Queries, if you please gentlemen.

Forgive me, I've staggered over from another newsgroup after recently becoming bitten by the racing bug. After seeing Viper Racing run on a machine with a ATI Rage Fury and a FF M$ wheel, well, it was just too much. <g> So I've been watching this ng for a few days, getting to grips with this new genre, and I have to admit that as of yet, I do not own any full products, only demos [Viper included], so if I may, I'd like to pose a few questions and queries. First of all, I'm a UK resident, so please bear this in mind with regard to some of my questions/queries - many thanks. Initially, I'm curious to know of the ras denizens games of choice - I know GPL is _very_ popular, but I'm interested in knowing a 'top five/ten' of the games available. Preferably the sim rather than arcade element appeals to me. Additionally, being a 'displaced' biker, I'd like peoples views on the current offerings of bike sims - I've the EA Superbike demo, which, using my Gravis Firebird 2, is quite hard work [anyone got a .FBD set up they'd be willing to share?]. So, the main thrust of this thread. Well, several actually. 1. Gfx cards - the players choice now, as it stands, as well as the up and coming offerings [i.e. Matrox G400 as a 'one to watch']. I currently have a Voodoo Banshee, which has served me well for the past several months, but now I'm thinking it's time to move up. I'd appreciate any comments on a) where to buy at best price, and b) what is the current favourite with players? Please remember I'm UK based, so US sites means shipping and exchange rates, etc. 2. FF wheels and of course, pedals. I've seen various threads on the issue, but nowhere where there is a comparison. I've visited several racing sim sites but none had a comparison test. Does anyone do such a test even? Again, I'm looking for a best price within the UK. I'm angling towards the Logitech FF wheel, but from the threads I've read, the pedals aren't that good - are there any good pedals available separately, and if so, what are they? 3. UK websites for racing sims - would anyone be willing to offer a few to visit? Well, rather long I admit, but thanks for bearing with me. Thanks for your time over this gentlemen and I hope some day to be simming with the rest of you. Once again, many thanks. -- Detonate

detonate...WELCOME! RASers, detonate is an extremely valuable addition, as i am familiar with him via a cheese toasties newsgroup. his domain is completely devoid of slanderous attacks and i will personally refrain from my jerkiness when the fair detonate calls. you will find countless opinions on all of your topics. allow me to tackle the one that i am most familiar with: 1. GPL - you already know about this one. it has made THIS NASCAR fan put NASCAR on hold since it came out. all others should be embarrassed. 2. viper racing - another venture in the great future. 3. NASCAR2 - as bad as GPL makes this look by comparison, it still is excellent. the sound quality would have to be considered poor now, but it still has the look and feel of a first-rate sim. 4. SBK - poor sales - excellent sim. 5. Grand Prix 2 - barely still available, but still the best of the "modern" F1 sims. you will get lots of arguements about this one, almost exclusively from fans of a beverage coaster known as F1 Racing Simulation. look for Grand Prix 3 by autumn. 6. SODA off-road racing - sure, this is a small segment release, but it is hard to find someone who doesn't enjoy this as a decent distraction from the "serious" sims. a major plus is the addition of a track editor.

. http://www.force-1.com/ Check out the site above for reviews of all the major FF wheels and a good forum for discussion of all things force feedback. I've had the WFF for over 6 months and am still very happy with it. I stiffened up the pedal springs a bit which helped with, what I felt, was over sensitivity in the pedals. Recently I wired my CH pedals up to the Logitech wheel and now have the perfect <g> force feedback rig. don

Hmmm...I thought they were a prerequisite here? Ben

Might try www.blitzsports.com/racing/TOCA2 for a peek at a British series. Happy Motoring

As far as wheels go, I think the Saitek R4 Force wheel is very underrated. You can have the same electrical FF mechanism as the Micro$oft $idewinder wheel for much less -- refurbished units can be had for $99 direct from Saitek. I really like mine -- the pedals are decent (not great for GPL, but PLENTY adequate for Viper Racing and such), plus you get paddle shifters AND a stick shift (something offered by no other FF wheel currently). Check out our review at: http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/sims/ As for non-Force Feedback wheels, I'm also a big fan of the ACT Labs RS wheel (I haven't tried out the FF model yet). The Mad Catz Andretti Racing Wheel is VERY sweet (it features digital input which improves frame rates), and other reports here indicate a favorable response from others, too. The Thrustmaster Super Sport wheel is a VERY nice design -- I'd highly recommend this over Thrustmaster's NASCAR Pro (A.K.A. the Grand Prix or F1 wheel in europe, I believe); the only downside is no shifter (you get paddles instead), but it seems to be TM's best effort to date. When it comes to sims themselves, I'd recommend the following as my own personal hall of fame (based on what's currently available in stores): 1. Viper Racing: Has FF, a great physics model, a decent career ladder, contemporary sports car theme is easy to relate to. 2. Grand Prix Legends: THE most realistic sim on the market -- definitely THE one to have if you're interested in open-wheeled, historic F1 racing; may be a tad too difficult for some. Also, no FF yet. 3. Sports Car GT: Very decent physics model (with all patches and hacks installed), multitude of contemporary sports cars to choose from, tons of replayability. Maybe not the most realistic sim from a physics modeling standpoint, but it does a bang-up job of simulating the race experience and the racing environment. Does support FF, but the effects are not quite as spectacular as Viper Racing. I can't comment on graphics cards -- I'm just now moving UP to a Banshee! <G> I would recommend looking into the PDPI L4 game card if you're a serious gamer, but if you're interested in FF, then the PDPI card probably won't work for you. Hope this helps a bit. -- John Bodin Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/ On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:19:33 +0100, "Detonate"

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>Forgive me, I've staggered over from another newsgroup after recently becoming >bitten by the racing bug. After seeing Viper Racing run on a machine with a ATI >Rage Fury and a FF M$ wheel, well, it was just too much. <g> >So I've been watching this ng for a few days, getting to grips with this new >genre, and I have to admit that as of yet, I do not own any full products, only >demos [Viper included], so if I may, I'd like to pose a few questions and >queries. >First of all, I'm a UK resident, so please bear this in mind with regard to some >of my questions/queries - many thanks. >Initially, I'm curious to know of the ras denizens games of choice - I know GPL >is _very_ popular, but I'm interested in knowing a 'top five/ten' of the games >available. Preferably the sim rather than arcade element appeals to me. >Additionally, being a 'displaced' biker, I'd like peoples views on the current >offerings of bike sims - I've the EA Superbike demo, which, using my Gravis >Firebird 2, is quite hard work [anyone got a .FBD set up they'd be willing to >share?]. >So, the main thrust of this thread. Well, several actually. >1. Gfx cards - the players choice now, as it stands, as well as the up and >coming offerings [i.e. Matrox G400 as a 'one to watch']. I currently have a >Voodoo Banshee, which has served me well for the past several months, but now >I'm thinking it's time to move up. I'd appreciate any comments on a) where to >buy at best price, and b) what is the current favourite with players? Please >remember I'm UK based, so US sites means shipping and exchange rates, etc. >2. FF wheels and of course, pedals. I've seen various threads on the issue, >but nowhere where there is a comparison. I've visited several racing sim sites >but none had a comparison test. Does anyone do such a test even? Again, I'm >looking for a best price within the UK. > I'm angling towards the Logitech FF wheel, but from the threads I've read, >the pedals aren't that good - are there any good pedals available separately, >and if so, what are they? >3. UK websites for racing sims - would anyone be willing to offer a few to >visit? >Well, rather long I admit, but thanks for bearing with me. Thanks for your time >over this gentlemen and I hope some day to be simming with the rest of you. >Once again, many thanks. >-- >Detonate

Sims, in terms of challenge plus fun. 1. SCGT (with appropriate tweaking of the AI to make em corner faster) 2. GPL 3. EA Superbikes ( be No 1 if they tweaked the AI spped by 10% or so) 4. Viper Racing (especially if you tweak it to race more cars at once) 5. Colin McRae Rally. Graphics cards. Buy some cheap Voodoo 2's and run them in SLI mode and get a TNT 2 Ultra for future games. Steering wheel. Tried at least a dozen and settled for the Logitech Force. Can't go past the Microsoft Sidewinder Precicion Pro for a joystick and the Gravis USB Gamepad. Bike sims. EA Superbike needs faster AI but still a fun game with very nice graphics. GP500 will blow your mind and AMA Superbikes looks prmising in terms of multiplayer fun. Welcome to the world of sims!

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> Forgive me, I've staggered over from another newsgroup after recently becoming > bitten by the racing bug. After seeing Viper Racing run on a machine with a ATI > Rage Fury and a FF M$ wheel, well, it was just too much. <g> > So I've been watching this ng for a few days, getting to grips with this new > genre, and I have to admit that as of yet, I do not own any full products, only > demos [Viper included], so if I may, I'd like to pose a few questions and > queries. > First of all, I'm a UK resident, so please bear this in mind with regard to some > of my questions/queries - many thanks. > Initially, I'm curious to know of the ras denizens games of choice - I know GPL > is _very_ popular, but I'm interested in knowing a 'top five/ten' of the games > available. Preferably the sim rather than arcade element appeals to me. > Additionally, being a 'displaced' biker, I'd like peoples views on the current > offerings of bike sims - I've the EA Superbike demo, which, using my Gravis > Firebird 2, is quite hard work [anyone got a .FBD set up they'd be willing to > share?]. > So, the main thrust of this thread. Well, several actually. > 1. Gfx cards - the players choice now, as it stands, as well as the up and > coming offerings [i.e. Matrox G400 as a 'one to watch']. I currently have a > Voodoo Banshee, which has served me well for the past several months, but now > I'm thinking it's time to move up. I'd appreciate any comments on a) where to > buy at best price, and b) what is the current favourite with players? Please > remember I'm UK based, so US sites means shipping and exchange rates, etc. > 2. FF wheels and of course, pedals. I've seen various threads on the issue, > but nowhere where there is a comparison. I've visited several racing sim sites > but none had a comparison test. Does anyone do such a test even? Again, I'm > looking for a best price within the UK. > I'm angling towards the Logitech FF wheel, but from the threads I've read, > the pedals aren't that good - are there any good pedals available separately, > and if so, what are they? > 3. UK websites for racing sims - would anyone be willing to offer a few to > visit? > Well, rather long I admit, but thanks for bearing with me. Thanks for your time > over this gentlemen and I hope some day to be simming with the rest of you. > Once again, many thanks. > -- > Detonate

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:19:33 +0100, "Detonate" >Initially, I'm curious to know of the ras denizens games of choice - I know GPL >is _very_ popular, but I'm interested in knowing a 'top five/ten' of the games >available. Cue millions of slightly different lists...! My own choices (in no particular order) would be - if you like... 1) Online racing ---------------- Grand Prix Legends (GPL) Monster Truck Madness (MTM1/2) Monaco Grand Prix Racing Simulation (MGPRS2) CART Precision Racing (CPR) (I would include NASCAR 2 but in the UK getting an account to race on "TEN", the online service, is tricky. 2) Realistic driving -------------------- Grand Prix Legends Grand Prix 2 Monaco Grand Prix Racing Simulation (MGPRS2) CART Racing (ICR2) Viper Racing 3) Racing (offline) ------------------- Viper Racing Grand Prix Legends (GPL) Sports Car GT (SCGT) TOCA2 Monster Truck Madness (MTM1/2) I find them all too difficult but then I'm no bike fan! EA Superbike (SBK) is pretty good, though there's a couple coming soon which look well worth waiting for. With auto-sims the video card is quite dependent upon what game you want to run. Some offer pretty much unilateral support, some require Rendition support (quite unudual), some only 3dFX or Rendition, others no 3D support at all (GP2 etc). The best is probably a 3dFX for now since that offers maximum compatibility now and in the near future. Personally I'm keeping my Voodoo2 and swapping out my Hercules Thriller 3D V2200 (Rendition) for a TNT2-Ultra board. If you're dead set on buying one then I've no useful comment. I've tried all the FF wheels and consider the wheels themselves to be "okay" and the FF to be a waste of time at present (i.e. not representative of the forces which a real car would create). Best to buy a non-FF wheel at present, an ECCI or TSW if budget allows, or an F1-sim otherwise. The F1-sim has the advantage of being relatively cheap and widely available within the UK. The best websites are not really in the UK, although one of the best started life there. The Pits (http://www.theuspits.com) is a good starting place for files and utilities, for news High Gear is quite good (http://www.simracingnews.com) - both also have lots of links to get you going. From either of these you will find lots of sites dedicated to specific sims. For GPL the best site to start with is Alison Hine's, although I don't remember the URL at the moment! Do a search on Dejanews for Alison Hine or "Eagle Woman" and you should find it. Hope to see you online sometime - it's always nice to have another UK racer. A few of us UK people race together in the UK GPL league, so perhaps that's something you can look at if GPL is a sim you enjoy. Cheers! John

Don wrote Thanks for the link Don, it will be invaluable no doubt in the coming months for my quest for a FF wheel. Much appreciated. Det.

Mark wrote Hmm, seems we think alike Mark with our choices - I've earmarked all the above as contenders. Thanks for the tips, I'll be checking them out over the coming months. I have to say, I'm very impressed with the civility of everyone here, it makes a refreshing change to find such a friendly and helpful group of people on usenet - thanks to one and all! Detonate.

John wrote Thanks for the advice John, though the US prices don't really assist that much due to exchange rates and shipping - any savings would be swallowed up importing it, as well as prices and availability here in the UK fluctuate from the average to the ***ly overpriced. The best deal I've found by far is the M$ FF wheel from Insight.com, which is 86.94UKP - sorry dunno what this translates to dollars. From looking around, it's only the big warehouse type stores which have any kind of range when it comes to wheels, but the payoff is in price unfortunately. :-( I'll check out this Saitek gig though to see if there is anything available/applicable to the UK. Can't say I'm familiar with ACT Labs, nor Andretti wheel, so if a URL is available, I'd really appreciate it. As for the sims, I've been digging through the pile of cover CD's which come with various *** mags to find what I've missed. I have to agree with you on most, though I've yet to load up the GPL demo's [there are 2 different ones from what I've seen]. I think you hit the nail on the head when it comes to my preferences - contemporary cars, though I still plan on checking out GPL at some stage. I can't really get into the F1 sims - yet, but I'm intrigued by CMR though I'm having trouble with running the demo alone, so I'll have to wait on that one for a conclusive result on whether it's what I'm 'into'. My next consideration is this graphics card issue. I'm very wary of the Voodoo 3 3000 and don't think it's worth it, IMHO, so I'm angling for a cheap ATI Rage Fury from Insight [bargain bin - around 56UKP, which is better than 128UKP retail] and be happy with it until the current situation develops a bit further in the coming months - the Matrox G400 seems to be interesting but there are others on the peripheral which appear to offer great promise as well. Anyway, thanks for replying John, your insight has been both welcome and invaluable. Detonate

snip [my apologies] Very useful and informative John - I'm trying to build up a list of useful hardward as well as titles which have been tried and debated here - the best way to find out what's good and so so. Your comments have been informative and hopefully when I get myself a decent system up together, I'll be racing in short time. Provided the wife lets me, of course! <g> Thanks again Detonate

Into the fray! 1. Gfx cards; a pity that Banshee of yours is occupying your AGP slot. Otherwise a combo of Voodoo 2 (PCI) and the new TNT 2 (AGP) seems to get you the best of "both" worlds. Aggreed, the Matrox G4000 is a card to watch, but as it's not out yet... 2. FF Wheels; I use a MS Sidewinder FF Wheeeeee! and am extreamly satisfied with it. No calibration never (digital), good FF effects, the best pedals, paddle shifters and a superb on/off clamping mechanism (It comes off/fastens in seconds). 3. UK websites? You mean OK websites? There are plenty... :-) Games/sims; Where to begin... TOCA 2 is excellent and only UK tracks :-) Great sounds, superb graphics and weather effects, so-so car physics, limited setups but all-in-all a great game. And racing the support car Fiesta or AC Cobra is a hoot! CMR is also great fun. Mind you, FF self-centering is non functional is CMR but for some reason I got used to it and it's not a problem anymore. Maybe it's designed that way by Codemaster, I dunno. Few games give me such a phsyical workout as CMR. SCGT is <insert superlatives here>. Up to par with TOCA 2. A bit weak in the FF dept. though. And a game interface from hell! Viper Racing. The best FF effects, period. And the championship mode is great. For some reason sold for half the price of other games. Powerslide. It'll give your new FF wheel a proper workout, that's for sure! GPL; I won't even begin... It's a must-have! /petern On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:19:33 +0100, "Detonate"

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>Forgive me, I've staggered over from another newsgroup after recently becoming >bitten by the racing bug. After seeing Viper Racing run on a machine with a ATI >Rage Fury and a FF M$ wheel, well, it was just too much. <g> >So I've been watching this ng for a few days, getting to grips with this new >genre, and I have to admit that as of yet, I do not own any full products, only >demos [Viper included], so if I may, I'd like to pose a few questions and >queries. >First of all, I'm a UK resident, so please bear this in mind with regard to some >of my questions/queries - many thanks. >Initially, I'm curious to know of the ras denizens games of choice - I know GPL >is _very_ popular, but I'm interested in knowing a 'top five/ten' of the games >available. Preferably the sim rather than arcade element appeals to me. >Additionally, being a 'displaced' biker, I'd like peoples views on the current >offerings of bike sims - I've the EA Superbike demo, which, using my Gravis >Firebird 2, is quite hard work [anyone got a .FBD set up they'd be willing to >share?]. >So, the main thrust of this thread. Well, several actually. >1. Gfx cards - the players choice now, as it stands, as well as the up and >coming offerings [i.e. Matrox G400 as a 'one to watch']. I currently have a >Voodoo Banshee, which has served me well for the past several months, but now >I'm thinking it's time to move up. I'd appreciate any comments on a) where to >buy at best price, and b) what is the current favourite with players? Please >remember I'm UK based, so US sites means shipping and exchange rates, etc. >2. FF wheels and of course, pedals. I've seen various threads on the issue, >but nowhere where there is a comparison. I've visited several racing sim sites >but none had a comparison test. Does anyone do such a test even? Again, I'm >looking for a best price within the UK. > I'm angling towards the Logitech FF wheel, but from the threads I've read, >the pedals aren't that good - are there any good pedals available separately, >and if so, what are they? >3. UK websites for racing sims - would anyone be willing to offer a few to >visit? >Well, rather long I admit, but thanks for bearing with me. Thanks for your time >over this gentlemen and I hope some day to be simming with the rest of you. >Once again, many thanks. >-- >Detonate

Me too, so no prob. Before GPL (which I saw in Electronics boutique for 20 quid last week!) there was N2 (now on budget), F1RS (also on budget), ICR2 (budget - if you can find it) and GP2 (again on budget). Currently there's MGPRS (don't own), SCGT (which I'm gonna buy), Viper (also a possible purchase - don't like fantasy tracks though) and TOCA - which I really don't like. CMR I found to be fun, but maybe not simmy enough for you. I ain't a biker, so can't help there. In a bike sim how do you manage to effectively lean -and- steer with analogue control? I just bought a V3 3000 - don't write 'em off. They may not be quite as fast or Carmack friendly as a TNT2 ultra but I get -proper- GPL support and there are still decent Glide sims available. Not being fastest does not automatically mean being bad. My PC is -only- for sim racing. Couldn't give a monkeys what Q3 heads think. Mind you, I'm upgrading from a P200 and V1, so anything will look impressive to me. Friendly advice: buy a gfx card for what you play, not what you might in the future. Buy a card for those -future games- when those games are out. By then, the Ultra's ***will be kicked out of town... You don't buy a N64 to play Gran Turismo, You don't buy a Dreamcast to play Mario Cart... Sorry, not bothered about FF. My TM F1 (split axis, lovely pedal and shifter feel) cost me 70 quid from PC World. You've been given plenty by now! Enjoy your racing, glad you could make it. And persevere with GPL!! BTW, all my opinions are based on 1 player racing - I haven't got on to internet racing yet... Mark Reading, UK Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Just a reply to make some discussion here I hope. From this list, you feel that the physics in MGPRS2 are more accurate and better than Icr2 or Viper Racing ? I personally, after open-wheel and stock-car racing experience, would rate Viper Racing second below GPL, and a tie between Gp2 and Icr2 after. I personally think that if you mix the physics of Gp2 and Icr2 it would create probably the most perfect recent open-wheel driving ever. In Icr2 you have great visual cues when you are concentrated on the feelings and forces of the car, while in Gp2, you have this pure rage of Formula 1 exiting the corners with great power and acceleration. Compare those to MGPRS2, where you have this blattent attempt to an accurate tyre slip angle that fails in a canned way (just try at slow speed to go back and fourth to build up tyre heat like in real life) and also no real feeling since the***pit and the visual 3d doesn't woggle in any kind of way (except on the bumps at some tracks), I personally feel they are more accurate, even if older. So in what way does your opinion goes to say "realistic driving" ?. It is the sense of being at the edge of your seat ? The graphics ? The physics ? Anything else ;-D -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

No and yes respectively. Notice that my list includes CART Racing, which is ICR2 by any other name. Viper Racing is good, but still tending toward the arcade more than MGPRS2. Realistic driving is driving on the limit. Okay, the physics don't work at low speed (which is a problem) but not as much of a problem (in "realistic driving" terms as the way I can brake 50m from a 90 deg. bend and toss the Viper into it without a care in the world. I'd need a HUGE amount to drink before I'd try that in real life. MGPRS2 is one of the best in terms of throttle sensitivity, in capturing the look and feel of racing, the huge braking etc - basically GP2 with improved options and lovely graphics. I've certainly panned it in the past, but that's simply for not offering much of an improvement over F1RS. When I reviewed F1RS for Sim News it scored high 80s or low 90s AFAI remember, and MGPRS2 is only better. Cheers! John

For pretty good prices on hardware try www.cclcomputers.co.uk/price_f.htm This is where I do all my shopping, Voodoo 3 2000 for 83, 3000 for 112 as examples. Never used their mail order, but I guess it should be fine. I agree that the best FF deal seems to be the Insight MSFF. CCL have the logitec for about 110. As for games, I have only 2 installed: GPL and GP2 (if you ignore solitaire...)! Cheers, Neil

Friendly? You haven't posted the critical mass of messages yet to trigger the unfriendly mode. Don't forget to look at some of the arcade racers as well (blasphemy!). Motorhead is a lot of fun and you get to build up your arm muscles with the FF effects!

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> Mark wrote > > Sims, in terms of challenge plus fun. > > 1. SCGT (with appropriate tweaking of the AI to make em corner faster) > > 2. GPL > > 3. EA Superbikes ( be No 1 if they tweaked the AI spped by 10% or so) > > 4. Viper Racing (especially if you tweak it to race more cars at once) > > 5. Colin McRae Rally. > Hmm, seems we think alike Mark with our choices - I've earmarked all the above > as contenders. Thanks for the tips, I'll be checking them out over the coming > months. > I have to say, I'm very impressed with the civility of everyone here, it makes a > refreshing change to find such a friendly and helpful group of people on > usenet - thanks to one and all! > Detonate.

This comment always strikes me as strange (as did the one by Pappy in the GPL docs). Sure today FF is pretty primitive (compared to what will come), but then I look at the monitor a 2D fixed camera representation of everything in the virtual 3D world including an embedding of perceptions normally aquired in the ears (and no, I'm not talking about hearing sound effects) and I think so what? The FF in Viper is a definate advantage in feeling weight transfer, loss and probably more significantly the regaining of grip. It might not feel like the real thing would, but like when suddenly switching from regularly driving the same car, you gradually tune in to what the wheel is telling you. Me, I'll take any more input the system can give me, no matter how primitivly it is applied. -- Suck The Goat

Mark wrote Cue sporadic editing, for clarity... Viper and TOCA - which I really don't like. Currently, I'm testing the water with racing sims - those cover CD's from various games mags have finally come in useful! Trouble is, neither GPL nor CMR will run, for whatever reason. After checking out various demos, titles which instantly appealed were Viper and SCGT, with a curiosity towards TOCA2 and CMR. Didn't think much of the TOCA2 demo and CMR refused to load, so that narrowed the field down to two titles. I've decided on SCGT in the end though and enjoyed the demo after prolonged play between that and Viper. And I have to consider the hardware next - the wife is going to go spare.... [she already tells people she's a computer widow] Yeah, I agree here, I'm quite happy to find a decent price on a plain old ATI Rage Fury for now. Plenty of time to check out the others when they materialise. I'm heading off to PC World before I go to work, for a price comparison. Anyway, thanks for the information Mark, all very useful indeed. Detonate