Open letter to Papy on...

... the differences between the different classes (F1, F2, F3) in GPL... OK, I have been thinking a lot, and in the process have asked myself several questions: Is the slip angle curve the same in F1 and F3 (Basic trainer)? It feels like F3 gives less grip when going over the top of the slip angle curve. In F1 you can step solidly over the line where the grip should diminish rapidly and still retain grip, in F3 you can't. Is it the same? Are the F3 engines identical in all cars? Do they have the same torque curves? Do the cars have individual weight and weight distribution in F3? Is there any line in the .ini setup files that say anything about the slip angle in each class? Are GPL using a slip angle curve closely matching the slip angle curves of the tires of the era? I'd love to hear what Papyrus have put in there, and these questions can be answered by "yes" and "no", and that hardly compromises any secrecy vows, does it? ... ;-) Furthermore, I think that the weakest aspect of GPL is the way the setup options affect grip. In the RW, you always have a trade-off between grip and responsiveness, this isn't very much present in GPL I think. In other words, a stiff spring affects the way the car rolls and dives, but it doesn't seem to affect the grip produced by that tyre... Otherwise, GPL is splendid, graphically flawless, and with a feel for the car that is unbelievable! And the patch will make the game outstanding in respect of online racing as well. The online part of GPL is done sooo well, the prospect of getting the online racing to work well was dark, but Papy made it, they sure did. ---Asgeir---

Ok, I'm not from Papyrus but I'll take a stab at some unofficial responses, based on what I've heard while*** around in Watertown... On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:15:05 +0200, asgeir nes?en

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>... the differences between the different classes (F1, F2, F3) in GPL... >OK, I have been thinking a lot, and in the process have asked myself >several questions: >Is the slip angle curve the same in F1 and F3 (Basic trainer)? It feels >like F3 gives less grip when going over the top of the slip angle curve. >In F1 you can step solidly over the line where the grip should diminish >rapidly and still retain grip, in F3 you can't. Is it the same?

The Trainers do have slightly less grip than the GP cars. I can't comment on the shape of the slip angle curve, however, because I just don't know. Yes. All the Basic Trainers have identical engines (140 hp), and all the Advanced Trainers have identical engines (about 270 hp, I believe). All the Trainers weigh exactly the same as their GP counterparts. The BT Lotus weighs the same as the GP Lotus, etc. I'm not aware of any such line. I believe Papyrus did their utmost to replicate the slip angle curves as closely as possible, given the difficulty of acquiring accurate data on tires of 30 years ago. This was a very high priority item. This may be related more to GPL's modeling of the track surface, which lacks the small, high-frequency bumps of real world tracks, as opposed to a deficiency in the physics model. If GPL's track surfaces were rougher, stiffer springs and shocks probably would cause a deterioration in grip just as they do in real life. I agree! Alison Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. [link lost in import]

Thanks for anwering, Allison. It's soooo nice when the racing sim developers, or in this case beta testers, indulge in discussing their products with mere mortals ;-) But seriously, I think listening to the internet sim community, is a key to developing a good sim these days. Well, the reason for me asking these questions is that I find it strange that it is, with GPL, quite easy to throw the car into four wheel drifts in almost every turn, and on top of that doing it without any feel from the car like G-forces/balance, and spine reactions. This leads me to think that you have too much grip when going sideways, and this in turn led me to slip angles and tyre grip curves. But then, that extra grip (in comparison to the Real -67 cars) enabling us to do the four wheel slides easily, might come from the lack of simulation of the high speed bumps, I think a tyre going over the slip angle on a rough surface should produce very little grip! Even less than when you're on the "right" side of the slip angle... But what do I know... :-) Finally, I think that F3 online racing will grow big, I find it closer, challenging, and really just as tough as racing F1, only with different focus. When I drive F3 races I focus way more on steering input than pedal input, at least in comparison to F1. And you need to "feel" the car very well to race the F3 cars fast. In some ways it's more difficult to race the F3 than the F1, you don't have the awesome engine to save you from errors... And the hotshots never lap 5 secs faster than yourself, and that in itself is quite good for close, social racing! Cheers! ---Asgeir---

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> [SNIP] > Finally, I think that F3 online racing will grow big, I find it closer, > challenging, and really just as tough as racing F1, only with different > focus. When I drive F3 races I focus way more on steering input than > pedal input, at least in comparison to F1. And you need to "feel" the > car very well to race the F3 cars fast. In some ways it's more difficult > to race the F3 than the F1, you don't have the awesome engine to save > you from errors... And the hotshots never lap 5 secs faster than > yourself, and that in itself is quite good for close, social racing!

Except that Mike Barlow bloke, who is at least 5 seconds faster than everyone else whenever I've raced against him! Anyone would think he spends all his time practising in F3s... ;-)

Oh, his F3 superiority is exaggerated, at least I have managed to beat him several times... And he's certainly not lapping 5 secs faster than me all the time. But then I race only F3 online as well... 5 secs in F3 is a lot, I'd say it is the difference between the occasional F3 racer, and the devoted F3 racer, and we all know how many hours the devoted simmer spend practicing. ---Asgeir---

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> > [SNIP] > > Finally, I think that F3 online racing will grow big, I find it closer, > > challenging, and really just as tough as racing F1, only with different > > focus. When I drive F3 races I focus way more on steering input than > > pedal input, at least in comparison to F1. And you need to "feel" the > > car very well to race the F3 cars fast. In some ways it's more difficult > > to race the F3 than the F1, you don't have the awesome engine to save > > you from errors... And the hotshots never lap 5 secs faster than > > yourself, and that in itself is quite good for close, social racing! > Except that Mike Barlow bloke, who is at least 5 seconds faster than > everyone else whenever I've raced against him! > Anyone would think he spends all his time practising in F3s... ;-)

Quite correct Asgeir. Mike is the main man in terms of hosting F3 races. There is a group of about 5 regular runners, myself included who lap at around the same pace as Mike. Depending on the track, each of us has an edge on the others somewhere. I think the 5 sec difference can be explained by the number of first time F3 racers who come in to have a go. They think that the "little cars will be a doddle to play with" Most of these people leave a track in a state of shock when they realise what it takes to be a winner in this category <G> If you really want to see fast F3 driving taken to the extreme, check out Jake Myers. He is gurrently leading the GPML series by a country mile. I hate ya Jake BTW <G> Mark > Oh, his F3 superiority is exaggerated, at least I have managed to beat him > several times... And he's certainly not lapping 5 secs faster than me all the > time. But then I race only F3 online as well... > 5 secs in F3 is a lot, I'd say it is the difference between the occasional F3 > racer, and the devoted F3 racer, and we all know how many hours the devoted

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> simmer spend practicing. > ---Asgeir--- > > > [SNIP] > > > Finally, I think that F3 online racing will grow big, I find it

closer, > > > challenging, and really just as tough as racing F1, only with different > > > focus. When I drive F3 races I focus way more on steering input than > > > pedal input, at least in comparison to F1. And you need to "feel" the > > > car very well to race the F3 cars fast. In some ways it's more difficult

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> > > to race the F3 than the F1, you don't have the awesome engine to save > > > you from errors... And the hotshots never lap 5 secs faster than > > > yourself, and that in itself is quite good for close, social racing! > > Except that Mike Barlow bloke, who is at least 5 seconds faster than > > everyone else whenever I've raced against him! > > Anyone would think he spends all his time practising in F3s... ;-)