Wheel design issues

After a chat with a friend about the usual quality of PC steering wheel combos, I got to thinking: who the heck designs these things? Now that most of the cheapo plastic overthick annoyances of steering wheels are gone, we have to suffer from inadequate pedal systems. What kind of designer/engineer can come up with a pedal unit which weighs about 200g, slides all over the floor, has a rounded backpanel with the cord sticking out so you cannot balance it against a wall even if you wanted to, squeaks to annoy you and has the movement linearity of an old eight-bit digital control. I for one am suggesting that all TM wheel designers have TM pedals installed into their cars! Maybe they'd rethink some of these horrible contraptions we have to put up with. I know there are hand-made designer wheel&pedal-units, but those are inaccessible to normal customers and are no reason why mid-priced ($100-$150) wheel units couldn't have proper pedals. It's so easy to rethink all these crappy designs that I'm considering applying to TM myself (well, almost). And now to store that soapbox back in the garage...

I think you're right on, Toni. I'm on my third wheel since I got into this stuff, and they all share what I think is a fundamental design flaw ... Leverage is working exactly AGAINST you when you apply force to the throttle or brake. That is, the base of pedals wants to tilt up, making it less stable. If some designer would just turn the base around, so that the fulcrum of the pedals is on the side closer to the driver, applying force would tend to push the base "down" and forward, increasing its friction against the floor, and making it more stable. I guess maybe the current way "looks" right, because the driver's heels are resting on the base. But it just doesn't work in practice. Manufacturers: Please send your checks directly to me. Regards, Kurt Steinbock

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>After a chat with a friend about the usual quality of PC steering >wheel combos, I got to thinking: who the heck designs these things? >Now that most of the cheapo plastic overthick annoyances of steering >wheels are gone, we have to suffer from inadequate pedal systems. What >kind of designer/engineer can come up with a pedal unit which weighs >about 200g, slides all over the floor, has a rounded backpanel with >the cord sticking out so you cannot balance it against a wall even if >you wanted to, squeaks to annoy you and has the movement linearity of >an old eight-bit digital control. >I for one am suggesting that all TM wheel designers have TM pedals >installed into their cars! Maybe they'd rethink some of these horrible >contraptions we have to put up with. I know there are hand-made >designer wheel&pedal-units, but those are inaccessible to normal >customers and are no reason why mid-priced ($100-$150) wheel units >couldn't have proper pedals. It's so easy to rethink all these crappy >designs that I'm considering applying to TM myself (well, almost). >And now to store that soapbox back in the garage...

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> After a chat with a friend about the usual quality of PC steering > wheel combos, I got to thinking: who the heck designs these things? > Now that most of the cheapo plastic overthick annoyances of steering > wheels are gone, we have to suffer from inadequate pedal systems. What > kind of designer/engineer can come up with a pedal unit which weighs > about 200g, slides all over the floor, has a rounded backpanel with > the cord sticking out so you cannot balance it against a wall even if > you wanted to, squeaks to annoy you and has the movement linearity of > an old eight-bit digital control. > I for one am suggesting that all TM wheel designers have TM pedals > installed into their cars! Maybe they'd rethink some of these horrible > contraptions we have to put up with. I know there are hand-made > designer wheel&pedal-units, but those are inaccessible to normal > customers and are no reason why mid-priced ($100-$150) wheel units > couldn't have proper pedals. It's so easy to rethink all these crappy > designs that I'm considering applying to TM myself (well, almost). > And now to store that soapbox back in the garage...

Get a TSW2 - slightly over your price range at $220, but it's built like a tank! Take a look at http://www.thomas-superwheel.com

Just for interest take a look at these units. At http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/System/9045/Features html

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>After a chat with a friend about the usual quality of PC steering >wheel combos, I got to thinking: who the heck designs these things? >Now that most of the cheapo plastic overthick annoyances of steering >wheels are gone, we have to suffer from inadequate pedal systems. What >kind of designer/engineer can come up with a pedal unit which weighs >about 200g, slides all over the floor, has a rounded backpanel with >the cord sticking out so you cannot balance it against a wall even if >you wanted to, squeaks to annoy you and has the movement linearity of >an old eight-bit digital control. >I for one am suggesting that all TM wheel designers have TM pedals >installed into their cars! Maybe they'd rethink some of these horrible >contraptions we have to put up with. I know there are hand-made >designer wheel&pedal-units, but those are inaccessible to normal >customers and are no reason why mid-priced ($100-$150) wheel units >couldn't have proper pedals. It's so easy to rethink all these crappy >designs that I'm considering applying to TM myself (well, almost). >And now to store that soapbox back in the garage...

-- Redline Race Controls Nigel of Lakewood Motorsports Nascar Coruba & Coke Chevy Hamilton New Zealand

Oops! Sorry try this address http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/System/9045/

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>After a chat with a friend about the usual quality of PC steering >wheel combos, I got to thinking: who the heck designs these things? >Now that most of the cheapo plastic overthick annoyances of steering >wheels are gone, we have to suffer from inadequate pedal systems. What >kind of designer/engineer can come up with a pedal unit which weighs >about 200g, slides all over the floor, has a rounded backpanel with >the cord sticking out so you cannot balance it against a wall even if >you wanted to, squeaks to annoy you and has the movement linearity of >an old eight-bit digital control. >I for one am suggesting that all TM wheel designers have TM pedals >installed into their cars! Maybe they'd rethink some of these horrible >contraptions we have to put up with. I know there are hand-made >designer wheel&pedal-units, but those are inaccessible to normal >customers and are no reason why mid-priced ($100-$150) wheel units >couldn't have proper pedals. It's so easy to rethink all these crappy >designs that I'm considering applying to TM myself (well, almost). >And now to store that soapbox back in the garage...

-- Redline Race Controls Nigel of Lakewood Motorsports Nascar Coruba & Coke Chevy Hamilton New Zealand

bit expensive but look like they are built to with stand a nuclear war! i think the clutch pedal is an excelent idea and am considering adding one to my tm f1 pedals (how? any ideas?) i must say though that the pedals on mmy TM f1 (nascar pro) are very robust, they are heavy and dont slide around the only problem i find is the cable out of the back and i may rerute this through the side of the unit as its getting mangled! i brace my pedals by jamming them under my computer desk (works well and would take a heavy throttle to move!) jay (feedback on the clutch would be helpful)

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> Oops! Sorry try this address > http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/System/9045/ > >After a chat with a friend about the usual quality of PC steering > >wheel combos, I got to thinking: who the heck designs these things? > >Now that most of the cheapo plastic overthick annoyances of steering > >wheels are gone, we have to suffer from inadequate pedal systems. What > >kind of designer/engineer can come up with a pedal unit which weighs > >about 200g, slides all over the floor, has a rounded backpanel with > >the cord sticking out so you cannot balance it against a wall even if > >you wanted to, squeaks to annoy you and has the movement linearity of > >an old eight-bit digital control. > >I for one am suggesting that all TM wheel designers have TM pedals > >installed into their cars! Maybe they'd rethink some of these horrible > >contraptions we have to put up with. I know there are hand-made > >designer wheel&pedal-units, but those are inaccessible to normal > >customers and are no reason why mid-priced ($100-$150) wheel units > >couldn't have proper pedals. It's so easy to rethink all these crappy > >designs that I'm considering applying to TM myself (well, almost). > >And now to store that soapbox back in the garage... > -- > Redline Race Controls > Nigel of Lakewood Motorsports > Nascar Coruba & Coke Chevy > Hamilton > New Zealand

For those of you using Thrustmaster pedals... if you have an anti-static rug protector under your desk, Some velcro tape works great to hold the pedals in place. Just remove the 4 corner *** stops on the pedals and put the tape on the pedals directly. Works great and the pedals go nowhere. Its also easy to just "detach" the pedals for maintenance. Scott PA-Scott -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott on TEN G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com High Gear "The View" Editor - http://www.simracingnews.com http://home.earthlink.net/~sbhusted ICQ# 4395450

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>Now that most of the cheapo plastic overthick annoyances of steering >wheels are gone, we have to suffer from inadequate pedal systems. What >kind of designer/engineer can come up with a pedal unit which weighs >about 200g, slides all over the floor, has a rounded backpanel with >the cord sticking out so you cannot balance it against a wall even if >you wanted to, squeaks to annoy you and has the movement linearity of >an old eight-bit digital control.

[snip] As much beating as the Logitech pedals get, they solved this problem. Having the pedals pivot down keeps it from moving at all. The obvious problem is that you have to limit travel... They can only go so far down into the base, and too much travel might make for a sore ankle on the brake side for those who drive with both feet (since you have to hold your foot up more on the brake side). When you're sitting in a computer chair, your legs are much more vertical from the knees down that when seated in a car (all the cars I like, anyhow). That always made me wonder why they used the "pivot back" layout. My old T2 pedals used to really bother my legs. If I had the clearance, I would have mounted them on something about 7" off the floor to duplicate the layout of my car. Tim

I have quite a bit of experience with the TSW and the TSW2 wheel and pedal sets, and they do a great job of solving the pedal design problem. As you point out, though, this comes at a price that many people find unreasonable (or unaffordable). There are two wheels on the market that I would recommend as being nearly as good as the TSW pedals (and definitely quite a bit BETTER than anything I've tried from Thrustmaster): The Mad Catz Andretti Racing Wheel and the ACT Labs RS wheel. Both of these companies have designed pedals that stay put and work very well, and I would highly recommend either wheel and pedal combo over the Thrustmaster products that I've tried. Check out our hardware reviews at: http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/hardware/ You can find the Mad Catz Andretti Racing Wheel review at: http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/sims/mcaw/ We're still reviewing the ACT Labs wheel, but so far it gets the "thumbs up" from us. Enjoy! -- John Bodin Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

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>After a chat with a friend about the usual quality of PC steering >wheel combos, I got to thinking: who the heck designs these things? >Now that most of the cheapo plastic overthick annoyances of steering >wheels are gone, we have to suffer from inadequate pedal systems. What >kind of designer/engineer can come up with a pedal unit which weighs >about 200g, slides all over the floor, has a rounded backpanel with >the cord sticking out so you cannot balance it against a wall even if >you wanted to, squeaks to annoy you and has the movement linearity of >an old eight-bit digital control. >I for one am suggesting that all TM wheel designers have TM pedals >installed into their cars! Maybe they'd rethink some of these horrible >contraptions we have to put up with. I know there are hand-made >designer wheel&pedal-units, but those are inaccessible to normal >customers and are no reason why mid-priced ($100-$150) wheel units >couldn't have proper pedals. It's so easy to rethink all these crappy >designs that I'm considering applying to TM myself (well, almost). >And now to store that soapbox back in the garage...

I would recommend the ECCI wheel as having BETTER pedals then the TSW. Thanks.

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> I have quite a bit of experience with the TSW and the TSW2 wheel and > pedal sets, and they do a great job of solving the pedal design > problem. As you point out, though, this comes at a price that many > people find unreasonable (or unaffordable). > There are two wheels on the market that I would recommend as being > nearly as good as the TSW pedals (and definitely quite a bit BETTER > than anything I've tried from Thrustmaster): The Mad Catz Andretti > Racing Wheel and the ACT Labs RS wheel. Both of these companies have > designed pedals that stay put and work very well, and I would highly > recommend either wheel and pedal combo over the Thrustmaster products > that I've tried. > Check out our hardware reviews at: > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/hardware/ > You can find the Mad Catz Andretti Racing Wheel review at: > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/sims/mcaw/ > We're still reviewing the ACT Labs wheel, but so far it gets the > "thumbs up" from us. > Enjoy! > -- John Bodin > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/ > >After a chat with a friend about the usual quality of PC steering > >wheel combos, I got to thinking: who the heck designs these things? > >Now that most of the cheapo plastic overthick annoyances of steering > >wheels are gone, we have to suffer from inadequate pedal systems. What > >kind of designer/engineer can come up with a pedal unit which weighs > >about 200g, slides all over the floor, has a rounded backpanel with > >the cord sticking out so you cannot balance it against a wall even if > >you wanted to, squeaks to annoy you and has the movement linearity of > >an old eight-bit digital control. > >I for one am suggesting that all TM wheel designers have TM pedals > >installed into their cars! Maybe they'd rethink some of these horrible > >contraptions we have to put up with. I know there are hand-made > >designer wheel&pedal-units, but those are inaccessible to normal > >customers and are no reason why mid-priced ($100-$150) wheel units > >couldn't have proper pedals. It's so easy to rethink all these crappy > >designs that I'm considering applying to TM myself (well, almost). > >And now to store that soapbox back in the garage...

After talking with Dave Thomas Jr. today (Thomas Enterprises), I'm considering upgrading my TSW2 pedals with the new wiring, spec pots, split axis, and clutch, all wired directly to a 15-pin game connector. That's right no wheel. As much as I love(d) my TSW2 wheel - with GPL and FF I'll have to do without. I've been waffling as to whether or not to go full time with my new FF pedals, but I can't leave my TSW2 pedals ;) BTW - all the work above breaks out like this if any other TSW2 owners are interested: $35 upgraded wiring for split axis $65 SPEC Pots (3) $60 Clutch Kit $35 Installation Labor Heh - I wonder if after doing this for me he'll consider selling the pedals separately... David L. Cook

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> > After a chat with a friend about the usual quality of PC steering > > wheel combos, I got to thinking: who the heck designs these things? > > Now that most of the cheapo plastic overthick annoyances of steering > > wheels are gone, we have to suffer from inadequate pedal systems. What > > kind of designer/engineer can come up with a pedal unit which weighs > > about 200g, slides all over the floor, has a rounded backpanel with > > the cord sticking out so you cannot balance it against a wall even if > > you wanted to, squeaks to annoy you and has the movement linearity of > > an old eight-bit digital control. > > I for one am suggesting that all TM wheel designers have TM pedals > > installed into their cars! Maybe they'd rethink some of these horrible > > contraptions we have to put up with. I know there are hand-made > > designer wheel&pedal-units, but those are inaccessible to normal > > customers and are no reason why mid-priced ($100-$150) wheel units > > couldn't have proper pedals. It's so easy to rethink all these crappy > > designs that I'm considering applying to TM myself (well, almost). > > And now to store that soapbox back in the garage... > Get a TSW2 - slightly over your price range at $220, but it's built like > a tank! > Take a look at http://www.thomas-superwheel.com

John, However the Andretti cannot use seperate Axis can it ?? Scott PA-Scott -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott on TEN G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com High Gear "The View" Editor - http://www.simracingnews.com http://home.earthlink.net/~sbhusted ICQ# 4395450

On Tue, 01 Jun 1999 21:21:21 -0400, "Scott B. Husted" >John, >However the Andretti cannot use seperate Axis can it ?? That is correct, Scott. If I discover how to re-wire them, I'll post the info, but for the time being, they do not feature dual-axis support for the pedals. They still work very nicely for GPL, though, and I think as-is they would prove to be very adequate in GPL for all but the most advanced drivers (they certainly work well enough for me). -- JB

Exactly what I do with my NASCAR Pro, as my only big issue with the pedals was the tipping. They go nowhere even during very heated driving sessions. -- Ken's Sig 3.0 "Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan Kenobi Go #43 and #44! volksy (at) geocities (dot) com volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com >For those of you using Thrustmaster pedals... if you have an anti-static rug >protector under your desk, Some velcro tape works great to hold the pedals in >place. Just remove the 4 corner *** stops on the pedals and put the tape on >the pedals directly. Works great and the pedals go nowhere. >Its also easy to just "detach" the pedals for maintenance. >Scott >PA-Scott >-- >Scott B. Husted >PA-Scott on TEN >G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com >High Gear "The View" Editor - http://www.simracingnews.com >http://home.earthlink.net/~sbhusted >ICQ# 4395450

I solved the problem with my TM Nascar Pro by putting them above stereo speakers and by taping them into it. and I also have suitcase+table behing the speaker to prevent speaker to move.. Also by raising pedals higher this way, you have better angle to press the pedals. here's how they are: [] [] | | /----------------\ <-TM Nascar Pro taped to speaker. ------------------------ | speaker | |______________| (I hope the picture looks okay...)

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>Now that most of the cheapo plastic overthick annoyances of steering >wheels are gone, we have to suffer from inadequate pedal systems. What >kind of designer/engineer can come up with a pedal unit which weighs >about 200g, slides all over the floor, has a rounded backpanel with >the cord sticking out so you cannot balance it against a wall even if >you wanted to, squeaks to annoy you and has the movement linearity of >an old eight-bit digital control.

Great point Toni, I actually cut out a piece of chipboard with some blocks on which hold the F1 pedal unit in place, the chipboard then fits under my desk and with its edge up against the skirting board to prevent any moving about. I also don't use the springs in my pedals any more after the original set broke. Whilst waiting for my replacement springs I rigged up the pedals to use simple bungy cord which attaches to small hooks on the chipboard (I have several hooks at different distances to give greater or lesser resistance). I found this so much better that even though my springs arrived very quickly I have never gone back to using them in place of the good ol' bungy. It may seem like a lot of trouble to go to but the pedals don't budge an inch whilst in use now and the cords are easily replaced if required. Peter Hooper

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>After talking with Dave Thomas Jr. today (Thomas Enterprises), I'm >considering upgrading my TSW2 pedals with the new wiring, spec pots, split >axis, and clutch, all wired directly to a 15-pin game connector. That's >right no wheel. As much as I love(d) my TSW2 wheel - with GPL and FF I'll >have to do without. I've been waffling as to whether or not to go full time >with my new FF pedals, but I can't leave my TSW2 pedals ;) BTW - all the >work above breaks out like this if any other TSW2 owners are interested: >$35 upgraded wiring for split axis >$65 SPEC Pots (3) >$60 Clutch Kit >$35 Installation Labor >Heh - I wonder if after doing this for me he'll consider selling the pedals >separately... >David L. Cook

$195 just for the PEDALS?!? Holy.... Must be NICE to have that kind of money. I'm still trying to talk myself into spending $220+ for BOTH... :) __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.