Grand Prix (the movie)

Finally I got to see 'Grand Prix' last night in it's entirety for the first time. I have a couple of questions and comments though. I realize it was mostly (if not all) actual race coverage, but man, back in those days did they really just let people stand around on the side of the track wherever they wanted to? And during the crash scenes at Monoco and Monza, track workers and rescue personnel would run across the track right in front of and behind cars going full speed. Unbeliveable!!! A question I had was about Monza. Since this movie was about the '66 season, I was astonished at the banked sections there. Since those banking sections are not in GPL, does that mean they ceased driving on that section in real life for the '67 season? Also, I would like to see a map of the layout used for that Monza race in '66. I have no clue where they were going (I did see that the banked section eventually crosses over the track at the long back-stretch area tho.) Finally, I have had GPL since it came out, but it never really caught on with me. I have been wanting to have someone in R.A.S. explain to me why it is so popular. But I tell ya, after watching that movie, I think I understand it now. I think I also need to explore the online playing of it as well. -Jeff

Pretty much! It reached a peak at Mexico in 1970 when the crowd quite literally lined the track the whole way round, sitting on the kerbs etc... The Monza banking was only used in GP The Movie for dramatic reasons. It was last used for F1 in 1961. The layout was quite complex. The cars would do a full lap of the road course, and then veer right when they came back on to the main straight, onto the banked oval, which exited back out onto the road course for them to begin the lap again. -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 ________________________________________________________________________________ "There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" (Calvin & Hobbes)

Does anyone have a map of the banked monza? Andre

Have a look at http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/ There's bound to be one there. -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 ________________________________________________________________________________ "There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" (Calvin & Hobbes)

Jeff..... Yes, in those days we were allowed to stand as close to the track as the movie depicts. The banked Monza section was last used for a GP in 1961. The last Formula to race on it was the 1500cc type. The 3-litre cars have never had a GP on the banked section of the circuit.

There's a great photo in Rainer Schleglemilch's book "Portraits of the '60s--Formula 1" (pp. 155-156) of the 1962 Belgian GP at Spa. There's a big crowd sitting *on* a brick wall at the bottom of the hill going into Eau Rouge, just inches from the track. No fences, no barriers with the Hill and Rodriguez Ferraris screaming right at them. Amazing! (Great book, BTW.)

Yes, and they must have had a different attitude back then because they used to lose a few spectators in addition to a couple of drivers per year. Phil Hill won the title in 1961 after his teammate, Von Trips, crashed at Monza, killing himself and a number of spectators. Dan Gurney also killed a spectator in a mishap at Spa, remarking afterwards "This is a cruel sport". In the early 60's, the drivers did not even use seat belts, figuring that being thrown out was slightly less risky than staying inside a rigid, cartwheeling wreck. As someone already mentioned, if Europe was bad, the lack of crowd control at venues like Mexico and Argentina was unbelievable! -- Doug G Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

It didn't only occur in Europe. Have a look at the following two pix, taken during the 1959 Tasman Cup at Longford, Tasmania. http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/brucek/hmrc/images/Tasman%20Cup/longf59.jpg http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/brucek/hmrc/images/Tasman%20Cup/longf59b... -- Regards, Bruce. ------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------- > As someone already mentioned, if Europe was bad, the lack of crowd > control at venues like Mexico and Argentina was unbelievable!

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> >I have a couple of questions and comments though. I realize it was > > mostly (if not all) actual race coverage, but man, back in those days > did > > they really just let people stand around on the side of the track > wherever > > they wanted to? And during the crash scenes at Monoco and Monza, > track > > workers and rescue personnel would run across the track right in > front of > > and behind cars going full speed. Unbeliveable!!! > Yes, and they must have had a different attitude back then because they > used to lose a few spectators in addition to a couple of drivers per > year.

Take a look at rally-sport nowadays ... especially Portugal ... you have a 'wall of spectators' ... Thats's also why I absolutely love to watch a rally live ... so far I did only see austrian championship with some WRCs in the field, but I will try to go to San Remo next time ... Its unbelievable how much you can 'feel' the cars standing next to the track, perhaps 1 meter from the race line. But you better select your position carefully ... what some spectators are doing is absolutely mad - standing on the outer side of the corner, directly behind braking zones in emergency exits, ... and even worse is, that some parents have their children there; an *** my have the chance to get away if something goes wrong and he is looking at the cars; no chance for kids, who dont pay that much attention ... Thoams -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A-8223 Stubenberg, Vockenberg 108; Styria - Austria - Europe ----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:34:14 +0200, "Thomas A. Leitgeb"

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>> >I have a couple of questions and comments though. I realize it was >> > mostly (if not all) actual race coverage, but man, back in those days >> did >> > they really just let people stand around on the side of the track >> wherever >> > they wanted to? And during the crash scenes at Monoco and Monza, >> track >> > workers and rescue personnel would run across the track right in >> front of >> > and behind cars going full speed. Unbeliveable!!! >> Yes, and they must have had a different attitude back then because they >> used to lose a few spectators in addition to a couple of drivers per >> year. >Take a look at rally-sport nowadays ... especially Portugal ... you have >a 'wall of spectators' ...

They sometimes lose a few spectators today, too. This year at the Baja 500, one spectator was killed and 6 were seriously injured when a truck rolled into a crowd. All that was separating the crowd from the track was a thin rope. --- Jet Jaguar I have a spam blocking address. Replying to me is like pulling teeth. Visit my crappy home page at http://home.att.net/~chmilnir/ MSTie #54297 Now I've been stung by a paper wasp, a yellowjacket, and a hornet.

<<..man, back in those days did they really just let people stand around on the side of the track wherever they wanted to?>> Ahhh...pretty much. Haybales and fencing had long been used, Armco was just coming into vogue, but crowd control -- especially at places like Spa -- was problematic. <<And during the crash scenes at Monoco and Monza, track workers and rescue personnel would run across the track right in front of and behind cars going full speed. Unbelievable!!!>> Still happens at LeMans! << A question I had was about Monza. Since this movie was about the '66 season, I was astonished at the banked sections there. Since those banking sections are not in GPL, does that mean they ceased driving on that section in real life for the '67 season? Also, I would like to see a map of the layout used for that Monza race in '66. I have no clue where they were going (I did see that the banked section eventually crosses over the track at the long back-stretch area tho.) I could send you a gif of the maps in private email if you wish race was definitely NOT run on the combined Monza circuit with banked curves and overpass: no GP had been run at that configuration since 1961. John Frankenheimer just thought it looked cool (how else do you get your dying hero driver halfawy up a tree?) From the inception of the World Grand Prix Championship in 1950 (and pre- war as well), the Monza GP had been run on the 6.3 km circuit that included (from the start line) the right-hand Curva Grande, the gradual left-hand Curva della Roggia, the two RH Lesmos, the LH Curva del Serraglio, the LH Curva del Vialone, and finally the square-double RH Curva di Vedano. Prior to the 1955 Italian GP, massive construction added a high-speed (well, it was supposed to be...) banked oval which was "offset-overlaid" on the original course, providing some more named curves and straights: The two highly-banked ends were called the Curva Nord alta velocita (which is where the overpass crosses the short straight of the original course between Serraglio and Vialone) and Curva Sud alta velocita; the Curva Nord was connected to the Curva Sud by the new Rettilineo di Levante, and the Curva Sud rejoined the original track just before the Parabolica (the newly configured and re-named Curva di Vedano) along theRettilineo Tribune. The "join" at the Parabolica was kinda goofy and dangerous, in the Italian tradition. The new combined course was 10km in length. Here's how Mike Lang (Grand Prix! Volumes 1&2 1950-1973) describes the track for the 1955 race: "The start was situated in the same place as before and from there the cars ran round the original circuit but on returning kept to the inside of the straight past the grandstands [the Rettilineo Tribune-BB] to join the new banked section. On returning to the main striaght again teh cars kept to the outside [which led them onto the original circuit--BB] to complete the full lap." If it sounds confusing (even allowing for Lang's aversion to punctuation) it was that, and more: the banked concrete slabs were, from day one, rough as a cob, and took a fearful toll on machinery (especially tires), as did the centripetal forces generated by the steep banking -- basically the cars had to be set up stiff as hell not to bottom out under the G- load, but the poor surface of the banks combined with super-stiff set-ups shook everything out of the cars, including the driver's teeth. Several drivers reported having vision so blurred by the rough surface that they were practically blind at times...and all this at 180 or so. What fun! The new 10km combined track was used again in '56, but locally-beloved Ferrari had nothing but problems with their unfortunate Englebert tires, which just disintegrated on the rough banking, so in '57 the race reverted to the more-or-less original track (the final right-hander Curva di Vedano had metamorphosed into the now-familiar Curva Parabolica). The Italian GP stayed at this configuration until 1960, when the race organizers thought they'd have another go at the full combined 10km course. Whereupon all the British teams boycotted the race, which left a pretty thin field (5th and 6th places were taken by F2 cars!). In 1961, the full combined course was used again, and this would be the very last time for a GP race. Even the Brits came. There is currently a move afoot (spearheaded by British pop star and Ferrari fanatico Chris Rea) to "Save The Monza Banking", as the Italian government is threatening to tear the old honkers down (Monza, of course, is in the old Royal Park, which is essentially Italian Government Property). If you want to learn more about the Save The Banking movement, check out Autosport magazine at: www.autosport.com PS Let me know if you want those track map gifs Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> "The start was situated in the same place as before and from there the > cars ran round the original circuit but on returning kept to the inside > of the straight past the grandstands [the Rettilineo Tribune-BB] to join > the new banked section. On returning to the main striaght again teh cars > kept to the outside [which led them onto the original circuit--BB] to > complete the full lap." Hmm, as far as i remember, in Grand Prix they start off with the banking and then the road course. Are you telling me that the traffic out of Parabolica and the traffic out of Curva Sud changed lane ? As long as the entrance to the banking is on the right of the straight and the exit is on the left of parabolica.. They were really mad...... -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

:> "The start was situated in the same place as before and from there the :> cars ran round the original circuit but on returning kept to the inside :> of the straight past the grandstands [the Rettilineo Tribune-BB] to join :> the new banked section. On returning to the main striaght again teh cars :> kept to the outside [which led them onto the original circuit--BB] to :> complete the full lap." : Hmm, as far as i remember, in Grand Prix they start off with the banking and : then the road course. Are you telling me that the traffic out of Parabolica : and the traffic out of Curva Sud changed lane ? As long as the entrance : to the banking is on the right of the straight and the exit is on the : left of parabolica.. They were really mad...... No - you don't have to change lane - it's really really important that you don't in fact :-) It took me a while to work this one out To GPL Monza To banking course ^ ^ |

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GPL start/finish straight | | | | | | \ | |\ \ | | \ \ ^ Parabolica | from banking So - let's see - from the start-finish straight, follow the "normal" GPL monza course all the way round to Parabolica. On exiting parabolica, keep RIGHT. Turn off the "normal" course just after the end of the pits - you can see a red "wall" of adverts there in GPL (some people, like me, crash into this on their first lap, having taken a "wrong turn"). You'd now be on the banking. The banking crosses the GPL course - you can see it overhead after the second Lesmo in fact. You then re-enter the start finish straight from the left - keep LEFT and down the Start-finish straight exiting on the left down the GPL course. Phew.... Well, that's how I think it works - I'm sure someone will tell me if I'm wrong. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

The "Motor Racing is Dangerous" sign on that straw-bale-and-chicken-wire "fence" is especially droll... BB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Thanks for the URL -- very cool. BB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

After reading all this info about the banked Monza ( I was wondering about this for a long time, thanks for the explanation! ) I got this great idea: What if someone with the knowledge of making tracks made the banked Monza for GPL? Wouldn't that be great! David!!!!!! PLEEEEEAAAASSSSEEEEEE!!!!!! Andre On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:44:55 -0000, "Bruce Kennewell"

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>Also the fact that the wording is readable from the driver's >perspective....!!! :o) >[link lost in import: /%20Cup/longf59b] >> The "Motor Racing is Dangerous" sign on that straw-bale-and-chicken-wire >> "fence" is especially droll... >> BB >> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

<snip some good stuff> <snip some really good stuff> Thanks Bart, that was a brilliant piece of writing.

That's how it worked, alright. > :> "The start was situated in the same place as before and from there the > :> cars ran round the original circuit but on returning kept to the inside > :> of the straight past the grandstands [the Rettilineo Tribune-BB] to join > :> the new banked section. On returning to the main striaght again teh cars > :> kept to the outside [which led them onto the original circuit--BB] to > :> complete the full lap." > : Hmm, as far as i remember, in Grand Prix they start off with the banking and > : then the road course. Are you telling me that the traffic out of Parabolica

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> : and the traffic out of Curva Sud changed lane ? As long as the entrance > : to the banking is on the right of the straight and the exit is on the > : left of parabolica.. They were really mad...... > No - you don't have to change lane - it's really really important that > you don't in fact :-) It took me a while to work this one out > To GPL Monza To banking > course ^ > ^ | > | / / > | |/ / > | | | > | | | > | | > | | > | | > GPL start/finish > straight > | | > | | > | | \ > | |\ \ > | | \ \ > ^ Parabolica > | > from banking > So - let's see - from the start-finish straight, follow the "normal" > GPL monza course all the way round to Parabolica. On exiting > parabolica, keep RIGHT. Turn off the "normal" course just after > the end of the pits - you can see a red "wall" of adverts there in > GPL (some people, like me, crash into this on their first lap, having > taken a "wrong turn"). You'd now be on the banking. The banking > crosses the GPL course - you can see it overhead after the second > Lesmo in fact. You then re-enter the start finish straight from the > left - keep LEFT and down the Start-finish straight exiting on the left > down the GPL course. > Phew.... > Well, that's how I think it works - I'm sure someone will tell me if > I'm wrong. > -- > Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving > Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. > www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Also the fact that the wording is readable from the driver's perspective....!!! :o) http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/brucek/hmrc/images/Tasman%20Cup/longf59b...

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> :> "The start was situated in the same place as before and from there the > :> cars ran round the original circuit but on returning kept to the inside > :> of the straight past the grandstands [the Rettilineo Tribune-BB] to join > :> the new banked section. On returning to the main striaght again teh cars > :> kept to the outside [which led them onto the original circuit--BB] to > :> complete the full lap." > : Hmm, as far as i remember, in Grand Prix they start off with the banking and > : then the road course. Are you telling me that the traffic out of Parabolica > : and the traffic out of Curva Sud changed lane ? As long as the entrance > : to the banking is on the right of the straight and the exit is on the > : left of parabolica.. They were really mad...... > No - you don't have to change lane - it's really really important that > you don't in fact :-) It took me a while to work this one out > To GPL Monza To banking > course ^ > ^ | > | / / > | |/ / > | | | > | | | > | | > | | > | | > GPL start/finish > straight > | | > | | > | | \ > | |\ \ > | | \ \ > ^ Parabolica > | > from banking > So - let's see - from the start-finish straight, follow the "normal" > GPL monza course all the way round to Parabolica. On exiting > parabolica, keep RIGHT. Turn off the "normal" course just after > the end of the pits - you can see a red "wall" of adverts there in > GPL (some people, like me, crash into this on their first lap, having > taken a "wrong turn"). You'd now be on the banking. The banking > crosses the GPL course - you can see it overhead after the second > Lesmo in fact. You then re-enter the start finish straight from the > left - keep LEFT and down the Start-finish straight exiting on the left > down the GPL course. > Phew.... > Well, that's how I think it works - I'm sure someone will tell me if > I'm wrong.

Damn I feel stupid right now :) Of course, whenever you start with the banking or the roadcourse it makes no difference. But then again, yesterday at work whem i wrote this post i also called support because one of my passwords didn't work, guess what, CAPS LOCK was on. What a terrible day.... > -- > Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving > Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. > www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

:> http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/brucek/hmrc/images/Tasman%20Cup/longf59b... : The "Motor Racing is Dangerous" sign on that straw-bale-and-chicken-wire : "fence" is especially droll... The big question is why is it facing the drivers not the crowd? Do they really think that the drivers haven't noticed? -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Good job. When I saw the beginning of this, I thought you were out of your mind, but it turned out quite nicely. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

>Take a look at rally-sport nowadays ... especially Portugal ... you have >a 'wall of spectators' ... I've NEVER understood wanting to be that close to cars that are on the 'edge' of control... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

It's the same as the drivers.. Being "at the edge", just at the limit between staying alive and not. Adrenaline rush and chaotic instant emotions. Of course there's always people who go over the edge, with the consequence we see. But personally I would rather be inside a car than those crazy spectators :) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

>>Take a look at rally-sport nowadays ... especially Portugal ... you have >>a 'wall of spectators' ... >I've NEVER understood wanting to be that close to cars that are on the 'edge' >of control... >Eldred I used to work as a corner marshal and, except for the normal precautions, I never gave a thought to the dangers involved, that is, until soon after my daughter was born. All of a sudden, self preservation became much more important<g>. It was Brian Redman in a Formula 5000 car, tail out in turn 6 at Riverside, looking right at me with his huge maniacal grin, that finally put the fear of God in me. I switched to photographing the cars where I could hang back a bit in a safer location...it pays better too<g>. don []-(_)-[]