Track Editors-where are they?

Each time a new racing sim is released I wonder why they didn't release a track editor with it. I mean in the golf sim world we have the Jack Nicklaus line of games, all with a built-in course editor. So why aren't there ever any in a racing sim? I have heard suggestions that game makers would be sued if they gave us track editors, tho the logic here escapes me-nobody is suing Accolade because some users have created really good fascimiles of Augusta & Pebble Beach. (?) Anyone have any (good) answers? I have tons of really cool track designs in my mind and wish I could turn them into (virtual) reality. I know some of you hacker wizards are capable of getting into the guts of a game and creating a new track (via any number of dirty little tricks), but I sure would like to see an officially-sanctioned way of doing same. TIA. John DiFool

Oooooh man, I just want to make this one track I've designed for ICR2 and GPL. It'd be in the spirit of the Nburgring, but a hell of a lot scarier and hill-covered. About 6 to 7 miles long. Sharp turns, long straightaways, everything you can think of. :) Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited

But at the same time, the best golf game on the market (LinksLS99) doesn't have one. So it's just a matter of philosophy and how the company thinks. Same applies for racing simulators There is no real reason to release such a thing. It would eliminate a big potential market for expansion packs, since it's the people who download tracks who are the same that would buy an expansion pack. Of course, for JN6, the user-made course aren't as good as the track packs, so it helps. Of course everybody would be happy with Papyrus releasing their TRK and 3DO programs to create tracks. I would, I know :) (I would create the Gilles Villeneuve (3different eras) for the old and new Papyrus game engine) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

There is a really cool track editor available that work for every racing game around..... read on it costs about $8000, it comprises of SoftImage 3D, a fast PC and a Fire GL4000 card, you just need to learn to code a bit as well. (sorry!!, Tracks are pretty damn complicated is all) Please, don't mention track editors again, there are producers around, it gives them Ideas.... they don't have to make them work.... nooooooooo! -- RussellM >> Each time a new racing sim is released I wonder why >> they didn't release a track editor with it. I mean in the >> golf sim world we have the Jack Nicklaus line of games, >> all with a built-in course editor. So why aren't there ever >> any in a racing sim? >But at the same time, the best golf game on the market (LinksLS99) doesn't >have one. So it's just a matter of philosophy and how the company thinks. >Same applies for racing simulators >There is no real reason to release such a thing. It would eliminate a big >potential market for expansion packs, since it's the people who download >tracks who are the same that would buy an expansion pack. Of course, for >JN6, the user-made course aren't as good as the track packs, so it helps. >Of course everybody would be happy with Papyrus releasing their TRK and 3DO >programs to create tracks. I would, I know :) (I would create the Gilles >Villeneuve (3different eras) for the old and new Papyrus game engine) >-- >-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> >-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ >-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ >-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. >-- May the Downforce be with you... >"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

> Anyone have any (good) answers? I have tons of really >cool track designs in my mind and wish I could turn them >into (virtual) reality. I'd also like to see a decent, user friendly track editor. There was a great freeware (3rd party) editor for NFS1 which was a riot. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

>There is no real reason to release such a thing. It would eliminate a big >potential market for expansion packs, since it's the people who download >tracks who are the same that would buy an expansion pack. I agree this is their philosophy, but I find it very short-sighted. iD didn't become the premiere FPS company with such closed-minded closed-architecture thinking. With the increased replayability an editor implies you will make far more money from your orginial release than you'd ever make from an expansion track. And if you're smart and provide an upgrade path for 3rd-party tracks to your new versions you'd be laughing all the way to the bank. How many extra copies of Nascar 99 do you think Papyrus would sell if there were 500 tracks available for it, free to download from the net? Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

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> >There is no real reason to release such a thing. It would eliminate a big > >potential market for expansion packs, since it's the people who download > >tracks who are the same that would buy an expansion pack. > I agree this is their philosophy, but I find it very short-sighted. iD > didn't become the premiere FPS company with such closed-minded > closed-architecture thinking. > With the increased replayability an editor implies you will make far > more money from your orginial release than you'd ever make from an > expansion track. And if you're smart and provide an upgrade path for > 3rd-party tracks to your new versions you'd be laughing all the way to > the bank. How many extra copies of Nascar 99 do you think Papyrus > would sell if there were 500 tracks available for it, free to download > from the net?

Don't know, but ask Microsoft, seems as though their Flight Simulator has done pretty well over the years, and there's a ton of add-on's for that one -- Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

>Don't know, but ask Microsoft, seems as though their Flight Simulator >has done pretty well over the years, and there's a ton of add-on's for >that one That's true, but I do think creating modern flight-sim data is more complicated than making a race track. A track is just curves, bends, banks and hills (and a bit of scenery). Modelling a real track accurately is no small task of course, but there's no reason ordinary end-users couldn't create unlimited numbers of fictional tracks. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

I remember that :) I would love to create a track I have in my mind...approx. 14 miles long - 7 miles of it is a single, downhill straightaway (hehe...save 5th gear just for that) and the other 7 is the twistiest, scariest 7 miles of hill-climbing you've ever seen. -- Kirk Lane Tempe, AZ ICQ: 28171652 RMRL #119 >> Anyone have any (good) answers? I have tons of really >>cool track designs in my mind and wish I could turn them >>into (virtual) reality. >I'd also like to see a decent, user friendly track editor. There was a >great freeware (3rd party) editor for NFS1 which was a riot. >Joe McGinn >========================================== >Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network >[link lost in import: /***.com/] >==========================================

I think you are going to need M.C. Escher to help you design this track. If you have a 7 mile long straightaway and the whole track is only 14 miles long, the other 7 miles are going to be just as straight as the first 7 if you want it to be a circuit.... ~daxe

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> >Don't know, but ask Microsoft, seems as though their Flight Simulator > >has done pretty well over the years, and there's a ton of add-on's for > >that one > That's true, but I do think creating modern flight-sim data is more > complicated than making a race track. A track is just curves, bends, > banks and hills (and a bit of scenery). Modelling a real track > accurately is no small task of course, but there's no reason ordinary > end-users couldn't create unlimited numbers of fictional tracks.

Well, I just looked through the lists from my supplier the other day, and I think I found 15 different add-on's for MS Flightsimulator, none of which are made by MS, I bet there are plenty more out there, and MS still sells enough copies of the original sim to come up with a new one every year, so there has to be something that makes people come back for more, right ? In my opinion it has to be the way you can modify it so it never get's repetitive, and this is what appeals to so many people about Papy's products too, too bad that they don't make it easier for people like David Noonan and others to do what they are allready doing, just imagine the things that could be done with a little support from the developers (don't know how much help David got from Papy, but I don't think it was much), now how about if they now released some tools to help people create add-on's to this game engine they have here, so that when they release the next sim based on it, people have the tools and the know-how to make additions straight away, I'd say that would boost the sales a bunch, I know I will buy any sim that can be converted to touringcars, or that will provide me with tracks for an existing patch like TPTCC, in fact I just bought another copy of ICRII (I'd lost the old one) along with NR99 just to participate in the TPTCC99 series, worth every cent, and I would have bought GPL just to get the tracks for the GPL->N2/NR99 converter when David Noonan gets that one done, even if I didn't like GPL, that's a few copies right there :-) -- Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

>I would love to create a track I have in my mind...approx. 14 miles long - 7 >miles of it is a single, downhill straightaway (hehe...save 5th gear just >for that) and the other 7 is the twistiest, scariest 7 miles of >hill-climbing you've ever seen. Yeah, I have a track in mind too - there's a 7-8 mile stretch of the #1 highway here that would make for fantastic racing. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

What expansion packs??????? BGN is the only expansion ever released in the last 3 years!!!!! What they do is sell us an updated version of the game! With new graphics and slightly improved physics. Anyone see a F1RS expansion? TOCA expansion? GPL expansion? There ain't no such animal any more, extinct! buzard

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> > Each time a new racing sim is released I wonder why > > they didn't release a track editor with it. I mean in the > > golf sim world we have the Jack Nicklaus line of games, > > all with a built-in course editor. So why aren't there ever > > any in a racing sim? > But at the same time, the best golf game on the market (LinksLS99) doesn't > have one. So it's just a matter of philosophy and how the company thinks. > Same applies for racing simulators > There is no real reason to release such a thing. It would eliminate a big > potential market for expansion packs, since it's the people who download > tracks who are the same that would buy an expansion pack. Of course, for > JN6, the user-made course aren't as good as the track packs, so it helps. > Of course everybody would be happy with Papyrus releasing their TRK and 3DO > programs to create tracks. I would, I know :) (I would create the Gilles > Villeneuve (3different eras) for the old and new Papyrus game engine) > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> > -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ > -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ > -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."