FFB

Ok, this is "the right" way to set FFB. Centering Spring should be at 100. Overall, Spring and Damper should be at the same number. My settings are 139/139/139/100, "Allow game..." unchecked, in-game 40.0/100. I am not very strong person, so I presume that normal male people should have it at 140%. I still have some "play" in FFB, but I presume that adjusting "cockpitLookDeadZone" in app.ini file of iRacing will correct this. Mario

On 20/08/2011 13:04, Mario Petrinovic wrote: > Ok, this is "the right" way to set FFB. The free Atlas telemetry tool can show when FFB forces have reached their max. Also a guy has written a tool which shows FFB forces live if you run in windowed mode or have an additional screen or smartphone/tablet you can run it on. Check the forums for iRacing FFB clipping monitor This allows each car to be set with individual FFB forces to avoid clipping (where you reduce fidelity by hitting max force too regularly so that forces cannot be distinguished) I think this stuff is rather personal though it depends upon how much you rely on FFB to distinguish how the car is behaving. Your settings will be hitting max forces much of the time but if it works for you...

Tony R:

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>Mario Petrinovic: >> Ok, this is "the right" way to set FFB. > > The free Atlas telemetry tool can show when FFB forces have reached their > max. Also a guy has written a tool which shows FFB forces live if you run > in windowed mode or have an additional screen or smartphone/tablet you can > run it on. > > Check the forums for iRacing FFB clipping monitor > > This allows each car to be set with individual FFB forces to avoid > clipping (where you reduce fidelity by hitting max force too regularly so > that forces cannot be distinguished) > > I think this stuff is rather personal though it depends upon how much you > rely on FFB to distinguish how the car is behaving. Your settings will be > hitting max forces much of the time but if it works for you...

First, I don't have access to forum. Second, clipping doesn't change a thing. You don't need a tool to feel clipping, clipping occures at the max force, if you don't feel the maximum force, what in the whole world do you feel. Third, no, it simply cannot be personal (but soon I'll be on the fly, and then you will see, because I am at the very end of my research). If you can adjust this to your personal liking, then you are missing something. All forces, Damper, Spring and Centering Spring have to be ballanced, only this way you can get the right feel of FFB, and ONLY "the right" feel can help you "the right" way. Too bad everybody is performing this alchemy, insted of a real thing. But, it is long time since I became tired of explaining to people, if they believe so much in their alchemy, so let them enjoy it. I am pretty sure that I'll be ready for the next rookie season, then you will see. Already, with only few laps done with "the right" setting, I am extremly pleased, driving fixed Corvette (and I do have enormnous experience in trying all different settings). I just need to adjust this little "play" that I have, I hope this will be done this week. But the ballance of forces is done rightly (it could be, though, that you can adjust this play with Centering Spring, but I was at work, so didn't try it yet). Mario

I'll try anything once, but please clarify relating the what is in the Logitech Profiler Options/Global Device Settings for my G25 setup. Force Feedback Device Settings Overall Effects Strength - 139%? Spring Effect Sttrength - 139%? Damper Effect Strength - 139%? Enable Centering Spring in Force Feeback Games - Checked Centering Spring Strength - 100%? Steering Wheel Settings Report Combined Pedals - Unchecked Degrees of Rotation - 383 deg. (I have a full size wheel out of my race car) Game Settings Allow Game to Adjust Settings - unchecked Am I reading your settings correctly? Thanks GR

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>On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:04:46 +0200, "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Ok, this is "the right" way to set FFB. > > Centering Spring should be at 100. > Overall, Spring and Damper should be at the same number. > > My settings are 139/139/139/100, "Allow game..." unchecked, in-game >40.0/100. I am not very strong person, so I presume that normal male people >should have it at 140%. > I still have some "play" in FFB, but I presume that adjusting >"cockpitLookDeadZone" in app.ini file of iRacing will correct this. > > Mario

GaryR:

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> I'll try anything once, but please clarify relating the what is in the > Logitech Profiler Options/Global Device Settings for my G25 setup. > > Force Feedback Device Settings > Overall Effects Strength - 139%? > > Spring Effect Sttrength - 139%? > > Damper Effect Strength - 139%? > > Enable Centering Spring in Force Feeback Games - Checked > Centering Spring Strength - 100%? > > Steering Wheel Settings > Report Combined Pedals - Unchecked > > Degrees of Rotation - 383 deg. (I have a full size wheel out of my > race car) > > Game Settings > Allow Game to Adjust Settings - unchecked > > Am I reading your settings correctly?

No, Centering Spring in FF games should be unchecked (IT WORKS unchecked also, but differently than when checked, your FFB guru didn't tell you that, I bet). Second thing, first you have to calibrate wheel properly. When you center your wheel make sure that in center position it is at the number which is at exactly half between the lowest and the highest. Then, when you are asked to turn it left, turn it left so that the number matches the number you have in your driver (383), no matter if your wheel is actually left or not. Of course, this isn't so good with analog wheel, so I would make sure, when I am buying a wheel, that it is digital. Also, somehwere I've read advice to calibrate pedals every time you start to race. This is GOOD advice. While it is alright to calibrate (digital) wheel only once, with (analog) pedals it is different situation, so for every cold start of computer I calibrate my pedals. This isn't hard to do, anyway. But I have another advice. BEFORE you calibrate pedals, first "work" pedals a little. I press each pedal 10 times BEFORE calibration, and 5 times during calibration. Don't press for more than 5 times during calibration, because from time to time it happens that pedal potentiometer responds with a peak, so this can screw your calibration process, which is especially bad for braking pedal. Another thing is that the perspective has to be natural. You got to find your natural FOV, and THE MOST important is to set the hight of screen EXACTLY right. This means that you adjust it by the mean of "DrivingVanishY" variable in app.ini file, and this has to be precise to 4 decimal numbers (the adjustment in the game isn't precise enough). Next thing, the Centering Spring Strength isn't 100%. I just started to research this. For now, it looks like something like 20% responds well for me. The change of Centering Spring Strength reacts just like it should (this means that other numbers are correctly set), and it really affects only the Centering Spring, while the ballance of other forces remain untouched. When I finish testing Centering Spring, I'll see how this blends with "cockpitLookDeadZone" variable in app.ini file. For now I have it at the default (which is 0.050000). And the last thing, whatever you are testing, always test thoroughly. Giving it one try will not do the job. Maybe you are used to some other things, so this new thing will be confusing. But, of course, nobody has patience, and it is completly alright with me whichever way suits you, you don't have to try it at all, if you ask me. I always test thorougly, and this is why this is taking so long. I spend up to 3 hours to test 15 different positions. Do at least 3 (*proper*) laps with every position. Take care that first you do at least something like 7-8 laps, just to adjust to car and track. Mario

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>>Mario Petrinovic: >> Ok, this is "the right" way to set FFB. >> >> Centering Spring should be at 100. >> Overall, Spring and Damper should be at the same number. >> >> My settings are 139/139/139/100, "Allow game..." unchecked, >> in-game >>40.0/100. I am not very strong person, so I presume that normal male >>people should have it at 140%. >> I still have some "play" in FFB, but I presume that adjusting >>"cockpitLookDeadZone" in app.ini file of iRacing will correct this.

Mario Petrinovic:

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> Another thing is that the perspective has to be natural. You got to > find your natural FOV, and THE MOST important is to set the hight of > screen > EXACTLY right. This means that you adjust it by the mean of > "DrivingVanishY" > variable in app.ini file, and this has to be precise to 4 decimal numbers > (the adjustment in the game isn't precise enough).

Oh yes, screen HAS to be vertical. Mario

On Aug 21, 6:44 am, "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote: >         First, I don't have access to forum. Right. The cut you off because of this exact nonsense. >         Second, clipping doesn't change a thing. You don't need a tool to > feel clipping, clipping occures at the max force, if you don't feel the > maximum force, what in the whole world do you feel. You seem to think clipping is some sort of spike in the force. It's not. Clipping is when the wheel motors are being driven to their max force for any extended period of time. With these settings you recommend, the wheel will be clipping continually. You might as well have a spring loaded wheel, because you certainly won't be feeling any FFB detail. At the slightest cornering loads you will feel a constant force from the wheel equal to the max force output of the wheel. I'll be interested to hear from anyone else who tries what Mario recommends. I messed around with it for a bit just to see what would happen. It went about as well as I expected. Mario, has anyone else ever confirmed your results? Has even one other person ever responded positively to your posts on FFB? The FOV stuff is hilarious, BTW :) Pat

Pat Dotson: Mario Petrinovic: > First, I don't have access to forum. Right. The cut you off because of this exact nonsense. ----------------------------------------------------- Well, I wrote about the same thing when N2003 came out, in Papyrus forum. Papyrus responded in a way that they disabled damping. This was the last update of Papyrus, Papyrus was no more. I wrote in iRacing forum as well, iRacing responded by disabling damper. That lasted for one day. ----------------------------------------------------- > Second, clipping doesn't change a thing. You don't need a tool to > feel clipping, clipping occures at the max force, if you don't feel the > maximum force, what in the whole world do you feel. You seem to think clipping is some sort of spike in the force. It's not. Clipping is when the wheel motors are being driven to their max force for any extended period of time. With these settings you recommend, the wheel will be clipping continually. You might as well have a spring loaded wheel, because you certainly won't be feeling any FFB detail. At the slightest cornering loads you will feel a constant force from the wheel equal to the max force output of the wheel. I'll be interested to hear from anyone else who tries what Mario recommends. I messed around with it for a bit just to see what would happen. It went about as well as I expected. Mario, has anyone else ever confirmed your results? Has even one other person ever responded positively to your posts on FFB? -------------------------------------------------------- Yes, some people use FFB the way I am using. BTW, I saw this FFB clipping tool. I will never use that tool (I never use unproved programs on my computer), but it shows exactly what I feel using FFB your way. Too eratic FFB, which cannot be used past 20% (or 8, per new graduation), and probably nobody uses it past 8%, or 3 per new graduation. This behaves completly uncontrolable, just like a car suspension without shock absorber. FFB is designed to be used with damper and spring. Damper stops FFB to go into clipping, and controls the behaviour of FFB. I am using in-game 40.0/100. I keep getting responses like yours, but I never understood them. I will not be able to finish my research this month, but next month I'll be racing. For now, it could be that Centering Spring should be the same as other forces, and "cockpitLookDeadZone" could be as high as 0.120000, I'll see. ------------------------------------------------------- The FOV stuff is hilarious, BTW :) ---------------------------------------------------- Hm, you didn't adjust your perspective? Well, this explains a lot. Why you didn't adjust it? Mario

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> Pat Dotson: > Mario Petrinovic: >> Second, clipping doesn't change a thing. You don't need a tool to >> feel clipping, clipping occures at the max force, if you don't feel the >> maximum force, what in the whole world do you feel. > > You seem to think clipping is some sort of spike in the force. It's > not. Clipping is when the wheel motors are being driven to their max > force for any extended period of time. > > With these settings you recommend, the wheel will be clipping > continually. You might as well have a spring loaded wheel, because > you certainly won't be feeling any FFB detail. At the slightest > cornering loads you will feel a constant force from the wheel equal to > the max force output of the wheel.

------------------------------------------------------------------ Well, I gave a little thought about that clipping. Yes, you are absolutely right, I do think that "clipping is some sort of spike in the force", and there is a reason why I think it, and there is a reason why you think I have constant clipping. Watch here: With my settings clipping occures ONLY during bumps on road, no sign of any clipping during normal conditions. This is why I see clipping in iRacing as some sort of spike, because I feel it only in those spiky situations. OTOH, you, with your damperless forces, which behave so erratically, those forces uncontrollably (uncontrolled by damper) jump all over the place, so, if you rise the slider just a bit too high, it is already in the red zone. OTOH, probably you don't feel the bump clipping, simply because your FFB setting is too low for that, and because of spiky nature of bump clipping, when those forces became uncontrolled, they are already gone, a spike is gone. So, two of us have completly different view of clipping. I feel it only on bumps. You feel it everywhere, but probably not on bumps. Lol, some kind of FFB settings you have. Mario

I tried your 139/139/139/100 settings with various in-game FFB strengths. The wheel (G25) was clipping constantly with anything but an in-game setting of around 1 or 2. If it's damping that you want, you can add that with the new slider that iRacing added. That still doesn't change what clipping is, and how you have to set all the parameters to avoid it. There can be no doubt, especially with your earliest recommendation of using in-game strength of 40, that your settings will clip FFB effects continually in corners. BTW, by setting your overall strength to 139%, what you are doing is amplifying the smallest FFB signals. The result is less of the 'dead zone' that people used to complain about with the G25's. Actually at 139%, you've gone far past accounting for the dead zone, and have introduced instability into the feedback whenever the force direction is reversed. Also, my FOV is set to match my screen size and distance to my eyes so that I get a perspective close to reality. If you look back through iRacing forums and even here on RAS, you'll see that I was an early proponent of this.

Pat Dotson:

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>I tried your 139/139/139/100 settings with various in-game FFB > strengths. The wheel (G25) was clipping constantly with anything but > an in-game setting of around 1 or 2. > > If it's damping that you want, you can add that with the new slider > that iRacing added. That still doesn't change what clipping is, and > how you have to set all the parameters to avoid it. There can be no > doubt, especially with your earliest recommendation of using in-game > strength of 40, that your settings will clip FFB effects continually > in corners. > > BTW, by setting your overall strength to 139%, what you are doing is > amplifying the smallest FFB signals. The result is less of the 'dead > zone' that people used to complain about with the G25's. Actually at > 139%, you've gone far past accounting for the dead zone, and have > introduced instability into the feedback whenever the force direction > is reversed. > > Also, my FOV is set to match my screen size and distance to my eyes so > that I get a perspective close to reality. If you look back through > iRacing forums and even here on RAS, you'll see that I was an early > proponent of this.

Well, thanks for trying it out. What can I say, there is something wrong here. I definitely KNOW what clipping is, and definitely feel it, there is no doubt about it. This clipping definitely doesn't affect my FFB, neither in corners, or anywhere else. I also very well know what you say about so called "dead zone", and yes rising up things eliminates this. You have to rise up past that "dead zone" and to match the strength of your arms. People are so misunderstanding things. I mean, look at settings 139/139/139/139. Well, if I am a manufacturer of FFB wheels, this is how I would design things. And not to say that the default is 100/100/100/100, and the right is 100/0/0/100. Please. Also, I am using ALL of the in-game, you are using what, some minicular part of FFB. Man, this just doesn't have a sense, it is so obvious. So obvious. This all wouldn't mean much, if I really don't feel exactly how would I expect to feel, both, driving my settings, and driving your settings. Your settings for me are just out of this world. It really is so untrue, so erratic, that you really need to use low FFB to manage this. I mean, even if iRacing recommended 20%, nobody used that much, simply because they couldn't handle it. I am handling my way, whichever setting you want. I can drive with 150/150/150/150, and in-game all the way up, the only problem is, just like you would EXPECT, it is too strong for my arms. The key is to adjust the hight of screen, and cockpitLookDeadZone, where the hight of screen is by far the most important thing, and you have to adjust it to 4 decimal places. Mario

>         What can I say, there is something wrong here. I definitely KNOW > what clipping is, and definitely feel it, there is no doubt about it. What is it that you feel that you are calling clipping? Please describe it? Clipping is actually a lack of feel. If the wheel is clipping, there will be extended periods of time where the wheel is doing nothing but applying a constant force in one directly. You will feel nothing but this constant force. So, if there is some other "spikyness" that you are feeling, that is not clipping.

Almost hate to jump in here but have been enjoying this thread so much have to contribute. Some of what Mario has been saying might be lost in translation. What I got from it was that he doesn't care if the larger forces like hitting curbs or bumps are clipped. I believe he wants the more subtle forces, like those coming from cornering, to come through stronger so he increases the wheel settings so these come through better, at the expense of the larger forces being clipped. As for the comments about the damper settings I believe he is saying that without damping the forces coming through are noisy because without some damping the forces don't settle at the intended value. In a control system the goal is for the system to reach a new set point quickly and settle to that value. In a system with little damping the system will tend to overshoot the set point and then undershoot, and keep oscillating about the the set point for a few cycles. Without any damping it may never settle to the set point and keep under-overshooting the set point (this may possibly be the "spikyness"). In a dynamic system, where the set point is always changing, no damping can produce very erratic behavior. I believe this is why Mario is saying that having no damping is not correct. On the other hand an overdamped system takes longer to reach the set point, so for a dynamic system the intended levels may never be reached and this can completely obscure smaller/brief changes in set point. As to whether his settings are correct or not I cannot say as don't have that wheel. And again, this is how I interpreted his posts. YMMV. I am still trying to translate what he is saying about FOV and cockpitLookDeadZone affecting FFB. The only possible connection I could think of was that he is trying to get the feeling of immersion correct, such that the visuals are correct along with the forces coming through the wheel so that everything "feels" right. But that is just a guess on my part. If there is a correlation between the actual forces output by the wheel and FOV and cockpitLookDeadZone settings I'd be glad to have an explanation of how they are linked and why the settings require such precision.

Ken MacKay:

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> Almost hate to jump in here but have been enjoying this thread so much > have to contribute. > > Some of what Mario has been saying might be lost in translation. What > I got from it was that he doesn't care if the larger forces like > hitting curbs or bumps are clipped. I believe he wants the more subtle > forces, like those coming from cornering, to come through stronger so > he increases the wheel settings so these come through better, at the > expense of the larger forces being clipped. > > As for the comments about the damper settings I believe he is saying > that without damping the forces coming through are noisy because > without some damping the forces don't settle at the intended value. > In a control system the goal is for the system to reach a new set > point quickly and settle to that value. In a system with little > damping the system will tend to overshoot the set point and then > undershoot, and keep oscillating about the the set point for a few > cycles. Without any damping it may never settle to the set point and > keep under-overshooting the set point (this may possibly be the > "spikyness"). In a dynamic system, where the set point is always > changing, no damping can produce very erratic behavior. I believe > this is why Mario is saying that having no damping is not correct. On > the other hand an overdamped system takes longer to reach the set > point, so for a dynamic system the intended levels may never be > reached and this can completely obscure smaller/brief changes in set > point.

Oh, thanks Ken. You obviously understand very well those things, and plus you have experience with it. I also have some experience at my work. I was writing exactly what you wrote, in iRacing forum, and boy, the reception I got, BOTH from common laymen, and from iRacing. I mean, at least iRacing SHOULD know something about it. I mean, maybe iRacing understands this, they never said that they excluded me because of what I wrote, but because of complaining of other people. This way or that way, this simply isn't fair. I mean, you wrote everything, and this cannot be written better. Who is able to understand it, he will understand. The problem are some missconceptions that are preveiling in simracing community. The missconceptions aren't that bad, if they weren't backed up by Papyrus/iRacing themselves. The most popular missconception is that damper forces are canned. Of course they are canned, but without them FFB forces DON'T work as intended. Simple as that. Both, Papyrus and iRacing INTENTIONALLY dissabled damper. There is NO sense in this. Even if people who are using damper are wrong (of course, they aren't), I mean, they have the right to use it, if they want it. And then come some "purists" who want "pure" forces. Lol, I mean...

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> As to whether his settings are correct or not I cannot say as don't > have that wheel. And again, this is how I interpreted his posts. > YMMV. > > I am still trying to translate what he is saying about FOV and > cockpitLookDeadZone affecting FFB. The only possible connection I > could think of was that he is trying to get the feeling of immersion > correct, such that the visuals are correct along with the forces > coming through the wheel so that everything "feels" right. But that > is just a guess on my part. If there is a correlation between the > actual forces output by the wheel and FOV and cockpitLookDeadZone > settings I'd be glad to have an explanation of how they are linked and > why the settings require such precision.

The incorrect FOV beahves like this: Too low FOV, picture is vertically compressed, and horizontally stretched. Too high FOV, is the other way around. The arch you are seeing on your screen doesn't corespondence to the forces you feel through wheel. If too low FOV, you have too sharp corners, and other way around. But FOV isn't such a problem. CockiptLookDeadZone is some kind of lag menagement. I am still testing it, but it looks like this should be something like 0.100000. iRacing puts this to 0.050000. Of course that lag affects FFB very much. But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB. Mario

Pat Dotson: > What can I say, there is something wrong here. I definitely KNOW > what clipping is, and definitely feel it, there is no doubt about it. What is it that you feel that you are calling clipping? Please describe it? Clipping is actually a lack of feel. If the wheel is clipping, there will be extended periods of time where the wheel is doing nothing but applying a constant force in one directly. You will feel nothing but this constant force. So, if there is some other "spikyness" that you are feeling, that is not clipping. --------------------------------------------------------- I believe that this is more complicated than this. Ken will understand. First people misunderstand what FORCE FEEDBACK is. Force feedback isn't a force that is applied from wheel onto your hands. People understand word "force" very well, the problem is that they don't understand word "feedback" at all. The "force" is FEED by the work of your arms. If you resist wheel, force will grow larger. I only wanted to make this clearer. Clipping isn't just a constant force. First, clipping is the uttermost force, it is the strongest force you will feel, you cannot miss it at all, you don't need delicate tools to feel it, it will be so strong, that you will feel it in your bones. Then, look above what I wrote regarding "feedback". You resist wheel force, and wheel force grow stronger. But then it stops to grow, and your arms win. This is clipping in force feedback. I feel it exactly like somebody is hammering with a hammer inside wheel. I feel it only on bamps (sometimes in other, NON-DRIVING situations). Which is logical, bamps are by far the strongest things you will feel on your wheel. So, I hit a bamp, I feel like somebody has hit wheel with a hammer. Mario

Mario Petrinovic: > But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this > affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it > badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects > FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to > match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB. Actually, it is more like your wheel is on pendulum (I hope this is correct word) attached to the center of gravity. The bigger the difference between center of your eyes and center of screen, the longer pendulum is. Mario

"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:j3mdtu$cnp$[email hidden]...

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> Mario Petrinovic: >> But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this >> affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it >> badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects >> FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to >> match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB. > > Actually, it is more like your wheel is on pendulum (I hope this is > correct word) attached to the center of gravity. The bigger the difference > between center of your eyes and center of screen, the longer pendulum is.

Actually, not pendulum, but a stick or a pole attached to center of gravity. Mario

Well sometimes it is not what you write, but how you write it. Your writing style is a bit, not sure if this is the right word, aggressive. Some of it may just be the translation, but often good ideas may not be well received if they are presented the wrong way. On the internet two people (even many people) agreeing on something doesn't make it right. And at for every opinion out there someone will have an opposing one. Life gets easier if you can accept that. BTW I am not an expert on control systems, and certainly don't know the inner workings of how FFB is implemented. I'm assuming the term "damping" in a FFB wheel settings is the same as damping in a control system, but sometimes different industries have different meanings for the same terms. For example in truth it is not really force feedback system, but more of a force feedforward system (i.e. the amount of force at the wheel is not fed back into the system to determine the new set point for the force. It is only one way as the wheel position is read the and the physics in the virtual environment is processed to determine the resulting force, whether or not the force is actually output has no (little) bearing on the next calculation of the force signal. For example you could cut the wires to the motor and the force calculated would be the same even though no force is generated). I can't say for sure that damping with a FFB wheel works in the way the way previously described as haven't done any testing or seen any results to prove it. The problem with FFB is that is very subjective. As you said things such as the amount of force felt will depend on how firmly someone is holding the wheel (i.e the controller just sends current to the motor, if someone is holding it tightly a force is produced, if it is not held the wheel just spins with no (little) force produced). What I would like to see is someone instrumenting the wheel to measure force (torque) and compare the measured force (torque) signal to the control signal. That would allow for proper tuning of the wheel settings to ensure that the force output follows the control signal, and would also determine lag, clipping, etc. Still have to think about what you are saying about the screen height/ FOV affecting FFB. Certainly lag in the FFB output can cause problems with timing in what is felt and what is seen on screen. To clarify, are you saying that if the driving position in the game (virtual cockpit) is moved higher the forces are changed? Or is it that if you move your real seating position relative to the monitor that the force changes (e.g. you raise/lower the monitor on the desk). On Aug 31, 7:14 pm, "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Ken MacKay: > > > > > Almost hate to jump in here but have been enjoying this thread so much > > have to contribute. > > > Some of what Mario has been saying might be lost in translation.  What > > I got from it was that he doesn't care if the larger forces like > > hitting curbs or bumps are clipped. I believe he wants the more subtle > > forces, like those coming from cornering, to come through stronger so > > he increases the wheel settings so these come through better, at the > > expense of the larger forces being clipped. > > > As for the comments about the damper settings I believe he is saying > > that without damping the forces coming through are noisy because > > without some damping the forces don't settle at the intended value. > > In a control system the goal is for the system to reach a new set > > point quickly and settle to that value. In a system with little > > damping the system will tend to overshoot the set point and then > > undershoot, and keep oscillating about the the set point for a few > > cycles.  Without any damping it may never settle to the set point and > > keep under-overshooting the set point (this may possibly be the > > "spikyness").  In a dynamic system, where the set point is always > > changing, no damping can produce very erratic behavior.  I believe > > this is why Mario is saying that having no damping is not correct. On > > the other hand an overdamped system takes longer to reach the set > > point, so for a dynamic system the intended levels may never be > > reached and this can completely obscure smaller/brief changes in set > > point. > >         Oh, thanks Ken. >         You obviously understand very well those things, and plus you have > experience with it. I also have some experience at my work. I was writing > exactly what you wrote, in iRacing forum, and boy, the reception I got, BOTH > from common laymen, and from iRacing. I mean, at least iRacing SHOULD know > something about it. I mean, maybe iRacing understands this, they never said > that they excluded me because of what I wrote, but because of complaining of > other people. This way or that way, this simply isn't fair. >         I mean, you wrote everything, and this cannot be written better. Who > is able to understand it, he will understand. The problem are some > missconceptions that are preveiling in simracing community. The > missconceptions aren't that bad, if they weren't backed up by > Papyrus/iRacing themselves. The most popular missconception is that damper > forces are canned. Of course they are canned, but without them FFB forces > DON'T work as intended. Simple as that. Both, Papyrus and iRacing > INTENTIONALLY dissabled damper. There is NO sense in this. Even if people > who are using damper are wrong (of course, they aren't), I mean, they have > the right to use it, if they want it. And then come some "purists" who want > "pure" forces. Lol, I mean... > > > As to whether his settings are correct or not I cannot say as don't > > have that wheel.  And again, this is how I interpreted his posts. > > YMMV. > > > I am still trying to translate what he is saying about FOV and > > cockpitLookDeadZone affecting FFB.  The only possible connection I > > could think of was that he is trying to get the feeling of immersion > > correct, such that the visuals are correct along with the forces > > coming through the wheel so that everything "feels" right.  But that > > is just a guess on my part.  If there is a correlation between the > > actual forces output by the wheel and  FOV and cockpitLookDeadZone > > settings I'd be glad to have an explanation of how they are linked and > > why the settings require such precision. > >         The incorrect FOV beahves like this: >         Too low FOV, picture is vertically compressed, and horizontally > stretched. >         Too high FOV, is the other way around. >         The arch you are seeing on your screen doesn't corespondence to the > forces you feel through wheel. If too low FOV, you have too sharp corners, > and other way around. >         But FOV isn't such a problem. >         CockiptLookDeadZone is some kind of lag menagement. I am still > testing it, but it looks like this should be something like 0.100000. > iRacing puts this to 0.050000. Of course that lag affects FFB very much. >         But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this > affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it > badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects > FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to > match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB. > >         Mario

Ken MacKay: Well sometimes it is not what you write, but how you write it. Your writing style is a bit, not sure if this is the right word, aggressive. Some of it may just be the translation, but often good ideas may not be well received if they are presented the wrong way. On the internet two people (even many people) agreeing on something doesn't make it right. And at for every opinion out there someone will have an opposing one. Life gets easier if you can accept that. -------------------------------------------------------------- No, life gets tougher. Because problems remain unsolved. First, I am NOT an aggresive person, and I wasn't aggresive. A lot of people perceive any new idea as an aggresion towards their world, but this doesn't mean that people who are spreading those ideas are aggresive, it is other people that are aggresive towards them. It is like someone would say that Galileo was aggresive with his ideas, while actually the others were aggresive towards him. While many people were EXTREMLY rude towards me, I tried to turn this into a fun, into a joke, or something. iRacing should have protected me from angry mob, but they did just the opposite. ------------------------------------------------------------- BTW I am not an expert on control systems, and certainly don't know the inner workings of how FFB is implemented. I'm assuming the term "damping" in a FFB wheel settings is the same as damping in a control system, but sometimes different industries have different meanings for the same terms. For example in truth it is not really force feedback system, but more of a force feedforward system (i.e. the amount of force at the wheel is not fed back into the system to determine the new set point for the force. It is only one way as the wheel position is read the and the physics in the virtual environment is processed to determine the resulting force, whether or not the force is actually output has no (little) bearing on the next calculation of the force signal. For example you could cut the wires to the motor and the force calculated would be the same even though no force is generated). I can't say for sure that damping with a FFB wheel works in the way the way previously described as haven't done any testing or seen any results to prove it. The problem with FFB is that is very subjective. As you said things such as the amount of force felt will depend on how firmly someone is holding the wheel (i.e the controller just sends current to the motor, if someone is holding it tightly a force is produced, if it is not held the wheel just spins with no (little) force produced). What I would like to see is someone instrumenting the wheel to measure force (torque) and compare the measured force (torque) signal to the control signal. That would allow for proper tuning of the wheel settings to ensure that the force output follows the control signal, and would also determine lag, clipping, etc. Still have to think about what you are saying about the screen height/ FOV affecting FFB. Certainly lag in the FFB output can cause problems with timing in what is felt and what is seen on screen. To clarify, are you saying that if the driving position in the game (virtual cockpit) is moved higher the forces are changed? Or is it that if you move your real seating position relative to the monitor that the force changes (e.g. you raise/lower the monitor on the desk). ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, start with lag. You drive your sim car guided by the picture on screen. The problem is that there is a DIFFERENCE in time, and this is reflected in FFB. FOV. For example, wrong FOV looks like some compressed or stretched world, like you are driving your car in a compressed (or stretched) world. There wouldn't be a problem to drive a car in such a world, if physics in sim are like physics in a compressed world, but they aren't, they are like in normal world, so here you have the DIFFERENCE which affects FFB. Imagine all the physics in sim. You can tie it to one particular point in space, and this is a vanishing point. You, in your normal world also have vanishing point, and your screen, just like everything else, fits into it, it is tied to it. Now, problem arise if you want to do something which isn't in your world, but in a virtual world inside the screen. This world has its own vanishing point, which doesn't match yours, and all your physics isn't aligned to the physics of the virtual world. The difference behaves just like I explained in the previous post. IOW, you drive your car like it is in your world (well, actually, the picture of it is in your world), while actually it isn't, it is in some other world, which is (the whole sim world) shifted down or up. Well, I cannot explain it better, but, of course, I can clearly feel it in FFB, otherwise I wouldn't write about it. I mean, there shouldn't be a problem for anyone to try it, just shift hight of picture up or down. Of course, if you have undamped FFB, you have big problems to perceive anything rightly, so any rise of screen can be just as confusing and FFB just as erratic. Mario

If Mario's recommended settings resulted in only the largest spike in forces to be clipped, I would find that perfectly reasonable. If the addition of damper results in a more realistic feel for him, I think that's great. I usually use some level of damping myself. I see two problems here; One, Mario describes clipping as some sort of extremely strong shock delivered through the wheel. He says this: "Clipping isn't just a constant force." But it is. If the wheel is clipping, it is outputting the constant maximum force allowed by the wheel's FFB settings.Everyone else in the world understands this, but Mario seems to be trying to redefine the use of the word. Secondly, his recommended 139/139/139 settings combined with any more than a 1 or 2 in-game FFB strength results in constant FFB clipping, i.e. max force output of the FFB motors. In fact, with a 139 overall strength, even at a 1 or 2 in-game setting, the usable cornering aligning torque feedback is being "squashed" into the upper range of force level, such that it might as well be clipped. With his original recommendation of 40 on the old 100 scale, or his new recommendation of 8 on the 40 scale, the only time the wheel will not be delivering max force output will be when the wheel is within a few degrees of the center of the aligning torque of the front tires. Going down an straight away, and slightly moving the steering wheel to the left or right will result in max force in the opposite direction. It's very unstable. The other thing is his ideas on FOV. If all he is saying is that the perspective needs to be correct in order for the brain to properly interpret FFB in the context of what is on-screen, then that is reasonable. But he seems to be saying that the forces felt at the wheel literally change when FOV settings are changed. I do not believe this. And even if they did change, IMO he would never be able to perceive the difference given the FFB settings he claims to run. But obviously, he has all the answers and everyone else in the world is clueless :)

Pat Dotson:

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> If Mario's recommended settings resulted in only the largest spike in > forces to be clipped, I would find that perfectly reasonable. If the > addition of damper results in a more realistic feel for him, I think > that's great. I usually use some level of damping myself. > > I see two problems here; > > > One, Mario describes clipping as some sort of extremely strong shock > delivered through the wheel. He says this: "Clipping isn't just a > constant force." But it is. If the wheel is clipping, it is > outputting the constant maximum force allowed by the wheel's FFB > settings.Everyone else in the world understands this, but Mario seems > to be trying to redefine the use of the word. > > > Secondly, his recommended 139/139/139 settings combined with any more > than a 1 or 2 in-game FFB strength results in constant FFB clipping, > i.e. max force output of the FFB motors. In fact, with a 139 overall > strength, even at a 1 or 2 in-game setting, the usable cornering > aligning torque feedback is being "squashed" into the upper range of > force level, such that it might as well be clipped. With his original > recommendation of 40 on the old 100 scale, or his new recommendation > of 8 on the 40 scale, the only time the wheel will not be delivering > max force output will be when the wheel is within a few degrees of the > center of the aligning torque of the front tires. Going down an > straight away, and slightly moving the steering wheel to the left or > right will result in max force in the opposite direction. It's very > unstable. > > > The other thing is his ideas on FOV. If all he is saying is that the > perspective needs to be correct in order for the brain to properly > interpret FFB in the context of what is on-screen, then that is > reasonable. But he seems to be saying that the forces felt at the > wheel literally change when FOV settings are changed. I do not > believe this. And even if they did change, IMO he would never be able > to perceive the difference given the FFB settings he claims to run. > > But obviously, he has all the answers and everyone else in the world > is clueless :)

In-game I use, 100 on the old scale, and 40.0 on the new scale. Regarding everything, you are doing something wrongly. I am not doing it, so I don't know what you are doing wrongly (generally I tend to avoid doing things wrongly). You are measuring something, you don't know what exactly. Somebody told you that this is it, and you accept this lightly. It is your problem, not mine. If everybody else also accepts this (lightly), this is also everybodyelse's problem, but also NOT mine. I wrote that clipping isn't JUST a constant force in Force Fedback. This means that it IS a constant force, but there is more to it. Mario

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>On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:39:29 -0700 (PDT), Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'll be interested to hear from anyone else who tries what Mario >recommends. I messed around with it for a bit just to see what would >happen. It went about as well as I expected. > >Mario, has anyone else ever confirmed your results? Has even one >other person ever responded positively to your posts on FFB? > >The FOV stuff is hilarious, BTW :) > >Pat

I tried, it was a joke. If he feels that those settings in any way approach real life (and I DO drive a race car) he needs (different) medication.. GR

GaryR:

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> >Pat Dotson: >>I'll be interested to hear from anyone else who tries what Mario >>recommends. I messed around with it for a bit just to see what would >>happen. It went about as well as I expected. >> >>Mario, has anyone else ever confirmed your results? Has even one >>other person ever responded positively to your posts on FFB? >> >>The FOV stuff is hilarious, BTW :) > > I tried, it was a joke. If he feels that those settings in any way > approach real life (and I DO drive a race car) he needs (different) > medication..

Where you can have problems: You got to set hight of screen ("DrivingVanishY"), latency ("cockpitLookDeadZone") and FOV. FFB signal is something like hi-fi, you got to have clean, undisturbed signal. You got to get rid of compression-like things, other noise and delays. For example, iRacing's AA and AF works like a compression (I presume). Use video card AA and AF. Use no-limit fps. And things like that. Use USB port that doesn't share resources with other things. I disable all I/O ports that I don't need. And things like that. Dirtiness, compression and delays affect FFB. Regarding how much it approaches real life. The way I am using FFB is the standard made by inventors and productors of FFB and FFB devices. They should know what they are doing, and it is advisable, if you are using FFB devices, to use them per their standard. If you don't use them like that, you can expect to have below average results. I don't get constant clipping, if I would drive my wheel with the strongest force it can produce, I wouldn't be able to drive a car, and I am getting 1:57 at Suzuka, with fixed Corvette setup. Even more, I am just testing FFB, and when you are testing FFB your last lap should be driven like your first lap, otherwise you lose reference points, and you musn't improve your driving line, or anything, the improvement in time must be solely because of the improvement of FFB. Of course, I cannot resist to improve on my driving line a bit, but this definitely isn't some major effort, and I do have some room to improve times, when I finaly set the FFB correctly. Mario

Sorry Mario, but the whole FFB thing is subjective at best, even on a $15000 simulator. The 2D screen, the shaking, etc. are nothing like what is felt in a real car so my thought is set it the way that "feels" good and go play. Some of the fastest sim drivers in the world can beat you with a joystick and no FFB, my thought is you are wasteing a lot of time trying to achieve the unachievable.. it's a game after all, just play it. GR

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>On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 11:50:35 +0200, "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote: >GaryR: >> >Pat Dotson: >>>I'll be interested to hear from anyone else who tries what Mario >>>recommends. I messed around with it for a bit just to see what would >>>happen. It went about as well as I expected. >>> >>>Mario, has anyone else ever confirmed your results? Has even one >>>other person ever responded positively to your posts on FFB? >>> >>>The FOV stuff is hilarious, BTW :) >> >> I tried, it was a joke. If he feels that those settings in any way >> approach real life (and I DO drive a race car) he needs (different) >> medication.. > > Where you can have problems: > You got to set hight of screen ("DrivingVanishY"), latency >("cockpitLookDeadZone") and FOV. > FFB signal is something like hi-fi, you got to have clean, >undisturbed signal. You got to get rid of compression-like things, other >noise and delays. For example, iRacing's AA and AF works like a compression >(I presume). Use video card AA and AF. Use no-limit fps. And things like >that. Use USB port that doesn't share resources with other things. I disable >all I/O ports that I don't need. And things like that. Dirtiness, >compression and delays affect FFB. > Regarding how much it approaches real life. The way I am using FFB >is the standard made by inventors and productors of FFB and FFB devices. >They should know what they are doing, and it is advisable, if you are using >FFB devices, to use them per their standard. If you don't use them like >that, you can expect to have below average results. > I don't get constant clipping, if I would drive my wheel with the >strongest force it can produce, I wouldn't be able to drive a car, and I am >getting 1:57 at Suzuka, with fixed Corvette setup. Even more, I am just >testing FFB, and when you are testing FFB your last lap should be driven >like your first lap, otherwise you lose reference points, and you musn't >improve your driving line, or anything, the improvement in time must be >solely because of the improvement of FFB. Of course, I cannot resist to >improve on my driving line a bit, but this definitely isn't some major >effort, and I do have some room to improve times, when I finaly set the FFB >correctly. > > Mario

GaryR:

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> Sorry Mario, but the whole FFB thing is subjective at best, even on a > $15000 simulator. The 2D screen, the shaking, etc. are nothing like > what is felt in a real car so my thought is set it the way that > "feels" good and go play. Some of the fastest sim drivers in the world > can beat you with a joystick and no FFB, my thought is you are > wasteing a lot of time trying to achieve the unachievable.. it's a > game after all, just play it.

Yes, that is your thought. My thought is that this isn't so. Just like Ken said, you got to have just the right amount of damping. The same goes for everything else. For now, it really looks like all four things have to be on the same value. But, there also problems regarding some other things (lag, FOV, dirty USB signal, and so on). So, this is my thought, and my discussions are for people who are thinking like me. So far, it looks like it works (I am driving pretty well with my setup, much better than with iRacing's way to set up FFB, and I am much more pleased with what kind of FFB I am getting). The big problem is in iRacing (and the sim community). It looks like initially they were pretty confused about FFB, and overhelmed with all those numbers, and couldn't find the right way, so they created some kind of FFB alchemy. Good example is the question od damping, where they support the way that without damping you get the "pure" signal (which ISN'T the "right" signal, just like, now suddenly shy, Ken explained). Then they have put 75% damping. This alchemy just puts more confusion. Why don't they leave people to do this for themselves (if THEIR view ALSO is that this is subjective). Well, I am working on it, and trying to find the answers. Mario

Ken is not being shy, he just doesn't have anything new to add. ;-) Have found nothing that clarifies if damping in FFB settings is applied the same way as it is in control systems or how it is used (or not used) by the software. Don't have any way of verifying if the suggested settings are correct. Unless someone has come up with a way of measuring the forces at the wheel and comparing them to the forces being requested by the software then whether or not the forces are correct for given settings will be subjective.

Ken MacKay:

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> Ken is not being shy, he just doesn't have anything new to add. ;-) > Have found nothing that clarifies if damping in FFB settings is > applied the same way as it is in control systems or how it is used (or > not used) by the software. Don't have any way of verifying if the > suggested settings are correct. Unless someone has come up with a way > of measuring the forces at the wheel and comparing them to the forces > being requested by the software then whether or not the forces are > correct for given settings will be subjective.

You cannot do this, because this thing is dynamic, and it works on a feedback, differnt feed, different output. But, once the "control" settings are established, you CAN do one thing. You can distinguish *patterns* produced by incorrect settings (in comparission to the correct settings), and produce a tool which can help you to minimaze/eliminate those patterns, and thus help you establish more correct settings more easily. Mario