Mercedes withdraw from Le Mans (too late)

another one of their cars flipped in a horrendously spectacular arcade game style accident - it is being reported that the driver, Peter Dumbreck, is OK and luckily it was in an unspectatored area but a bad decision by the team to run IMO and they were just lucky the consequences weren't far worse sa w

Absolutly! But that Merc was so fantastic. It looked stunning. I fear this typre of accident will become common place if the FIA don't do something about it... Rob Oh, I don't know! Does anyone actually read these sig's anyway!? "You will respect my awforataaaay!"

Nothing new in cars flipping, been happening for years. Last car I saw do it was a Porsche GT1 at Homestead. The car flipped over it's back, and landed on four wheels like Christian Fittipaldi.

agree, but the situation here was that one car had flipped in qualifying and then again yesterday morning - they had attempted some sort of quick fix solution and raced when their tragic history at Le Mans should really have made them withdraw if there was any doubt sa w

Just when you think you seen it all, a blowover like that occurs...Kinda reminds me of the Unlimited Hyrdoplane boats we have here in the States. One other Le Mans note.. Toyota Driver Katiyama, does he EVER BLINK? those incar shots...man he stared and stared, I can't think of a single time I saw him blink.. btw THANKs SPEEDVISION (this is the golden age of racing coverage) dave henrie -- On May 17, 1999 A Whale was killed off the coast of Washington State. The Whale was killed in the name of Tradition.....I say.... %&#& Tradition! >agree, but the situation here was that one car had flipped in qualifying and >then again yesterday morning - they had attempted some sort of quick fix >solution and raced when their tragic history at Le Mans should really have >made them withdraw if there was any doubt >sa >w >> Nothing new in cars flipping, been happening for years. Last car I saw >> do it was a Porsche GT1 at Homestead. The car flipped over it's back, >> and landed on four wheels like Christian Fittipaldi.

Imagine the pressure they were under to run. Millions have been spent on research and development, There were sponsors to please and simply pulling out could have had a very damaging effect on corporate image. Also consider the fact that all 3 cars had passed scrutineering, which is a very stringent process. Modifications were made to the car in an effort to cure the problem and upon consultation, the drivers were all for running the race. As always, it is easy to make judgements in retrospect. How many of you remember 1988 when Mercedes pulled out at the last minute because they had worries about the Mitchelin tyres they were running on. They were absolutely slated and branded as cowards form many quarters. Motorsport will always be a calculated risk in terms of the levels of safety. I only thank god that the driver was not badly hurt and that we did not have a 1955 scenario unfold in front of out eyes. Let's not stand in judgement when we are not qualified to do so. Regards Mark In retrospect, it is easy

A toast to Speedvision, I couldn't make it for all 20 hours that they showed, but I got all the big stuff. Also, a nod of agreement on the "golden age" comment. We racing fans can watch qualifying, and also final practice for nearly all the major American racing series and F1, many Euro touring car races, many GT races, SuperBike races, etc. This is really fabulous. I didn't see what happened to start the filp (did he just catch air coming over a hill??), nor did I see the practice blowover, but what I did see was disgusting. He was incredibly lucky he didn't hit that bridge, and everyone else was lucky that he drifted off the track before landing. Regardless, I think we are in for a FIA crackdown similar to the death of the GTP cars here is the States earlier this decade. After all that ranting, this was still one of the best Le Mans races in recent memory. Until the Toyota lost the tire there, it looke like there might actually be a RACE at the end, with passing and everything!! :) Justin

Does anyone know when the accident might be re-shown? I'm kinda interested in seeing this one! Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited

normally i'd agree with you but you didn't need to be a Mercedes aerodynamicist/engineer/team manager, whatever, to realise that if a car flips twice in two days that there is something fundamentally wrong. there's a difference between the inherent dangers in motorsport and what i would call calculated stupidity (rather than risk) driven by corporate pressure we saw another example of a similar thing today - World Superbike race 1 from Nurburgring today when someone wasn't brave enough to stop the race and again rider safety was put on the line, one feels, for the sake of the show how much worse to Mercedes' image can a somersaulting car be than anything else they could have done? sa w

>how much worse to Mercedes' image can a somersaulting car be than >anything else they could have done? >sa >w Yeah, but now they can use it to show how SAFE their cars are.........once they get launched like an aircraft......... Rick

"Mercedes - engineered like no other airborne car in the world..." I was thinking too, that the new LeMans game can have damn near anything in it for crashes, and it'll be realistic. My first thought seeing that replay was that it was something you'd see either in an arcade game, or in hydroplane racing. Scary, at least that was nowhere near spectators, that could've been horrific somewhere else on the circuit. -- Ken's Sig 3.0 "Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan Kenobi Go #43 and #44! volksy (at) geocities (dot) com volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com >>how much worse to Mercedes' image can a somersaulting car be than >>anything else they could have done? >>sa >>w >Yeah, but now they can use it to show how SAFE their cars are.........once >they get launched like an aircraft......... >Rick

I saw about 18 hours of it, and boy, am I goofy tired now. I also agree about the incredible amount of programming available, I might have to quit my job to watch it all. The only problem is, Speedvision only seems to have about six commercials. And there's a commericial break every eight minutes. I'm a little burned out on those six commercials, believe me. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

I saw it on Sportscenter on ESPN this morning. I imagine RPM Tonight or some other sports recap-type show would have it. --- Jet Jaguar I have a spam blocking address. Replying to me is like pulling teeth. Visit my crappy home page at http://home.att.net/~chmilnir/ MSTie #54297 The suspense is terrible. I hope it will last.

. did you ever see the guy drive a F1 car? He used to be called the nodding dog. His head was never still and always looked as though it was about to roll right off his shoulders! Mark

Yeah, you need to see that one. Damndest thing I've *ever* seen. I shudder to think what it would have been like if it had happened near any stands. Some of the stuff that's happened at racing events the past few months is downright scary. Jerry Morelock

I've seen this car flip three different times, and each time I am amazed that this car gets airborne, and rotates around the x axis without roll or yaw. Very stable aerodynamics.

If you are in the U.S. you can also try tuning into the George Michael Sports Machine, comes on locally at 11:35pm Sunday nights on NBC. They usually show these type of newsbytes on amazing sports incidents, probably a good chance they will show the accident. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva >Does anyone know when the accident might be re-shown? I'm kinda interested in >seeing this one! >Dan Belcher >Team Racing Unlimited

Can;t seem to simultate the flip in SCGT! Must be bad physics programming....

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> another one of their cars flipped in a horrendously spectacular arcade game > style accident - it is being reported that the driver, Peter Dumbreck, is OK > and luckily it was in an unspectatored area > but a bad decision by the team to run IMO and they were just lucky the > consequences weren't far worse > sa > w

I feel sorry for Mark Weber. he was almost crying when they announced the pull out. He wan;t to impress for a F1 drive and this was a big chance.

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> Imagine the pressure they were under to run. Millions have been spent on > research and development, There were sponsors to please and simply pulling > out could have had a very damaging effect on corporate image. Also consider > the fact that all 3 cars had passed scrutineering, which is a very stringent > process. Modifications were made to the car in an effort to cure the problem > and upon consultation, the drivers were all for running the race. > As always, it is easy to make judgements in retrospect. How many of you > remember 1988 when Mercedes pulled out at the last minute because they had > worries about the Mitchelin tyres they were running on. They were absolutely > slated and branded as cowards form many quarters. Motorsport will always be > a calculated risk in terms of the levels of safety. I only thank god that > the driver was not badly hurt and that we did not have a 1955 scenario > unfold in front of out eyes. Let's not stand in judgement when we are not > qualified to do so. > Regards > Mark > In retrospect, it is easy > > another one of their cars flipped in a horrendously spectacular arcade > game > > style accident - it is being reported that the driver, Peter Dumbreck, is > OK > > and luckily it was in an unspectatored area > > but a bad decision by the team to run IMO and they were just lucky the > > consequences weren't far worse > > sa > > w

I finally saw the wreck on RPM2night a few hours ago. Pretty bad all right. Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited

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> >Absolutly! But that Merc was so fantastic. It looked stunning. I fear this > >typre of accident will become common place if the FIA don't do something about > >it... > Nothing new in cars flipping, been happening for years. Last car I saw > do it was a Porsche GT1 at Homestead. The car flipped over it's back, > and landed on four wheels like Christian Fittipaldi.

Simple aerodynamics can show that wing-shaped cars that have flat bottoms will become airborne if something goes wrong. The air that goes over the car has to travel a far longer distance than the air under the car, resulting in a lowerair pressure above than below the car. Hence, there is an upward force. This may be compensated by the downforce from the wing (than works just the other way round), but there is only a wing at the back of the car. So if the front gets loose and becomes airborn (i.e. by a small distortion in the airflow due to the drag of the car inb front), there will be a torque (the upward force at the front and the downforce at the back) causing the car to rotate. If the car is off the ground, the car will continue rotating until it strikes something (Newton's first law: inertia) I really think that the FIA should prevent this things from happening by either allowing some kind of 'ground-effect' or by allowing wings at the front. Greetings, Han Monsees

> Does anyone know when the accident might be re-shown? I'm kinda interested in > seeing this one! Probably in every program about crashes/bloopers in sport. Watch Eurosport closely for that. They have Dalmas' flipover in such a program. too. And it will be shown many times in the last week of december, I guess.

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>another one of their cars flipped in a horrendously spectacular arcade game >style accident - it is being reported that the driver, Peter Dumbreck, is OK >and luckily it was in an unspectatored area >but a bad decision by the team to run IMO and they were just lucky the >consequences weren't far worse >sa >w

What does this have to do with rec.autos.simulators? Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Nothing really, apart from the fact that the vast majority of people in here have an interest in motorsport that far exceeds the boundaries of the pc monitor. The general concensus here is that the occasional o/t discussion relating to current motorsport topics is ok in moderstion. Of course, nobody is forcing you or anybody else to read this thread! Mark

>> What does this have to do with rec.autos.simulators? >Nothing really, apart from the fact that the vast majority of people in here >have an interest in motorsport that far exceeds the boundaries of the pc >monitor. rec.autos.sport.misc exists for exactly this purpose. R.A.S does not. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

i can make an .AVI and mail it to you if you are interested ... McKafre De La Rosa Dan Belcher escribi en mensaje

Could you post it on a website? -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 ________________________________________________________________________________ "There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" (Calvin & Hobbes)

>Can;t seem to simultate the flip in SCGT! Must be bad physics programming.... try Viper Racing ! Get into the *** "hack" car at the Ridge Valley circuit and provided you get above about 280 km/h on the back straight (just before the last 2 corners) then you should perform the Mercedes "fly by" over the brow. Andy.

Before you get into a needless pissing match read the charter... I quote from it. "This is an unmoderated newsgroup for discussions of realistic computer simulations of automotive vehicles, Arcade racing simulators, which give an overhead perspective and which do not attempt to provide realism" of handling of the vehicle, would not be appropriate in this newsgroup, I guess we have two choices here. We could either 1. Ban discussions involving 75% of the so called sims that pretend to be realistic or 2. Show a little more tolerance towards the occasional indulgence from a number of respected posters in this group. People who in the main have something more constructive to contribute than creating needless tensions! Mark

I Liked Alan Jones comment on the Canadian GP on Channel 9 that he should have been in line for some frequent flyer points. It certainly was an amazing sight. That guy must have had a hell of a ride. Looking out of the side window during it all would have been interesting. Clean undies for him afterwards.

Anyone know what this LeMans sim is all about and coming from whom? Surely it will be a bit boring.

I dont have website ... if you can post it, i can mail it to you ... Graeme Nash escribi en mensaje ...

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>>i can make an .AVI and mail it to you if you are interested ... >Could you post it on a website? >-- >Cheers! >Graeme Nash >http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk >ICQ# 11257824 >___________________________________________________________________________

_____ > "There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" > (Calvin & Hobbes)

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>Before you get into a needless pissing match read the charter... I quote >from it. >"This is an unmoderated newsgroup for >discussions of realistic computer simulations of automotive vehicles, >Arcade racing simulators, which >give an overhead perspective and which do not attempt to provide realism" >of handling of the vehicle, would not be appropriate in this newsgroup,

I don't think Micro machines 3, or Ignition have been discussed here, and most other arcade racers have***pit views. Your point is? Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Relax, guys. We're here to have a good time, not? And that flip really WAS terrifying, after all. ---Asgeir---

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> >Before you get into a needless pissing match read the charter... I quote > >from it. > >"This is an unmoderated newsgroup for > >discussions of realistic computer simulations of automotive vehicles, > >Arcade racing simulators, which > >give an overhead perspective and which do not attempt to provide realism" > >of handling of the vehicle, would not be appropriate in this newsgroup, > I don't think Micro machines 3, or Ignition have been discussed here, and most > other arcade racers have***pit views. > Your point is? > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

>Relax, guys. We're here to have a good time, not? And that flip really WAS > terrifying, after all. I was here to read about simulators. I watched le mans, and if i really wanted to chat about it, i'd be on rec.autos.sport.misc Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

I thought the biggest problem with ground effects was this exact problem. When the cars lost the "ground"effect, due to a brocken side skirt or whatever, they tended to flip.

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> > >Absolutly! But that Merc was so fantastic. It looked stunning. I fear this > > >typre of accident will become common place if the FIA don't do something about > > >it... > > Nothing new in cars flipping, been happening for years. Last car I saw > > do it was a Porsche GT1 at Homestead. The car flipped over it's back, > > and landed on four wheels like Christian Fittipaldi. > Simple aerodynamics can show that wing-shaped cars that have flat bottoms will > become airborne if something goes wrong. The air that goes over the car has to > travel a far longer distance than the air under the car, resulting in a lowerair > pressure above than below the car. Hence, there is an upward force. This may be > compensated by the downforce from the wing (than works just the other way round), > but there is only a wing at the back of the car. So if the front gets loose and > becomes airborn (i.e. by a small distortion in the airflow due to the drag of the > car inb front), there will be a torque (the upward force at the front and the > downforce at the back) causing the car to rotate. If the car is off the ground, > the car will continue rotating until it strikes something (Newton's first law: > inertia) > I really think that the FIA should prevent this things from happening by either > allowing some kind of 'ground-effect' or by allowing wings at the front. > Greetings, > Han Monsees

I think people in this newsgroup enjoy real motorsports as well and if it takes up a tiny bit of your bandwidth to bypass the messages you don't like then you have my humble apologies.

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> >another one of their cars flipped in a horrendously spectacular arcade game > >style accident - it is being reported that the driver, Peter Dumbreck, is OK > >and luckily it was in an unspectatored area > >but a bad decision by the team to run IMO and they were just lucky the > >consequences weren't far worse > >sa > >w > What does this have to do with rec.autos.simulators? > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Your waisting more time complaining about threads others enjoy than contributing something usefull. I know what I would rather read. Part of enjoying auto simulators is comparing the games with the real action on the tracks. The flipping on the Merc is fascinating to myself and other SCGT sim racers. Don't like it, don't read it!

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> >> What does this have to do with rec.autos.simulators? > >Nothing really, apart from the fact that the vast majority of people in here > >have an interest in motorsport that far exceeds the boundaries of the pc > >monitor. > rec.autos.sport.misc exists for exactly this purpose. R.A.S does not. > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Z is a good moniker for you. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

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> >Relax, guys. We're here to have a good time, not? And that flip really WAS > > terrifying, after all. > I was here to read about simulators. I watched le mans, and if i really wanted > to chat about it, i'd be on rec.autos.sport.misc > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Why don't you just read the headers then and select your reading material accordingly. I'm not a Nascar fan for instance so I simply mark Nascar threads as ignore. Easy! It takes less than a second. Nobody forced you into this thread and nobody is twisting your arm behind your back. forcing you either to read it or indeed to create a hostile environment within it. I see no evidence any of problems to the average curteous person in residence here. There are hundreds of people who post to this group and probably thousands more who just lurk. It would appear that there is only one person who is stamping his feet as a juvenile would when he can't get rhe right colour ice cream. I have yet to come across a NG anywhere on the net where an occasional O/T thread does not occur. Why? because there are grey areas everywhere in life and many things are related to others.If you can only see in black and white you have a real problem in life. Go read rec.autos.misc for long enough and you will find an O/T thread in there eventually! You are just being objectionable for the sake of it. For my part this thread makes an interesting diversion from hearing the hundredth person ask what the best FF wheel is. Go read some threads on sims or better still how about a few copies of the Beano. You can always come back here when grow up and have something positive to contribute. Mark

How big is it? If it's under 1Mb go ahead! -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 ________________________________________________________________________________ "There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" (Calvin & Hobbes)

> >Relax, guys. We're here to have a good time, not? And that flip really WAS > > terrifying, after all. > I was here to read about simulators. I watched le mans, and if i really wanted > to chat about it, i'd be on rec.autos.sport.misc > Z. So if you don't want to chat about it, then why did you type those words up there? Seems to me that it would have been pretty obvious from the header that this thread wouldn't interest you, so why don't you just move on? And after all, its not like this is some totally irrelevant post about Kosovo or gun-control or something...that might deserve some criticism on this group. Face it, USENET and life isn't quite as ordered and convenient as it is in your teletubbieland, to call attention to your email address. :-)

I'd love to have a copy of the .avi. Thanks in advance. Michele.

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> i can make an .AVI and mail it to you if you are interested ... > McKafre De La Rosa > Dan Belcher escribi en mensaje > >Does anyone know when the accident might be re-shown? I'm kinda interested > in > >seeing this one! > >Dan Belcher > >Team Racing Unlimited

SO F***ING WHAT? Does anyone other than you really care if someone posts something that relates to motorsports that's not on the computer? No. And if you don't like it, no one says you have to read this thread.... Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited

I see your from AO also... Your a proud Usenet Anarchist I guess ? Ever heard of structure ? Ever though that it can exist over the Internet also ? Ever wondered why the heck does newsgroup have names that classify themselves to spread the most topics people want to talk about ? Read the r.a.s. FAQ, I would suggest. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I refer you to the recent thread called I'll miss you. I seem to remember you talking about archiving totally unrelated stuff in your RAS history archives and calling it a classic. Sit on one side of the fence or the other buddy. Hmmm. Maybe we'd all do well to read the charter again. > > SO F***ING WHAT? Does anyone other than you really care if someone posts

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> > something that relates to motorsports that's not on the computer? No. > And if > > you don't like it, no one says you have to read this thread.... > I see your from AO also... > Your a proud Usenet Anarchist I guess ? > Ever heard of structure ? Ever though that it can exist over the Internet > also ? Ever wondered why the heck does newsgroup have names that classify > themselves to spread the most topics people want to talk about ? > Read the r.a.s. FAQ, I would suggest. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> > -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ > -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ > -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Anybody know where i could get hold of a .mpg/.avi or something like that of the mercedes crash ?!? dAve Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

uh ? Your talking about the guy who posted some sort of love letter on the newsgroup ? I was just adding to the share weirdness of this message, by adding on myself a totally weird reply about a RAS History archives. We all know there is no need for one. There is Dejanews. I don't see the relation at all. In the reply I did to the person above, he was publically showing some trollesque comments, with bad language and so. There is a whole world of difference between what the guy said ("SO F**** WHAT) and the other (could had been indeed a troll, or maybe just somebody who did an error between his news server and mail server). The first is an Usenet arnachist, who doesn't know at all about usenet structure and so. I just told him to read the FAQ so he could learn. I don't see your point, not at all. If it was a flame attempt on me, you missed your shot, Mark. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Francois. First of all I have to say that I wasn't deliberately flaming you. I was merely making an observation. Never fear, you are on my list of respected people in here. Exactly my point. Regardless of how the thread was procreated or it's contents, you added your input and hence posted to an o/t thread. Sure thing There is no relation. The original subject matter in this thread was about the posting of Off topic subjects by some spoilt brat trying to stir up trouble for no valid reason. The other guy who you replied to was defending an opinion shared by myself. Agreed here. He want overboard with his demeanour. I'd love to see some more reasoned debate (as we are having here) without all the personal malice that seems to be par for the course. My point with you was that we have all posted off topic stuff in here at one time or another. You are as guilty as the next man EG most recently your reply to the unfortunate guy who got his reader wires crossed up. That's not a problem with most people here. All I am saying is that we cannot do this and then flame somebody else as you did, for commiting the same offence at a later date. By all means have a pop with people who indulge in personal abuse and bad language against others though. I'll back you up every time there. If it was a flame attempt on me, you > missed your shot, Mark. You would know if it was a flame buddy, I've got a loaded barrel full of napalm around here somewhere <G> cheers mate Mark

I can't believe this thread! There is a community of people in the newsgroup who contribute regular on topic comments. Since these people value the opinions of the other regulars on sim related matters they would also value comments on SLIGHLY off topic subjects they might also have some expertise in. Since many people who enjoy the sims also enjoy viewing the real thing this is an appropriate place to generate interesting and stimulating threads on motor racing in general. Looking at the number of people who participate in these threads tells me they are not only welcomed but are a source of good comparisons of sim vs real life. There is no anarchy in this. What do you want us to do when we want an opinion from a RAS regular on an OT? Do you want us to fill RAS with requests for people to read our mail in other newsgroups?

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> > SO F***ING WHAT? Does anyone other than you really care if someone posts > > something that relates to motorsports that's not on the computer? No. > And if > > you don't like it, no one says you have to read this thread.... > I see your from AO also... > Your a proud Usenet Anarchist I guess ? > Ever heard of structure ? Ever though that it can exist over the Internet > also ? Ever wondered why the heck does newsgroup have names that classify > themselves to spread the most topics people want to talk about ? > Read the r.a.s. FAQ, I would suggest. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> > -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ > -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ > -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

In which case a post like: Hey SCGT fans, there is an interesting post going on over in r.a.s.misc about the Merk incident at le mans, why not check it out is in order. This is about on topic issues, not what a large % of people might enjoy to read about. I'm sure most RAS fans are interested in sex, but i'm not about to post my weekend's actvities here. (try alt.sex.stories.moderated? :P) Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

The point here is that Usenet is categorised for a reason. If we all talk slightly off topic all the time what is the point of the groupings? M

Hey, sorry guys, I was a little on edge the other day. I had dropped my mouse off the tabletop and it landed on some disks and clicked the left mouse button, deleting a program that I have no backup of that I needed to run another program. Anyone here have Windows Messanging? (OFF TOPIC) <g> Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited

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>Hey SCGT fans, there is an interesting post going on over in r.a.s.misc about >the Merk incident at le mans, why not check it out is in order. >This is about on topic issues, not what a large % of people might enjoy to >read about. >I'm sure most RAS fans are interested in sex, but i'm not about to post my >weekend's actvities here. (try alt.sex.stories.moderated? :P)

Or alt.lonely.whacking.off? Seems like every message I see from you is telling other people how to post. If I see your name more than 3 times in a thread, I know it's a flame war. Apparently, you're oblivious to the fact that you cause a bigger shit-storm by doing this than by ignoring the message. If you think you're making the newsgroup better, you're wrong. You're just poisoning the casual atmosphere of a great newsgroup. I don't know what annoys me more, you never posting *anything* of value, or Y(oda)Menard posting good stuff along with a bunch of Phantom Menace horseshit, then being hypocritical enough to bag on someone for posting something off-topic... event though it's MORE on-topic than some of his messages. I know I'll probably regret sending this, but I can't frigging stand it anymore. Zonkie, I wish you would take a flying ***in' leap. Tim

Okie no problem ;-P Fear attracts the Fearfull. The strong. The weak. The innocent. The corrupt. Oops sorry :) Good point. Hyprocite a little that was from me. Well, that's exactly my point. I have my personnal opinion on the level of "Off-Topicness" of some stuff, that's why I felt that somebody saying derogative comments and foul language is something much more valuable to correct than somebody who posted that love letter, who made many of us laugh, compared to the other person who was just a plain troll from AOL ;-) Ok cya, I was just unsure, sorry also :)> -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I will send it to Dan Belcher tomorrow, he will post it in his page ... http://members.xoom.com/simcrash1/simcrash McKafre De La Rosa

Right on man. And while we are on the subject howsabout we all go around in Khaki overalls and quote lines from a little red book Mark

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> The point here is that Usenet is categorised for a reason. If we all talk > slightly off topic all the time what is the point of the groupings? > M > >In which case a post like: > >Hey SCGT fans, there is an interesting post going on over in r.a.s.misc > >about the Merk incident at le mans, why not check it out is in order. > >This is about on topic issues, not what a large % of people might enjoy > >to read about. > >I'm sure most RAS fans are interested in sex, but i'm not about to post > >my weekend's actvities here. (try alt.sex.stories.moderated? :P) > >Z. > >Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Funny you should bring this up again Tim. I did a search for all messages posted by our friend here. In most cases, he is either trying to outdo, belittle or cause tension with someone else! I almost forgot. He has posted off topic stuff himself hehehehe. Mark > >Hey SCGT fans, there is an interesting post going on over in r.a.s.misc about > >the Merk incident at le mans, why not check it out is in order. > >This is about on topic issues, not what a large % of people might enjoy to > >read about. > >I'm sure most RAS fans are interested in sex, but i'm not about to post my

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> >weekend's actvities here. (try alt.sex.stories.moderated? :P) > Or alt.lonely.whacking.off? > Seems like every message I see from you is telling other people how to > post. If I see your name more than 3 times in a thread, I know it's a > flame war. > Apparently, you're oblivious to the fact that you cause a bigger > shit-storm by doing this than by ignoring the message. > If you think you're making the newsgroup better, you're wrong. You're > just poisoning the casual atmosphere of a great newsgroup. > I don't know what annoys me more, you never posting *anything* of > value, or Y(oda)Menard posting good stuff along with a bunch of > Phantom Menace horseshit, then being hypocritical enough to bag on > someone for posting something off-topic... event though it's MORE > on-topic than some of his messages. > I know I'll probably regret sending this, but I can't frigging stand > it anymore. Zonkie, I wish you would take a flying ***in' leap. > Tim

% I can't believe this thread! % There is a community of people in the newsgroup who contribute regular on topic % comments. Since these people value the opinions of the other regulars on sim <snip> The keyword is community! That's what it is. Over the years we have formed a community of people who really enjoy sim racing (some would say they love it too much <G>). From time to time this community of like-minded folks like to get into a little discussion that is "off-topic". In my book that is okay (if in fact it is only "from time to time"). The long time members of the community have formed quite a bond of friendship (or just flat out hatred in some cases <G>). They therefore enjoy sharing a thought or idea that is not strictly sim-racing related with their fellow community members. No harm, no foul.... This time of community is what helps keep r.a.s. alive and worth visiting IMHO. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I know how to use a killfile, be sure. And <shudder> I think I KNOW what is a killfile now that I think about it ;) And remember, as I said I have my own set of what is and what is not off-topic. Everybody has their own opinion, I shared mine. I love this community, I don't mind about off-topic posts, even from you Scott btw ;-P. But the person was on purpose using derogative comments and just not caring at all, and I felt that his Usenet-anarchist matters should be a little cleared up, no ? I mean, it's just an off-topic message, but let's keep everybody on a straight line, ok ? :) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

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>>Hey SCGT fans, there is an interesting post going on over in r.a.s.misc about >>the Merk incident at le mans, why not check it out is in order. >>This is about on topic issues, not what a large % of people might enjoy to >>read about. >>I'm sure most RAS fans are interested in sex, but i'm not about to post my >>weekend's actvities here. (try alt.sex.stories.moderated? :P) >Or alt.lonely.whacking.off?

sadly, i have to disappoint you. But it appear someone was whacking off in my camper. Didn't catch 'em, but i suspect it was you. I'm not telling anyone how to post. If i was that manical about it'd i'd run a cancel bot. er... casual... right... if you want a look at a casual group, try most of alt.* causal to the extent that no one is on topic. Personally i wish all the morbid ***ers who get wood everytime there is some kind of car crash and love to chat about it and download video's and *** off at it and then slam arcade racers for high silly crash modes and the like are self indulgent sicko's. (you may notice, i object most to those crash releasted motorsport threads. There is a point). I wish you'd get laid, try your mum. She could suck a salami through a 12 foot hose. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

I knew I should have tried a rational approach, but I didn't because I saw others try it and it was futile with you. At least this is fun. >sadly, i have to disappoint you. But it appear someone was whacking off in my >camper. Didn't catch 'em, but i suspect it was you. DNA test it. You can do it with your built in DNA laboratory (AKA your tongue). He-hee! Thanks for the sage info. Better than doing your mom, I guess. That*** removal operation she had isn't too convincing. Tim

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>I knew I should have tried a rational approach, but I didn't because I >saw others try it and it was futile with you. At least this is fun. >>sadly, i have to disappoint you. But it appear someone was whacking off in my >>camper. Didn't catch 'em, but i suspect it was you. >DNA test it. You can do it with your built in DNA laboratory (AKA your >tongue). >>I wish you'd get laid, try your mum. She could suck a salami through a 12 foot >>hose. >He-hee! Thanks for the sage info. Better than doing your mom, I guess. >That*** removal operation she had isn't too convincing. >Tim

You disappoint me tim. I'd have at least hoped you'd comment on my valid comments too. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Regardless of whether we do go off topic or not from time to time, we shouldn't. The point *I* was making, you ignorant ***, is that the post about Mercedes was off topic and that Zonkies suggestion about checking out an alternate NG was a good idea. After all, you might actually find it's pretty interesting. M

You call me an ignorant what? There goes your credibility out of the window if that is all you can offer by way of reasoned debate. I am open to arguments of opinion from all quarters provided people can articulate their message without resorting to personal jibes of this nature The point *I* was making, you ignorant ***, is that the post That guy was suggesting nothing. He cut into this thread in an abrupt manner and then tried dictating to people in an extremely aggresive way - the hypocryte that he is, posting off topic stuff himself elsewhere. There is a subtle difference. You and him are one of a kind when it comes to intelligence aren't you. You run out of capacity to applying logic at the first hurdle and hence have to resort to common denominator vulgarity and personal attacks. Mark p.s. Look what I just found. Care to come and discuss this in rec.bad.marshalling.at.the.ring?

No, actually I haven't run out of "capacity to applying logic at the first hurdle" at all, I just wasn't aware that your comment was a hurdle nor intelligent. The use of profanity was as a punctuation to my comment rather than the core. If you want to go back you'll find that this was the first such comment I've made, thus it is hardly anything to make any wild assumptions from. Had you made an intelligent comment rather than a relatively unfunny one liner I'd have created a more detailled response. As it was I felt it was uneccesary. Whatever your viewpoint, opinion or disagreement with the previous posts was, you never made it at all clear. Perhaps if you had done I wouldn't have replied in that tone. Care to re-read the post you just took offence to? Perhaps you want to read the bit where I said "Regardless of whether we do go off topic or not from time to time, we shouldn't."? I go off topic, in fact I think pretty much everyone here has at times. Whatever... the point is a valid one. Can you tell me that you disagree with people preferring on topic posting than off topic? M

>You call me an ignorant what? >There goes your credibility out of the window if that is all you can offer >by way of reasoned debate. I am open to arguments of opinion from all >quarters provided people can articulate their message without resorting to >personal jibes of this nature I believe he called you an ignorant ***. Which is pretty much what you said to him by: Which is about the most silly thing i've read all week. Congrads! Z. (who is not calling you an ignorant ***... just... ignorant..) Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

I just can't believe what i started here.... sa w

I don't disagree with this at all. My original reply to the guy was quite civil when he butted in. His terse replies were what got my back up as well as several other people's. I guess your input came at an inopportune time. Feelings were running quite high and your comment just added fuel. I think it is time for everyone to cool down and call a day on this pointless excercise. Mark

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha *PLONK* > >You call me an ignorant what? > >There goes your credibility out of the window if that is all you can offer > >by way of reasoned debate. I am open to arguments of opinion from all > >quarters provided people can articulate their message without resorting to > >personal jibes of this nature > I believe he called you an ignorant ***. Which is pretty much what you said

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> to him by: > >Right on man. And while we are on the subject howsabout we all go around > >in Khaki overalls and quote lines from a little red book > >Mark > Which is about the most silly thing i've read all week. Congrads! > Z. > (who is not calling you an ignorant ***... just... ignorant..) > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

No worries mate. You never started anything <G> Mark

Oh, that reminds me. This past weekend I decided to visit the zoo. That's when I first saw her. Isabel her name was. A more beautiful elephant I have never seen. Those glistening eyes, those huge, bulging thighs. The impulse was irresistible so I jumped the fence, crept up behind her and.............. Anyway, on the way out I spied a box someone had dropped into the ditch between the fence and the main elephant enclosure. To my utter amazement it was a copy of GP3 still with plastic cover intact. I rushed home, installed it and just as the install completed I suffered a hard drive crash. There was also this strange rumbling in the distance. Yep, you guessed it. At that moment a herd of male elephants stampeded through my lounge room, making sure to smash the GP3 cd in the process. Oh well, I didn't feel to good about getting a free copy anyway. Was good while it lasted - what a day! Thought things were going a bit too well!

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> In which case a post like: > Hey SCGT fans, there is an interesting post going on over in r.a.s.misc about > the Merk incident at le mans, why not check it out is in order. > This is about on topic issues, not what a large % of people might enjoy to > read about. > I'm sure most RAS fans are interested in sex, but i'm not about to post my > weekend's actvities here. (try alt.sex.stories.moderated? :P) > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

>You disappoint me tim. I'd have at least hoped you'd comment on my valid >comments too. Fair enough. The Mercedes accident was extremely flukey, so I could understand anyone wanting to see it. I don't think it really had anything to do with people being gore-hounds, since the driver of the car is OK. Thank God it didn't blow over on a straightaway with a grandstand. I thought the accident was interesting, because If I saw it in a sim, I'd say something was seriously wrong with that sims physics model. Very weird. Tim

Somebody please mention the German dictatorship between '33 and '45, so this thread may rest in peace. ;) -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Let's see......sex and Motorsim...not related. Real racing and motorsims...closely related. I think your argument is a little bit off the mark. It is very hard to relate sex with motorsims unless you are going for the fastest time!

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> >I can't believe this thread! > >There is a community of people in the newsgroup who contribute regular on topic > >comments. Since these people value the opinions of the other regulars on sim > >related matters they would also value comments on SLIGHLY off topic subjects > >they might also have some expertise in. Since many people who enjoy the sims > >also enjoy viewing the real thing this is an appropriate place to generate > >interesting and stimulating threads on motor racing in general. Looking at the > >number of people who participate in these threads tells me they are not only > >welcomed but are a source of good comparisons of sim vs real life. There is no > >anarchy in this. What do you want us to do when we want an opinion from a RAS > >regular on an OT? Do you want us to fill RAS with requests for people to read > >our mail in other newsgroups? > In which case a post like: > Hey SCGT fans, there is an interesting post going on over in r.a.s.misc about > the Merk incident at le mans, why not check it out is in order. > This is about on topic issues, not what a large % of people might enjoy to > read about. > I'm sure most RAS fans are interested in sex, but i'm not about to post my > weekend's actvities here. (try alt.sex.stories.moderated? :P) > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

All of the time? 95% of the messages are on topic and the ones concerning real racing are only a little off topic and still of interest to MOST sim fans. Look at the threads of the discussions of real racing. They generally compare what happened to sim experience, physics and realism. Very on topic if you ask me.

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> The point here is that Usenet is categorised for a reason. If we all talk > slightly off topic all the time what is the point of the groupings? > M > >In which case a post like: > >Hey SCGT fans, there is an interesting post going on over in r.a.s.misc > >about the Merk incident at le mans, why not check it out is in order. > >This is about on topic issues, not what a large % of people might enjoy > >to read about. > >I'm sure most RAS fans are interested in sex, but i'm not about to post > >my weekend's actvities here. (try alt.sex.stories.moderated? :P) > >Z. > >Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

People who like sims like real racing. People who like sims like to discuss real racing with the smae people they discuss sims. Apart from you and Z I have never encountered anybody arguing against the 5% of messages (well 50% since this thread started) about real racing. Perhaps you should go back and read some of the off topic threads you are having kittens about. In one way or another they relate to peoples sim experiences and expectations. If we were talking about the mating habits of the Tasmanian Aardvark then you would have something to whine about.

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> >You call me an ignorant what? > >There goes your credibility out of the window if that is all you can > >offer by way of reasoned debate. I am open to arguments of opinion from > >all quarters provided people can articulate their message without > >resorting to personal jibes of this nature > >That guy was suggesting nothing. He cut into this thread in an abrupt > >manner and then tried dictating to people in an extremely aggresive way > >- the hypocryte that he is, posting off topic stuff himself elsewhere. > >There is a subtle difference. You and him are one of a kind when it > >comes to intelligence aren't you. You run out of capacity to applying > >logic at the first hurdle and hence have to resort to common denominator > >vulgarity and personal attacks. > No, actually I haven't run out of "capacity to applying logic at the > first hurdle" at all, I just wasn't aware that your comment was a hurdle > nor intelligent. The use of profanity was as a punctuation to my comment > rather than the core. If you want to go back you'll find that this was > the first such comment I've made, thus it is hardly anything to make any > wild assumptions from. > Had you made an intelligent comment rather than a relatively unfunny one > liner I'd have created a more detailled response. As it was I felt it was > uneccesary. > Whatever your viewpoint, opinion or disagreement with the previous posts > was, you never made it at all clear. Perhaps if you had done I wouldn't > have replied in that tone. > >Care to come and discuss this in rec.bad.marshalling.at.the.ring? > Care to re-read the post you just took offence to? Perhaps you want to > read the bit where I said "Regardless of whether we do go off topic or > not from time to time, we shouldn't."? I go off topic, in fact I think > pretty much everyone here has at times. > Whatever... the point is a valid one. Can you tell me that you disagree > with people preferring on topic posting than off topic? > M

So people who wish to know why a Mercedes becomes airborn twice in a week and nearly kills two of the worlds upcoming drivers are morbid sickos. Good logic. I would love to continue with this brilliant concept but I have some kittens to drown and***videos to watch!

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> >>Hey SCGT fans, there is an interesting post going on over in r.a.s.misc about > >>the Merk incident at le mans, why not check it out is in order. > >>This is about on topic issues, not what a large % of people might enjoy to > >>read about. > >>I'm sure most RAS fans are interested in sex, but i'm not about to post my > >>weekend's actvities here. (try alt.sex.stories.moderated? :P) > >Or alt.lonely.whacking.off? > sadly, i have to disappoint you. But it appear someone was whacking off in my > camper. Didn't catch 'em, but i suspect it was you. > >Seems like every message I see from you is telling other people how to > >post. If I see your name more than 3 times in a thread, I know it's a > >flame war. > I'm not telling anyone how to post. If i was that manical about it'd i'd run a > cancel bot. > >Apparently, you're oblivious to the fact that you cause a bigger > >shit-storm by doing this than by ignoring the message. > >If you think you're making the newsgroup better, you're wrong. You're > >just poisoning the casual atmosphere of a great newsgroup. > er... casual... right... if you want a look at a casual group, try most of > alt.* causal to the extent that no one is on topic. > >I know I'll probably regret sending this, but I can't frigging stand > >it anymore. Zonkie, I wish you would take a flying ***in' leap. > Personally i wish all the morbid ***ers who get wood everytime there is some > kind of car crash and love to chat about it and download video's and *** off > at it and then slam arcade racers for high silly crash modes and the like are > self indulgent sicko's. > (you may notice, i object most to those crash releasted motorsport threads. > There is a point). > I wish you'd get laid, try your mum. She could suck a salami through a 12 foot > hose. > Z. > >Tim > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Jesus you're dense. Is it *so* hard to add another newsgroup to your subscribed list that people need to have discussions about real racing here. I engage in discussions about "real racing" on ras.f1 or ras.indy or ras.nascar or whatever and sim racing here. That is the point of Usenet. Do you think there are large Quake threads in Half-Life newsgroups or perhaps large ASP threads in the Cold Fusion groups? After all, they're similar and a lot of people are interested in both so why not? The answer is that the structure of the groups is formed to provide forums for people to talk about specific subjects NOT whatever they want. My argument was that on a level of what is *supposed* to be done on newgroups we should try to keep real racing on the appropriate group and let the people who want to see them subscribe to them directly rather than being forced to wade past them. It doesn't really matter whether people are interested or not, off topic is off topic. The argument of degrees of off topic-ness is reminding me of a friend who once described analogue as "varying degrees of on and off". Something is either on or off, no? Personally on topic/off topic doesn't really bother me unless I'm using a modem, something I don't have to do any more that often fortunately. Whatever... M

Quite so. but to say "nearly" killed is a reaaaaal stretch. No significant injuries to either. But i stand by it. If you weren't watching the race,and no interest in doign so till the accident occured..... Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Back to the on-topic-off-topic part of this thread, Mercedes have withdrawn the CLR's from the Norisring race and thus it's been cancelled. M

LOL. > So people who wish to know why a Mercedes becomes airborn twice in a week and > nearly kills two of the worlds upcoming drivers are morbid sickos. Good logic. I > would love to continue with this brilliant concept but I have some kittens to drown > and***videos to watch!

Once again logic loses out to abuse. Calling Jesus dense doesn't really add to the debate and since I am not him I don't see why you mentioned his intelligence in the first place. Lets see, if on an average day 250 posts are sent to this news group and even 10% of them are off topic then with a 56KB modem it would probably take less than 5 seconds to download the headers for these 25 off topic messages. I apologise if this extra 5 seconds a day is important to you but if you estimate the time you have wasted with this thread it probably adds up to several years worth of just ignoring the off topic messages and letting others enjoy them! OH, I forgot, you are too good for a modem so lets see, if you use a cable modem like myself it would add up to less than 1/2 a second per day to load those *** 25 off topic headers.

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> Jesus you're dense. Is it *so* hard to add another newsgroup to your > subscribed list that people need to have discussions about real racing > here. I engage in discussions about "real racing" on ras.f1 or ras.indy > or ras.nascar or whatever and sim racing here. That is the point of > Usenet. Do you think there are large Quake threads in Half-Life > newsgroups or perhaps large ASP threads in the Cold Fusion groups? After > all, they're similar and a lot of people are interested in both so why > not? The answer is that the structure of the groups is formed to provide > forums for people to talk about specific subjects NOT whatever they want. > My argument was that on a level of what is *supposed* to be done on > newgroups we should try to keep real racing on the appropriate group and > let the people who want to see them subscribe to them directly rather > than being forced to wade past them. It doesn't really matter whether > people are interested or not, off topic is off topic. The argument of > degrees of off topic-ness is reminding me of a friend who once described > analogue as "varying degrees of on and off". Something is either on or off, > no? > Personally on topic/off topic doesn't really bother me unless I'm using a > modem, something I don't have to do any more that often fortunately. > Whatever... > M > >People who like sims like real racing. People who like sims like to > >discuss real racing with the smae people they discuss sims. Apart from > >you and Z I have never encountered anybody arguing against the 5% of > >messages (well 50% since this thread started) about real racing. Perhaps > >you should go back and read some of the off topic threads you are having > >kittens about. In one way or another they relate to peoples sim > >experiences and expectations. If we were talking about the mating habits > >of the Tasmanian Aardvark then you would have something to whine about.

lack of injury does not equate to not being nearly killed. A bullet flying past 1mm from your temple would be rated a near death experience. The same when your Mercedes flies off the track at 300 KMH and does several somersaults before landing heavily. I agree that there are morbid race fans who revel at the crashes, hence the popularity of HAvox tapes. I get rather upset at local TV that only show highlights of major motorcycle events if there is a good crash involved.

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> >So people who wish to know why a Mercedes becomes airborn twice in a week and > >nearly kills two of the worlds upcoming drivers are morbid sickos. Good logic. > > I > >would love to continue with this brilliant concept but I have some kittens to > > drown > >and***videos to watch! > Quite so. but to say "nearly" killed is a reaaaaal stretch. No significant > injuries to either. But i stand by it. If you weren't watching the race,and no > interest in doign so till the accident occured..... > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.