred Saibil at Sunny brook hospital. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

>John, I am taking the liberty of focusing on this one, misguided >issue to make a point. I hope you don't take offense. >Cassius Clay (M.Ali) was -never- a Muslim until he was served >with his draft papers. Did you know that? Yes I did know that. I have also heard that he held the beliefs but didn't talk about it publically until he was forced to. Bollocks? Convenient timing? Perhaps. The point is that "Ali" is simply an example - the concept is of people standing up for something they personally belief in - not standing up and fighting for something their government deems politically correct to be "believing in" at that time. Each can be equally laudable in it's own right. I hardly think the U.S. was in any danger over Vietnam. I would fight to protect the U.K. against an invasion or whatever if necessary, but if my government decided it wanted to protect Peru against an invasion by Uruguay then it would take a LOT of persuasion to get me there. In any case this responsibility comes not only in the form of fighting but in the fact of paying thousands of pounds in tax every year, not defrauding the country out of money, observing laws etc etc. If everyone had taken that approach then presumably the Germans wouldn't have gone to war and the first place. Nor would we have had to bankrupt our country paying our "allies" for the assistance they so obligingly sold to us. "None of them"? So you are telling me that _every_ soldier who went to Vietnam behaved impeccably, none of the people in Vietnam were treated badly, no looting, no drug smuggling, no raping of local woman -NOTHING like that AT ALL? Every war in history has had it's share of atrocities and I cannot believe you could assert otherwise. You can't say that no soldier behaved badly just as you can't say that every soldier behaved badly. They are just people like anyone else, with a normal distribution of personalities - the pressure and situation would, if anything, serve to accentuate that. Cheers! John

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:02:48 GMT, Hey John, listen very closely..... *** you. *plonk* -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

What took you so long! I gave up on his halfbaked, twisted fact approach to this discussion days ago. Paul

Oh, for crying out loud, at least don't put that silly "Cheers" signature on your post after saying a thing like that. And guys, take the damn discussion to somewhere else. Nafi Coker

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>If everyone had taken that approach then presumably the Germans >wouldn't have gone to war and the first place. Nor would we have had >to bankrupt our country paying our "allies" for the assistance they so >obligingly sold to us. >Cheers! >John

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:29:34 GMT, Are you the usenet police, Nafi?

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>>If everyone had taken that approach then presumably the Germans >>wouldn't have gone to war and the first place. Nor would we have had >>to bankrupt our country paying our "allies" for the assistance they so >>obligingly sold to us. >>Cheers! >>John

-- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

No. Regarding the use of this specialized newsgroup, I am just stating my own opinion, that however interesting it may happen to be to some, I am not interested in seeing totally irrelevant threads going on forever. Yeah, yeah, all that ***about "don't read if you don't like it" nonsense. I believe this NG should be limited to discussion of things related to "auto.simulators." Not that it will stop those having all their social life consisting of this newsgroup :) Nafi Coker

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>On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:29:34 GMT, >>Oh, for crying out loud, at least don't put that silly "Cheers" signature >>on your post after saying a thing like that. >>And guys, take the damn discussion to somewhere else. >>Nafi Coker >Are you the usenet police, Nafi?

You got a good point, Nafi. Back in '68 probably the most often heard comment about what we were getting out of the 'Nam was "*** it...it don't mean nothin'.....". These guys in this ras thread mostly mean well. I do hope they don't bust up any friendships over something they can't do anything about except kick and scream. They need to stick to their principles, and do what they think right when it needs to happen again. I did. I served. I resent. I don't hate anyone. It Is Over! Let it be (especially in our escape from reality, R.A.S.). So there. > No. Regarding the use of this specialized newsgroup, I am just stating my > own opinion, that however interesting it may happen to be to some, I am > not interested in seeing totally irrelevant threads going on forever. > Yeah, yeah, all that ***about "don't read if you don't like it" nonsense. > I believe this NG should be limited to discussion of things related to > "auto.simulators." Not that it will stop those having all their social

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> life consisting of this newsgroup :) > Nafi Coker > >On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:29:34 GMT, > >>Oh, for crying out loud, at least don't put that silly "Cheers"

signature

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> >>on your post after saying a thing like that. > >>And guys, take the damn discussion to somewhere else. > >>Nafi Coker > >Are you the usenet police, Nafi?

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Ed Bain schrieb:

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> On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:02:48 GMT, > >>If everyone had taken Ali's 'heroic' approach in WWII, > >>you would be sprechen German instead of speaking with > >>that Scottish brogue I am sure that you cherish. > >If everyone had taken that approach then presumably the Germans > >wouldn't have gone to war and the first place. Nor would we have had > >to bankrupt our country paying our "allies" for the assistance they so > >obligingly sold to us. > Hey John, listen very closely..... > *** you. > *plonk*

Please, Mr. Ed, don't start this shit here, too. If you can't handle someone's oppinion, stop reading his posts. I don't really need to know if you do this, so... Did I just hear another plonk? l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:28:07 +0200,

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>Ed Bain schrieb: >> On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:02:48 GMT, >> >>If everyone had taken Ali's 'heroic' approach in WWII, >> >>you would be sprechen German instead of speaking with >> >>that Scottish brogue I am sure that you cherish. >> >If everyone had taken that approach then presumably the Germans >> >wouldn't have gone to war and the first place. Nor would we have had >> >to bankrupt our country paying our "allies" for the assistance they so >> >obligingly sold to us. >> Hey John, listen very closely..... >> *** you. >> *plonk* >Please, Mr. Ed, don't start this shit here, too. If you can't handle >someone's oppinion, stop reading his posts. I don't really need to >know if you do this, so...

When his 'opinion' denigrates the memory of several members of my family that died to help prevent HIS country from falling under Nazi-ism, nah I will respond any way I please. Comprende`? Yes, you did. A nice plonk for you, as well. *plonk* -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

>When his 'opinion' denigrates the memory of several members of my >family that died to help prevent HIS country from falling under >Nazi-ism, nah I will respond any way I please. When several members of MY family die while waiting for America to stop making money from Nazi-ism and actually start fighting it then it's hardly surprising. No-one "denigrated" your family members - you need to learn to differentiate between collective generalisation and individual personal critique. FYI your country did nothing to stop my country falling under Nazi-ism other than sell and profit from those war materials which would be sold anyway. The U.K.'s deepest and darkest hour was in 1939/1940 - two years prior to the U.S. waking up when prodded by the Japanese. If you choose to ignore those facts which history lays in front of you don't start blaming your tantrums on me. Cheers! John PS - Is it just me or is this WAY off-topic from the original off-topic discussion. PPS - "*** you" and "Plonk" really don't come across too well other than as a "throwing your toys out of your pram" type response.

It's an indication that as far as I'm concerned this is a discussion, not an argument. If I'm pissed off with someone or angry with what they said I omit it, but there's no animosity on my part in this discussion - I respect all opinions offered. Cheers! John

Please don't feed this troll, guys. I know its tempting, but its pretty darn pointless.

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:39:45 -0400, "Gault" >Please don't feed this troll, guys. I know its tempting, but its pretty >darn pointless. This is no troll, unless I am being trolled (a point I hadn't considered until you mentioned it right enough....!) Cheers! John

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:39:45 -0400, Who are you talking about? You quoted no one. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

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> On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:39:45 -0400, > >Please don't feed this troll, guys. I know its tempting, but its pretty > >darn pointless. > Who are you talking about? You quoted no one.

Sorry, Ed, I didn't mean you. I was referring to the poster who seems to think that the US was too slow in fighting the Nazis in Europe, but out of line in fighting Communists in Asia.

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:40:35 -0400,

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>> On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:39:45 -0400, >> >Please don't feed this troll, guys. I know its tempting, but its pretty >> >darn pointless. >> Who are you talking about? You quoted no one. >Sorry, Ed, I didn't mean you. I was referring to the poster who seems to >think that the US was too slow in fighting the Nazis in Europe, but out of >line in fighting Communists in Asia.

O.K. .. :) -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

Maybe it would be more helpful if you guys would attribute the actions taken and not taken to *individuals* and power-blocs rather than to states. That way this thread would look a lot less like a "my country=good guy, your country=bad guy" slog. After all, I hardly think either the U.S. or the U.K. would fair too well if we look at "their" behavior on the world stage over the last two centuries. If you're going to start invoking History and Truth, then provide better evidence. Cheers to you both. --DK

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> >When his 'opinion' denigrates the memory of several members of my > >family that died to help prevent HIS country from falling under > >Nazi-ism, nah I will respond any way I please. > When several members of MY family die while waiting for America to > stop making money from Nazi-ism and actually start fighting it then > it's hardly surprising. No-one "denigrated" your family members - you > need to learn to differentiate between collective generalisation and > individual personal critique. > FYI your country did nothing to stop my country falling under Nazi-ism > other than sell and profit from those war materials which would be > sold anyway. The U.K.'s deepest and darkest hour was in 1939/1940 - > two years prior to the U.S. waking up when prodded by the Japanese. > If you choose to ignore those facts which history lays in front of you > don't start blaming your tantrums on me. > Cheers! > John > PS - Is it just me or is this WAY off-topic from the original > off-topic discussion. > PPS - "*** you" and "Plonk" really don't come across too well other > than as a "throwing your toys out of your pram" type response.

You're friendly with the local crack dealer perhaps. Please get with reality M

On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:42:16 -0500, "david karr" >Maybe it would be more helpful if you guys would attribute the actions taken >and not taken to *individuals* and power-blocs rather than to states. That >way this thread would look a lot less like a "my country=good guy, your >country=bad guy" slog. After all, I hardly think either the U.S. or the >U.K. would fair too well if we look at "their" behavior on the world stage >over the last two centuries. Fully agree there - heck the U.K. invented concentration camps, but the Nazi regime is associated with them. Discussions such as these are easily taken out of context - a "country" is defined by the decisions taken by the government of that time, not by the populace as a whole (albeit that the government are the elected representatives of the populace in many cases). I think a lot of disagreements come from taking statements encompassing a situation as a whole and applying to involved individuals - that will almost never work. Cheers! John

ROTFLOL! -Larry > The original WUTH (Whining Usenet Troll from > Hell - tm)

Has he discussed using MS Contin or Oramorph SR instead of these short-acting meds? -Larry

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> > I had surgery, some 34 months ago. I was very > disapointed because now my crohn is much worse. I > was told by the head of the Gatrology depatment, > I'm stuck using only narcotics sach as, LOMOTIL, > OXYCONTON 10 mg and PERCOCET 12 of each every day. > As a result of removing most og my illium. Has > anybody had the same experiment with this problem? > My doctor supossed to be one of the best in Canada > Dr. Fred Saibil at Sunny brook hospital. > > Eldred

Hey! Now you just back away with that thing! -Larry > Bring on the sigmoidoscope!!!

Methinks you are gonna regret that post :( -Larry > He must be a Vietnam Vet. > I learned a long time ago it doesn't do any good to argue with nuts. Just > agree politely with them and they will go away.

Oh, man. Yet another thread on this? -Larry

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> I do not understand how people can be Vets, fight in wars, but when > it comes to the Internet and news groups they send threatening > messages to people, refuse to give a real name and address, and stalk > people around the Internet and news groups. What I find that's really > cowardly is they chase and harass people that are sick and disabled, > use phony identity, and send people threats telling them not to visit > news groups and post messages. Come on out you cowards, show who you > are! I will expose anyone that sends me E-mail that is harassment or > abusive and/ or says lies about me, and cowers behind a phony name > and/or address. > ================== > Steven S. Palmer > http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/4001/ > http://www.primenet.com/~ssp/ > http://members.tripod.com/~stevenscott/ > ----------------------------------

Can we PLEASE do this somewhere other than the RAS newsgroup? PLEASE? -Larry

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> I do not understand how people can be Vets, fight in wars, but when > it comes to the Internet and news groups they send threatening > messages to people, refuse to give a real name and address, and stalk > people around the Internet and news groups. What I find that's really > cowardly is they chase and harass people that are sick and disabled, > use phony identity, and send people threats telling them not to visit > news groups and post messages. Come on out you cowards, show who you > are! I will expose anyone that sends me E-mail that is harassment or > abusive and/ or says lies about me, and cowers behind a phony name > and/or address. > ================== > Steven S. Palmer > http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/4001/ > http://www.primenet.com/~ssp/ > http://members.tripod.com/~stevenscott/ > ----------------------------------

Oh, geez... -Larry > -------- > You have been reported to your ISP for abuse/harassment, Harassing a > person because of Disability and/or Perceived disability is against > the ISP contract and against Federal Law. > -------------------------

Uh, oh. You just 'spammed' us! :) -Larry

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> Steven, this free program will help you track the source of the email: > http://www.blighty.com/products/spade/spade110.exe > This will give you some pointers on using it: > http://www.blighty.com/products/spade/help/ > This will give you some info on tracking the sender: > http://www.blighty.com/products/spade/help/d_docs.htm > Also, our Tools page will get you LOTS of info: > http://www.sputum.com/cns/tools.html > Good luck! > -- > * rrevved at mindspring dot com > * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. > * http://www.cabal.net > * http://www.sputum.com

Uh, your ISP could care less if you post off topic in a Newsgroup. I assure you they have _better_ things to worry about. -Larry > Some coward tells my ISP I posted off topic here. I have helped people > and contributed to this group over the years, and some coward runs off > to tell my ISP I am off topic. Come on out coward(s). > ==================

I think we are all so incredibly amazed at the fact that this thread even exists that we can't _help_ but add to it. :) There's the signpost up ahead. Next stop, the Twilight Zone... -Larry > What does this stupid rant have to do with sim racing? Stick to the newsgroup > topics please. As it has been said, " Paranoia will destroy ya!!"