I have seen the future of sim racing...

...can you spell "A-R-C-A-D-E"? Given the latest news and experience -- prelim info on the upcoming LeMans game, rumors about the next Papy NASCAR game not using GPL-style physics, and (briefly!) playing the demo of Eidos' "Official F1 Racing" -- I can only conclude that the true art of the simulation is dead and we might as well all switch to Playstations or something! Part of this is economics: it's a lot cheaper in software development expenses to skip the complex physics and simulation aspects of racing and just "cut to the chase" so to speak. Complex sims are going to sell a lot fewer copies than the jump-in-and-race games, and with so many companies producing similar titles the game dollars are getting spread that much more thinly. An easy-to-drive NASCAR game has a huge market potential, while one with a long learning curve will just not sell enough copies to turn a profit (or at least as much of a profit). IMHO, the introduction of 3D cards has sped up this trend a lot, since it is so easy now to trade realism and depth for eye candy. A hell of a lot more time is now spent getting those trick "camera angles" looking good than is spent on how the cars are to race. Some newer games now don't even have a decent***pit view, which is where I spend 100% of my time when playing GPL! The use of 3D accelerators also makes it much easier to port or co-develop for the various *** platforms, so the newer games are now developed with that in mind and the things that a PC is much better at are no longer in the game at all. Frankly, GP2 had much more depth and playability features than the latest 1999 F1 sims. BTW, this trend is not limited to sim racing. Flight sims, strategy games, and even adventure games are going down the same path -- if your 3D graphics look good, who cares about the gameplay? -- Doug Gordon Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

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> ...can you spell "A-R-C-A-D-E"? Given the latest news and experience -- > prelim info on the upcoming LeMans game, rumors about the next Papy > NASCAR game not using GPL-style physics, and (briefly!) playing the > demo of Eidos' "Official F1 Racing" -- I can only conclude that the > true art of the simulation is dead and we might as well all switch to > Playstations or something! > <snipped>

I would, sadly, have to agree with you. Just when sales of controllers that would merit in depth simulations seem to be picking up. Every man and his dog seems to have a wheel and pedal combo now - hell, I've got 2! It's a shame that people ask for realism then will complain about the lack of a techno in-game music or that it's too hard. A common complaint I seem to hear is "I drive my car everyday without crashing, so if I crash constantly in a sim it can't be realistic". That simplistic attitude drives me to despair. People dedicate massive amounts of time to FPS - easily as much as we do to our 'driving'. If a sim of the quality of GPL was more thoughtfully put together as far as attracting an audience goes, sim racing could find it's feet again. I'm sure there are plenty out there who want something meaty to get their new FF controllers into. GPL physics, but with more forgiving, recognisable 1990s cars and a game structure that caters for beginners, maybe a race driving school, would sell big time - I'm convinced of it. You don't need the vast number of makes, just a few and some recognisable tracks. At it's haghest level it could be as challenging as GPL, but at least you're not thrown into the deep end. Cheers Mark Reading, UK Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

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>....can you spell "A-R-C-A-D-E"? Given the latest news and experience -- >prelim info on the upcoming LeMans game, rumors about the next Papy >NASCAR game not using GPL-style physics, and (briefly!) playing the >demo of Eidos' "Official F1 Racing" -- I can only conclude that the >true art of the simulation is dead and we might as well all switch to >Playstations or something! >Part of this is economics: it's a lot cheaper in software development >expenses to skip the complex physics and simulation aspects of racing >and just "cut to the chase" so to speak. Complex sims are going to sell >a lot fewer copies than the jump-in-and-race games, and with so many >companies producing similar titles the game dollars are getting spread >that much more thinly. An easy-to-drive NASCAR game has a huge market >potential, while one with a long learning curve will just not sell >enough copies to turn a profit (or at least as much of a profit).

We're a niche, as i've touched on before. However, if we are abaonded for sometime, then expect a killer niche product that we're all expected to buy :P Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Dont give up hope yet... there are a few things coming in the near future which will hopefully change your mind. Although the first 1/2 of 1999 has really been pathetic for sim racers, I believe the second 1/2 will see a few improvements and into 2000. Sim racing development is NOT dead. It just seemed to be in hibernation ;) Scott PA-Scott G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com High Gear Editor - "The View" - http://www.simracingnews.com -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

if you read *** magazines, your likely to know about ganres your not interested in, but is good to have the information, PC gamer a few years back had RPG games dead in 2 years after the quality went away for a quick buck, but 2 years lator the ganre is back with a vengaence, online play has been the thing to draw mass market into a a complex genre. Sim Racing needs something to get the people e***d about it again.

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>Dont give up hope yet... there are a few things coming in the near future >which will hopefully change your mind. >Although the first 1/2 of 1999 has really been pathetic for sim racers, I >believe the second 1/2 will see a few improvements and into 2000. >Sim racing development is NOT dead. It just seemed to be in hibernation ;) >Scott >PA-Scott >G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com >High Gear Editor - "The View" - http://www.simracingnews.com >-- >Scott B. Husted >ICQ# 4395450

Just because the next Papyrus Nascar sim is NOT going to use the GPL engine, does not mean its going to be an ARCADE game. Not to mention, GP3 has been mentioned, and Rally Championship and perhaps Rally Masters are shaping up as maybe (especially the first one) to possibly b good sims...then have you have motorsims, inc which is doing an AMA and SCCA (CanAM) sims and considering their WarBirds heritage I highly doubt you will see arcade anything from them. If you even consider EA's SBK...it was a pretty good superbike SIM although multiplayer sucked in it...then there is GP500 which may or may not impress. Viper Racing was pretty darn good as far as hard-core physics goes, bit bland with only one car and all boring and unrealistic (unless you were doing a rally sim) fantasy tracks..but I suspect MGI will have learned from and make their next upcoming product even better (hey, they did a good job with the physics and feel of the car...they can concentrate on better graphics, online play, more depth, etc). So whats all this mean? It means you need to take off your silly rose-colored glasses and pay attention. Simulated racing will never be mainstream, but its not going to go away anymore than the Falcons or the Warbirds, etc are either. Not to mention its quite possible to have a game with enough depth to appeal to both the arcade racer and the hard-core junkie.

Goddamn, Scott, I sure as hell hope you're right. Mark Reading, UK Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Yeah, and......... Put yourself in a Crammond or Kaemer situation. Ok, they can probably make big bucks churning out run of the mill products. But how long will they want to do that for? They might have all the money in the world, but guess what? They can't go for a stroll down to the local games shop and buy a decent sim no matter how full their wallets are! Their interest in the job diminishes and I could see the likes of these two just handing in their resignations and going off to do something else. Like going off and starting their own Racing Sim Companies, hopefully, for example :)

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> We're a niche, as i've touched on before. > However, if we are abaonded for sometime, then expect a killer niche product > that we're all expected to buy :P > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

> ...can you spell "A-R-C-A-D-E"? Given the latest news and experience -- > prelim info on the upcoming LeMans game, rumors about the next Papy > NASCAR game not using GPL-style physics, and (briefly!) playing the > demo of Eidos' "Official F1 Racing" -- I can only conclude that the > true art of the simulation is dead and we might as well all switch to > Playstations or something! I could be wrong about this (and I'm sure you guy's will let me know if I am), but there has never been alot of great sims out at one time. Think about it, the list for great sims is short. The list of companies that make great sims is also short. Sim racing is not dead. It's just that it takes a lot of time to make a great sim.

writes

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>> ...can you spell "A-R-C-A-D-E"? Given the latest news and experience -- >> prelim info on the upcoming LeMans game, rumors about the next Papy >> NASCAR game not using GPL-style physics, and (briefly!) playing the >> demo of Eidos' "Official F1 Racing" -- I can only conclude that the >> true art of the simulation is dead and we might as well all switch to >> Playstations or something! >> <snipped> >I would, sadly, have to agree with you. Just when sales of controllers that >would merit in depth simulations seem to be picking up. Every man and his >dog seems to have a wheel and pedal combo now - hell, I've got 2! >It's a shame that people ask for realism then will complain about the lack of >a techno in-game music or that it's too hard. A common complaint I seem to >hear is "I drive my car everyday without crashing, so if I crash constantly >in a sim it can't be realistic". That simplistic attitude drives me to >despair. >People dedicate massive amounts of time to FPS - easily as much as we do to >our 'driving'. If a sim of the quality of GPL was more thoughtfully put >together as far as attracting an audience goes, sim racing could find it's >feet again. I'm sure there are plenty out there who want something meaty to >get their new FF controllers into. GPL physics, but with more forgiving, >recognisable 1990s cars and a game structure that caters for beginners, maybe >a race driving school, would sell big time - I'm convinced of it. You don't >need the vast number of makes, just a few and some recognisable tracks. At >it's haghest level it could be as challenging as GPL, but at least you're not >thrown into the deep end.

As you say it is so important, even when developing 'realistic' racing sims, to allow for beginners to get in there and play without getting frustrated. I presume one of the reasons why GPL didn't fair as well as it could would have been because new software is developed to work best on the latest technology, ie whatever high end PCs are currently out there. Without a doubt, what put a lot of people off GPL was the fact that it was so difficult 'out of the box', due partly to the fact that FPS is so important when playing this game. When I first played the game on my lower-end machine I too thought, 'Well, I've never needed to worry about frame rates higher than 25fps on any of my other racing sims so why should this one be any different?' and just thought the cars were undrivable without any consideration that upping the frame rate was going to make that much difference. It wasn't until hearing from other people that FPS was essential for this game that I went back to it after leaving it on the shelf for several months. I'm sure there were many others out there who put their's on the shelf and also advised their friends not to bother as well. Hence fewer sales than it might have and hence software companies a little more reticent to try something similar. -- Peter Ives

You're not wrong. It's just disheartening when two of the most amazing sounding products on the horizon were canned/'put on hold' - these being TAR and the -real- N3. I'm sure GP3 will be a great accomplishment, but as with the sport itself, will it be enjotable? Current F1 drivers complain that the latest cars are no fun to drive at all, so what hope does an accurate sim have? I'd rather see Crammond turn his attention to CART. Montoya was as overjoyed at how good Champ Cars were to drive compared to F1 as Zanardi was infuriated with F1 machinery. Hell, even Hill retired because he couldn't get to grips with them. Why simulate that? Mark Reading, UK Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Mark, Producing a current top of the line F1 sim would surely be a bore. You have your choice or a Ferrari or a Mclaren. Everything else would be a also ran. Joel Willstein

: Mark, : Producing a current top of the line F1 sim would surely be a bore. You : have your choice or a Ferrari or a Mclaren. Everything else would be a also : ran. But doesn't GPL have this to some extent? Everyone seems to agree that the Lotus is fastest, you have your chance in an Eagle or a Ferrari but in a "Cooper", BRM or "Murasama", you're likely to be hoping that the leader crashes out or breaks down. I don't think that is necessarily a problem. What would be a problem is that I can't see (for example) Williams saying "Oh yeah, the cars a pig, make sure you model the drastic mid-corner understeer and snap entry and exit oversteer." In modern F1, all the teams are going to be really cagey about the handling of the cars and the HPs. Still, I'd quite like a modern F1 game - the cars can't be worse to handle than the GPL cars - can they? -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

I agree, I think there are to many F1 games (most are not sims). I would like to see a good CART racing sim. Even the Trans Am racing game would be a nice change (I know there are a lot of Trans Am fans out there).

>: Mark, >: Producing a current top of the line F1 sim would surely be a bore. You >: have your choice or a Ferrari or a Mclaren. Everything else would be a also >: ran. > But doesn't GPL have this to some extent? Everyone seems to agree >that the Lotus is fastest, you have your chance in an Eagle or a >Ferrari but in a "Cooper", BRM or "Murasama", you're likely to be hoping >that the leader crashes out or breaks down. I drive a Lotus,but I've come across Brabham,Cooper and BRM drivers that qualify on thefront row just about everywhere,and are a force through out the whole race. Joel Willstein

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> Yeah, and......... > Put yourself in a Crammond or Kaemer situation. Ok, they can probably >make big bucks churning out run of the mill products. But how long will >they want to do that for? They might have all the money in the world, >but guess what? They can't go for a stroll down to the local games shop >and buy a decent sim no matter how full their wallets are! Their >interest in the job diminishes and I could see the likes of these two >just handing in their resignations and going off to do something else. >Like going off and starting their own Racing Sim Companies, hopefully, >for example :)

That's all very well, but i can't imagine too many backers stupid enough 2 put up a few million for a project that will not sell enough to be profitable. Well, aside from Eidos and Ion Storm, obviously. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Whilst "respected" magazines give racing sims low scores because of the steep learning curve and concentration required our hobby is in jeopardy. One article I read put the boots into EA Superbikes because you could crash after hald an hour of leading and lose the race. DUH! Please magzine editors, hire sim experts to test sims and leave the arcade reviews to the janitor or mailboy!

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> ...can you spell "A-R-C-A-D-E"? Given the latest news and experience -- > prelim info on the upcoming LeMans game, rumors about the next Papy > NASCAR game not using GPL-style physics, and (briefly!) playing the > demo of Eidos' "Official F1 Racing" -- I can only conclude that the > true art of the simulation is dead and we might as well all switch to > Playstations or something! > Part of this is economics: it's a lot cheaper in software development > expenses to skip the complex physics and simulation aspects of racing > and just "cut to the chase" so to speak. Complex sims are going to sell > a lot fewer copies than the jump-in-and-race games, and with so many > companies producing similar titles the game dollars are getting spread > that much more thinly. An easy-to-drive NASCAR game has a huge market > potential, while one with a long learning curve will just not sell > enough copies to turn a profit (or at least as much of a profit). > IMHO, the introduction of 3D cards has sped up this trend a lot, since > it is so easy now to trade realism and depth for eye candy. A hell of a > lot more time is now spent getting those trick "camera angles" looking > good than is spent on how the cars are to race. Some newer games now > don't even have a decent***pit view, which is where I spend 100% of > my time when playing GPL! The use of 3D accelerators also makes it much > easier to port or co-develop for the various *** platforms, so the > newer games are now developed with that in mind and the things that a > PC is much better at are no longer in the game at all. Frankly, GP2 had > much more depth and playability features than the latest 1999 F1 sims. > BTW, this trend is not limited to sim racing. Flight sims, strategy > games, and even adventure games are going down the same path -- if your > 3D graphics look good, who cares about the gameplay? > -- Doug Gordon > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Stay tuned for GP500 and AMA Superbikes. They will give the sim fans something to cheer about!

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> if you read *** magazines, your likely to know about ganres your not > interested in, but is good to have the information, PC gamer a few years > back had RPG games dead in 2 years after the quality went away for a quick > buck, but 2 years lator the ganre is back with a vengaence, online play has > been the thing to draw mass market into a a complex genre. Sim Racing needs > something to get the people e***d about it again. > >Dont give up hope yet... there are a few things coming in the near future > >which will hopefully change your mind. > >Although the first 1/2 of 1999 has really been pathetic for sim racers, I > >believe the second 1/2 will see a few improvements and into 2000. > >Sim racing development is NOT dead. It just seemed to be in hibernation ;) > >Scott > >PA-Scott > >G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com > >High Gear Editor - "The View" - http://www.simracingnews.com > >-- > >Scott B. Husted > >ICQ# 4395450

Lets not forget though that much of the GPL coding will find it's way into Papy sims for years to come. Initial investment? And maybe it's not a bad idea to test the waters with a niche product anyway. Problem is, with GPL, is it the lack of support for all 3D cards, lack of racing in F2 and F3 modes, the difficulty or the era represented that is responsible for the apparent lack of sales. I'd say these 4 things together (actually 3 if you bundle the lack of F2/F3 racing in with the difficulty factor} played a crippling role in poor sales. Especially the era. I remember my initial disinterest when I first heard about it approximately 2 years ago. I think there is some sort of subconscious association with old F1 technology = old software technology. The poor bastards will never know what they missed! :)

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> > Yeah, and......... > > Put yourself in a Crammond or Kaemer situation. Ok, they can probably > >make big bucks churning out run of the mill products. But how long will > >they want to do that for? They might have all the money in the world, > >but guess what? They can't go for a stroll down to the local games shop > >and buy a decent sim no matter how full their wallets are! Their > >interest in the job diminishes and I could see the likes of these two > >just handing in their resignations and going off to do something else. > >Like going off and starting their own Racing Sim Companies, hopefully, > >for example :) > That's all very well, but i can't imagine too many backers stupid enough 2 put > up a few million for a project that will not sell enough to be profitable. > Well, aside from Eidos and Ion Storm, obviously. > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

writes: Hmm, crashing and losing after leading for a half hour? That NEVER happens in real racing...does it? <g> You're kidding about the review, right? What did he expect, all the other racers would wait for him after he crashed? Sheesh... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Edge and PC Gamer both gave GPL scores of 90% (9/10 in edge i think. and 90% or there abouts in PC Gamer) Some of them do know what theyre doing (even though i remember Edges review of ICR2 where it said realistic games were ***compared to the likes of Ridge Racer on the playstation....doh) pez

Err... Unless that was a new review, the original review gave it a 70% in PC Gamer, with the comment "The physics are over-modeled" (oh, yeah, I get it, the game is TOO REALISTIC). Load of garbage if you ask me, but they gave NFS 3 94%, so that's obviously what they think is a good driving sim. ME >Edge and PC Gamer both gave GPL scores of 90% (9/10 in edge i think. and 90%

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>or there abouts in PC Gamer) >Some of them do know what theyre doing (even though i remember Edges review >of ICR2 where it said realistic games were ***compared to the likes of >Ridge Racer on the playstation....doh) >pez

That is PC GAMER not PC SIMS Sure, NFS "should" get a better rating than GPL in a GAME magazine. Not every Tom,***, or Harry can pick up GPL and ever make it comfortably. (I should probably add a Dave to that list too!) NFS??? Just jump in and go...that's the beauty of GAMES. If a dedicated racing mag, or another sim publication like Debrief compared the two, GPL wins hands down. and the final consideration, EA has $$ lots of em. There is an old saying in business... "It's not who you Know but who you....." dave henrie - On May 17, 1999 A Whale was killed off the coast of Washington State. The Whale was killed in the name of Tradition.....I say.... %&#& Tradition! >Err... Unless that was a new review, the original review gave it a 70% in PC >Gamer, with the comment "The physics are over-modeled" (oh, yeah, I get it, >the game is TOO REALISTIC). Load of garbage if you ask me, but they gave NFS

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>3 94%, so that's obviously what they think is a good driving sim. >ME >>Edge and PC Gamer both gave GPL scores of 90% (9/10 in edge i think. and >90% >>or there abouts in PC Gamer) >>Some of them do know what theyre doing (even though i remember Edges

review >>of ICR2 where it said realistic games were ***compared to the likes of >>Ridge Racer on the playstation....doh) >>pez

> Err... Unless that was a new review, the original review gave it a 70% in PC > Gamer, with the comment "The physics are over-modeled" (oh, yeah, I get it, > the game is TOO REALISTIC). Load of garbage if you ask me, but they gave NFS > 3 94%, so that's obviously what they think is a good driving sim. Let the confusion start. There are PC Gamer US and PC Gamer UK. I haven't read the US edition, but I find the UK version a very good magazine. And they gave GPL 94 % as far as i remember, and done nothing else than praising it.

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> ME > >Edge and PC Gamer both gave GPL scores of 90% (9/10 in edge i think. and > 90% > >or there abouts in PC Gamer) > >Some of them do know what theyre doing (even though i remember Edges review > >of ICR2 where it said realistic games were ***compared to the likes of > >Ridge Racer on the playstation....doh) > >pez

-- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying