LWMFF + CTFJ = GPL Braking nirvanna!

I've just been trying out the new update of CTFJ (version 3.10) that was posted to the http://www.stickworks.com/ This new version works wonderfully with my Logitech Wingman Formula Force USB wheel controller. In a word, Awesome! My problem with GPL has always been the over sensitive brake pedal. Under hard braking, I would experience wheel lock-up at roughly 2/3 pedal travel. This makes hard braking difficult, since I have to hold my leg in mid air with just the right pressure on the pedal so as not to lock up the tires. With CTFJ, I can now adjust the pedal so that the wheels will not lock up until I have the pedal all the way to the stop. This makes an UNBELIEVEABLE difference in feel and control of the car in GPL. GPL seems to reverse the braking axis for some reason, so Bob Church (author of CTFJ) has changed CTFJ to accept negative numbers in the axis sensitivity field. I've been trying it with the R axis set at -80 for a first run. With this setting, the tires will lock up under full braking when cold, but not when hot. With more usable travel, trail braking is much much easier. Just in time for Mosport, where our league is set to race on Tuesday night! I think I'll try a little higher setting, say 85 or so, till I get some lock with hot tires, and then back it off a notch. I highly recommend this utility to ALL players of Grand Prix Legends, and want to shout a big THANK-YOU to Bob Church of stickworks.com for this wonderful ( and free! ) software.

Thank's, I'm downloading it right now. -don

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>I've just been trying out the new update of CTFJ (version 3.10) that was >posted to the >http://www.stickworks.com/ website recently. >This new version works wonderfully with my Logitech Wingman Formula Force >USB wheel controller. >In a word, Awesome!

Could you do me a favor and let me know what settings you use in CTFJ. Anything that helps the LWFF pedals is worth a try. Keith.

On Sat, 05 Jun 1999 15:25:20 GMT, "Brad DuTemple" Hi Brad, Thanks again, Brad, both for the kind words and for helping with test the beta version. Both are much appreciated! It looks like Bill and Andre aren't having quite as much luck, though, so I took a look around the Logitech site today to see if I could pick up any info. I don't have a LWFF, so I can't really check this stuff for you guys, but here's some thoughts that might get things running for you. First, Brad says he's running fine with the 3.20 drivers without using the Profiler, so I don't think there's any inherent incompatibility with the basic 3.20 driver set. The Profiler may be another story, or it may just be related to the basic problem. If I'm reading things rightly, neither Bill nor Andre could get CTFJ to work regardless of whether the Profiler was loaded or not. So, here's some thoughts. The LWFF is one of those that "doesn't need calibration" in the Control Panel. Which doesn't mean it doesn't need calibration, it just means that the driver is doing the calibration for you. Usually that means that the driver makes some arbitrarily narrow estimate of what values the extremes of control travel will produce, places those in the registry, then adjusts them as the device returns values outside of that range. Eventually, it will track out to the max and min that the device actually produces and achieve a correct calibration. That calibration has to be achieved before CTFJ is started for the first time. CTFJ needs those final values to work correctly. The CTFJ doc file mentions getting a good calibration before you start CTFJ the first time, and that's what you need to do. Also, once that calibration is set, you _must_ go into the CTFJ Configuration Editor, center the wheel, and click the Center Axes button. Without that, CTFJ will not work correctly and usually ends up pinning the indicators to one side of the test panel or the other. Here's what I'd do. First, if you've been running the DXTweak utility, run it again and reset the Default values. A lot of Games depend on default ranges being set, I'd be a bit hesitant about changing them in the first place, and CTFJ pretty much overrides them anyway. Next, remove the LWFF from the Control Panel and run the ClrCalib.exe utility that's available on the Logitech Website. That will clean out any backup calibration data and get you back to square one. At that point, restart Window, but don't run CTFJ. Look in the CTFJ install directory, usually \Program Files\StickWorks\CTFJ3 for a file called CTFJ.DAT and delete it. That gets you back to what's essentially a fresh install of CTFJ. Next, install the LWFF in the Control Panel. Run it's test panel routine and move the wheel lock to lock, depress the pedals, etc. What you're trying to do is to get the autocalibration to set itself up, and from the notes on the Logitech website, that looks to be the way to do it. When it's all working well in the Control Panel, go ahead and exit to the Desktop. Now start CTFJ. Pop up the Configuration Editor and make whatever settings you want to make. Make sure to uncheck the 'Center' boxes for the Accelerator and Brake pedals (I'm guessing it's 'Y' and 'R', both of which default to centered). Once that's done, center the Wheel and click the 'Center Axes' button so CTFJ can collect it's data. Try it out at that point. See if you have better luck in the sims. If it works okay, then try starting the Profiler and see what happens with that. If the Profiler doesn't work, you might want to go through the process again, but load the Profiler _before_ you start CTFJ for the first time after deleting the CTFJ.DAT file. If the Profiler is doing something more to the Calibration Data, that would have to be active when CTFJ is started for the first time for it to line up correctly. Let me know how it goes! - Bob The StickWorks http://www.stickworks.com

Bob, Thanks for the post. I'll give it a go, and let you know how it works. Bill

I'll try it too, let you know about the results. Andre

Bob, this is beginning to drive me nuts. I DLed the CTFJ utility only to find that it didn't seem to work. No problem, it would have been nice but no big deal. Then I found that my Logitech FF wheel wasn't working. For some goofy reason I could no longer calibrate my wheel or the brake either in the Logitech profiler or in Win95. The throttle worked fine but not the others. Hmmm, says I, well, I'll just uninstall CTFJ. No help. Hmmmm, says I again, I'll just uninstall Logitech and reinstall it. Still no help. HMMMMMMM, says I yet again, maybe the fine folks on RAS know something about this. I read your response, printed it out and, ran ... did not walk to the Logitech site for the "ClrCalib.exe utility that's available on the Logitech Website" only to find ... that I couldn't find the damn thing. Sounds like I need that to clear the registry so I can proceed with this nonsense, any suggestions on where in that site it is? It really looks like the problem you describe, where the wheel and the brake are cranked all the way over and I can't recalibrate them no matter what I do. Thanks, Joe

Hi Joe, Same problems here, doesn't work for me either. Too bad :( But after ClrCalib everything is ok again. You can download it at www.wingmanteam.com, look in the gadgets page. Andre

Bob, no luck here. First I uninstalled the 3.20 software, and then I did exactly as you told me. I sounded logical and I thought it would work. But the same results: as soon as I run CTFJ, steer goes completely to the right, brake goes completely to the right and throttle goes to the left. Andre

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>I'll try it too, let you know about the results. >Andre >>Bob, >>Thanks for the post. I'll give it a go, and let you know how it works. >>Bill

How about if I answer my own question? The site referred to is NOT the Logitech site but instead www.wingmanteam.com which has other cool stuff including various user profiles. And it fixed the problem too, so all is well :-) Thanks, Joe

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> Bob, this is beginning to drive me nuts. I DLed the CTFJ utility only to find > that it didn't seem to work. No problem, it would have been nice but no big > deal. Then I found that my Logitech FF wheel wasn't working. For some goofy > reason I could no longer calibrate my wheel or the brake either in the Logitech > profiler or in Win95. The throttle worked fine but not the others. Hmmm, says > I, well, I'll just uninstall CTFJ. No help. Hmmmm, says I again, I'll just > uninstall Logitech and reinstall it. Still no help. HMMMMMMM, says I yet again, > maybe the fine folks on RAS know something about this. I read your response, > printed it out and, ran ... did not walk to the Logitech site for the > "ClrCalib.exe > utility that's available on the Logitech Website" only to find ... that I > couldn't find the damn thing. > Sounds like I need that to clear the registry so I can proceed with this > nonsense, any suggestions on where in that site it is? It really looks like the > problem you describe, where the wheel and the brake are cranked all the way > over and I can't recalibrate them no matter what I do. > Thanks, > Joe

Bob, Well, no luck with CTFJ and my system. Sigh. I followed your instructions to the letter (BTW, the use of ClrCalib prevents the need to completely remove the Logi software and reinstall in order to get the Control panel functioning properly again!). No matter what I tried, it seems that the mere presence of CTFJ in memory causes GPL and Viper (haven't tried the others), to fail to recognize the wheel for calibration in the games. If you ever find the answer to this, let me know, would you? In the meantime, life goes on just fine.......... Thanks for all your efforts, Bob. I appreciate them very much. Bill Mast

> This new version works wonderfully with my Logitech Wingman Formula Force > USB wheel controller. > In a word, Awesome! > My problem with GPL has always been the over sensitive brake pedal It makes wonders for my saitek R4 FF too :-) You all know about the "short" brake pedal issue with this otherwise nice wheel... Set axis "R" to -100%, calibrate inside GPL, exit, reset axis "R" to -90% (or thereabout) and enter GPL without recalibrating, viola! :-) /Bj.O.rn, SDK #1225

After a lot of trying I gave up too Bill, but I still wonder why it works fine with Brad's LWMFF... Andre

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>Bob, >Well, no luck with CTFJ and my system. Sigh. >I followed your instructions to the letter (BTW, the use of ClrCalib >prevents the need to completely remove the Logi software and reinstall in >order to get the Control panel functioning properly again!). No matter what >I tried, it seems that the mere presence of CTFJ in memory causes GPL and >Viper (haven't tried the others), to fail to recognize the wheel for >calibration in the games. >If you ever find the answer to this, let me know, would you? >In the meantime, life goes on just fine.......... >Thanks for all your efforts, Bob. I appreciate them very much. >Bill Mast

Andre, Yeah, that's got me scratching my head too. I wonder what's different about his machine..........? Bill

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>After a lot of trying I gave up too Bill, but I still wonder why it >works fine with Brad's LWMFF... >Andre >>Bob, >>Well, no luck with CTFJ and my system. Sigh. >>I followed your instructions to the letter (BTW, the use of ClrCalib >>prevents the need to completely remove the Logi software and reinstall in >>order to get the Control panel functioning properly again!). No matter

what

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>>I tried, it seems that the mere presence of CTFJ in memory causes GPL and >>Viper (haven't tried the others), to fail to recognize the wheel for >>calibration in the games. >>If you ever find the answer to this, let me know, would you? >>In the meantime, life goes on just fine.......... >>Thanks for all your efforts, Bob. I appreciate them very much. >>Bill Mast

Bill, Me three. 8). There's another fellow that reported it worked for him, too, and with the Profiler running. I still think there has to be something going on in the calibration data. Nobody is reporting 'Joystick Not Connected' so the driver is apparently failing the reads, the data just looks bad to whomever is receiving it. I'd like to get a look at what that data is looking like, would you be interested in exporting: with Regedit and sending me the .REG file? If I could get two dumps, one from before CTFJ is run while things are still working, and then again after CTFJ is run when things go awry that would be greate. Be best to delete CTFJ.DAT before the second one so that it starts fresh. If you've got time and want to fool with, maybe it would help sort out what's going wrong. Thanks! - Bob The StickWorks http://www.stickworks.com

Hi Joe, Looks like you found it okay. Sorry I wasn't more explicit about where to get it, I'll have to put a link on my site for it. - Bob The StickWorks http://www.stickworks.com

Bob, I'd be happy to do that. It's late here, so I'll do it in the morning. Bill >Bill, >>Yeah, that's got me scratching my head too. I wonder what's different about

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>>his machine..........? >Me three. 8). There's another fellow that reported it worked for him, >too, and with the Profiler running. I still think there has to be >something going on in the calibration data. Nobody is reporting >'Joystick Not Connected' so the driver is apparently failing the >reads, the data just looks bad to whomever is receiving it. I'd like >to get a look at what that data is looking like, would you be >interested in exporting:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\control\MediaResources\joystick

Try assigning the Logitech wheel to another ID# under the advanced TAB. >Bob, this is beginning to drive me nuts. I DLed the CTFJ utility only to find >that it didn't seem to work. No problem, it would have been nice but no big >deal. Then I found that my Logitech FF wheel wasn't working. For some goofy >reason I could no longer calibrate my wheel or the brake either in the Logitech The wheel is calibrated when you boot your computer. It is on the gadgets page and will clear your registry of the calib values and every joystick device listed (if I read the page properly). -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Hi Andre, I do, too. See my response to Bill. If you'd care to do the registry key export, that data might help sort it out. - Bob The StickWorks http://www.stickworks.com

In the options screen of the LWFF there is an option 'auto calbration on/off'. I experimented with this but also no results. Any idea if this has something to do with the problem, and should it be on or off? Andre

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>Hi Andre, >>After a lot of trying I gave up too Bill, but I still wonder why it >>works fine with Brad's LWMFF... >I do, too. See my response to Bill. If you'd care to do the registry >key export, that data might help sort it out. >- Bob >The StickWorks >http://www.stickworks.com

Andre, I'd say leave it Off, sounds like it would be less likely to interefere and I've always preferred knowing when my stuff was being calibrated anyway. How do you calibrate the stick when it's 'Off', though? - Bob The StickWorks http://www.stickworks.com

I assignes the wheel in advanced to no. 2, but that didn't make any difference. As soon as I run CFTJ, all the meters are to the right, except throttle is to the left, but the pedals and wheel don't work anymore. When I close CFTJ, sometimes the wheel works again, and sometimes I must run ClrCalib to get it working again. Andre

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>>I'd say leave it Off, sounds like it would be less likely to >>interefere and I've always preferred knowing when my stuff was being >>calibrated anyway. How do you calibrate the stick when it's 'Off', >>though? >>- Bob >The Logitech calibrates by turning itself left and right when autocalibration >is enabled. When autocalibration is disabled, we need to turn the wheel >manually all the way to each side. This is needed only after the computer >is turned on/off. The accel and brake pedals need only be calibrated once, >when the logitech software is first installed. >Just to add data to this, it's working on my system (and it's great, thanks Bob, >already set 2 personal bests on a couple of GPL tracks today). I'm running >win98, the Logitech FF wheel is on USB and running the latest Logitech 3.20 >software. I have autocalibration set to "off". >And I've never ran any sort of deadzone utility (possible culprit?) >before on this system. The only other thing I tried was DXtweak, and with >the R value not at default using Dxtweak, then with CTFJ running, GPL didn't >even see my brake pedals. Resetting the R value back to default in DXtweak >fixed that.

Bob, Andre's solution works for me too!! It took a couple of tries, and a few re-boots and recalibrations, but now everything is just beautiful. I've discovered that the Logitech Profiler can be running or not - CTFJ works regardless now. However, I DON'T load any Logitech profiles upon running the game. I can REALLY notice the difference that CTFJ makes with the wheel - pinpoint adjustment ability, and I'm absolutely convinced that the wheel action is much smoother. Thanks for*** in there with us, Bob. And thanks to Brad and Andre, too for their info! Now, if I could just figure out why Logitech refers to my Formula Force in the Registsry as a "RallyForce USB".............. Regards, Bill

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>Andre, >>THE SOLUTION: >>Download DXTweak.exe from www.wingmanteam.com >>run it >>press 'reset defaults' >>exit >>and then CFTJ works perfect! >>At least on my system, but I guess it should work with your systems >>too. >I think you've got it! 8). After checking some data that Bill sent and >Brad posted, it all makes some sense. I wrote it up in a post to Bill >if you're interested in the details. >Great work! Thanks! >- Bob >The StickWorks >[link lost in import]

THE SOLUTION: Download DXTweak.exe from www.wingmanteam.com run it press 'reset defaults' exit and then CFTJ works perfect! At least on my system, but I guess it should work with your systems too. Andre

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>I assignes the wheel in advanced to no. 2, but that didn't make any >difference. As soon as I run CFTJ, all the meters are to the right, >except throttle is to the left, but the pedals and wheel don't work >anymore. When I close CFTJ, sometimes the wheel works again, and >sometimes I must run ClrCalib to get it working again. >Andre >>>I'd say leave it Off, sounds like it would be less likely to >>>interefere and I've always preferred knowing when my stuff was being >>>calibrated anyway. How do you calibrate the stick when it's 'Off', >>>though? >>>- Bob >>The Logitech calibrates by turning itself left and right when autocalibration >>is enabled. When autocalibration is disabled, we need to turn the wheel >>manually all the way to each side. This is needed only after the computer >>is turned on/off. The accel and brake pedals need only be calibrated once, >>when the logitech software is first installed. >>Just to add data to this, it's working on my system (and it's great, thanks Bob, >>already set 2 personal bests on a couple of GPL tracks today). I'm running >>win98, the Logitech FF wheel is on USB and running the latest Logitech 3.20 >>software. I have autocalibration set to "off". >>And I've never ran any sort of deadzone utility (possible culprit?) >>before on this system. The only other thing I tried was DXtweak, and with >>the R value not at default using Dxtweak, then with CTFJ running, GPL didn't >>even see my brake pedals. Resetting the R value back to default in DXtweak >>fixed that.

Hi Bill, Thanks! I got the data just fine, and it did explain what's happening. Andre seems to have the solution already figured out, and it looks like he's right - it should fix it right up. What's happening is that the registry calibration data for the LWFF in your Pre-CTFJ file is all zeroes. The wheel works with that, apparently, so I'm guessing the system is deriving the data from the USB devices themselves when the registry data is zeroed. I'm not sure under what conditions the registry gets zeroed, certainly ClrCalib will do that, but apparently re-adding the LWFF doesn't restore the values. CTFJ can't work with the zeroed data. To make matters worse, it makes minor adjustments to the registry data itself, resulting in the modification of some of the zeroes. Those changes, apparently, are enough to convince the system that there is calibration data present in the registry, so it starts trying to scale with the wierdest set of min/center/max values it's probably ever seen. Things go downhill from there. 8). Looking at the registry calibration values from Brads GPL.CFG file, his are not zeroed, they're all set to 0-328-655 except the X value, which is close to that but has obviously gone through some calibration, probably from the startup calibration routine. Some checking seems to show that the DXTweak utility restores the 0-328-655 values when you hit the 'Defaults' button. That puts real data back into the registry. CTFJ can come up with the min and max values that it needs to work and everything runs fine, which is exactly what Andre found. So, try this: Run ClrCalib Delete CTFJ.DAT Add the Wheel back in the Control Panel and get it running Run DXTweak and reset the Defaults Run CTFJ and hit the 'Center Axes' buttons The wheel has to be installed for DXTweak to restore the calibration data, otherwise it just leaves it zeroed. Give that a try and see if it helps with yours, too. Thanks again for sending the REG files! They were a great help! - Bob The StickWorks http://www.stickworks.com

Andre, I think you've got it! 8). After checking some data that Bill sent and Brad posted, it all makes some sense. I wrote it up in a post to Bill if you're interested in the details. Great work! Thanks! - Bob The StickWorks http://www.stickworks.com

Hi Will, Thanks for the info, and congratulations on the track times! Sounds like you're set. It looks like Andre has found the solution to the CTFJ/LWFF mystery, hopefully it will work for everyone. Interesting about the autocalibration procedure. I was thinking of 'autocal' as happening in the sense that the data adjusts to new max and min values continuously. It sounds like it's doing that in either mode, it's just that autocal moves the wheel for you, or it may be that it's smarter in autocal and only adjusts the values while it's moving the wheel. Strange that they don't seem to put the calibration data back out into the registry when the data is set to zero, though. Anyway, it looks like it's sorted out Thanks again! - Bob The StickWorks http://www.stickworks.com

Bob, It worked for me, too! Thanks for taking the time to help sort this out, Bob. CTFJ is a jewel - I'm able to tweak my wheel to exactly how I want it, and I'm convinced its response is smoother than before. The ability to tweak the Range on the Brake axis is especially helpful! Thanks also to Brad and Andre for helping out as well. Now, if I could just figure out why Logitech refers, in the Registry, to my Formula Force USB wheel as a "RallyForce USB"........<g>. Regards, Bill

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>Hi Bill, >>I'd be happy to do that. It's late here, so I'll do it in the morning. >Thanks! I got the data just fine, and it did explain what's happening. >Andre seems to have the solution already figured out, and it looks >like he's right - it should fix it right up. >What's happening is that the registry calibration data for the LWFF in >your Pre-CTFJ file is all zeroes. The wheel works with that, >apparently, so I'm guessing the system is deriving the data from the >USB devices themselves when the registry data is zeroed. I'm not sure >under what conditions the registry gets zeroed, certainly ClrCalib >will do that, but apparently re-adding the LWFF doesn't restore the >values. >CTFJ can't work with the zeroed data. To make matters worse, it makes >minor adjustments to the registry data itself, resulting in the >modification of some of the zeroes. Those changes, apparently, are >enough to convince the system that there is calibration data present >in the registry, so it starts trying to scale with the wierdest set of >min/center/max values it's probably ever seen. Things go downhill from >there. 8). >Looking at the registry calibration values from Brads GPL.CFG file, >his are not zeroed, they're all set to 0-328-655 except the X value, >which is close to that but has obviously gone through some >calibration, probably from the startup calibration routine. >Some checking seems to show that the DXTweak utility restores the >0-328-655 values when you hit the 'Defaults' button. That puts real >data back into the registry. CTFJ can come up with the min and max >values that it needs to work and everything runs fine, which is >exactly what Andre found. >So, try this: > Run ClrCalib > Delete CTFJ.DAT > Add the Wheel back in the Control Panel and get it running > Run DXTweak and reset the Defaults > Run CTFJ and hit the 'Center Axes' buttons >The wheel has to be installed for DXTweak to restore the calibration >data, otherwise it just leaves it zeroed. >Give that a try and see if it helps with yours, too. >Thanks again for sending the REG files! They were a great help! >- Bob >The StickWorks >http://www.stickworks.com

Ok, now that CFTJ works, what settings do you guys use? I was 2:30 am last night when I found the DXTweak solution, so I didn't have time to experiment with the settings. And now I'm at work ;) Can't wait to try it out tonight. I read in a post that someone only changed the range of the y-axis to -80 / -85 for better braking. Anyone has tried some other settings? Andre

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>Hi Will, >>The Logitech calibrates by turning itself left and right when autocalibration >>is enabled. When autocalibration is disabled, we need to turn the wheel >>manually all the way to each side. This is needed only after the computer >>is turned on/off. The accel and brake pedals need only be calibrated once, >>when the logitech software is first installed. >>Just to add data to this, it's working on my system (and it's great, thanks Bob, >>already set 2 personal bests on a couple of GPL tracks today). I'm running >>win98, the Logitech FF wheel is on USB and running the latest Logitech 3.20 >>software. I have autocalibration set to "off". >>And I've never ran any sort of deadzone utility (possible culprit?) >>before on this system. The only other thing I tried was DXtweak, and with >>the R value not at default using Dxtweak, then with CTFJ running, GPL didn't >>even see my brake pedals. Resetting the R value back to default in DXtweak >>fixed that. >Thanks for the info, and congratulations on the track times! Sounds >like you're set. It looks like Andre has found the solution to the >CTFJ/LWFF mystery, hopefully it will work for everyone. >Interesting about the autocalibration procedure. I was thinking of >'autocal' as happening in the sense that the data adjusts to new max >and min values continuously. It sounds like it's doing that in either >mode, it's just that autocal moves the wheel for you, or it may be >that it's smarter in autocal and only adjusts the values while it's >moving the wheel. Strange that they don't seem to put the calibration >data back out into the registry when the data is set to zero, though. >Anyway, it looks like it's sorted out Thanks again! >- Bob >The StickWorks >http://www.stickworks.com

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>Ok, now that CFTJ works, what settings do you guys use? I was 2:30 am >last night when I found the DXTweak solution, so I didn't have time to >experiment with the settings. And now I'm at work ;) >Can't wait to try it out tonight. >I read in a post that someone only changed the range of the y-axis to >-80 / -85 for better braking. Anyone has tried some other settings? >Andre

Same here, needed DXTweak to make CFTJ to work. I use -88 for the R axis. All others are set to 100%, and only the x axis is centered. Keith.

Why exactly are people trying to run your centering utility with the logitech FF wheel? It isn't necessary. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >Hi Bill, >>I'd be happy to do that. It's late here, so I'll do it in the morning. >Thanks! I got the data just fine, and it did explain what's happening. >Andre seems to have the solution already figured out, and it looks >like he's right - it should fix it right up. >What's happening is that the registry calibration data for the LWFF in >your Pre-CTFJ file is all zeroes. The wheel works with that, >apparently, so I'm guessing the system is deriving the data from the >USB devices themselves when the registry data is zeroed. I'm not sure >under what conditions the registry gets zeroed, certainly ClrCalib >will do that, but apparently re-adding the LWFF doesn't restore the >values. >CTFJ can't work with the zeroed data. To make matters worse, it makes >minor adjustments to the registry data itself, resulting in the >modification of some of the zeroes. Those changes, apparently, are >enough to convince the system that there is calibration data present >in the registry, so it starts trying to scale with the wierdest set of >min/center/max values it's probably ever seen. Things go downhill from >there. 8). >Looking at the registry calibration values from Brads GPL.CFG file, >his are not zeroed, they're all set to 0-328-655 except the X value, >which is close to that but has obviously gone through some >calibration, probably from the startup calibration routine. >Some checking seems to show that the DXTweak utility restores the >0-328-655 values when you hit the 'Defaults' button. That puts real >data back into the registry. CTFJ can come up with the min and max >values that it needs to work and everything runs fine, which is >exactly what Andre found. >So, try this: > Run ClrCalib > Delete CTFJ.DAT > Add the Wheel back in the Control Panel and get it running > Run DXTweak and reset the Defaults > Run CTFJ and hit the 'Center Axes' buttons >The wheel has to be installed for DXTweak to restore the calibration >data, otherwise it just leaves it zeroed. >Give that a try and see if it helps with yours, too. >Thanks again for sending the REG files! They were a great help! >- Bob >The StickWorks >http://www.stickworks.com

Great! It seems to have straightened things out for everyone, then. I'll have to add a note to the DOC file about the setup, probably just running DXTweak and resetting defaults before CTFJ is installed is all it takes. Just gets a little messy after the fact because the CTFJ.DAT file gets a little out of whack. My pleasure, Bill! I'm glad we could get it working. Thanks again for sending alone the .REG files. Have fun! - Bob The StickWorks http://www.stickworks.com

Greg, We're not running it for just the centering capability. If it's disabled in the system tray, it still provides improved scaling routines over the built-in Win 9x ones. If enabled, it further allows more precise settings of deadzone, sensitivity (Bob refers to this as Range), and gain (or linearity). These settings can, like the Profiler, be saved for each game. Now, granted, linearity adjustment is already provided for in GPL, but some games either don't provide for it, or don't do such a hot job of it. Also, the Logitech Profiler does offer the ability to tweak deadzone and sensitivity, but CTFJ provides for more discrete adjustments of these values. This is particularly helpful, for instance, in adjusting the Range (sensitivity) of the Brake axis so that maximum braking is reached only when the pedal is fully depressed, and not before. Bottom line: it allows more in the way of personal preferences. Don't get me wrong, though - I think the Logitech Profiler is pretty darn good. I just wish it had more "adjustability". Regards, Bill

On Tue, 8 Jun 1999 07:08:12 -0500, "Greg Cisko" >Why exactly are people trying to run your centering >utility with the logitech FF wheel? It isn't necessary. I guess they found it worked better for them with CTFJ than it did without it. - Bob The StickWorks http://www.stickworks.com

Ok, now that all is clear, one final question: What does nirvanna mean?? Andre

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>>Andre's solution works for me too!!.... >Great! It seems to have straightened things out for everyone, then. >I'll have to add a note to the DOC file about the setup, probably just >running DXTweak and resetting defaults before CTFJ is installed is all >it takes. Just gets a little messy after the fact because the CTFJ.DAT >file gets a little out of whack. >>I can REALLY notice the difference that CTFJ makes with the wheel - pinpoint >>adjustment ability, and I'm absolutely convinced that the wheel action is >>much smoother. >>Thanks for*** in there with us, Bob. And thanks to Brad and Andre, >>too for their info! >My pleasure, Bill! I'm glad we could get it working. >Thanks again for sending alone the .REG files. Have fun! >- Bob >The StickWorks >[link lost in import]

I suppose that can work OK if you only run on the flat tracks (Silverstone, Mexico and Monza). But you'll certainly greatly extend your braking distances on any hilly circuit. Randy

Uhhh... why is that? Anyone have any experiences with this? Even on a hilly circuit like Nurnburg my brakes lock at 75% pedal without CTFJ. I compared my laps with some record laps of monza using gpldump, and my braking was far, far better usgin CTFJ. Gonna try Nurnburg right away.... Andre

The farther you depress the brake pedal, the more braking torque we apply. At some point, the increasing braking torque overwhelms the amount of longitudinal force that a particular tire is capable of generating under the current circumstances, and so the tire locks up. The amount of longitudinal and lateral force that a tire can generate is directly proportional to the amount of force that is pushing it against the pavement. When you compress into a hill (for example, at the end of the front straight at Kyalami), the car is accelerated upwards, which pushes the tire into the pavement, and so it becomes capable of generating more force than when the car was travelling straight and level. When you crest a rise (for example, at the end of the back straight at Mosport), centrifugal acceleration pulls the car away from the hill, which pulls the tire away from the pavement, and so it can generate less force. Let's say you've used CTFJ to adjust your brake axis so that you just lock up the wheels when you have the brake pedal almost fully depressed while travelling straight and level. When you compress into the hill at the end of the front straight at Kyalami (which happens to be a heavy braking zone), you'll only be able to generate as much braking torque as you've dialed in with CTFJ. But, since you're compressing into the hill, this is much _less_ torque than you _could_ apply, without locking up the brakes. So, you'll have to brake earlier than someone that hasn't messed around with CTFJ. Randy

Aha. So now we need a new version of CTFJ, with which we can adjust the braking range per section in GPL. It's getting complicated now... I think I'm gonna buy me some CH pedals then... Andre On Tue, 08 Jun 1999 21:29:27 GMT, "Randy Cassidy"

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>> >I suppose that can work OK if you only run on the flat tracks >> >(Silverstone, Mexico and Monza). But you'll certainly greatly >extend >> >your braking distances on any hilly circuit. >> Uhhh... why is that? >The farther you depress the brake pedal, the more braking torque we >apply. At some point, the increasing >braking torque overwhelms the amount of longitudinal force that a >particular tire is capable of generating under the current >circumstances, and so the tire locks up. >The amount of longitudinal and lateral force that a tire can generate >is directly proportional to the amount of force that is pushing it >against the pavement. When you compress into a hill (for example, at >the end of the front straight at Kyalami), the car is accelerated >upwards, which pushes the tire into the pavement, and so it becomes >capable of generating more force than when the car was travelling >straight and level. When you crest a rise (for example, at the end of >the back straight at Mosport), centrifugal acceleration pulls the car >away from the hill, which pulls the tire away from the pavement, and so >it can generate less force. >Let's say you've used CTFJ to adjust your brake axis so that you just >lock up the wheels when you have the brake pedal almost fully depressed >while travelling straight and level. When you compress into the hill >at the end of the front straight at Kyalami (which happens to be a >heavy braking zone), you'll only be able to generate as much braking >torque as you've dialed in with CTFJ. But, since you're compressing >into the hill, this is much _less_ torque than you _could_ apply, >without locking up the brakes. So, you'll have to brake earlier than >someone that hasn't messed around with CTFJ. >Randy

Andre, Since CTFJ provides for saved setups, we could also make separate track-related files. Of course, the problem would still exist on how to to come up with a compromise setup for Kyalami that would serve all braking corners........ Bill

And that's why we need the 'change to setting for every type of elevetion in GPL' option in CTFJ... Still a little bit of work left to do Bob :) Andre

And I can only say: Dito! Andre

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>>The farther you depress the brake pedal, the more braking torque we >>apply. At some point, the increasing >>braking torque overwhelms the amount of longitudinal force that a >>particular tire is capable of generating under the current >>circumstances, and so the tire locks up. >Thanks for the explanation, and for bursting our bubbles : ). But... >it's not a complete rupture, as maybe I do lose a little time in the extreme >cases cited by braking early, however I gain it all back in other corners. >Part of that is that I'm more consistent in every corner, and can brake >later than I used to. As I have gotten better laps not only in Monza and >Silverstone, but also in a Mosport, a pretty hilly track.

Or, you could just tick the Braking Help check box. :-) Randy

>Obviously CTFJ is doing what it was designed to do, but in my >opinion, it is like adding an illegal option to a sim. >They didn't have anti-lock brakes back in 1967 in the F1 cars, so why >are a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon and using this utility to >control the brake lock-up. ? I was laughing pretty good when I read this, as I was about to post the same thing re: antilock braking in 1967 :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

No, what we need is CTFJ to detect the corner we are approaching and adjusting the values by itself. ;-) Or, maybe CTFJ could detect speed and the corner we are approaching in GPL and apply the brakes as necessary. ;-) Joachim I'm just a little bored while downloading :-)

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> >And that's why we need the 'change to setting for every type of > >elevetion in GPL' option in CTFJ... > >Still a little bit of work left to do Bob :) > Sounds like something like having "hot keys" where we can adjust > the R value even when the game is running. And it sounds like > we're pretty generous with Bob's time : ).

Obviously CTFJ is doing what it was designed to do, but in my opinion, it is like adding an illegal option to a sim. They didn't have anti-lock brakes back in 1967 in the F1 cars, so why are a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon and using this utility to control the brake lock-up. ? I thought GPL was about trying to simulate a driving experience from 1967, so i for one won't be using an add-on that gives me anti-locking brakes, just to be able to achieve a faster time at a given track. This is a simulation guys, if you want to add a device that gives anti-locking brakes, change sims.!! Half the fun in GPL, is coming to terms with braking and accelerating, so why ruin it for the simple sake of better lap times through an add-on that is totally out of context for the time period. I am not complaining about the use of CTFJ as a centering device etc, but to use it for limiting driver input for better braking, is totally pathetic IMO.. Cheers from a standard brake user.. Ron

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> > No, what we need is CTFJ to detect the corner > > we are approaching and adjusting the values > > by itself. ;-) > Or, you could just tick the Braking Help check box. :-) > Randy

What do joystick users do that is illegal in terms of making their braking times better. ? Nothing. !! I think that anyone driving with a joystick is handicapping themselves as far as braking efficiency goes, if they are using the joystick for braking. The type of controller that we all use is a personal preference and i don't mind or care if you are using a joystick or a wheel etc.. What i don't agree with is the use of add-on programs that enable us to by-pass what the sim is trying to give us. As always, and as i stated earlier, that is my opinion... You do have one good point though, if you are not running in a league or doing hot lap competitions, then by all means, play the sim as you want to.. I just can't see the point of having a sim with the physics of GPL, only to downgrade it with the use of, what is basically, anti-lock brakes... It makes a mockery of the skill level of GPL drivers.. Cheers, Ron

You are still taking this whole thread out of context Will. I am not talking about what type of input device we use to control GPL with, i am talking about a software program, that is altering the way the physics engine in GPL was designed to respond to our inputs. GPL is all about car control, how we modulate the brake and throttle to achieve a skillfull balance of braking threshold and throttle response to any given situation. If the brakes can not lock, where is the skill in that ? If that is your idea of fun, then so be it, but my idea of fun and immersion is to try and keep what is in my power to keep as close to 1967 as i can possibly make it and that doesn't include a way to stop me locking up my brakes. Obviously our input devices cannot be compared to a 1967 GP car and we all like different controllers, but i am not talking about controllers, i am talking about changing the feel of the physics engine in GPL when it comes to braking on the limit and keeping control of that limit in an unrealistic way. A tennis/squash ball under the brake pedal, still allows lock-ups, it also gives a more realistic feel to the brake pedal. Limiting the brake potientometer so it doesn't give full braking response on maximum throw of the brake pedal, is like adding anti-lock brakes to a 1967 car, which IMO is totally out of context with developing the necessary skill to control these cars. As far as having a controller that is out of context with the time period in question, we are sitting at a computer screen, trying to simulate as best as we can, given the limited feedback and suspension of belief, a time period of 1967, where anti-lock brakes were not available. This time period was all about driver skill, so if i can keep that skill level as close to reality as i can, given the fact i am sitting in front of a computer screen etc.. then i will. By the way, i am not putting down the program in question, as it is a very usefull program, i just don't agree with the use it is being put to in regards to GPL and braking techniques. Like i said, where is the driver skill development in that. ? As always, this is my opinion only. :) Hope that helps you understand what i meant... Cheers, Ron > >What do joystick users do that is illegal in terms of making their > >braking times better. ? > >Nothing. !! I think that anyone driving with a joystick is > >handicapping themselves as far as braking efficiency goes, if they are > >using the joystick for braking. > Not talking about braking at all, you mentioned it as being "out of context > with the time period". None of the devices I talked about are in context of > the time period either, including driving with a joystick. > If anything that helps one move the lockup point of their brake pedals > closer to the end stop should be illegal, so should anything that helps > one move the steering wheel back and forth quicker than humanly possible.

> >Obviously CTFJ is doing what it was designed to do, but in my > >opinion, it is like adding an illegal option to a sim. > >They didn't have anti-lock brakes back in 1967 in the F1 cars, so why > >are a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon and using this utility to > >control the brake lock-up. ? > I was laughing pretty good when I read this, as I was about to > post the same thing re: antilock braking in 1967 :-) I think not talking about a antilock braking, we are talking concretally about the Logitech Wingman Formula, that is a very good wheel, but with a very very travel in the brake. With the help of CTFJ, adjusting to 80-90 the brake it gives you more travel and can dose better the brake, of course if you press the brake at the max you still lock brakes. I don't measure it, but think that in a LWFF until lock brake you have a travel of 1 cm. With CTFJ gain some mm in this travel, but until lock brake because still the brakes locks. Said this, I think I'm not going to use this because I have the feeling in the brake and if modificates I have to get this feeling again. Regards Javier Fernandez Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

CTFJ is not used for antilocking. The braking pedal of the LWFF is quite bad. Way to short travel, and if the pedal is pushed at 2/3rd, the wheels allready lock, giving is ridiculous short braking travel. With CTFJ we can make the wheels lock when we have the braking pedal pushed to the max, giving us much more braking pedal travel. And yes, making it easier for us. But it is exactly the same as using a better set of pedals with more range, like CH pedals or the microsoft pedals. You can setup CTFJ so that yo wheels will not lock. But if someone does this, he has a big disadvantage, since he won't be braking for 100%. On top of that, the braking travel needed differs from track to track, and from section to section. I setup CTFJ with the braking range set to -90. This gives me 10% more braking travel, while the wheels still lock up under all circumstances. It just gives me more braking pedal travel. I bet if Clark would have had logitech pedals in his car without CTFJ, he would have died on his first race. What I do consider a little bit cheating though is using a joystick in combination with pedals. This gives best of both worlds, most record laps are achieved with this combo, but using a joystick if really way out of context. Andre On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:14:12 -0500, "Greg Cisko"

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>>Obviously CTFJ is doing what it was designed to do, but in my >>opinion, it is like adding an illegal option to a sim. >>They didn't have anti-lock brakes back in 1967 in the F1 cars, so why >>are a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon and using this utility to >>control the brake lock-up. ? >I was laughing pretty good when I read this, as I was about to >post the same thing re: antilock braking in 1967 :-) >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Hi Ron, Well, I seem to have started a bit of controversy out here. 8). I'm not really active in this community, what you guys decide WRT to using CTFJ is up to, but I thought I might be able to give a bit better technical perspective on the thing. CTFJ can't really supply 'anti-lock' brakes in the true sense. I know I used the term in the DOC file, an unfortunate choice of words I suppose, but anti-lock brakes need to sense that the tire is at the limit of adhesion and modulate the braking force automatically to hold it at that limit, regardless of how hard you press on the pedal. CTFJ doesn't, and indeed couldn't possibly, do that. It would need some way to know where the limit of adhesion was and when the tire was approaching that limit. There's just no way for it to know that without tapping into the sim (which it does not do). CTFJ is more akin to reducing the diameter of the master cylinder (by about 8% for the the 85%-90% settings most are reporting). You'll have to move the pedal further to get to wheel lock, but once you get there, CTFJ won't do a thing to prevent it from happening. It is true, I suppose, that you could adjust CTFJ so that the wheels will never lock, but it would be more like putting a block of wood under the pedal so you couldn't push it all the way. If you did do that, you'd be running with less than full braking ability even under the quickest braking conditions and fade, etc., would make the situation worse by further reducing your braking ability. It seems to me, as Andre mentions downthread a bit, that's not going to give optimum performance either. You hit the nail on the head, really. 100% braking for 100% of travel under all conditions is going to be the optimum. Either side of that and you'll lose some control, either through reduced maximum braking ability or through reduced pedal travel to wheel lock. CTFJ will let you achieve that optimum, but it can't really do any more than that. - Bob The StickWorks http://www.stickworks.com

Hi Bob, No problems at all with your program Bob, i think it does a great job and should help a lot of us sim racers who are having problems with controller inputs.. Thanks for the effort and time you have put into this program and for providing it as freeware to the end user. I was just commenting on how i personally would not use it for a primitive sort of anti-lock braking sytem in GPL.. Controversy?? never, good fun... :) Keep up the good work Bob, it is appreciated.. Cheers, Ron

>CTFJ is not used for antilocking. The braking pedal of the LWFF is >quite bad. Way to short travel, and if the pedal is pushed at 2/3rd, It is quite bad in your opinion. IMHO there is nothing wrong with the pedals. But then again maybe I am able to compensate better? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Ron, Anti-lock braking systems are active and automatic systems that modulates braking several times per second automatically to prevent wheel lock under heavey/panic braking situations. CTFJ does not offer Anti-lock braking in any way shape or form. What it does is allow me to do is adjust the braking axis so that I have more usable travel. I am still able to lock up the wheels in GPL with my CTFJ adjusted braking axis, and for me, it makes it a MUCH more enjoyable sim now that the brake pedal (feels) right. I wonder what the purists would say about people who race/qualify with 28lbs of air in their tires. Sure, it's fast if you can keep it on the road, but was it a common practice in 1967? Brad.

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> Obviously CTFJ is doing what it was designed to do, but in my > opinion, it is like adding an illegal option to a sim. > They didn't have anti-lock brakes back in 1967 in the F1 cars, so why > are a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon and using this utility to > control the brake lock-up. ? > I thought GPL was about trying to simulate a driving experience from > 1967, so i for one won't be using an add-on that gives me anti-locking > brakes, just to be able to achieve a faster time at a given track. > This is a simulation guys, if you want to add a device that gives > anti-locking brakes, change sims.!! > Half the fun in GPL, is coming to terms with braking and accelerating, > so why ruin it for the simple sake of better lap times through an > add-on that is totally out of context for the time period. > I am not complaining about the use of CTFJ as a centering device etc, > but to use it for limiting driver input for better braking, is totally > pathetic IMO.. > Cheers from a standard brake user.. > Ron > > > No, what we need is CTFJ to detect the corner > > > we are approaching and adjusting the values > > > by itself. ;-) > > Or, you could just tick the Braking Help check box. :-) > > Randy

Ron, I think you may be looking at this issue from a different viewpoint. CTFJ does not work like any "active" braking aid such as ABS braking. What CTFJ does is allow you to modify the length of your braking axis on the controller. Think of this as modifying the length or throw of the brake pedal cable on your 1967 F1 car. Seems fairly realistic to me, I'm sure the drivers probably had input on the adjustment of how easily the brakes would lock by having the mechanics adjust the cables or brake assemblies, no one would want to drive a car with the brakes set to lock when the pedal was just halfway down. Speaking as someone who doesn't use CTFJ but had to do the reverse of this manually when calibrating my T2 pedals for GP2/ICR2/Nascar2 and a lot of older sims where my gas pedal would not always give 100% throttle when held down all the way. By calibrating the pedals just under a 100% I could be sure that the sim would see full throttle when I put the pedal to full. I wish there had been something like CTFJ back then. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

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>Obviously CTFJ is doing what it was designed to do, but in my >opinion, it is like adding an illegal option to a sim. >They didn't have anti-lock brakes back in 1967 in the F1 cars, so why >are a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon and using this utility to >control the brake lock-up. ? >I thought GPL was about trying to simulate a driving experience from >1967, so i for one won't be using an add-on that gives me anti-locking >brakes, just to be able to achieve a faster time at a given track. >This is a simulation guys, if you want to add a device that gives >anti-locking brakes, change sims.!! >Half the fun in GPL, is coming to terms with braking and accelerating, >so why ruin it for the simple sake of better lap times through an >add-on that is totally out of context for the time period. >I am not complaining about the use of CTFJ as a centering device etc, >but to use it for limiting driver input for better braking, is totally >pathetic IMO.. >Cheers from a standard brake user.. >Ron

Where do I download this thing? I want to see how it works with my 1967 joystick <G> Mark

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> Hi Bob, > No problems at all with your program Bob, i think it does a great job > and should help a lot of us sim racers who are having problems with > controller inputs.. > Thanks for the effort and time you have put into this program and for > providing it as freeware to the end user. > I was just commenting on how i personally would not use it for a > primitive sort of anti-lock braking sytem in GPL.. > Controversy?? never, good fun... :) > Keep up the good work Bob, it is appreciated.. > Cheers, > Ron > > Hi Ron, > > Well, I seem to have started a bit of controversy out here. 8). I'm > > not really active in this community, what you guys decide WRT to > using > > CTFJ is up to, but I thought I might be able to give a bit better > > technical perspective on the thing.

I use the Microsoft Sidewinder Joystick, and I would never say that braking is my problem, the exact opposite. I use the thottle lever on the side of the device as the brake and the push stick forward for throttle (stick side to side for steering). With my finger down the slot in front of the slider I have wonderful brake control (and can accelerate simultaneously to trail brake). My problem is that on a race of any length my arm gets extremely tired from steering and little muscle twitches throw off the accuracy of steering. The digital nature of the joystick makes calibration wonderful (ie it never drifts and I don't need to recalibrate, and it is rock steady when at rest) I did try a cheap wheel and pedals and I can hardly drive the car Alan http://www.chandler.u-net.com

[snip] I disagree - see my reply to post a few messages back in this thread. With the joystick I use, thottle and brake is much better than I could ever get with pedals. Its the steering (particularly accuracy and how tired it makes your one arm) that is the problem. Also I know its not 1967 realistic - I did by a cheapish (Thrustmaster Spring) wheel but then with the PC on my desk the seat is a lot higher than in a racing car (ie my feet would need to work the pedals from a much higher angle) and with a wheel screwed to the desk in front of my keyboard and monitor with my arms at a comfortable straightness I sit so far back I can hardly see the screen even with my glasses on <vbg>. Compared to even driving my own car it was horrible. Alan http://www.chandler.u-net.com

Goodhaye Brad, Firstly let me say i know exactly what anti-lock brakes are, i am a mechanic and i spend at least 1 hour a day checking and servicing anti-lock braking systems, as part of our regular vehicle service program. :) I simply used the term, "anti-lock braking" as a way of saying what i wanted to say about a program that takes the skill level out of braking in regards to GPL... I know what CTFJ does and what it is used for and when it is used for it's intended purpose, it is a great addition to any game. What i was saying, and what most of you have took out of context is the ability to use CTFJ to take the skill out of braking in GPL, by adjusting the braking pot so as it cannot operate at it's maximum reading. This, when it is used in this fashion, effectively acts as a crude form of anti-lock brakes and to me, takes all the required skill out of learning good braking procedures. By the way, an adjustment to limit the brake pedal travel in the 1967 GP cars was not incorporated in that era of racing at all, it simply boiled down to driver skill. Regards people using 28 lbs pressure in their tyres, all i can say to that is, if they are good enough and skillfull enough to keep the car on the road and under full control with 28 lbs pressure in the tyres, then i don't have a problem with that at all. Yes, it was a normal procedure back in 1967 (not just in 67 either, it is still used today) to up the tyre pressure a bit when qualifying so as to have less rolling resistance and ultimately a better terminal speed. The better drivers have used that method for getting that little extra over the opposition ever since inflatable tyres were incorporated onto racing cars. That is in no way cheating in GPL, other than making it more difficult to control and hence, more skillfull input by the driver is needed. LowRider setups, now that is a different story and one i am glad to see has been partly alleviated by the upcoming patch. I am just sorry it wasn't taken further, 2.5" is still too low.. IMO. :) Cheers, Ron