To the "Tech" guys....GPL "hackers" and such:
I have asked this question it seems several hundred times since first
learning of GPL......driving the demo in it's first days of release. I know
Papyrus has "heard" this......and since the gpl 1.1 makes no mention of
it.......they must be either, 1-Not able to put brake lights in the gpl
program, 2-Don't understand the "need" for them in online racing with gpl.
I'm setting aside completely the "issue" of brake lights.......not "true" to
the "era" depicted with gpl, and I understand why Papyrus didn't include
them. That's not the point.
But, if we had them......online/multiplayer racing with gpl would be
incredibly better! To "satisfy" the "purists".......maybe it would be
possible to "have" that feature only when in "Multiplayer" mode?
Here's my "Challenge" to the gpl community of drivers/tech guys:
If anyone can figure out a way to put a small red brake light...probably on
the gear box case....just like it is in today's open wheel cars (road course
racing in rain/wet requires them in most series...I'm not entirely sure
about F1 since I don't follow it closely).......if you do it.....I will
purchase any 3D video card of your choice and ship it to you as a gift!
That is on my honor and I'm giving my "word"......(Papyrus...you're "out of
this deal"......you don't need a video card...lol).
I am VERY serious about this (as I am my "next" and similar request....see
separate "post"...In-car Speed Indicator).
Tom Pabst
Should GPL add brake lights for online racing?
Tom Pabst, a former SCCA national champion and instructor, proposed optional brake lights and speed cues for online GPL to compensate for the lack of depth perception and other senses on a monitor. Tim Wheatley and others called it unrealistic and unnecessary for 1967 cars, noting F1 rear lights are for visibility in rain, while John Bodin supported the idea as an option. The thread drifted into arguments about quotation-mark style, HTML posts and old drafting tactics.
Automated summary.
um..... the brake lights come on.... you react...... brake later
the car infront gets closer quicker than it was...you react..... brake later
aren't they the same?
If you stagger your position (as in do not go into a corner with your nose
tucked into a gearbox) then you'll be fine (go in just to the left or right
of the guy infront
Tim....
I'm not trying to show "disrespect" for you or your "opinion"....but it's
obvious you've never really driven a real race car. Your "points" are not
valid, except in a very limited way. The "brake light" will help all of us
to regain some of the "sense" we're giving up when simulator racing. We DO
NOT get the depth perception sense of sight.....that would make your
"statements" more valid. We need a "crutch" to help balance this "missing"
sense in online racing....!! A "brake light" does that! Or at least it
goes a long way towards doing that.
Also....TO EVERYONE ELSE READING THIS POST/STRING ON BRAKE LIGHTS:
Please don't engage in a "discussion" of the need/or not for them. That was
NOT my intention of the "post" above. If you don't "need or want"
them....then don't download the "patch" (if one is ever developed). The
rest of us can choose or not choose to race with you in online racing.
Thanks,
Tom Pabst
>um..... the brake lights come on.... you react...... brake later
>the car infront gets closer quicker than it was...you react..... brake later
>aren't they the same?
>If you stagger your position (as in do not go into a corner with your nose
>tucked into a gearbox) then you'll be fine (go in just to the left or right
>of the guy infront
But then, if I wanted to fool the person behind me into thinking that I'm
braking, I could just feather the brake pedal without actually braking.
I think thats why they don't have brake lights in F1. But I could be wrong.
Just my 2 cents.
Robert
Hull, Qubec
On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:36:44 -0400, "Robert Gravel"
>I think thats why they don't have brake lights in F1. But I could be wrong.
You'd find Ferrari would instantly have a switch to flick them on
whenever Schumi wanted to full the guy behind him...
Cheers!
John
WOW ease off! Careful mate or your bend my exhaust manifold......
What was that you said? never driven a racecar of any sort...... HMM...
Jeee... you know lots about me..... BUD.
On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:46:57 +0100, "Tim Wheatley"
>WOW ease off! Careful mate or your bend my exhaust manifold......
>What was that you said? never driven a racecar of any sort...... HMM...
>Jeee... you know lots about me..... BUD.
Tim dont worry. Tom thinks he knows everything...you cant win.
***the brakelights...that would totally ruin the whole reason why
we have a legends game!
Toms Vaporware Review
[link lost in import] or [link lost in import]
Home of the "UNBIASED" review!
Quoted text (30 lines)
>To the "Tech" guys....GPL "hackers" and such: >I have asked this question it seems several hundred times since first >learning of GPL......driving the demo in it's first days of release. I know >Papyrus has "heard" this......and since the gpl 1.1 makes no mention of >it.......they must be either, 1-Not able to put brake lights in the gpl >program, 2-Don't understand the "need" for them in online racing with gpl. >I'm setting aside completely the "issue" of brake lights.......not "true" to >the "era" depicted with gpl, and I understand why Papyrus didn't include >them. That's not the point. >But, if we had them......online/multiplayer racing with gpl would be >incredibly better! To "satisfy" the "purists".......maybe it would be >possible to "have" that feature only when in "Multiplayer" mode? >Here's my "Challenge" to the gpl community of drivers/tech guys: >If anyone can figure out a way to put a small red brake light...probably on >the gear box case....just like it is in today's open wheel cars (road course >racing in rain/wet requires them in most series...I'm not entirely sure >about F1 since I don't follow it closely).......if you do it.....I will >purchase any 3D video card of your choice and ship it to you as a gift! >That is on my honor and I'm giving my "word"......(Papyrus...you're "out of >this deal"......you don't need a video card...lol). >I am VERY serious about this (as I am my "next" and similar request....see >separate "post"...In-car Speed Indicator). >Tom PabstQuoted text (30 lines)
>To the "Tech" guys....GPL "hackers" and such: >I have asked this question it seems several hundred times since first >learning of GPL......driving the demo in it's first days of release. I know >Papyrus has "heard" this......and since the gpl 1.1 makes no mention of >it.......they must be either, 1-Not able to put brake lights in the gpl >program, 2-Don't understand the "need" for them in online racing with gpl. >I'm setting aside completely the "issue" of brake lights.......not "true" to >the "era" depicted with gpl, and I understand why Papyrus didn't include >them. That's not the point. >But, if we had them......online/multiplayer racing with gpl would be >incredibly better! To "satisfy" the "purists".......maybe it would be >possible to "have" that feature only when in "Multiplayer" mode? >Here's my "Challenge" to the gpl community of drivers/tech guys: >If anyone can figure out a way to put a small red brake light...probably on >the gear box case....just like it is in today's open wheel cars (road course >racing in rain/wet requires them in most series...I'm not entirely sure >about F1 since I don't follow it closely).......if you do it.....I will >purchase any 3D video card of your choice and ship it to you as a gift! >That is on my honor and I'm giving my "word"......(Papyrus...you're "out of >this deal"......you don't need a video card...lol). >I am VERY serious about this (as I am my "next" and similar request....see >separate "post"...In-car Speed Indicator). >Tom PabstIt is really nice in SCGT to have brake lights. . .
>To the "Tech" guys....GPL "hackers" and such:
>I have asked this question it seems several hundred times since first
>learning of GPL......driving the demo in it's first days of release. I know
>Papyrus has "heard" this......and since the gpl 1.1 makes no mention of
>it.......they must be either, 1-Not able to put brake lights in the gpl
>program, 2-Don't understand the "need" for them in online racing with gpl.
>I'm setting aside completely the "issue" of brake lights.......not "true" to
course
Quoted text (11 lines)
>the "era" depicted with gpl, and I understand why Papyrus didn't include >them. That's not the point. >But, if we had them......online/multiplayer racing with gpl would be >incredibly better! To "satisfy" the "purists".......maybe it would be >possible to "have" that feature only when in "Multiplayer" mode? >Here's my "Challenge" to the gpl community of drivers/tech guys: >If anyone can figure out a way to put a small red brake light...probably on >the gear box case....just like it is in today's open wheel cars (roadQuoted text (10 lines)
>racing in rain/wet requires them in most series...I'm not entirely sure >about F1 since I don't follow it closely).......if you do it.....I will >purchase any 3D video card of your choice and ship it to you as a gift! >That is on my honor and I'm giving my "word"......(Papyrus...you're "out of >this deal"......you don't need a video card...lol). >I am VERY serious about this (as I am my "next" and similar request....see >separate "post"...In-car Speed Indicator). >Tom Pabst"Gee" maybe for "all" us that don't "want" brake lights some "***er" out there
could code or program or develope or write or smoke up an "alternative"! How
about a "big" pillow "tied" onto the gearbox "with" a piece of rope?!!? Or
"perhaps" a Wylie Coyote "type" big 'ol rear-end spring! From the "Acme"
Spring Co.!!!
Boing!
Boing!
Boing!
A Parachute For Braking!!! You'd "see" the chute and "you'd" think
...something... must be going "on" up ahead!!!
No, I'm not a "real" "race" "car" hero but guess what I saw today at the
Festival Turn at PIR today Tom? Real racers with brake lights running into
each other! "Golly", I wonder if that's part of racing?
Boing.
This is really funny Mtanker!! ;O) I like it!! ;O) Again.. Boing! Boing!
Cheers Thom_j.
I'm pretty sure that F1 only uses them in the wet. At least, that's the only
time that I notice them.
Mikey the Slowpoke
>But then, if I wanted to fool the person behind me into thinking that I'm
>braking, I could just feather the brake pedal without actually braking.
>I think thats why they don't have brake lights in F1. But I could be wrong.
>Just my 2 cents.
>Robert
>Hull, Qubec
I don't think they are brake lights, just high intensity lights which the
drivers use to see other cars through the spray, they are permanently on in
poor visibilty.
--
Ian Parker
> I'm pretty sure that F1 only uses them in the wet. At least, that's the
only
> time that I notice them.
> Mikey the Slowpoke
> >But then, if I wanted to fool the person behind me into thinking that I'm
> >braking, I could just feather the brake pedal without actually braking.
> >I think thats why they don't have brake lights in F1. But I could be
> wrong.
> >Just my 2 cents.
> >Robert
> >Hull, Qubec
They use high intensith rear lights in the wet but they are not brake
lights.
Mark
> I'm pretty sure that F1 only uses them in the wet. At least, that's the only
Quoted text (16 lines)
> time that I notice them. > Mikey the Slowpoke > >But then, if I wanted to fool the person behind me into thinking that I'm > >braking, I could just feather the brake pedal without actually braking. > >I think thats why they don't have brake lights in F1. But I could be > wrong. > >Just my 2 cents. > >Robert > >Hull, QubecYou might as well have been making a post about the IRL, Tom -- it
seems that everybody missed the point entirely. <G>
I agree with you that a "cheat" like brake lights would help immensely
in a sim -- in a 2D environment (i.e., our monitors) we're deprived of
TRUE 3D vision, which means that perspective, parallax, etc., cannot
come into play to help us "read" the relative distance, closing rate,
etc., as well as we could in real life. I'm guessing that we could
SEE that the car in front was braking with brake lights long before we
would NOTICE that the distance was closing, and in a simulation (where
you already have limited feedback anyway), things like this could
prove to be very helpful.
Put me down as one who agrees with you that this would be a great
option. Ditto the speed indicator -- I never even use the tach; I go
simply on engine note, and I find that in games (sim) that show me a
speed indication, I can set up my corner entry speed (and observe my
braking effectiveness) much more consistently, which means I'm turning
fast laps more quickly. Viper Racing comes to mind here. Something
like that which could be toggled off or on depending on your personal
preference would be great for GPL. They give us frame rate on the fly
-- why not a speed indicator, too???
-- JB
Quoted text (30 lines)
>To the "Tech" guys....GPL "hackers" and such: >I have asked this question it seems several hundred times since first >learning of GPL......driving the demo in it's first days of release. I know >Papyrus has "heard" this......and since the gpl 1.1 makes no mention of >it.......they must be either, 1-Not able to put brake lights in the gpl >program, 2-Don't understand the "need" for them in online racing with gpl. >I'm setting aside completely the "issue" of brake lights.......not "true" to >the "era" depicted with gpl, and I understand why Papyrus didn't include >them. That's not the point. >But, if we had them......online/multiplayer racing with gpl would be >incredibly better! To "satisfy" the "purists".......maybe it would be >possible to "have" that feature only when in "Multiplayer" mode? >Here's my "Challenge" to the gpl community of drivers/tech guys: >If anyone can figure out a way to put a small red brake light...probably on >the gear box case....just like it is in today's open wheel cars (road course >racing in rain/wet requires them in most series...I'm not entirely sure >about F1 since I don't follow it closely).......if you do it.....I will >purchase any 3D video card of your choice and ship it to you as a gift! >That is on my honor and I'm giving my "word"......(Papyrus...you're "out of >this deal"......you don't need a video card...lol). >I am VERY serious about this (as I am my "next" and similar request....see >separate "post"...In-car Speed Indicator). >Tom PabstAgreed! Makes it very easy when you're fast and in the lead to see
when a lapped car is braking WAY too early in order to take proper
evasive action.
-- JB
Quoted text (33 lines)
>>To the "Tech" guys....GPL "hackers" and such: >>I have asked this question it seems several hundred times since first >>learning of GPL......driving the demo in it's first days of release. I >know >>Papyrus has "heard" this......and since the gpl 1.1 makes no mention of >>it.......they must be either, 1-Not able to put brake lights in the gpl >>program, 2-Don't understand the "need" for them in online racing with gpl. >>I'm setting aside completely the "issue" of brake lights.......not "true" >to >>the "era" depicted with gpl, and I understand why Papyrus didn't include >>them. That's not the point. >>But, if we had them......online/multiplayer racing with gpl would be >>incredibly better! To "satisfy" the "purists".......maybe it would be >>possible to "have" that feature only when in "Multiplayer" mode? >>Here's my "Challenge" to the gpl community of drivers/tech guys: >>If anyone can figure out a way to put a small red brake light...probably on >>the gear box case....just like it is in today's open wheel cars (road >course >>racing in rain/wet requires them in most series...I'm not entirely sure >>about F1 since I don't follow it closely).......if you do it.....I will >>purchase any 3D video card of your choice and ship it to you as a gift! >>That is on my honor and I'm giving my "word"......(Papyrus...you're "out of >>this deal"......you don't need a video card...lol). >>I am VERY serious about this (as I am my "next" and similar request....see >>separate "post"...In-car Speed Indicator). >>Tom Pabst>You might as well have been making a post about the IRL, Tom -- it
>seems that everybody missed the point entirely. <G>
You shouldn't imagine that because people don't agree with the point
that they don't understand it. It's well understood, just not
everyone's cup of tea apparently.
Cheers!
John
Thank you John, you put it in a more "succinct" manner than I did.....but
you are "exactly" on target with what I had in my mind when I wrote the post
above about brake lights and speed indicators. I read with interest the
word "cheat"......in the context you used it.....I guess it is a "cheat" to
some degree. Whether its a "cheat" or a "driving aid" I guess doesn't
matter......it will make online racing with gpl more "fun" and with less
"car contact"....so that's my goal.
TP
Quoted text (24 lines)
>You might as well have been making a post about the IRL, Tom -- it >seems that everybody missed the point entirely. <G> >I agree with you that a "cheat" like brake lights would help immensely >in a sim -- in a 2D environment (i.e., our monitors) we're deprived of >TRUE 3D vision, which means that perspective, parallax, etc., cannot >come into play to help us "read" the relative distance, closing rate, >etc., as well as we could in real life. I'm guessing that we could >SEE that the car in front was braking with brake lights long before we >would NOTICE that the distance was closing, and in a simulation (where >you already have limited feedback anyway), things like this could >prove to be very helpful. >Put me down as one who agrees with you that this would be a great >option. Ditto the speed indicator -- I never even use the tach; I go >simply on engine note, and I find that in games (sim) that show me a >speed indication, I can set up my corner entry speed (and observe my >braking effectiveness) much more consistently, which means I'm turning >fast laps more quickly. Viper Racing comes to mind here. Something >like that which could be toggled off or on depending on your personal >preference would be great for GPL. They give us frame rate on the fly >-- why not a speed indicator, too??? >-- JBSorry about that.......I tend to use "quotes" more in newsgroup posts where
the use of HTML rich text is discouraged......and therefore there's a lack
of tools to highlight or emphasize words. When I use a "quotation" around a
word it's meant to emphasize the word....or the point. I could use *star*
marks as well.....which I've seen done quite often. I agree with you
though, the "quotes" tend to be *distracting* for the eyes....I'll try to
change that bad habit. Thank you for the feedback.
TP
Jason...
1. The Tom Pabst that you allege "thinks he knows everything" (Tom's
Hardware) is NOT the same Tom Pabst that initiated this thread.
2. As the Tom Pabst that initiated this thread is a two-time SCCA National
Champion, former BMW factory team driver, and SCCA competition license
instructor, I would certainly argue that he knows a thing or two more about
racing then virtually anybody that sets foot in this newsgroup.
3. I would also argue that some of that wealth of racing experience
translates nicely to sim racing.
4. Based on the flip, obnoxious way that you and others responded to Tom's
posts, I'd be willing to bet that Tom probably turned his first wheel in a
race car about the time you and your peers climbed aboard your first
tricycles..
Tom is an avid sim racing enthusiast and makes very meaningful contributions
to the community by publishing columns, offering his services
as a sim racing instructor, and organizing sim racing events and leagues.
When you, or any of the others, can match Tom's credentials let us know.
Until then, work on disagreeing in a more courteous manner and in a manner
that better reflects your expertise relative to Tom's.
Jack Rambo
www.RaceLive.com/GPaL
>WOW ease off! Careful mate or your bend my exhaust manifold......
>What was that you said? never driven a racecar of any sort...... HMM...
>Jeee... you know lots about me..... BUD.
Tim.....
I'm very sorry.
I have not "visited" this newsgroup very often over the last few years I've
been involved with online sim racing. I'm used to the newsgroups on TEN and
a few others where almost everyone is an American....or from the USA. I
totally forgot that many of the people who contribute to this newsgroup are
NOT Americans.....and have often a different "slant" or meaning to sentences
and words than I have. At first reading, I took your "post" to be
sarcastic....and upon re-reading it this morning.....I realize that you
weren't intending to be "sarcastic" in any way.
I apologize to you.
And, I apologize to everyone one else.....in advance......if/when when I do
this again.
Regards,
Tom Pabst
Since the first time I played GP2 I was frustrated by the complete
lack of sensory feedback, from g force, through the wheel,
the lack of depth perception, and sense of speed.
ANYTHING that can give me information about what's going on with the
car would be welcome, regardless of whether or not it's realistic in
terms of the "sim". I would like to go one step further and have a
real time bar graph somewhere on the screen to indicate tire
traction, so that you could tell when you were approaching the
cornering and braking limits of the tires.
Don Scurlock
Vancouver, B.C.
it's not a problem for me.... but i think we started an argument for others
:o(
Yep, I was reading the posts, and it seemed really strange where he placed
the quotes, there are way too many.
- Alien
They do this in real life. My dad used to race sedans and he would tap the
brakes just slightly going down the front stretch to try to get the guy out
of the draft. Same in open wheel cars...try throwing up your hand all of a
sudden, they will get off your tail in a heart beat and you can normally get
him out of your draft. Its all mind games out there. If someone wants to
feather the brakes, let him, just pass him and do the same to him. Tom
wasn't getting into a discussion of why they are good and bad, he just wants
them which is a VERY good idea and would make online racing much more
enjoyable. Sorry for running on and on but I would also like to see this
made.
Jesse
>But then, if I wanted to fool the person behind me into thinking that I'm
>braking, I could just feather the brake pedal without actually braking.
>I think thats why they don't have brake lights in F1. But I could be wrong.
>Just my 2 cents.
>Robert
>Hull, Qubec
Well said jack
Ross
Jack Rambo a crit dans le message ...
contributions
Quoted text (19 lines)
>Jason... >1. The Tom Pabst that you allege "thinks he knows everything" (Tom's >Hardware) is NOT the same Tom Pabst that initiated this thread. >2. As the Tom Pabst that initiated this thread is a two-time SCCA National >Champion, former BMW factory team driver, and SCCA competition license >instructor, I would certainly argue that he knows a thing or two more about >racing then virtually anybody that sets foot in this newsgroup. >3. I would also argue that some of that wealth of racing experience >translates nicely to sim racing. >4. Based on the flip, obnoxious way that you and others responded to Tom's >posts, I'd be willing to bet that Tom probably turned his first wheel in a >race car about the time you and your peers climbed aboard your first >tricycles.. >Tom is an avid sim racing enthusiast and makes very meaningfulQuoted text (10 lines)
>to the community by publishing columns, offering his services >as a sim racing instructor, and organizing sim racing events and leagues. >When you, or any of the others, can match Tom's credentials let us know. >Until then, work on disagreeing in a more courteous manner and in a manner >that better reflects your expertise relative to Tom's. >Jack Rambo >www.RaceLive.com/GPaLYeah,lets put turn signals on the cars too,so that ppl know when we are
turning into the pit's.........c'mon seriouslly!!!!
> Thank you John, you put it in a more "succinct" manner than I did.....but
> you are "exactly" on target with what I had in my mind when I wrote the post
> above about brake lights and speed indicators. I read with interest the
> word "cheat"......in the context you used it.....I guess it is a "cheat" to
Quoted text (32 lines)
> some degree. Whether its a "cheat" or a "driving aid" I guess doesn't > matter......it will make online racing with gpl more "fun" and with less > "car contact"....so that's my goal. > TP > >You might as well have been making a post about the IRL, Tom -- it > >seems that everybody missed the point entirely. <G> > >I agree with you that a "cheat" like brake lights would help immensely > >in a sim -- in a 2D environment (i.e., our monitors) we're deprived of > >TRUE 3D vision, which means that perspective, parallax, etc., cannot > >come into play to help us "read" the relative distance, closing rate, > >etc., as well as we could in real life. I'm guessing that we could > >SEE that the car in front was braking with brake lights long before we > >would NOTICE that the distance was closing, and in a simulation (where > >you already have limited feedback anyway), things like this could > >prove to be very helpful. > >Put me down as one who agrees with you that this would be a great > >option. Ditto the speed indicator -- I never even use the tach; I go > >simply on engine note, and I find that in games (sim) that show me a > >speed indication, I can set up my corner entry speed (and observe my > >braking effectiveness) much more consistently, which means I'm turning > >fast laps more quickly. Viper Racing comes to mind here. Something > >like that which could be toggled off or on depending on your personal > >preference would be great for GPL. They give us frame rate on the fly > >-- why not a speed indicator, too??? > >-- JBTom,
You're quite welcome -- everything you proposed makes a lot of sense.
Even if it wasn't accurate for the era that's being modeled, there's
no reason it can't be included as an option. SCGT and Viper Racing
include ABS, for example, which isn't always 100% accurate for the
cars being modeled. It's a nice option to have available, though, and
if you decide not to use those kinds of options in the name of
authenticity, then that's all well and good, but it would also be nice
to have the choice in the first place.
As far as cost and difficulty, you would only be talking about the
addition of a few lines of code to display what info is already being
calculated/tabulated in the sim's physics model anyway. Your car's
speed and the AI's braking inputs are already taken into account in
the sim already, so displaying this info is just a matter of adding
lines of code to display the pixels or digits on the screen. It is
do-able, and it would be a nice option to have brake lights and speed
indicators available.
Thanks for your input on this -- hopefully it will get people
thinking, rather than sniping.
-- John Bodin
Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine
http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/
Quoted text (36 lines)
>Thank you John, you put it in a more "succinct" manner than I did.....but >you are "exactly" on target with what I had in my mind when I wrote the post >above about brake lights and speed indicators. I read with interest the >word "cheat"......in the context you used it.....I guess it is a "cheat" to >some degree. Whether its a "cheat" or a "driving aid" I guess doesn't >matter......it will make online racing with gpl more "fun" and with less >"car contact"....so that's my goal. >TP >>You might as well have been making a post about the IRL, Tom -- it >>seems that everybody missed the point entirely. <G> >>I agree with you that a "cheat" like brake lights would help immensely >>in a sim -- in a 2D environment (i.e., our monitors) we're deprived of >>TRUE 3D vision, which means that perspective, parallax, etc., cannot >>come into play to help us "read" the relative distance, closing rate, >>etc., as well as we could in real life. I'm guessing that we could >>SEE that the car in front was braking with brake lights long before we >>would NOTICE that the distance was closing, and in a simulation (where >>you already have limited feedback anyway), things like this could >>prove to be very helpful. >>Put me down as one who agrees with you that this would be a great >>option. Ditto the speed indicator -- I never even use the tach; I go >>simply on engine note, and I find that in games (sim) that show me a >>speed indication, I can set up my corner entry speed (and observe my >>braking effectiveness) much more consistently, which means I'm turning >>fast laps more quickly. Viper Racing comes to mind here. Something >>like that which could be toggled off or on depending on your personal >>preference would be great for GPL. They give us frame rate on the fly >>-- why not a speed indicator, too??? >>-- JBOn Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:02:24 +0100, "Ian Parker"
>I don't think they are brake lights, just high intensity lights which the
>drivers use to see other cars through the spray, they are permanently on in
>poor visibilty.
You're right.
It can be incredibly difficult to see cars in front when it's raining
in F1. At those speeds, with all that spray, you can often be in zero
visibility.
Having a bright light at the back of each car can help the drivers
behind make out the cars in front, despite all the spray.
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
No offence, but he must be ancient if that's true...
I didn't see anybody claiming that this was a _bad_ idea of his. I
simply don't think it would work, as it would get in the way on
multiplayer races. I have explained why this is so in a previous
message.
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
Quoted text (15 lines)
>>No insult intended, but do you have a problem with quoting? Your >>messages are FILLED with "" and "" in places where they shouldn't >>be... >>The Excelsior >>"ICQ #40620378" >Sorry about that.......I tend to use "quotes" more in newsgroup posts where >the use of HTML rich text is discouraged......and therefore there's a lack >of tools to highlight or emphasize words. When I use a "quotation" around a >word it's meant to emphasize the word....or the point. I could use *star* >marks as well.....which I've seen done quite often. I agree with you >though, the "quotes" tend to be *distracting* for the eyes....I'll try to >change that bad habit. Thank you for the feedback.Of course it is. But those cars were 'designed' to have brake light,
and so everybody will be expecting them, including multiplayers.
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
>This is really funny Mtanker!! ;O) I like it!! ;O) Again.. Boing! Boing!
>Cheers Thom_j.
TJ is having another one of his funny moods!
;-)
Keep em' coming!
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
Nascar Racing 1 and 2 are for you then. Constant updates on everything
from engine temperate, revs per minute, tyre compound and temperature,
etc.
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
>Put me down as one who agrees with you that this would be a great
>option. Ditto the speed indicator -- I never even use the tach; I go
>simply on engine note, and I find that in games (sim) that show me a
>speed indication, I can set up my corner entry speed (and observe my
>braking effectiveness) much more consistently, which means I'm turning
>fast laps more quickly.
I agree about a speed indicator. We have one in the external view...
Good question. Anybody?
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
Quoted text (7 lines)
>Thank you John, you put it in a more "succinct" manner than I did.....but >you are "exactly" on target with what I had in my mind when I wrote the post >above about brake lights and speed indicators. I read with interest the >word "cheat"......in the context you used it.....I guess it is a "cheat" to >some degree. Whether its a "cheat" or a "driving aid" I guess doesn't >matter......it will make online racing with gpl more "fun" and with less >"car contact"....so that's my goal.On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 23:00:57 -0400, "Jesse Black"
>They do this in real life. My dad used to race sedans and he would tap the
>brakes just slightly going down the front stretch to try to get the guy out
>of the draft. Same in open wheel cars...try throwing up your hand all of a
>sudden, they will get off your tail in a heart beat and you can normally get
>him out of your draft.
Anyone who stuck their hand up to get someone out of the draft would
likely end up with a sore face in the pits - that is a VERY dangerous
thing to do. Brake testing, lifting etc is dangerous but an accepted
part of racing, but putting your hand up in the air is a safety
warning - "my car is damaged, I'm no longer racing, please don't hit
me". Using that as a racing tactic takes the "sport" out of
Motorsport.
You would, others wouldn't. Personally I think it's an awful idea, but
then I don't have any problem with depth perception or knowing how far
behind I am or what my closure speed is. If you don't know when the
guy in front of you starts braking for the corner and you run up his
chuff it's not because of depth perception, it's because you didn't
err on the side of caution as drivers IRL have to. Getting a gearbox
in the face will tend to be a strong reminder.
Adding a brake light will only allow additional information for the
guy behind to make the pass, waiting until the person in front brakes
before committing (particularly true for those driving in arcade view,
where they can see the brake lights while alongside).
In any case, think about the issues of latency, differing braking
ability & reaction time from seeing brake lights. Do you really think
that if you were following me and I jumped on the brakes you would be
able to react in time? Not only in time, but under control? Not a
chance. If you were far enough back to react you'd be far enough back
to avoid me anyway.
The problem which causes these shunts is lack of race awareness and
lack of respect for other drivers, not a lack of information on what
others are doing. There are certain drivers with whom I will happily
_race_, brake-testing them, running close, side-by-side through
corners etc, because I know they expect and allow for these things.
Also if I get it wrong and brake too late I will spin the car rather
than slide into them - that's my mistake. OTOH there are drivers, many
of them very fast drivers, where as soon as they appear in my mirrors
I'm resigned to a trip into the wall.
If people want to avoid accidents, avoid contact. Practice braking
offline into corners, know the braking points from either side of the
track, accept that if you brake too late you should try to avoid an
accident first and foremost, even if it does mean your quarry escapes.
Brake lights could be possible, may be an idea but in no way will
solve the issues put forward here. They'll be another racing tactic
and we'll be back to wondering why people always have T1 pile ups.
Cheers!
John
On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:12:34 -0700, "Avetikus"
>I'm pretty sure that F1 only uses them in the wet. At least, that's the only
>time that I notice them.
They are not braking lights, they are just to show where the car is
when the there is too much water or poor visibility
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>Anyone who stuck their hand up to get someone out of the draft would
>likely end up with a sore face in the pits - that is a VERY dangerous
>thing to do. Brake testing, lifting etc is dangerous but an accepted
>part of racing,
Didn't one of the McLarens do this about a year ago (possibly a litte
longer), in F1, and caused M. Shumacker to smash into the back of him,
taking of the Ferrari's right front wheel?
Michael got out of his car in the pit line and tried to start a fight
in the garage! Typical that my video recorder cut out just minutes
before hand...
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 23:00:57 -0400, "Jesse Black"
Reminds me of a Nascar race I saw on SKY a while ago. The two lead
cars were far away from the rest of the pack, and it seems that for
lap after lap the second place car would just stick in the draft of
the car infront. Every time the car behind tried to overtake however,
the car infront would also increase it's power, and would remain in
first position.
It had the commentators confused for a while, until they figured that
obviously the car in front wasn't flooring it, so that at precisely
the right moment he would still have power behind him.
It made for an exciting race!
Shame we don't get more of Nascar in this country.
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
Quoted text (10 lines)
>They do this in real life. My dad used to race sedans and he would tap the >brakes just slightly going down the front stretch to try to get the guy out >of the draft. Same in open wheel cars...try throwing up your hand all of a >sudden, they will get off your tail in a heart beat and you can normally get >him out of your draft. Its all mind games out there. If someone wants to >feather the brakes, let him, just pass him and do the same to him. Tom >wasn't getting into a discussion of why they are good and bad, he just wants >them which is a VERY good idea and would make online racing much more >enjoyable. Sorry for running on and on but I would also like to see this >made.Quoted text (8 lines)
>You're quite welcome -- everything you proposed makes a lot of sense. >Even if it wasn't accurate for the era that's being modeled, there's >no reason it can't be included as an option. SCGT and Viper Racing >include ABS, for example, which isn't always 100% accurate for the >cars being modeled. It's a nice option to have available, though, and >if you decide not to use those kinds of options in the name of >authenticity, then that's all well and good, but it would also be nice >to have the choice in the first place.You are refering to Coulthard in Belgium last year. The guy never raised his
arm at all. If he had done so it wouldn't have made a blind bit of
difference. Schumacher never even saw where the Maclaren was due to the
blanket of spray in front of him.
Mark
Quoted text (16 lines)
> >Anyone who stuck their hand up to get someone out of the draft would > >likely end up with a sore face in the pits - that is a VERY dangerous > >thing to do. Brake testing, lifting etc is dangerous but an accepted > >part of racing, > Didn't one of the McLarens do this about a year ago (possibly a litte > longer), in F1, and caused M. Shumacker to smash into the back of him, > taking of the Ferrari's right front wheel? > Michael got out of his car in the pit line and tried to start a fight > in the garage! Typical that my video recorder cut out just minutes > before hand... > The Excelsior > "ICQ #40620378"Quoted text (12 lines)
>>Tom is an avid sim racing enthusiast and makes very meaningful >contributions >>to the community by publishing columns, offering his services >>as a sim racing instructor, and organizing sim racing events and leagues. >>When you, or any of the others, can match Tom's credentials let us know. >>Until then, work on disagreeing in a more courteous manner and in a manner >>that better reflects your expertise relative to Tom's. >>Jack Rambo >>www.RaceLive.com/GPaLLOLOLOLOL ...... just been on VROC and got wrecked? thought so...
On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:09:17 -0400, Michael Barlow
What?! You managed to run as close as that without brake lights?! How
did you manage it? :-)
That is _exactly_ the point I was making, and I have had races like
that many times - primarily with Mike Laskey, Doug Arnao or other
people who have actual racetrack experience. In these races the
hallmark was that each driver anticipated the things that were likely
to happen and allowed for them. I have many replays saved of racing
Mike Laskey, one where I was chasing him around Zandvoort and the
other where he was chasing me around Watkins Glen. At Zandvoort I
could brake much deeper than him into Tarzan, and on two or three
occasions I had to put the car into a slide to avoid hitting him as he
slowed more rapidly than I expected. At Watkins Glen he was easily a
second a lap faster than me, I jumped him at the start and he was
_glued_ to my exhaust for the next 10 laps. I brake-tested him, lifted
on straights, varied braking points, switched lines - _everything_ to
keep him behind and not once did he hit me. A couple of times he got a
bit crossed up trying to avoid me, but the next time around he took a
different line and adapted to my tactics.
I am sure that with 99% of drivers we would both have been picking
ourselves out of the fence within the first lap.
The point is that when you're coming up to Tarzan at 180mph you _know_
the guy in front is going to brake. A brake light isn't required to
tell you that. The only way to avoid these accidents is to have
respect for other people's position on the race track, accept that you
have no god-given right to be in front of someone even if you're
faster, and WAIT for, WORK for, your opportunity then make it count.
I utterly adore those close races where you spend almost the whole
race fighting with someone - unfortunately I've become a bit tired of
the whole online racing idea because it happens so rarely. There are
so many accidents that fields quickly get spread out, and I find
myself slowing down to wait for someone to fight with! If racing in
real life I'd want 100hp more than anyone else and a boring drive to
an easy win - online is pure fun, and I'd far prefer a pitched 20 lap
battle for last than cruising round half a lap in the lead.
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (11 lines)
>I ran a race at Kyalomi yesterday on GSB with >a bunch of other online drivers. JV and I ran just inches from each >others nose/tail pipes. we did this for 9 consecutive laps. >Each and every corner we came to it was as if I was racing against my own >mirror image. I swear that at a couple corners while running at top speed >we both braked at the same time and not closing or losing more then a half >inch distance between us. >With that in mind, I'll assume you have never had >such a close race and don't dare to ride that close because you don't have >the reaction time or the confidence needed. That is the only concept >that I can come up with as to why you said what you have.Quoted text (8 lines)
>>Anyone who stuck their hand up to get someone out of the draft would >>likely end up with a sore face in the pits - that is a VERY dangerous >>thing to do. Brake testing, lifting etc is dangerous but an accepted >>part of racing, >Didn't one of the McLarens do this about a year ago (possibly a litte >longer), in F1, and caused M. Shumacker to smash into the back of him, >taking of the Ferrari's right front wheel?TW? If we have brake lights online for Gpl racing; Will we
have turn signals, mudd flaps, FM stereo radio with a fox
tail on the antenna too? ;O) Just Funnin' !!
Thom_j.
Wow.....I didn't expect this much "response" to what I considered an "obvious"
benefit.
Cable internet connections are great....except when they don't work! And my
cable operator has been "down" since Sunday afternoon....it just came back up
last night. There's over 70 "replies" in this string alone....guess I have some
reading to do?
I think I should "respond" when and where needed in a single post......to save
time and space.
Be back in a couple hours.....lol.
Tom Pabst
Quoted text (11 lines)
>>You're quite welcome -- everything you proposed makes a lot of sense. >>Even if it wasn't accurate for the era that's being modeled, there's >>no reason it can't be included as an option. SCGT and Viper Racing >>include ABS, for example, which isn't always 100% accurate for the >>cars being modeled. It's a nice option to have available, though, and >>if you decide not to use those kinds of options in the name of >>authenticity, then that's all well and good, but it would also be nice >>to have the choice in the first place. >True, but these options hardly effect multiplayer races in the same >way that brake lights would on GPL cars...it was Estoril (Portugal) , not Barcelona (Spain)
McKafre De La Rosa
Quoted text (9 lines)
>TW? If we have brake lights online for Gpl racing; Will we >have turn signals, mudd flaps, FM stereo radio with a fox >tail on the antenna too? ;O) Just Funnin' !! >Thom_j. >> LOLOLOLOL ...... just been on VROC and got wrecked? thought so...>You don't find ABS to be a HUGE help?? Gimme a break. ABS is more of
>an aid than brake lights would ever be, I think, and yet it's nice to
>have it for those who prefer it or need it.
The closest thing we have to ABS in GPL is the braking help, which
TOTALLY sucks. I _never_ use it. Braking distances are far too long,
and the car often tends to sway off the racing line when using it.
As for _true_ ABS, of course it helps, but why would we want it in
GPL? GPL is supposed to be about authenticity. Brake lights and ABS
removes that and adds an 'arcade' feel to the game.
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:35:06 +0100, "Mark Seery"
>You are refering to Coulthard in Belgium last year. The guy never raised his
>arm at all. If he had done so it wouldn't have made a blind bit of
>difference. Schumacher never even saw where the Maclaren was due to the
>blanket of spray in front of him.
I didn't say he raised his arm. He lifted his foot off the floor...
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
Sorry for the confusion but you never stared anything specifically. I made
an assumption that you was on about this, following on from the previous
post ;-)
Mark
> On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:35:06 +0100, "Mark Seery"
> >You are refering to Coulthard in Belgium last year. The guy never raised his
Quoted text (9 lines)
> >arm at all. If he had done so it wouldn't have made a blind bit of > >difference. Schumacher never even saw where the Maclaren was due to the > >blanket of spray in front of him. > I didn't say he raised his arm. He lifted his foot off the floor... > The Excelsior > "ICQ #40620378"Quoted text (11 lines)
>>You don't find ABS to be a HUGE help?? Gimme a break. ABS is more of >>an aid than brake lights would ever be, I think, and yet it's nice to >>have it for those who prefer it or need it. >The closest thing we have to ABS in GPL is the braking help, which >TOTALLY sucks. I _never_ use it. Braking distances are far too long, >and the car often tends to sway off the racing line when using it. >As for _true_ ABS, of course it helps, but why would we want it in >GPL? GPL is supposed to be about authenticity. Brake lights and ABS >removes that and adds an 'arcade' feel to the game.Quoted text (11 lines)
>>You're quite welcome -- everything you proposed makes a lot of sense. >>Even if it wasn't accurate for the era that's being modeled, there's >>no reason it can't be included as an option. SCGT and Viper Racing >>include ABS, for example, which isn't always 100% accurate for the >>cars being modeled. It's a nice option to have available, though, and >>if you decide not to use those kinds of options in the name of >>authenticity, then that's all well and good, but it would also be nice >>to have the choice in the first place. >True, but these options hardly effect multiplayer races in the same >way that brake lights would on GPL cars...>- Berger exited the last turn at Barcelona and swerved off to go into
>the pits. Patrese thought Berger was trying to shake him out of the
>slipstream and followed. Berger braked hard to enter the pits and
>Patrese was launched somersaulting down the track.
It was Estoril , 1992
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On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:38:57 +0200, "McKafre"
>it was Estoril (Portugal) , not Barcelona (Spain)
You're right - I got the right corner and the right pit entrance then
assigned them to the wrong circuit :-)
Cheers!
John
On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:37:45 +0100, "Mark Seery"
>Sorry for the confusion but you never stared anything specifically. I made
>an assumption that you was on about this, following on from the previous
>post ;-)
I apologise.
I'll try to be more clear in future...
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
>Again, as I said, there's no reason a braking indicator couldn't be
>included in GPL as an aid for on-line racing. It's not 100% accurate,
>but if you think you can achieve that sitting in a desk chair watching
>a monitor, then more power to you.
You're missing the point!
First of all, calm down and breath in for a moment.
You're saying that since these aids, such as ABS brakes, were included
in Viper Racing, there is no reason why GPL couldn't have a braking
indicator as an aid too.
What I am saying is that it is OK for games like SCGT and Viper Racing
to not be _entirely_ realistic with things like these, as they both
share arcade and simulator qualities. GPL however is all about pure
simulation of the real thing, without diddly squat of an arcade feel,
and for this, brake lights should _not_ be included, or built in, as
this would take away from the authenticity.
Of course not! That's like saying that since computers like the ones
we have today weren't around in the 60's, we shouldn't own GPL at all!
I don't. I grave realism from a computer!
Actually, if you'd care to look over past messages, I never said that
brake lights wouldn't be helpful for on-line racing. It's a fact that
they would. What I said was that these brake lights would take away
the realism, and the enjoyment which most GPLers enjoy. Especially the
good ones among us. :-)
Perhaps these people should practise a little more in training and
single race modes before going on-line? Accidents are _bound_ to
happen. There is little we can do to prevent them, even if you added
all of the aids mentioned in previous messages, pile-ups would still
happen. However, the very best way to prevent them is to know your car
well, and the best way to do I'm afraid is to practise.
You're talking about two entirely seperate issues! You need to stick
to the same conversation and finish it before moving onto something
else..
He put forward an excellent idea, not just a good one, but because
this idea conflicts with the whole reason for GPL, most of us would
say that it should not be implimented.
The Excelsior
"ICQ #40620378"
Quoted text (8 lines)
>>True, but these options hardly effect multiplayer races in the same >>way that brake lights would on GPL cars... >I pretty much guarantee you that a newbie using ABS set to the "high" >level in Viper Racing is going to have at least some small advantage >over the more seasoned player using no ABS at all. THAT would seem to >affect multiplayer races, I would think -- probably moreso than brake >lights would, in fact.Quoted text (46 lines)
>>Again, as I said, there's no reason a braking indicator couldn't be >>included in GPL as an aid for on-line racing. It's not 100% accurate, >>but if you think you can achieve that sitting in a desk chair watching >>a monitor, then more power to you. >You're missing the point! >First of all, calm down and breath in for a moment. >You're saying that since these aids, such as ABS brakes, were included >in Viper Racing, there is no reason why GPL couldn't have a braking >indicator as an aid too. >What I am saying is that it is OK for games like SCGT and Viper Racing >to not be _entirely_ realistic with things like these, as they both >share arcade and simulator qualities. GPL however is all about pure >simulation of the real thing, without diddly squat of an arcade feel, >and for this, brake lights should _not_ be included, or built in, as >this would take away from the authenticity. >>GPL itself is about simulating racing in a very pure period, just as >>flight sims like Red Baron simulate air combat in a very pure period. >>When it comes to on-line racing with GPL agains other human beings, >>though, we're talking about REAL-LIFE competition in a simulated >>environment across the Internet, usually via modem. In the era >>simulated by GPL, the Internet and modems DIDN'T EXIST -- so is the >>inclusion of Internet play via modem unrealistic for GPL, and should >>it be deleted? >Of course not! That's like saying that since computers like the ones >we have today weren't around in the 60's, we shouldn't own GPL at all! >>My point here is that you can take the "realism" and "authenticity" >>arguments too far >I don't. I grave realism from a computer! >>and I think using the "realism" and "authenticity" >>arguments in the debate about whether brake indicators would be >>helpful for on-line racing is, well, going too far. >Actually, if you'd care to look over past messages, I never said that >brake lights wouldn't be helpful for on-line racing. It's a fact that >they would. What I said was that these brake lights would take away >the realism, and the enjoyment which most GPLers enjoy. Especially the >good ones among us. :-)Hi Mike,
I was wondering if wouldn't mind posting in Text instead of HTML?
I noticed in the past your posts had that "virtual business card" thing at
the end in MIME or something, but the content of your posts were in text
and easily readable, but now it looks like your whole post is in MIME or HTML
or something which is very hard to read due to all the markup tags.
HTML posts come across pretty much as unreadable gobbledygook to those
of us who use traditional text USENET newsreaders like 'trn' or 'tin'
(as most of us longtime USENET ***s and UNIX users do).
Normally I ignore all HTML posts, but you are a good contributor to r.a.s.
(and a good racer from my past VROC races with you) so I want to keep
reading your contributions and thought you might want to know that your
post is pretty much unreadable to some of us and by posting in HTML many
of us will ignore your entire post.
Not trying to start a huge HTML -vs- Text on USENET flamefest, but there is
still a large amount of us old UNIX newsreader users who bypass any HTML
posts and your posts are some I would rather not have to ignore.
Thanks.
Seeyas on the track.
--John (Joao) Silva
SNIPPED lots more HTML gobbledygook!
My cable works great & I have never had any down time!
Maybe you should change providers?? Thom_j.
> Wow.....I didn't expect this much "response" to what I considered an "obvious"
> benefit.
> Cable internet connections are great....except when they don't work! And my
> cable operator has been "down" since Sunday afternoon....it just came back up
> last night. There's over 70 "replies" in this string alone....guess I have some
> reading to do?
> I think I should "respond" when and where needed in a single post......to save
> time and space.
> Be back in a couple hours.....lol.
> Tom Pabst
>Not trying to start a huge HTML -vs- Text on USENET flamefest, but there is
>still a large amount of us old UNIX newsreader users who bypass any HTML
>posts and your posts are some I would rather not have to ignore.
It's not just Unix users who need to worry about HTML. HTML should not
be used in Usenet, period!
It takes longer to download and takes up more bandwidth, which means
that servers will be able to carry far less.
Not just that, but I shouldn't be forced to read a message in the font
which somebody else chooses. It should appear as _I_ like it - in my
case, Courier New is the best font!
The Excelsior
"Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning..."
Captain James Kirk [William Shatner], The Undiscovered Country
<THE BIGGEST SNIP YET!>
No offence intended, but please try to cut down on the size of your
mesages. There was no need for all the quoted text in your last
message!
I'm sorry to hear that...
I'm not denying that with one eye closed it wouldn't be difficult,
however a 2D monitor is not quite the same thing.
If what you say is accurate, why are some of us able to complete lap
after lap without crashing into every barrier? We see the corner
approaching, we slow down, we turn, we accelerate out of it. If we
weren't able to judge the corner, we wouldn't make it around the first
bend.
Couldn't agree more! The graphics in GPL are piss-poor! Those
cartoon-style buildings at Monaco, for example, look like they have
been drawn by my 7-year-old brother. And with those same old 2D trees
scattered around the place, there's little _special_ about the
graphics.
I must admit to being quite pleased with the special effects, such as
the smoke which comes up from your wheel when you skid or wheel spin,
and even the fire looks pretty stunning!
If you want Papyrus to take into account blind/visually impaired
people (and I'm not saying they shouldn't...) then perhaps they
should also take into account the Dyslexic and use much larger fonts,
and the deaf with sharper sounds, and those with muscular disabilities
who find it difficult to use analogue controllers...
No! There are _many_ ways which GPL could be improved on, and over the
years, just as with every other one of its kind, GPL will become
obsolete, replaced by something bigger and better. However, for the
time being, GPL is the most realistic simulator available to us. That
does not mean it is _real_!
Just needed to be clear about that point.
We can certainly get close, especially with FF, 3D Sound, FF seats,
etc.
Tell me... do you think that GPL (which is doing its best to _copy_
the real F1 from 1967) would be MORE like the real F1 racing if it had
brake lights?
What do you think G.Hill would have to say about that?
The Excelsior
"Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning..."
Captain James Kirk [William Shatner], The Undiscovered Country
I've been told this before many times. My reply? GET A HTML READER!!
(just joking)
I write monthly reports using HTML. using it, the reports look a whole
lot better with useless picture incorporated then they do with just
three of four lines of text.
Now that these posts are in text form, I wonder how many will even look
at the sponsors listed in my tag line, let alone how many will go to
these places and make me look good to them ;-)
Mike Barlow
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> Hi Mike, > I was wondering if wouldn't mind posting in Text instead of HTML? > I noticed in the past your posts had that "virtual business card" thing at > the end in MIME or something, but the content of your posts were in text > and easily readable, but now it looks like your whole post is in MIME or HTML > or something which is very hard to read due to all the markup tags. > HTML posts come across pretty much as unreadable gobbledygook to those > of us who use traditional text USENET newsreaders like 'trn' or 'tin' > (as most of us longtime USENET ***s and UNIX users do). > Normally I ignore all HTML posts, but you are a good contributor to r.a.s. > (and a good racer from my past VROC races with you) so I want to keep > reading your contributions and thought you might want to know that your > post is pretty much unreadable to some of us and by posting in HTML many > of us will ignore your entire post. > Not trying to start a huge HTML -vs- Text on USENET flamefest, but there is > still a large amount of us old UNIX newsreader users who bypass any HTML > posts and your posts are some I would rather not have to ignore. > Thanks. > Seeyas on the track. > --John (Joao) Silva > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >--------------6855F6FDF9BCE7AB67D4BEB8 > >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> > ><html> > ><body text="#000000" bgcolor="#CCCCCC" link="#0000EE" vlink="#551A8B" alink="#FF0000"> > > > SNIPPED lots more HTML gobbledygook!Quoted text (9 lines)
> >Not trying to start a huge HTML -vs- Text on USENET flamefest, but there is > >still a large amount of us old UNIX newsreader users who bypass any HTML > >posts and your posts are some I would rather not have to ignore. > It's not just Unix users who need to worry about HTML. HTML should not > be used in Usenet, period! > It takes longer to download and takes up more bandwidth, which means > that servers will be able to carry far less.Same here. Please turn off that HTML stuff, Mike! Some years ago, I
tried to read *every* potentially interesting contribution on USENET,
but my tolerance for ill formatting has gone down considerably in the
meantime. These days, it's "hit the 'next' key" when I see a message
that's hard to read due to HTML, long lines or lack of whitespace.
It's hard to break with this habit even if the info in the message
might be vital. I almost dumped a hand-written letter from my
girlfriend: five sheets of hotel notes paper, not numbered, unreadable
handwriting on both sides of the leaves. If she wants me to read it,
she should type it legibly... ;) Well, mabe not the appropriate
attitude in this particular case, so I tried to decipher it anyway.
But *you* are *not* my girlfriend, Mike Barlow. :)
In a nutshell - if you want to be read by a lot of people, try to
format your writing in a human-readable manner.
--
Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.
On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:21:43 -0400, Michael Barlow
> Sorry about that Ex! I got so used to a modem that actually has a fast
>download as opposed to my old 33.6
It doesn't matter what speed YOU can download at, it matters what
speed other people can. Remember that some people still use 28k
modems...
And by using 800x600 you are insulting everybody with a 15" or 17"
screen I can think of. :-)
Why would you want to have such a terrible screen resolution with such
a large monitor?
The Excelsior
"Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning..."
Captain James Kirk [William Shatner], The Undiscovered Country
On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:50:56 -0400, Michael Barlow
> I've been told this before many times. My reply? GET A HTML READER!!
>(just joking)
I realise you were joking, but I would still like to point out that it
has very little to do with the news reader you use. HTML can be read
just fin by OE, for example, but that still doesn't mean one should be
using HTML.
HTML is fine (in fact, it's encouraged) for mail-to-mail transfer, but
not for Usenet!
The Excelsior
"Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning..."
Captain James Kirk [William Shatner], The Undiscovered Country
>Same here. Please turn off that HTML stuff, Mike! Some years ago, I
>tried to read *every* potentially interesting contribution on USENET,
>but my tolerance for ill formatting has gone down considerably in the
>meantime. These days, it's "hit the 'next' key" when I see a message
>that's hard to read due to HTML, long lines or lack of whitespace.
You are kidding? You were willing to go through thousands upon
thousands upon thousands of newsgroups, and millions of messages? Talk
about free time!
Or was this at a time when Usenet wasn't as common, and as popular, as
it is today?
I received a letter similar to that recently. It was almost impossible
to tell where one page finished and another began! Grrrrrr!
The Excelsior
"Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning..."
Captain James Kirk [William Shatner], The Undiscovered Country
You guys got video conferencing?
> Sorry for the confusion but you never >>>>>stared<<<<<<< anything specifically. I made
> an assumption that you was on about this, following on from the previous
> post ;-)
><THE BIGGEST SNIP YET!>
Whew! Thanks for shortening things -- it WAS getting a bit
cumbersome! <G>
Thanks. Even before the operation, Dad and I didn't really see
eye-to-eye on all issues, and it only got worse afterwards . . . ;-)
(Hey, you've gotta laugh about these things or they'll kill you!)
I'd say that maybe it's because some people are better able to adapt
to the lack of input from the missing senses that usually receive
input when actually behind the wheel. Others, though, may be
operating on a somewhat-impaired level without those inputs, and the
addition of "interface aids" like braking indicators would help level
things out for them -- it's not always a case of someone not
practicing enough. Some people just can't adapt as well to the sim
environment -- I know real racers that I can drive rings around in a
sim, no matter how much practice they've had. Obviously, something's
missing for them in the sim interface.
I know -- I got carried away and nearly fell off my soapbox. Sorry
about that.
No, but with the OPTION for some sort of braking indicator, it might
be a better on-line racing EXPERIENCE for a BROADER AUDIENCE, which
just might increase its mass appeal. THAT would be the beauty of
braking indicators, and if you could choose NOT to use them, and I
could choose TO use them, then we both might be able to compete on a
more level playing field given more diverse abilities, and everybody
would come out ahead, right?
How about this: "***y good thing! Now I can tell more easily when
the bloke in front of me is braking too early!" <G>
Quoted text (12 lines)
>>Same here. Please turn off that HTML stuff, Mike! Some years ago, I >>tried to read *every* potentially interesting contribution on USENET, >>but my tolerance for ill formatting has gone down considerably in the >>meantime. These days, it's "hit the 'next' key" when I see a message >>that's hard to read due to HTML, long lines or lack of whitespace. >You are kidding? You were willing to go through thousands upon >thousands upon thousands of newsgroups, and millions of messages? Talk >about free time! >Or was this at a time when Usenet wasn't as common, and as popular, as >it is today?>Yes, I'm as old as the sea and the mountains. :)
I'm sure that's not true.
Ahh, I see what you mean.
RAS is my favourite NG, and is where I spend most of my time. Just
take a look at Deja to see what I mean.
The Excelsior
"Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning..."
Captain James Kirk [William Shatner], The Undiscovered Country
>>I'm sorry to hear that...
>Thanks. Even before the operation, Dad and I didn't really see
>eye-to-eye on all issues, and it only got worse afterwards . . . ;-)
:-)
Couldn't agree more!
I must be one heck of a highly adaptive human being then!
But that would give you an unfair advantage...
ROFL!
The Excelsior
"Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning..."
Captain James Kirk [William Shatner], The Undiscovered Country
Quoted text (16 lines)
>>>I'm sorry to hear that... >>Thanks. Even before the operation, Dad and I didn't really see >>eye-to-eye on all issues, and it only got worse afterwards . . . ;-) >:-) >>(Hey, you've gotta laugh about these things or they'll kill you!) >Couldn't agree more! >>I'd say that maybe it's because some people are better able to adapt >>to the lack of input from the missing senses that usually receive >>input when actually behind the wheel. >I must be one heck of a highly adaptive human being then!Actually :-) I do use an HTML reader at home now and then to decode the odd
binary attachment, but somehow I just can't give up the much much faster and
simpler uncluttered interface of my old UNIX shell account newsreader 'trn'
Thanks for the text view by the way. I for one will look at those sponsors
now that I can actually see them :-)
Seeyas on the track.
--John (Joao) Silva
That's what I thought too...they're for visibility in poor visibility
conditions, not brake lights.
I have to add my 2 cents, brake lights for GPL ranks right up there as the
dumbest idea I've heard.
Marty
Quoted text (29 lines)
> I don't think they are brake lights, just high intensity lights which the > drivers use to see other cars through the spray, they are permanently on in > poor visibilty. > -- > Ian Parker > > I'm pretty sure that F1 only uses them in the wet. At least, that's the > only > > time that I notice them. > > Mikey the Slowpoke > > >But then, if I wanted to fool the person behind me into thinking that I'm > > >braking, I could just feather the brake pedal without actually braking. > > >I think thats why they don't have brake lights in F1. But I could be > > wrong. > > >Just my 2 cents. > > >Robert > > >Hull, QubecAbsolutely the most right-on response to this brake light idea. Thanks John.
Of course, if you are not an 'old timer' with as much real world seat time as the
originator of this idea, your opinion is irrelevant. (Hope my sarcasm is obvious
here)
Like there aren't bozos on real race tracks too.
Marty
Quoted text (64 lines)
> On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 23:00:57 -0400, "Jesse Black" > >They do this in real life. My dad used to race sedans and he would tap the > >brakes just slightly going down the front stretch to try to get the guy out > >of the draft. Same in open wheel cars...try throwing up your hand all of a > >sudden, they will get off your tail in a heart beat and you can normally get > >him out of your draft. > Anyone who stuck their hand up to get someone out of the draft would > likely end up with a sore face in the pits - that is a VERY dangerous > thing to do. Brake testing, lifting etc is dangerous but an accepted > part of racing, but putting your hand up in the air is a safety > warning - "my car is damaged, I'm no longer racing, please don't hit > me". Using that as a racing tactic takes the "sport" out of > Motorsport. > >Tom > >wasn't getting into a discussion of why they are good and bad, he just wants > >them which is a VERY good idea and would make online racing much more > >enjoyable. Sorry for running on and on but I would also like to see this > >made. > You would, others wouldn't. Personally I think it's an awful idea, but > then I don't have any problem with depth perception or knowing how far > behind I am or what my closure speed is. If you don't know when the > guy in front of you starts braking for the corner and you run up his > chuff it's not because of depth perception, it's because you didn't > err on the side of caution as drivers IRL have to. Getting a gearbox > in the face will tend to be a strong reminder. > Adding a brake light will only allow additional information for the > guy behind to make the pass, waiting until the person in front brakes > before committing (particularly true for those driving in arcade view, > where they can see the brake lights while alongside). > In any case, think about the issues of latency, differing braking > ability & reaction time from seeing brake lights. Do you really think > that if you were following me and I jumped on the brakes you would be > able to react in time? Not only in time, but under control? Not a > chance. If you were far enough back to react you'd be far enough back > to avoid me anyway. > The problem which causes these shunts is lack of race awareness and > lack of respect for other drivers, not a lack of information on what > others are doing. There are certain drivers with whom I will happily > _race_, brake-testing them, running close, side-by-side through > corners etc, because I know they expect and allow for these things. > Also if I get it wrong and brake too late I will spin the car rather > than slide into them - that's my mistake. OTOH there are drivers, many > of them very fast drivers, where as soon as they appear in my mirrors > I'm resigned to a trip into the wall. > If people want to avoid accidents, avoid contact. Practice braking > offline into corners, know the braking points from either side of the > track, accept that if you brake too late you should try to avoid an > accident first and foremost, even if it does mean your quarry escapes. > Brake lights could be possible, may be an idea but in no way will > solve the issues put forward here. They'll be another racing tactic > and we'll be back to wondering why people always have T1 pile ups. > Cheers! > JohnWhew, what a dissertation John. The point you make, that the problem with sims
is they lack the 3D effect of stereoscopic vision because they are rendered on a
2D monitor, while true, ignores the fact that there are other visual 'clues' to
show distance and relative position of objects. If 3D was the only factor, all
sims would be unplayable and we know that is not the case.
The real difference between those for whom this is problem and those who excel
at sim racing is the same as in real world racing,... experience, motivation,
talent, and good equipment.
While brake lights would seem like a help to some, I think it would actually
make things worse. It would encourage the driver to focus on the car in front of
him instead of where his primary focus should be...on driving the track. It is
well known that you should 'race the track' not the car in front of you. That is
why it can be so difficult to follow someone. You tend to miss your braking
points, turning points, and apexes more than when running alone.
Adding brake lights to GPL would not only be a solution in search of a problem,
it would add to a problem that already exist, and would detract from the
authenticity of GPL.
Marty
John Bodin wrote:
