The Future of Multiplayer Racing

Scott B. Husted has an excellent article at High Gear http://www.simracingnews.com/'s future. I thought I'd mention that MS just completed it's latest MTM2 tourney which had over 1,000 entrants and gave away to the winner a $30,000+ truck. This for a game which was released over a year ago. I agree with much of what he said and have the same hopes for online sim racing as he does, but some of what Scott is wishful for is actually already in existence. Just not so much in the strictly hard core sim community. His article doesn't mention what's been happening over the past couple of years with the with the more arcade type of titles. For example, MS's arcade racers such as MTM2, Motocross Madness, and now Midtown Madness have a very high number of players, and sponsored tournaments are regular. It's easy to find competitors at the Zone which is extremely well organize. Microprose is going to use the Zone for it's multiplayer option in GP500. I see companies such as MS as already headed in the direction that Scott and myself would like online racing to go but if it's to happen with the more sim oriented titles, one simple thing must occur and that is that the turnout for a particular sim tournament will have to be on the level of the MTM2 tournament I mention above. Otherwise, online sim racing will probably stay unorganized. It's really that simple. Online racing has been growing very rapidly and becoming more organized, just not so much with sim titles. Maybe because sim drivers are older and a little more reluctant to embrace something new? I've been racing online for two years now and what's interesting is that even though there are 6 billion people on the planet, I often see the same names pop up today that I first raced against (or discussed online racing with) two years ago when racing with a sim title. Again, the number of sim racers HAS to grow before we see professional online racing, with sponsors, prizes, and spectators. There's no reason to ignore the online arcade racing community and what it can teach us. It should be used as an example. As I said in another post the other day, the racing among the best drivers is just as difficult and competitive as with the pure sims, and they are just as serious and dedicated to their title. I say this because I've split my time over the past two years by racing against many of the top sim drivers (names many of us are familiar with), and also top arcade racers such as in the MTM2 Vegas Tourney where I placed tied for 5th. I mention my experience only because I saw NO difference in the mindset and talent of the top level, serious, drivers. Everyone wants the SAME things in online racing. There's no reason to think that as sim racers we need to invent online racing. It's already going along nicely with the arcade racers, and sim racers are simply lagging behind. I remember just a year ago that many here at r.a.s. were VERY skeptical about online racing and didn't seem too interested in what it could deliver. Today, most seem to have slowly opened up to it's possiblities, but we are now way behind the arcade titles in organization and numbers. David G Fisher

Very well put!! Just my opinion, but, the reason why the hard core Sim drivers are reluctant in setting up a good organization is because they would rather see someone else do it. Every time I mention the what Sim racing can become all I get is "It's just a game", "Now go and get a life". :-(

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> Scott B. Husted has an excellent article at High Gear > http://www.simracingnews.com/theview/ which talks about multiplayer racing's > future. I thought I'd mention that MS just completed it's latest MTM2 > tourney which had over 1,000 entrants and gave away to the winner a $30,000+ > truck. This for a game which was released over a year ago. > I agree with much of what he said and have the same hopes for online sim > racing as he does, but some of what Scott is wishful for is actually already > in existence. Just not so much in the strictly hard core sim community. His > article doesn't mention what's been happening over the past couple of years > with the with the more arcade type of titles. For example, MS's arcade > racers such as MTM2, Motocross Madness, and now Midtown Madness have a very > high number of players, and sponsored tournaments are regular. It's easy to > find competitors at the Zone which is extremely well organize. Microprose is > going to use the Zone for it's multiplayer option in GP500. > I see companies such as MS as already headed in the direction that Scott and > myself would like online racing to go but if it's to happen with the more > sim oriented titles, one simple thing must occur and that is that the > turnout for a particular sim tournament will have to be on the level of the > MTM2 tournament I mention above. Otherwise, online sim racing will probably > stay unorganized. It's really that simple. Online racing has been growing > very rapidly and becoming more organized, just not so much with sim titles. > Maybe because sim drivers are older and a little more reluctant to embrace > something new? > I've been racing online for two years now and what's interesting is that > even though there are 6 billion people on the planet, I often see the same > names pop up today that I first raced against (or discussed online racing > with) two years ago when racing with a sim title. Again, the number of sim > racers HAS to grow before we see professional online racing, with sponsors, > prizes, and spectators. > There's no reason to ignore the online arcade racing community and what it > can teach us. It should be used as an example. As I said in another post the > other day, the racing among the best drivers is just as difficult and > competitive as with the pure sims, and they are just as serious and > dedicated to their title. I say this because I've split my time over the > past two years by racing against many of the top sim drivers (names many of > us are familiar with), and also top arcade racers such as in the MTM2 Vegas > Tourney where I placed tied for 5th. I mention my experience only because I > saw NO difference in the mindset and talent of the top level, serious, > drivers. Everyone wants the SAME things in online racing. There's no reason > to think that as sim racers we need to invent online racing. It's already > going along nicely with the arcade racers, and sim racers are simply lagging > behind. I remember just a year ago that many here at r.a.s. were VERY > skeptical about online racing and didn't seem too interested in what it > could deliver. Today, most seem to have slowly opened up to it's > possiblities, but we are now way behind the arcade titles in organization > and numbers. > David G Fisher

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Member of R.O.R. 1999 http://www.pivot.net/~marknjess/ror.html ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Sim Racing Mag http://www.simracingmag.com/ Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here) mikeba.vcf < 1K Download

Mike, We have discussed this issue before and Ive actually talked to my neighbor who is an attorney. It was just casual talk out on the front porch but between us we raised about 20 - 30 issues to be solved just on the surface. The resources needed would be exceptional without backing from a deep pocket source ;) Scott PA-Scott G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com High Gear Editor - "The View" - http://www.simracingnews.com -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 04:48:47 -0400, "David G Fisher" >Maybe because sim drivers are older and a little more reluctant to embrace >something new? As you mentioned yourself, I see little difference in the mindset between the two (arcade and sim), rather there is one fundamental difference between arcade and sim which applies to all aspects of these genre - that of realism. Obviously this has an impact on the physics of driving etc, but fundamentally there are things which are easier to implement in an arcade racer than in a sim. Arcade racers tend toward "knockout" type one-off races, whereas to have a meaningful online and organised sim area it would need to incorporate a league (with all associated administration). Then too the bumping and boring that is part and parcel of an online arcade race is generally not tolerated in a sim race (again mirroring real life) - this too must be adminstrated and punishments meted out. This trend can be carried through to any aspect of these products, and goes a long way to explaining why online arcade communities are easier to develop than sim. In GPL you need to model a standing start since that's what happens in F1 - that brings a lot of problems, and leagues having to create rules, guidelines or simply change altogether to rolling starts. In something like POD there are no requirements since there is no reality, the developers can just follow whatever is best. This bringing together of reality and what is feasible is a constriction in sims which is less of a drawback in arcade racers. I share your desire though, I would love to be able to turn on my computer and click an icon to be taken to the "virtual track" to participate in a proper race event, with league points, penalties etc. With computers these days almost always being sold with a modem and an internet account it is becoming much more feasible to have such a thing, but at present most sims are way too fragmented in terms of how to connect, quality of connection, direct access from within the sim, how to find other communities etc. TEN and The Zone are far and away the best ideas, particularly The Zone which is an integral part of CPR, MTM etc and accessed from within the game. TEN is still something N2 was bolted onto and a customer could happily play N2 for years and never know about TEN. Numbers is the critical thing. GPL is, IMO, the best online racing sim available, but again VROC, GSB etc are not integrated with the product. Buying GPL will not bring you to these racing communities - so too with N2, where buying the game will not cause you to arrive at TEN. A real crossover product would be, for example, if GP3 or N3/4 were to include some _integrated_ online play, where the game would not only detect an internet connection (or the means to make one) but upon selecting that option would bring you into a SpyBoy like environment. That would not only improve things for us by increasing the participants, but would hugely improve the enjoyment of the game (I still recall my shock at finding F1GP communities online for the first time and realising that, no, I wasn't actually that fast and had a LOT of practice to do!). Even better would be an integrated front-end that allowed league organisation, knockout tournaments and the like, although that would most probably require some server software and someone to organise it which in turn implies a membership fee etc. I think it's difficult to automate anything beyond pick-up races. Still, some good thoughts though. Key thing is that I think only proper organisation will bring "non-fans" to the online groups. Fans of the genre and of online racing will mess around looking for software, installing, tweaking and the like, but people looking for a good product will need to be led there. That is certainly what arcade racers (particularly MS ones) are doing well at the moment. Cheers! John

Scott.... Excellent article in High Gear! I tend to believe that "racing is racing!" It doesn't matter if its a real car on a real track.....or a simulated car on a simulated track. All of the same "elements" are there for both! You could take Jeff Gordon and Mark Martin (substitute any two of your fav drivers)....put them down on your kitchen floor with two "Hot Wheels" cars.......they are "racers" and they'd find a way to have a competition right there on your floor! Put them behind a simulator...they'll have even more fun! Simulated racing on computers is here to stay! It will become a full-fledged e-sport! We're all just trying to make that happen sooner.....rather than later! Excuse me now......I think I'll wander on up to the "holodeck" and run some laps at Indy! See you guys later............ Tom Pabst

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> On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 04:48:47 -0400, "David G Fisher" >TEN and The Zone are far and away > the best ideas, particularly The Zone which is an integral part of > CPR, MTM etc and accessed from within the game. TEN is still something > N2 was bolted onto and a customer could happily play N2 for years and > never know about TEN. > A real crossover product would be, for example, if GP3 or N3/4 were to > include some _integrated_ online play, where the game would not only > detect an internet connection (or the means to make one) but upon > selecting that option would bring you into a SpyBoy like environment. >but people looking for a > good product will need to be led there. That is certainly what arcade > racers (particularly MS ones) are doing well at the moment.

I mentioned that Microprose will be using the Zone for GP500. Maybe they'll do the same for GP3. If they do and it sells as well as expected, then I can imagine very high numbers of racers, organization, and Zone tournaments and prizes such as with the MTM2 tournament.

Here's the problem: "Sim" racing has to be SERIOUS. In order for it draw the numbers you say it needs, it must reward the participant. It takes a lot more investment in a "sim" to be competitive than it does say a not so simmy racing or truck game. For the payoff be there the system in which the participant is using must be very high quality. Sim racing has more demands on the platform than an arcade style racing game. Warping and drops must be almost non existent and the races must have a fairly large field for it to be worthy of "sim" status. To date only one system was even close to this and it got unplugged. I do believe the audience is there and waiting, for what is available to this point it not cutting the mustard. Mick in Tampa http://CNSRL.COM

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> Very well put!! Just my opinion, but, the reason why the hard core Sim > drivers are reluctant in setting up a good organization is because they > would rather see someone else do it. Every time I mention the what Sim > racing can become all I get is "It's just a game", "Now go and get a > life". :-( > > Scott B. Husted has an excellent article at High Gear > > http://www.simracingnews.com/theview/ which talks about multiplayer racing's > > future. I thought I'd mention that MS just completed it's latest MTM2 > > tourney which had over 1,000 entrants and gave away to the winner a $30,000+ > > truck. This for a game which was released over a year ago. > > I agree with much of what he said and have the same hopes for online sim > > racing as he does, but some of what Scott is wishful for is actually already > > in existence. Just not so much in the strictly hard core sim community. His > > article doesn't mention what's been happening over the past couple of years > > with the with the more arcade type of titles. For example, MS's arcade > > racers such as MTM2, Motocross Madness, and now Midtown Madness have a very > > high number of players, and sponsored tournaments are regular. It's easy to > > find competitors at the Zone which is extremely well organize. Microprose is > > going to use the Zone for it's multiplayer option in GP500. > > I see companies such as MS as already headed in the direction that Scott and > > myself would like online racing to go but if it's to happen with the more > > sim oriented titles, one simple thing must occur and that is that the > > turnout for a particular sim tournament will have to be on the level of the > > MTM2 tournament I mention above. Otherwise, online sim racing will probably > > stay unorganized. It's really that simple. Online racing has been growing > > very rapidly and becoming more organized, just not so much with sim titles. > > Maybe because sim drivers are older and a little more reluctant to embrace > > something new? > > I've been racing online for two years now and what's interesting is that > > even though there are 6 billion people on the planet, I often see the same > > names pop up today that I first raced against (or discussed online racing > > with) two years ago when racing with a sim title. Again, the number of sim > > racers HAS to grow before we see professional online racing, with sponsors, > > prizes, and spectators. > > There's no reason to ignore the online arcade racing community and what it > > can teach us. It should be used as an example. As I said in another post the > > other day, the racing among the best drivers is just as difficult and > > competitive as with the pure sims, and they are just as serious and > > dedicated to their title. I say this because I've split my time over the > > past two years by racing against many of the top sim drivers (names many of > > us are familiar with), and also top arcade racers such as in the MTM2 Vegas > > Tourney where I placed tied for 5th. I mention my experience only because I > > saw NO difference in the mindset and talent of the top level, serious, > > drivers. Everyone wants the SAME things in online racing. There's no reason > > to think that as sim racers we need to invent online racing. It's already > > going along nicely with the arcade racers, and sim racers are simply lagging > > behind. I remember just a year ago that many here at r.a.s. were VERY > > skeptical about online racing and didn't seem too interested in what it > > could deliver. Today, most seem to have slowly opened up to it's > > possiblities, but we are now way behind the arcade titles in organization > > and numbers. > > David G Fisher > -- > ========================================= > Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? > ========================================= > Member of R.O.R. 1999 > http://www.pivot.net/~marknjess/ror.html > ========================================= > Racing online with the help of...... > Sim Racing Mag > http://www.simracingmag.com/ > Race Communications Association > http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html > Holodyne Engineering > Mystic Music > (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Papyrus needs to step up a little IMO. They need to put some greenbacks on the table for the NRO. They also miss out a great opportnity by not attending each and every Nascar event with a Papy tent that has at least 8 pc systems hooked up letting fans drive in an organized bracket at each venue. Up to a finally before the actaul nascar race event. This would be huge marketing here. BH

No, it doesn't have to be "serious". And no, sim racing doesn't need to have rewards. Gee, that investment you just put in should be reward enough. But nonetheless, no sim racing in general doesn't need rewards. However, high brow leagues (for whatever sim) to be successful, yes rewards, prizes, etc are needed. And no, you dont have to give out cash, etc. Many people race rc/cars and their reward is a good day of racing, a trophy, etc. I would agree there...that you need a high quality stable system before you start doing any large payouts. And no, I think that both sim racing and arcade racing demand the same type of stable platform. I've yet to see one, even the one you are referring to. Ok, perhaps not for you. But it seems many people are enjoying racing both on the NROS and through VROC/SpyBoy.

> Here's the problem: > "Sim" racing has to be SERIOUS. In order for it draw the numbers you say it needs, > it must reward the participant. It takes a lot more investment in a "sim" to be > competitive than it does say a not so simmy racing or truck game. Not true at all. I've raced againt the best in both arcade and sim racing over the past two years and I see no difference. The investment (time, skill, strategy) the better drivers put in is the same. I guarantee you a top driver in MTM2 has the same talent and abities as any top sim driver, and there are MANY more of them. I said in another post earlier this week that for every high level sim driver there are probably 1,000 arcade drivers with just as much skill. David G Fisher

Almost forgot. I can't really agree with this point. When I raced MTM2 against the top level drivers, there was almost no bumping (none intentional) even though it was an off-road race. The reason there was no bumping was because the drivers were turning lap times which were within tenths of a second of each other (just like with sims), and also because in online racing you can never be 100% sure the vehicle you are tangling with is really there (no matter how good the connection), due to warping. You couldn't take the chance because if you guessed wrong, your race was instantly over. David G Fisher

Anybody that laughs at MTM2 as a poor racing game is being unfair. It has a controllable handling model and like you said the good racers make great races. BH

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> > On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 04:48:47 -0400, "David G Fisher" > > Obviously this has an impact on the physics of driving etc, but > > fundamentally there are things which are easier to implement in an > > arcade racer than in a sim. Arcade racers tend toward "knockout" type > > one-off races, whereas to have a meaningful online and organised sim > > area it would need to incorporate a league (with all associated > > administration). Then too the bumping and boring that is part and > > parcel of an online arcade race is generally not tolerated in a sim > > race (again mirroring real life) - this too must be adminstrated and > > punishments meted out. > Almost forgot. I can't really agree with this point. When I raced MTM2 > against the top level drivers, there was almost no bumping (none > intentional) even though it was an off-road race. The reason there was no > bumping was because the drivers were turning lap times which were within > tenths of a second of each other (just like with sims), and also because

in > online racing you can never be 100% sure the vehicle you are tangling with > is really there (no matter how good the connection), due to warping. You > couldn't take the chance because if you guessed wrong, your race was > instantly over. > David G Fisher

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> > "Sim" racing has to be SERIOUS. In order for it draw the numbers you say > it needs, > > it must reward the participant. It takes a lot more investment in a "sim" > to be > > competitive than it does say a not so simmy racing or truck game. > No, it doesn't have to be "serious". And no, sim racing doesn't need to > have rewards.

The reward I was alluding to was great game play. I think the sim racing is a little more demanding. I have played "games" over the internet like R6 and it was fun, there was lag but my expectations were not high since it was a "game" and I had a blast. I enjoy NROS too, but it is not as good as the Beta system to which I become acustomed to. The current state of the NROS system is stunting the growth of the NROS badly.

>"Sim" racing has to be SERIOUS. In order for it draw the numbers you say it needs, >it must reward the participant. It takes a lot more investment in a "sim" to be >competitive than it does say a not so simmy racing or truck game. Yes a sim must reward the participant (that is true for any form of entertainment) but I disagree on all other points. For a product to be succesful it must be able to be enjoyed by those who are not serious, and believe me it takes a lot of investment of time to be good at an arcade game. There is an audience there and waiting, whether it numbers enough and is coherent enough in thinking and expectation to constitute a viable market is quite a different thing. Some people were happy to pay for the Nirvana that was Hawaii, most were not. Some like GPL's die-hard approach, others do not. We don't yet know if there is a sweet-spot, far less what it is. Cheers! John

On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:33:21 -0400, "David G Fisher"

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>> administration). Then too the bumping and boring that is part and >> parcel of an online arcade race is generally not tolerated in a sim >> race (again mirroring real life) - this too must be adminstrated and >> punishments meted out. >Almost forgot. I can't really agree with this point. When I raced MTM2 >against the top level drivers, there was almost no bumping (none >intentional) even though it was an off-road race.

True, but that was one race. My point is that in general I can join an MTM2 race on the Zone and get physical without fear of rebuke, whereas such behaviour would get you ostracised if you tried it on VROC. Cheers! John

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> On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:33:21 -0400, "David G Fisher" > >Almost forgot. I can't really agree with this point. When I raced MTM2 > >against the top level drivers, there was almost no bumping (none > >intentional) even though it was an off-road race. > True, but that was one race. My point is that in general I can join an > MTM2 race on the Zone and get physical without fear of rebuke, whereas > such behaviour would get you ostracised if you tried it on VROC.

Not one race, but all the races I had with them which probably totaled a few hundred. I should of written "even though it IS an off-road racing game". The last thing anyone wanted was to tangle with each other when the races were so tight. David G Fisher

On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:25:34 -0400, "David G Fisher" >I mentioned that Microprose will be using the Zone for GP500. Maybe they'll >do the same for GP3. If they do and it sells as well as expected, then I can >imagine very high numbers of racers, organization, and Zone tournaments and >prizes such as with the MTM2 tournament. I would imagine you're right there, provided that it's implemented well within the sim. At the moment it's still a bit tricky, since even if you implement calls to online sites from within a game you can't be sure the person is even connected to the 'net or has the ability to be. As cable-modems become more common this should be easier to do. Even without that though, if GP3 had that kind of functionality built in and customers could hit a button to be taken painlessly to an online paddock and race-arrangement area it would be a major step forward. A big selling product should bring a big online audience. Cheers! John

On Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:51:20 -0400, "David G Fisher" >Not one race, but all the races I had with them which probably totaled a few >hundred. I should of written "even though it IS an off-road racing game". >The last thing anyone wanted was to tangle with each other when the races >were so tight. The point still stands though - MTM2 on The Zone you will be allowed far more leeway for contact than you would ever be on any VROC server. You then have to effectively police that if you want to have some kind of realistic online tournament. Cheers! John

>On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:25:34 -0400, "David G Fisher" >>I mentioned that Microprose will be using the Zone for GP500. Maybe they'll >>do the same for GP3. If they do and it sells as well as expected, then I can >>imagine very high numbers of racers, organization, and Zone tournaments and

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>>prizes such as with the MTM2 tournament. >I would imagine you're right there, provided that it's implemented >well within the sim. At the moment it's still a bit tricky, since even >if you implement calls to online sites from within a game you can't be >sure the person is even connected to the 'net or has the ability to >be. As cable-modems become more common this should be easier to do. >Even without that though, if GP3 had that kind of functionality built >in and customers could hit a button to be taken painlessly to an >online paddock and race-arrangement area it would be a major step >forward. A big selling product should bring a big online audience.

I agree, that would be nice ... but what makes you guys think that GP3 even has a functioning multiplayer? AFAIK GP3 is pretty much based on GP2 engine and we all know the quality (or lack thereof) of its multiplayer features. Hena (3 more days of work and then 5 weeks of vacation!!! :)))