Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

I finally found out how to avoid the problems I have had with GPL and my TNT. PROBLEM With TNT on 378MHz Celeron, GPL is impossible to drive consistently. I set the graphics options to get around 36fps but even though the framerate dsiplay shows 36 most of the time, it's obvious that the framerate is not consistent. I was lucky if I could get more than two laps into a race without spinning off. SOLUTION Last night I gave up on my TNT and switched it for the Banshee in my other machine. With exactly the same graphics settings as the TNT, the Banshee gave a solid 35.xx framerate from seconds after the start. With the banshee and a consistent framerate it was much easier to control and it didn't take long to improve my lap time. More to the point, it was MUCH MORE FUN!! I completed my first race, with a lot of close racing with Surtees (yes I'm still down towards the rear of the grid). I wonder how many people using TNT think they are getting good framerates, but then say that GPL is too difficult. If they just switched to a supported card they might find it a completely different sim. Greg.

Well Paul I have been here, there & everywhere on this very subject and do not buy the 'Voodoo3 2000' if you want to use another card with it because the 3dfx Voodoo3 2000, 3000 & 3500 are all stand alone cards & you'll have to take out any other video card in your pc. I got this info right from tech support at 3DFX.. Good luck Thom_j. > I'd have to agree with that. > I'm going to go and see if I can buy my Voodoo2 back from my friend. > Going to keep my TNT2 and run the V2 in there as well......actually might be

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> better with a PCI V3 2000 if the prices are only around $100.00 US. > > I finally found out how to avoid the problems I have had with > > GPL and my TNT. > > PROBLEM > > With TNT on 378MHz Celeron, GPL is impossible to drive consistently. > > I set the graphics options to get around 36fps but even though the > > framerate dsiplay shows 36 most of the time, it's obvious that the > > framerate is not consistent. I was lucky if I could get more than > > two laps into a race without spinning off. > > SOLUTION > > Last night I gave up on my TNT and switched it for the Banshee in > > my other machine. With exactly the same graphics settings as the > > TNT, the Banshee gave a solid 35.xx framerate from seconds after > > the start. > > With the banshee and a consistent framerate it was much easier to > > control and it didn't take long to improve my lap time. More to > > the point, it was MUCH MORE FUN!! I completed my first race, with > > a lot of close racing with Surtees (yes I'm still down towards the > > rear of the grid). > > I wonder how many people using TNT think they are getting good > > framerates, but then say that GPL is too difficult. If they > > just switched to a supported card they might find it a completely > > different sim. > > Greg.

Hey, you're totally in the wilderness here. My TNT gives me 36fps most of the time with 12 AI cars and ALL graphics on except for the mirrors. I have a Celeron running on 450MHz. But as always with computer hardware you have to get the setup right...

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>I finally found out how to avoid the problems I have had with >GPL and my TNT. >PROBLEM > With TNT on 378MHz Celeron, GPL is impossible to drive consistently. > I set the graphics options to get around 36fps but even though the > framerate dsiplay shows 36 most of the time, it's obvious that the > framerate is not consistent. I was lucky if I could get more than > two laps into a race without spinning off. >SOLUTION > Last night I gave up on my TNT and switched it for the Banshee in > my other machine. With exactly the same graphics settings as the > TNT, the Banshee gave a solid 35.xx framerate from seconds after > the start. > With the banshee and a consistent framerate it was much easier to > control and it didn't take long to improve my lap time. More to > the point, it was MUCH MORE FUN!! I completed my first race, with > a lot of close racing with Surtees (yes I'm still down towards the > rear of the grid). >I wonder how many people using TNT think they are getting good >framerates, but then say that GPL is too difficult. If they >just switched to a supported card they might find it a completely >different sim. >Greg.

I never understood the decision to not support D3d or at least opengl. GPL is amoung, if not, the most advanced sim for physics and graphics, yet it only included glide? Methinks the ceo of 3dfx and the ceo of papy are in bed together as we speak....

The best option surely is to get the TNT2 Ultra from Hercules(the fastest TNT2 you can get) and do what i do, which is to run GPL with my voodoo2 in SLI ....why bother with the naff Banshee at all??????????

I'd have to agree with that. I'm going to go and see if I can buy my Voodoo2 back from my friend. Going to keep my TNT2 and run the V2 in there as well......actually might be better with a PCI V3 2000 if the prices are only around $100.00 US.

With a celeron 450 and a no-name banshee.... I got 36 fps rock stable at 800x600 with 19AI..... I can even reach 1600x1200... ;-) >Hey, you're totally in the wilderness here. My TNT gives me 36fps most of >the time with 12 AI cars and ALL graphics on except for the mirrors. I have >a Celeron running on 450MHz. But as always with >computer hardware you have to get the setup right...

Me thinks you hit the nail right on the head.............

Can you believe that Diablo II is also Glide only! Lucky I still have some Voodoo 2's lying around.....

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> Me thinks you hit the nail right on the head............. > > I never understood the decision to not support D3d or at least opengl. > GPL > > is amoung, if not, the most advanced sim for physics and graphics, yet it > > only included glide? Methinks the ceo of 3dfx and the ceo of papy are in > > bed together as we speak....

On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:47:36 -0400, "CombatWombat" <COMBATWOMBAT(REMOVE >I never understood the decision to not support D3d or at least opengl. GPL >is amoung, if not, the most advanced sim for physics and graphics, yet it >only included glide? Methinks the ceo of 3dfx and the ceo of papy are in >bed together as we speak.... And what about the Rendition support? :P -- Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo - - V8Supercars - CART -

I think you guys are missing the big picture.Back two (or more?) years ago when Papy started working on GPL, Voodoo/Glide was "da bomb". OpenGL didn't have widespread support, and DirectXcrement was simply too damn hard to program with. They included support for what they viewed as the two most popular proprietary 3D API's. Their decisions were sound. Video technology moves so fast that it's ludicrous to think that any game developer can possibly hope to keep up with what's hot in the industry and STILL release a game on schedule. the technology is ALWAYS going to be a step or two ahead of the games that are available at any given point. If you guys think it's so easy to tell the future, why don't *you* become game developers... says...

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> Me thinks you hit the nail right on the head............. > > I never understood the decision to not support D3d or at least opengl. > GPL > > is amoung, if not, the most advanced sim for physics and graphics, yet it > > only included glide? Methinks the ceo of 3dfx and the ceo of papy are in > > bed together as we speak....

-- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html IGPS (Season 2) Director http://207.104.111.77/igps2/igps2.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

>I think you guys are missing the big picture.Back two (or more?) years >ago when Papy started working on GPL, Voodoo/Glide was "da bomb". OpenGL >didn't have widespread support, and DirectXcrement was simply too damn >hard to program with. They included support for what they viewed as the >two most popular proprietary 3D API's. To say RRedline was every popular is somewhat dubious 8) On your theory, since Unreal was first started in what 94-95, they should have written for Software rendering and a what P60-90? Technology does change, and devleopers need to allow for it. 12 months ago it was obvious 3Dfx was becoming a spent force as a industry leader, and that Opengl & D3D for their respective faults, was the way to go to support the broadest userbase. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

This is why I am staying with my Herc Thriller for now!! Nothing comes close for Gpl & my system. Also I just bought two 12mg Voodoo2s to SLI for $162. Its more then the $49.99 Creatives refurbs but I wonder if they were really 'refurbs' or just left-over stock & I don't think you'll see anymore at this price but I might be wrong? Won't be the first time! ;O) Cheers Thom_j.

At best, a P90, 8 MB RAM, a 2MB S3 card....oh wait, that's my 4-year old PC! :D (Which has donated its original floppy, monitor, and a modem, CDROM, and network card that were all in there at one time to a PII350 overclocked to 466 :) -- Kirk Lane Tempe, AZ ICQ: 28171652 RMRL #119 >>I think you guys are missing the big picture.Back two (or more?) years >>ago when Papy started working on GPL, Voodoo/Glide was "da bomb". OpenGL >>didn't have widespread support, and DirectXcrement was simply too damn >>hard to program with. They included support for what they viewed as the >>two most popular proprietary 3D API's. >To say RRedline was every popular is somewhat dubious 8) >>Their decisions were sound. Video technology moves so fast that it's >>ludicrous to think that any game developer can possibly hope to keep up >>with what's hot in the industry and STILL release a game on schedule. >>the technology is ALWAYS going to be a step or two ahead of the games >>that are available at any given point. >On your theory, since Unreal was first started in what 94-95, they should have >written for Software rendering and a what P60-90? >Technology does change, and devleopers need to allow for it. 12 months ago it >was obvious 3Dfx was becoming a spent force as a industry leader, and that >Opengl & D3D for their respective faults, was the way to go to support the >broadest userbase. >Z. >Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Lets see, when GPL was written for the most part D3D wasn't really an option simply because it was hard to work in and not every card supported it or the support was weak. OpenGL hardware support has always been spotty..some companies have miniGL implementations which don't expose the full OpenGL spec, some are missing certain parts and others such as Matrox say they have an OpenGL driver and never ship one. Not to mention, remember that Papyrus has had lots of Rendition experience and they had done 3dfx for NROS/N2. If GPL came out now, there might not be any good reasons for Glide/Rendition only....but note also that PNR is coming out with D3D support, so I don't doubt that N3 will have it too.....would be nice to see the 1.1 patch for GPL have D3D support too. :) > On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:47:36 -0400, "CombatWombat" <COMBATWOMBAT(REMOVE > >I never understood the decision to not support D3d or at least opengl. GPL

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> >is amoung, if not, the most advanced sim for physics and graphics, yet it > >only included glide? Methinks the ceo of 3dfx and the ceo of papy are in > >bed together as we speak.... > And what about the Rendition support? :P > -- > Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors > - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo - > - V8Supercars - CART -

Absolutely. But I must admit I'm a bit disappointed 1.1 won't add D3D support. This isn't out of personal need, just because I want GPL to be as accessible as possible to the "average" PC owner. Everyone I know locally with a PC has a 3dfx card and GPL (mainly because I advised them to get both!) But the lack of D3D support must be one of the factors which has slowed GPL's widespread appeal. Given that GPL's unlikely to be beaten for realism in the near future, I still think D3D would be a valuable addition. But it's a lot of work, I'm sure, and there's probably not the budget for it. Andrew McP

>Path: >> Their decisions were sound. >Absolutely. No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy dropped the ball, where many others did not. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

I would be interested in a V3 PCI 3D only card, but not a combo AGP. I want my TNTAGP and Voodoo in PCI, like I always have. All the bases are covered. As soon as they offer a 3D only PCI card, I might buy one. Well, there is that non-competition thing now with 3dfx :( -Larry > I'm going to go and see if I can buy my Voodoo2 back from my friend. > Going to keep my TNT2 and run the V2 in there as well......actually might be > better with a PCI V3 2000 if the prices are only around $100.00 US.

For a start "others" could afford to use D3D even when it was rubbish because their game engines <insert standard IMO disclaimer> are doing much less work, leaving more CPU cycles for D3D. More important from where I'm sitting is the fact that whatever their faults, it was 3dfx which... 1) gave us the 1st really good 3d support, with a market leading product for what, 2 years? Only Intel have a better record of ***. 2) "forced" Microsoft to get their D3D act together, baling out the hardware developers whose products were struggling. So I think Glide was the only serious hardware accelerated option when GPL went into development. A D3D gamble would've paid off, but perfect hindsight is a wonderful invention... I wish I'd thought of it years ago. Andrew McP

No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones who "dropped the ball" Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN. Extremely simple. It was true back in the "100% Sound Blaster Compatible" (NOT) soundcard era, and is true today. I've heard all this complaining about "Company X not supporting my YZ Whizbang card" stuff for the last 10 years, and it is NOT Company X's fault - it's the consumer who wants to believe hype about hardware without paying attention to compatibility. My Soundblaster may not have done some of the stuff those other cards did, but I NEVER had to wait for a patch for a game to work with it - much the same with my 3dfx cards today. IF for whatever reason a non-3dfx card is best for you and the majority of your games, then you buy that KNOWING that GPL is one that WON'T support it, and have to just DEAL WITH IT, instead of whining about Papy and them not being omniscient about what hardware is going to be like in 2 years back when they started. Plus, the fact that GPL and many other games with OpenGL patches don't work that well is that the card makers don't have good drivers for it, they only are really concerned with Quake, etc. with those OpenGL drivers, if anything else works on it than it's a plus. -- Ken's Sig 3.0 "Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan Kenobi Go #43 and #44! volksy (at) geocities (dot) com volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com >>Path: >>> Their decisions were sound. >>Absolutely. >No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy dropped the >ball, where many others did not. >Z. >Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

My complaint about lack of support for OpenGL ( non 3DFX cards ),is directed at Sierra not Papyrus. It shits me that a company like Sierra release games that have different hardware requirements. Sierra has Half Life, full support for Open GL, GLide etc. and then there is GPL rendition and 3dfx only What ever happened to consistency. > No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones who > "dropped the ball" > Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN. Extremely simple. It > was true back in the "100% Sound Blaster Compatible" (NOT) soundcard era, > and is true today. I've heard all this complaining about "Company X not > supporting my YZ Whizbang card" stuff for the last 10 years, and it is NOT > Company X's fault - it's the consumer who wants to believe hype about > hardware without paying attention to compatibility. My Soundblaster may not > have done some of the stuff those other cards did, but I NEVER had to wait > for a patch for a game to work with it - much the same with my 3dfx cards > today. > IF for whatever reason a non-3dfx card is best for you and the majority of > your games, then you buy that KNOWING that GPL is one that WON'T support it, > and have to just DEAL WITH IT, instead of whining about Papy and them not > being omniscient about what hardware is going to be like in 2 years back > when they started. > Plus, the fact that GPL and many other games with OpenGL patches don't work > that well is that the card makers don't have good drivers for it, they only > are really concerned with Quake, etc. with those OpenGL drivers, if anything > else works on it than it's a plus. > -- > Ken's Sig 3.0 > "Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan

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> Kenobi > Go #43 and #44! > volksy (at) geocities (dot) com > volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com > >>Path: > >>> Their decisions were sound. > >>Absolutely. > >No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy

dropped > the > >ball, where many others did not. > >Z. > >Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:07:43 +1000, If the game makers did what you recommend, we would still be playing DOS games. LOL! -- // email: rrevved at mindspring dot com

Sierra doesn't write any of their own games (I don't think). they certainly diodn't write GPL or Half-Life. They're merely publishers. I've already explained why games seem to be a half-step behind the technology but people that think they know better told me I was full of shit. Oh well... -- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html IGPS (Season 2) Director http://207.104.111.77/igps2/igps2.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 03:48:40 -0400, "Ken Beard" >No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones who >"dropped the ball" >Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN. *snip* Amen Brother. Chris

hmm, you make it sound like 3Dfx has such a margin of compatibility supperieority. GPL is the only one I know of. (Not to say they aren't out there, but in recent game (1999 or newer) you are pretty much guerenteed D3D support. Now If the OpenGL drivers seem to work so well with any game that supports it out of the box, but games that take a patch don't seem to work well. But somehow that is the fault of the companies making the drivers? It sounds like the patches have been of lesser quality than those that fcame right from the box. The TNT2 is the best card on the market and just because poor selling GPL dosn't support it, dosn't even take a % off a compatibility rating, 1 year ago I would agree rthat 3dfx is the way to go, but glide just isn't a requirement for games anymore. D3D is really the soundblaster compatable you refer to. >No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones who >"dropped the ball" >Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN. Extremely simple. It >was true back in the "100% Sound Blaster Compatible" (NOT) soundcard era, >and is true today. I've heard all this complaining about "Company X not >supporting my YZ Whizbang card" stuff for the last 10 years, and it is NOT >Company X's fault - it's the consumer who wants to believe hype about >hardware without paying attention to compatibility. My Soundblaster may not >have done some of the stuff those other cards did, but I NEVER had to wait >for a patch for a game to work with it - much the same with my 3dfx cards >today. >IF for whatever reason a non-3dfx card is best for you and the majority of >your games, then you buy that KNOWING that GPL is one that WON'T support it,

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>and have to just DEAL WITH IT, instead of whining about Papy and them not >being omniscient about what hardware is going to be like in 2 years back >when they started. >Plus, the fact that GPL and many other games with OpenGL patches don't work >that well is that the card makers don't have good drivers for it, they only >are really concerned with Quake, etc. with those OpenGL drivers, if

anything >else works on it than it's a plus. >-- >Ken's Sig 3.0 >"Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan

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>Kenobi >Go #43 and #44! >volksy (at) geocities (dot) com >volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com >>>Path: >>>> Their decisions were sound. >>>Absolutely. >>No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy dropped >the >>ball, where many others did not. >>Z. >>Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

right, but I don't think any games coming out from this point on will not be supporting either D3D or OpenGL. So if you don't have any games now or planning on buying a earlier released title you should do well with a non-Glide card. why anyone would make a game supporting OpenGL is un-clear to me, If it's made specifically for Quake, then D3D is a good option, I'm not sure why Companies waste thier time on OGL. D3D is most likely the best at this point. >I'd buy that view, IF I didn't see TONS of these posts, about GPL, Tribes, >NR99, Longbow 2, F15 and many, many other games that aren't THAT old that >people can't run right without Glide support. These folks scream about >wanting a patch, and then scream when it still doesn't work right. An >OpenGL patch WOULD work on these games if the cards had PROPER OpenGL >drivers, and not ones meant only for Quake / Quake2. D3D and OpenGL ARE the >SoundBlaster Compatible of today, but as back then, sometimes you still need >THE SoundBlaster and not a substitute, and that is 3dfx / Glide. >There are easily 20 games on my shelf that need, or work much better with, a >3dfx card. If that isn't the case for someone, or they already have a >Voodoo2, then the TNT2 is a great deal - but only if they analyze whether it >plays the games they want to play beforehand. It is pretty lame for people >to buy a card, knowing it doesn't support a game they play, and then >***ing to the game company about why it doesn't work - it was the >CONSUMER'S fault, not the company's. If they play a LOT of GPL or NASCAR, >and many here do, then it's their fault if it doesn't run on their card, not

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>Papy's. I, and many others, play many games that are over 6 months old, so >I think the compatibility rating drops much more than 1 % for the TNT2 for >most people. If you only play some shooters, knock yourself out and don't >worry about it. >And really, if they get some driver bugs worked out and speed up their >OpenGL implementation, the Matrox G400 will the best card out. It wipes

the >floor with everything else in D3D from all the benchmarks I've seen. >-- >Ken's Sig 3.0 >"Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan

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>Kenobi >Go #43 and #44! >volksy (at) geocities (dot) com >volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com >>hmm, you make it sound like 3Dfx has such a margin of compatibility >>supperieority. GPL is the only one I know of. (Not to say they aren't out >>there, but in recent game (1999 or newer) you are pretty much guerenteed >D3D >>support. >>Now If the OpenGL drivers seem to work so well with any game that supports >>it out of the box, but games that take a patch don't seem to work well.

But

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>>somehow that is the fault of the companies making the drivers? It sounds >>like the patches have been of lesser quality than those that fcame right >>from the box. >>The TNT2 is the best card on the market and just because poor selling GPL >>dosn't support it, dosn't even take a % off a compatibility rating, 1 year >>ago I would agree rthat 3dfx is the way to go, but glide just isn't a >>requirement for games anymore. D3D is really the soundblaster compatable >you >>refer to. >>>No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones

who

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>>>"dropped the ball" >>>Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN. Extremely simple. >>It >>>was true back in the "100% Sound Blaster Compatible" (NOT) soundcard era, >>>and is true today. I've heard all this complaining about "Company X not >>>supporting my YZ Whizbang card" stuff for the last 10 years, and it is

NOT >>>Company X's fault - it's the consumer who wants to believe hype about >>>hardware without paying attention to compatibility. My Soundblaster may >>not >>>have done some of the stuff those other cards did, but I NEVER had to wait >>>for a patch for a game to work with it - much the same with my 3dfx cards >>>today. >>>IF for whatever reason a non-3dfx card is best for you and the majority of

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>>>your games, then you buy that KNOWING that GPL is one that WON'T support >>it, >>>and have to just DEAL WITH IT, instead of whining about Papy and them not >>>being omniscient about what hardware is going to be like in 2 years back >>>when they started. >>>Plus, the fact that GPL and many other games with OpenGL patches don't >work >>>that well is that the card makers don't have good drivers for it, they >only >>>are really concerned with Quake, etc. with those OpenGL drivers, if >>anything >>>else works on it than it's a plus. >>>-- >>>Ken's Sig 3.0 >>>"Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - >>Obi-Wan >>>Kenobi >>>Go #43 and #44! >>>volksy (at) geocities (dot) com >>>volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com >>>>>Path: >>>>>> Their decisions were sound. >>>>>Absolutely. >>>>No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy >dropped >>>the >>>>ball, where many others did not. >>>>Z. >>>>Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

I'd buy that view, IF I didn't see TONS of these posts, about GPL, Tribes, NR99, Longbow 2, F15 and many, many other games that aren't THAT old that people can't run right without Glide support. These folks scream about wanting a patch, and then scream when it still doesn't work right. An OpenGL patch WOULD work on these games if the cards had PROPER OpenGL drivers, and not ones meant only for Quake / Quake2. D3D and OpenGL ARE the SoundBlaster Compatible of today, but as back then, sometimes you still need THE SoundBlaster and not a substitute, and that is 3dfx / Glide. There are easily 20 games on my shelf that need, or work much better with, a 3dfx card. If that isn't the case for someone, or they already have a Voodoo2, then the TNT2 is a great deal - but only if they analyze whether it plays the games they want to play beforehand. It is pretty lame for people to buy a card, knowing it doesn't support a game they play, and then ***ing to the game company about why it doesn't work - it was the CONSUMER'S fault, not the company's. If they play a LOT of GPL or NASCAR, and many here do, then it's their fault if it doesn't run on their card, not Papy's. I, and many others, play many games that are over 6 months old, so I think the compatibility rating drops much more than 1 % for the TNT2 for most people. If you only play some shooters, knock yourself out and don't worry about it. And really, if they get some driver bugs worked out and speed up their OpenGL implementation, the Matrox G400 will the best card out. It wipes the floor with everything else in D3D from all the benchmarks I've seen. -- Ken's Sig 3.0 "Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan Kenobi Go #43 and #44! volksy (at) geocities (dot) com volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com >hmm, you make it sound like 3Dfx has such a margin of compatibility >supperieority. GPL is the only one I know of. (Not to say they aren't out >there, but in recent game (1999 or newer) you are pretty much guerenteed D3D >support. >Now If the OpenGL drivers seem to work so well with any game that supports >it out of the box, but games that take a patch don't seem to work well. But >somehow that is the fault of the companies making the drivers? It sounds >like the patches have been of lesser quality than those that fcame right >from the box. >The TNT2 is the best card on the market and just because poor selling GPL >dosn't support it, dosn't even take a % off a compatibility rating, 1 year >ago I would agree rthat 3dfx is the way to go, but glide just isn't a >requirement for games anymore. D3D is really the soundblaster compatable you >refer to. >>No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones who >>"dropped the ball" >>Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN. Extremely simple. >It >>was true back in the "100% Sound Blaster Compatible" (NOT) soundcard era, >>and is true today. I've heard all this complaining about "Company X not >>supporting my YZ Whizbang card" stuff for the last 10 years, and it is NOT >>Company X's fault - it's the consumer who wants to believe hype about >>hardware without paying attention to compatibility. My Soundblaster may >not >>have done some of the stuff those other cards did, but I NEVER had to wait >>for a patch for a game to work with it - much the same with my 3dfx cards >>today. >>IF for whatever reason a non-3dfx card is best for you and the majority of >>your games, then you buy that KNOWING that GPL is one that WON'T support >it, >>and have to just DEAL WITH IT, instead of whining about Papy and them not >>being omniscient about what hardware is going to be like in 2 years back >>when they started. >>Plus, the fact that GPL and many other games with OpenGL patches don't work >>that well is that the card makers don't have good drivers for it, they only >>are really concerned with Quake, etc. with those OpenGL drivers, if >anything >>else works on it than it's a plus. >>-- >>Ken's Sig 3.0 >>"Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - >Obi-Wan >>Kenobi >>Go #43 and #44! >>volksy (at) geocities (dot) com >>volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com >>>>Path: >>>>> Their decisions were sound. >>>>Absolutely. >>>No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy dropped >>the >>>ball, where many others did not. >>>Z. >>>Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

I agree with you - there will be very few games in the future that are Glide-only (but there are still some for this year) - and if you don't have a library already it's probably not that big of an issue. But if you do..... And the thing with OpenGL - the only reason it really showed up on PC's from the workstations is that John Carmack, who was behind Quake, didn't like Direct3D (which did suck back then) and had worked on an OpenGL version of Quake to run on his workstations. OpenGL wasn't available on PC's at the time except in some expensive cards, but Carmack worked with 3dfx to get GL Quake to run on the 3dfx cards. Basically, they made a "mini" OpenGL (hence called MiniGL) that translated ONLY the OpenGL commands that Quake used to 3dfx's Glide, and it could now run on PC's. Other games using the Quake engine, and later the Quake2 engine, worked fine with the MiniGL driver. With Quake being a big game, the other graphics chip makers started adding OpenGL support to compete with 3dfx. To be an actual certified OpenGL driver though, you had to support ALL the functions that OpenGL has, not just those that Quake uses. Many companies went that route, and could theoretically run any OpenGL application, some copied 3dfx and had a Quake-specific MiniGL type driver. But even the "full" drivers were usually only really optimized for Quake, at least at first. So while they may support functions outside of what Quake uses, they may not support them well. Of course, any application calling something not in the MiniGL type driver won't run at all on cards that use that style. That is usually why some games have problems with an OpenGL patch. For GPL for example, the OpenGL patches basically took the calls that GPL would make to 3dfx Glide, and translated them into the closest OpenGL equivalent - fairly easy to do I understand since they do things somewhat similarly, and it only required adding a small .DLL file - but to convert to Direct3D seems to require a LOT more work, like redoing the actual game code. The problem was, if the OpenGL call was something outside of what was optimized for Quake engine games, it may cause the game to not work well or to run slowly. I recall the issue with GPL was something in the texture-handling in the TNT OpenGL drivers that was much slower than with Glide, and caused slowdowns when using the mirrors. This kind of thing is what causes OpenGL to not always work as well as it could. With completely working and optimized drivers, the patched OpenGL games should work just fine - but some cards don't have OpenGL drivers that are as complete as their D3D ones, so D3D would be better on those. But OpenGL seems to be easier to work with, and do some things better than D3D, so given good drivers should work as well or better, so there are good reasons to use it. -- Ken's Sig 3.0 "Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan Kenobi Go #43 and #44! volksy (at) geocities (dot) com volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com >right, but I don't think any games coming out from this point on will not be >supporting either D3D or OpenGL. So if you don't have any games now or >planning on buying a earlier released title you should do well with a >non-Glide card. >why anyone would make a game supporting OpenGL is un-clear to me, If it's >made specifically for Quake, then D3D is a good option, I'm not sure why >Companies waste thier time on OGL. D3D is most likely the best at this >point.

really? Runs NROS demo fine on my TNT with no special drivers

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>I will add my experience to this old thread. I had a TNT in my >computer and found it would not run nascar in Multi Player because of >no VESA support. Now I know this has already been hashed over, but >hey, it might save someone from an expensive mistake. IMHO >------------------------- >Steven S. Palmer >http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/4001/ >http://www.primenet.com/~ssp/ >http://members.tripod.com/~stevenscott/ >http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/4001/jerks.html

>hmm, you make it sound like 3Dfx has such a margin of compatibility >supperieority. GPL is the only one I know of. (Not to say they aren't out >there, but in recent game (1999 or newer) you are pretty much guerenteed D3D >support. I tried to live with an AGP Riva128 as my only card, and believe me, not having 3dfx is a problem. I had lots of fun on Quake-engine games, but many games require 3dfx to run at their bestm, so I didn't even bother buying them. Now I've added a Voodoo2 SLI setup, so I can support whatever they throw at me. For the forseeable future, at least. So, my advice is get a TNT AND 1 or 2 Voodoos, that way you support Direct3d, OpenGL, and Glide. Dan

Uh, no. Just because you couldn't install N2's Vesa drivers, didn't mean it wasn't there. Vesa support is in the _hardware_ on cards these days. No software needed. -Larry > I will add my experience to this old thread. I had a TNT in my > computer and found it would not run nascar in Multi Player because of > no VESA support. Now I know this has already been hashed over, but > hey, it might save someone from an expensive mistake. IMHO

Would that really be a bad thing? I sometimes wonder :) -Larry > If the game makers did what you recommend, we would still > be playing DOS games. > LOL!

Jeez, eat a snowball my friend... How about this. I haven't installed a Vesa driver in 2 years, and it works out just fine. I haven't owned a video card in several years that needed seperate software installed to support Vesa. If you are running 10 year old hardware, well, that's another story. Lighten up! It's shit like this that destroys the news groups. Talk to people like you would if you were standing face to face with them, not 3000 miles away :) -Larry > You cal me a liar? YOu are full of shit bud, there are some video > cards that do not have the VESA support needed to run some programs. > Sci-tech made a business out of selling a programs to add some VESA > support for some video cards, but not all. larry, go learn a bit more > about a subject before you try to BS us! Thank you.

This is why I keep my Monster II occupying a PCI slot, and might even get another one for SLI mode if I can find one cheap. The Asus V3800 TNT2 card I have takes care of 95% of my needs, though. -Larry > I tried to live with an AGP Riva128 as my only card, and believe me, not > having 3dfx is a problem.

Ahh, thanks for the information about no VESA support. I told someone that my G200 works in ICR2 and N2, blah blah blah, but it has documented VESA support up to 800x600 without extra software. Makes me like Matrox, for 2D, even more after hearing this. Jason. > the TNT's I > owned ((2 of them) on pentium systems) did not have VESA support for > running NASCAR99. The NASCAR99 game worked but not in Multi player > mode which needed VESA to work. This was true of NASCAR2 also which > needed VESA support. Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

That's not what I did, and you know it. You obviously like to rant off on people in newsgroups. I don't play that game. I'm just here to learn as much as possible, and help as much as possible. Not argue with the likes of you. Enjoy yourself, but leave me out of this nonsense... Plonk me if you wish. I really don't care :) -Larry > Look dude, you cannot spread false and misleading information in a > public forum without someone that knows the truth bringing it to your > attention.

Thank you, Jason. Maybe a particular person will take note of your posting as well :) -Larry > Ahh, thanks for the information about no VESA support. I told someone that > my G200 works in ICR2 and N2, blah blah blah, but it has documented VESA > support up to 800x600 without extra software. Makes me like Matrox, for 2D, > even more after hearing this. > Jason.

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>That's not what I did, and you know it. >You obviously like to rant off on people in newsgroups. I don't play >that game. >I'm just here to learn as much as possible, and help as much as >possible. Not argue with the likes of you. >Enjoy yourself, but leave me out of this nonsense... >Plonk me if you wish. I really don't care :) >-Larry

Dont worry about him Larry. He doesnt even know the difference between a Voodoo card, a Banshee and a Voodoo2.... -- Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo - - V8Supercars - CART -

Ah, otay. Thanks :) -Larry

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> Dont worry about him Larry. He doesnt even know the difference between > a Voodoo card, a Banshee and a Voodoo2.... > -- > Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors > - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo - > - V8Supercars - CART -