Which FF Wheel to Buy - that is the question! ;)

Having never used an FF wheel, but always wanted to, I am concidering buying one when I upgrade my PC in a little while - if I ever get aroun to it, that is. :) I like the look of the Microsoft FF wheel, and am especially pleased by its weight, as the steering wheel I have at the moment often slips and slides around. The most important thing to me is the number of programmable buttons. The more the better! The second important thing is that it have the wheel, the gearstick and the pedals. My wheel has all three at the moment, and only cost 49.99. :) If somebody could please let me know the name of a good FF wheel, and where one can buy it from in England, I would appreciate it. Cheers. Griffin, the Slayer

This is a very tough decision. Logitech's Formula Force is a very good setup and seems to be the best (besides TSW2) for GPL. Although it lacks the gearstick which you want. I got a hands-on look at the Shifter RS (preview to ACT LABS' Force RS wheel, which is a solid choice on it's own. Some complaints include tough pedals (sometimes) and flimsy F1 style-shifters. The shifters have been redone though, and after giving them a test at E3, they seem a lot better. Although, the shifter RS won't be out until this fall, it's definately something to consider when purchasing your wheel. -- Tony Wyss, Editor-in-Chief Gamers Alliance Sports www.ga-sports.com ------------------------------- Network Developer Gamers Alliance, Inc. www.gagames.com ------------------------------- "I'm not an athlete, I'm a baseball player" - John Kruk

On Wed, 19 May 1999 01:42:39 GMT, "Tony Wyss"

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>This is a very tough decision. Logitech's Formula Force is a very good setup >and seems to be the best (besides TSW2) for GPL. Although it lacks the >gearstick which you want. I got a hands-on look at the Shifter RS (preview >to ACT LABS' Force RS wheel, which is a solid choice on it's own. Some >complaints include tough pedals (sometimes) and flimsy F1 style-shifters. >The shifters have been redone though, and after giving them a test at E3, >they seem a lot better. Although, the shifter RS won't be out until this >fall, it's definately something to consider when purchasing your wheel. >-- >Tony Wyss, Editor-in-Chief >Gamers Alliance Sports >www.ga-sports.com >------------------------------- >Network Developer >Gamers Alliance, Inc. >www.gagames.com >------------------------------- >"I'm not an athlete, I'm a baseball player" - John Kruk

Thanks for that. I'll keep it in mind. One other problem I have noticed is that the cable which goes from the pedals to the back of my steering wheel is very short indeed. So short in fact that I have to sit with the chair in its highest position, with the pedals right up close. For somebody like myself, who is around 6.3" tall, this is very difficult indeed. Are all of them like this? Griffin, the Slayer

What type of racing are you interested in?? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

While saying(most of you guys;) that Logitech FF wheel is better than other products I must remind you that if you play GPL, the pedals are more important than the wheel itself... MS FF has _much_ better pedals in every way(I have tested both). (just an example: travel 5,5cm, where Logitech has only half of it..). Is Logitech really worth the red color? ;) Only thing I'm concerned is that is MS FF good after 6 months of use? Tony Wyss kirjoitti viestiss? ... >This is a very tough decision. Logitech's Formula Force is a very good setup >and seems to be the best (besides TSW2) for GPL. Although it lacks the >gearstick which you want. I got a hands-on look at the Shifter RS (preview appeal

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>to ACT LABS' Force RS wheel, which is a solid choice on it's own. Some >complaints include tough pedals (sometimes) and flimsy F1 style-shifters. >The shifters have been redone though, and after giving them a test at E3, >they seem a lot better. Although, the shifter RS won't be out until this >fall, it's definately something to consider when purchasing your wheel. >-- >Tony Wyss, Editor-in-Chief >Gamers Alliance Sports

<snip> > Only thing I'm concerned is that is MS FF good after 6 months > of use? Yes! Randy

Sure is Marko. Although I lubricated the electric motor recently and it is smoother than I can remember. And the pedals work really well with half a squashball under the brake. Ian

better than other products I must remind you that if you play GPL, the pedals are more important than the wheel itself... of course, that bit about the pedals in GPL is true. but i hear that the excellent CH pedals (which lots of us already have) can be used with the Logitech. I hope this is the case. Would people choose the Logitech unquestionably if the pedals were better? On a related note, does the use of the pedals (in the gameport) and the wheel (USB or serial port) negate the supposed CPU unloading one gets by not using a wheel in the gameport? Does it make it even worse (since you're now using USB and gameport?) thanks mark

On Wed, 19 May 1999 00:19:30 -0500, "Greg Cisko"

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>>Having never used an FF wheel, but always wanted to, I am concidering >>buying one when I upgrade my PC in a little while - if I ever get >>aroun to it, that is. :) >What type of racing are you interested in?? >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Formula 1, Nascar, Indycar, etc. Pretty much all car racing. :) I've noticed that the clutch in Viper Racing and GPL is analogue, so are there any FF wheels with a good clutch pedal? Griffin, the Slayer

I've got MS FF Sidewinder Wheel in March for my birthday. Got it from www.technomatic.co.uk and arrived the next day. Also try www.insight.com - they are good as well - I get a lot of hardware from them. Which games have I used: TOCA 2 - brilliant NFSIII - brilliant Grand Prix Legends - no FF, but a good wheel for it Colin MCRAe Rally - with the new patch, very good Carmageedon II - OK test Drive 5 - Very Good Ultimate Race Pro - OK MS Monster Truck Madness - supplied with wheel - very good MS Cart Precision Racing - supplied with wheel - OK MS Midtown Madness is comiung out and I suppose it should work well with that Just make sure it is firmly seated. It should cost you no more that 110 over the internet - you may over the odds at shops, especially PC World If you need any more help, please feel free to contact me Matthew For all your Railroad Tyoon II needs visit U.K. Rail Express at http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com ########################### |#| [~~~~ ######### | |_[]__[_ [~~~~~~~~] [~~~~~~ | ------ ] ] [http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com | ------ ] ] [http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/urc.yorkshire/index.htm { ------- ]__] [http://www.NetcomUK.co.uk/~jmhorton/index.html _|____________]-[________]-[______ /_o o O O o o o o o o o o

Got my Logitech Formula Force working with the Ch pedals, makes all the difference in the world! I can now actualy modulate the brake and not just lock up my wheels like I used to do. I would say yes! Allthough with the original pedals my best lap in the Lotus around Watkins Glen was in the high 1.09's which really aint half bad! The stock Logitech pedals arent really all that bad BUT the CH pedals are Much Better. Funny thing though I've yet to beat that record with the CH pedals as I'm still in the process of re-learning how to brake agian! ( Aint fired up GPL for over a month until I set it up with the CH pedals and I've only been using them for about 2 days now) You lost me on that one, I have no idea what your talkiing about! Jim

>of course, that bit about the pedals in GPL is true. but i hear that the >excellent CH pedals (which lots of us already have) can be used with the >Logitech. I hope this is the case. Would people choose the Logitech >unquestionably if the pedals were better? IMHO the logitech pedals are getting a bad rap. They are *WAY* better than one would expect. In fact I don't give it a second thought. If I return my Formula Force it certainly won't be because of the pedals. I notice no difference in performance in F1RS between my LogitechUSB and my TM T2 setup. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

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>I've got MS FF Sidewinder Wheel in March for my birthday. >Got it from www.technomatic.co.uk and arrived the next day. >Also try www.insight.com - they are good as well - I get a lot of >hardware from them. >Which games have I used: >TOCA 2 - brilliant >NFSIII - brilliant >Grand Prix Legends - no FF, but a good wheel for it >Colin MCRAe Rally - with the new patch, very good >Carmageedon II - OK >test Drive 5 - Very Good >Ultimate Race Pro - OK >MS Monster Truck Madness - supplied with wheel - very good >MS Cart Precision Racing - supplied with wheel - OK >MS Midtown Madness is comiung out and I suppose it should work well >with that >Just make sure it is firmly seated. >It should cost you no more that 110 over the internet - you may over >the odds at shops, especially PC World >If you need any more help, please feel free to contact me >Matthew >For all your Railroad Tyoon II needs visit U.K. Rail Express at >http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com > ########################### > |#| [~~~~ ######### > | |_[]__[_ [~~~~~~~~] [~~~~~~ > | ------ ] ] [http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com > | ------ ] ] [http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/urc.yorkshire/index.htm > { ------- ]__] [http://www.NetcomUK.co.uk/~jmhorton/index.html > _|____________]-[________]-[______ > /_o o O O o o o o o o o o

How many buttons does it have, and how heavy is it? How stable does it feel? Griffin, the Slayer

Nope, not yet. ALthough, since GPL recognizes 11 axii, you can always configure an old joystick to act as an analogue clutch. :)

I think Randy Cassidy just indicated that 1.0 would support up to 8 *axes* and that 1.1 would support at least 12, as reported by the Thrustmaster Force GT. Jack Rambo www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

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>>I've got MS FF Sidewinder Wheel in March for my birthday. >>Got it from www.technomatic.co.uk and arrived the next day. >>Also try www.insight.com - they are good as well - I get a lot of >>hardware from them. >>Which games have I used: >>TOCA 2 - brilliant >>NFSIII - brilliant >>Grand Prix Legends - no FF, but a good wheel for it >>Colin MCRAe Rally - with the new patch, very good >>Carmageedon II - OK >>test Drive 5 - Very Good >>Ultimate Race Pro - OK >>MS Monster Truck Madness - supplied with wheel - very good >>MS Cart Precision Racing - supplied with wheel - OK >>MS Midtown Madness is comiung out and I suppose it should work well >>with that >>Just make sure it is firmly seated. >>It should cost you no more that 110 over the internet - you may over >>the odds at shops, especially PC World >>If you need any more help, please feel free to contact me >>Matthew >>For all your Railroad Tyoon II needs visit U.K. Rail Express at >>http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com >> ########################### >> |#| [~~~~ ######### >> | |_[]__[_ [~~~~~~~~] [~~~~~~ >> | ------ ] ] [http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com >> | ------ ] ] [http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com >> { ------- ]__] [http://www.urcyorkshire.org.uk/~jmhorton/index.html >> _|____________]-[________]-[______ >> /_o o O O o o o o o o o o >How many buttons does it have, and how heavy is it? >How stable does it feel? >Griffin, the Slayer

Six buttons + two paddles very stable if you clamp it to a stable point, though the pedals will slip on carpet sometimes! Matthew For all your Railroad Tyoon II needs visit U.K. Rail Express at http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com ########################### |#| [~~~~ ######### | |_[]__[_ [~~~~~~~~] [~~~~~~ | ------ ] ] [http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com | ------ ] ] [http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/urc.yorkshire/index.htm { ------- ]__] [http://www.NetcomUK.co.uk/~jmhorton/index.html _|____________]-[________]-[______ /_o o O O o o o o o o o o

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>I would say yes! Allthough with the original pedals my best lap in the >Lotus around Watkins Glen was in the high 1.09's which really aint >half bad! The stock Logitech pedals arent really all that bad BUT the >CH pedals are Much Better. Funny thing though I've yet to beat that >record with the CH pedals as I'm still in the process of re-learning >how to brake agian! ( Aint fired up GPL for over a month until I set >it up with the CH pedals and I've only been using them for about 2 >days now)

Wouldn't it be neat if there was a pedal set which came with software which could control how far down the computer recognises the pedals when pushed? You could then set it so that no matter how hard you push on the brake pedal, it would only brake as hard as it does JUST before the wheels lock in GPL, giving you the optimal brakes? Perhaps this isn't a good description. Let me know if I should put it another way. Griffin, the Slayer

On Thu, 20 May 1999 07:46:15 -0500, "Chris Schletter" >> I've noticed that the clutch in Viper Racing and GPL is analogue, so >> are there any FF wheels with a good clutch pedal? >Nope, not yet. ALthough, since GPL recognizes 11 axii, you can always >configure an old joystick to act as an analogue clutch. :) How can you plug two game controllers (wheel and stick) into the same computer at one time? Griffin, the Slayer

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>>>I've got MS FF Sidewinder Wheel in March for my birthday. >>>Got it from www.technomatic.co.uk and arrived the next day. >>>Also try www.insight.com - they are good as well - I get a lot of >>>hardware from them. >>>Which games have I used: >>>TOCA 2 - brilliant >>>NFSIII - brilliant >>>Grand Prix Legends - no FF, but a good wheel for it >>>Colin MCRAe Rally - with the new patch, very good >>>Carmageedon II - OK >>>test Drive 5 - Very Good >>>Ultimate Race Pro - OK >>>MS Monster Truck Madness - supplied with wheel - very good >>>MS Cart Precision Racing - supplied with wheel - OK >>>MS Midtown Madness is comiung out and I suppose it should work well >>>with that >>>Just make sure it is firmly seated. >>>It should cost you no more that 110 over the internet - you may over >>>the odds at shops, especially PC World >>>If you need any more help, please feel free to contact me >>>Matthew >>>For all your Railroad Tyoon II needs visit U.K. Rail Express at >>>http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com >>> ########################### >>> |#| [~~~~ ######### >>> | |_[]__[_ [~~~~~~~~] [~~~~~~ >>> | ------ ] ] [http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com >>> | ------ ] ] [http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/urc.yorkshire/index.htm >>> { ------- ]__] [http://www.NetcomUK.co.uk/~jmhorton/index.html >>> _|____________]-[________]-[______ >>> /_o o O O o o o o o o o o >>How many buttons does it have, and how heavy is it? >>How stable does it feel? >>Griffin, the Slayer >Six buttons + two paddles >very stable if you clamp it to a stable point, though the pedals will >slip on carpet sometimes! >Matthew >For all your Railroad Tyoon II needs visit U.K. Rail Express at >http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com > ########################### > |#| [~~~~ ######### > | |_[]__[_ [~~~~~~~~] [~~~~~~ > | ------ ] ] [http://rrtii.future.easyspace.com > | ------ ] ] [http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/urc.yorkshire/index.htm > { ------- ]__] [http://www.NetcomUK.co.uk/~jmhorton/index.html > _|____________]-[________]-[______ > /_o o O O o o o o o o o o

Does it come with any software, like Gravis products do? Griffin, the Slayer

> How can you plug two game controllers (wheel and stick) into the same > computer at one time? Any number of ways. If you have a PDPI gameport, you can plug as many as four separate 4 axis 4 button controllers into it. Each one will be recognized and calibrated in Windows. If you only have a standard analog gameport, you can also plug a USB controller in at the same time and have both recognized. One guy here at the office has a Sidewinder Precision Pro in his USB, a Logitech FF wheel in the serial port, and a Wingman Extreme in the gameport. I've got an Act Labs RS wheel, a Wingman Extreme, a 2 axis 2 button stick, and a TM GP wheel all plugged in to my PDPI here at work. At home I've got a TM Nascar Pro and a TM F22/TQS/RCS combo on my PDPI. Trips D. Bell on VROC

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> > How can you plug two game controllers (wheel and stick) into the same > > computer at one time? > Any number of ways. If you have a PDPI gameport, you can plug as many as > four separate 4 axis 4 button controllers into it. Each one will be > recognized and calibrated in Windows. > If you only have a standard analog gameport, you can also plug a USB > controller in at the same time and have both recognized. One guy here at > the office has a Sidewinder Precision Pro in his USB, a Logitech FF wheel > in the serial port, and a Wingman Extreme in the gameport. > I've got an Act Labs RS wheel, a Wingman Extreme, a 2 axis 2 button stick, > and a TM GP wheel all plugged in to my PDPI here at work. At home I've got > a TM Nascar Pro and a TM F22/TQS/RCS combo on my PDPI.

OK, but how do you use a combination of a wheel from one manufacturer and pedals from another (eg. FF wheel plus TSW pedals) within the same game? Presumably you need to do something to make the game think the two controllers are actually different axes on the same controller?

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> > I've got an Act Labs RS wheel, a Wingman Extreme, a 2 axis 2 button stick, > > and a TM GP wheel all plugged in to my PDPI here at work. At home I've got > > a TM Nascar Pro and a TM F22/TQS/RCS combo on my PDPI. > OK, but how do you use a combination of a wheel from one manufacturer > and pedals from another (eg. FF wheel plus TSW pedals) within the same > game? > Presumably you need to do something to make the game think the two > controllers are actually different axes on the same controller?

You *could* do that with a program called Virtual Stick. It comes free with the PDPI game card. Luckily, as an earlier poster said, GPL using direct input will recognize multiple controller devices. As long as they are configured in the Win9X controller menu, you can calibrate all of them in GPL. Then, just assign the axis or button from whichever controller you want to use to the GPL control (steering, gas, or whatever), in any combination you want. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Use a game that has good controller support :-) Once the customer has properly configured their devices in the Game Controllers control panel, it's pretty easy for the game to ask DirectInput to tell it about all the connected controllers. It's then just a matter of presenting the user with a method of assigning a controller (axis, button, key) to a controlled function (gas, brake, wave arm....). Randy

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> Wouldn't it be neat if there was a pedal set which came with software > which could control how far down the computer recognises the pedals > when pushed? You could then set it so that no matter how hard you push > on the brake pedal, it would only brake as hard as it does JUST before > the wheels lock in GPL, giving you the optimal brakes? > Perhaps this isn't a good description. Let me know if I should put it > another way.

I think there is a joystick utility that might allow you to do this, but... You could do the same thing by calibrating your pedal normally, then putting some sort of removable stop under your pedal (it would need to be removable so you can re-calibrate later). Then you'll only get partial brake pedal throw/partial braking power. That's kind of what people are doing with racquetballs. It gives you more resistance as you push the pedal further, but still allows full brake pedal travel. I think this is a better solution. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

But wouldn't that depend on the type of pedals they have? I'm not sure if I would be able to stick a tennis ball under mine. Griffin, the Slayer

>OK, but how do you use a combination of a wheel from one manufacturer >and pedals from another (eg. FF wheel plus TSW pedals) within the same >game? >Presumably you need to do something to make the game think the two >controllers are actually different axes on the same controller? It will work if one device is USB and the other is analog. And the game allows you to use winbloze joystick ID's other than #1. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Correct! I have my Logitech Formula Force configured on ID#2 and F1RS sees it and uses it with not problem. All analog joysticks connected to a conventional gameport must be configured on ID#1. I know that it would be no problem to configure my TM T2 on ID#1 and my Logitech on ID#2 and let F1RS use the Logitech wheel and T2 pedals. The only problem is that this isn't necessary since there is nothing wrong with the Logitech pedals :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

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> >OK, but how do you use a combination of a wheel from one manufacturer > >and pedals from another (eg. FF wheel plus TSW pedals) within the same > >game? > >Presumably you need to do something to make the game think the two > >controllers are actually different axes on the same controller? > It will work if one device is USB and the other is analog. And the > game allows you to use winbloze joystick ID's other than #1.

Thanks for the info - BTW, I've just received my PDPI card and I noticed that they have a "Virtual Stick" utility that allows you to combine inputs from several gameport devices so that they appear to be a single device with more axes, so it looks like it can also be done with multiple analogue devices.

> OK, but how do you use a combination of a wheel from one manufacturer > and pedals from another (eg. FF wheel plus TSW pedals) within the same > game? > Presumably you need to do something to make the game think the two > controllers are actually different axes on the same controller? Depends on the game. A properly coded game will accept input from any connected and calibrated controller axis. For the games that don't, the PDPI card comes with a utility called "Virtual Stick" that allows you to specify any four axes from all available and combine them into a virtual four axis controller that appears to games to be a single controller. Trips D. Bell on VROC

> I think there is a joystick utility that might > allow you to do this, but... You're probably referring to the CTFJ utility which allows scaling of the X and Y axes. If however, the brake is on any other axis (which ALL separate brakes are) the CTFJ utility can't do any scaling on it. I managed to achieve this effect by adding a second potentiometer in series with my brake pot. During calibration process in GPL I'd depress the brake fully, then dial in a bit more resistance with the extra pot. After calibration I'd then reduce the second pot back to zero. GPL then expected more resistance from the brakes than the pedal could deliver on its own. By carefully adjusting the exact amount of extra resistance applied during the calibration phase, i could achieve very reliable no-lock threshold braking at full pedal mash. Only problem with that method was that I felt it would be sleazy to use it for online racing. I switched to the ball under the pedal method once I started racing online. I'm actually liking it better than the extra pot method. Rather than a tennis or squash ball, I use a half of a "superball" (one of those high bounce solid *** balls you see in the 25 cent vending machines at the supermarket) It provides a VERY firm pedal resistance right before threshold. Trips D. Bell on VROC

>Only problem with that method was that I felt it would be sleazy to use it >for online racing. I don't know. You should get credit for innovation! GPL is F1 after all. I think you should use it and see if it makes a difference. I suspect it won't :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

> >Only problem with that method was that I felt it would be sleazy to use it > >for online racing. > I don't know. You should get credit for innovation! GPL is F1 after > all. I think you should use it and see if it makes a difference. I > suspect it won't :-) It made a big difference for me for offline hotlapping... A second and a half off my personal best at Monza the first time out, and far more consistent as well. I've since gone even faster with the *** ball in place, and i don't feel at all slimy this way. Trips D. Bell on VROC

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> Correct! I have my Logitech Formula Force configured on ID#2 > and F1RS sees it and uses it with not problem. All analog joysticks > connected to a conventional gameport must be configured on ID#1. > I know that it would be no problem to configure my TM T2 on ID#1 > and my Logitech on ID#2 and let F1RS use the Logitech wheel > and T2 pedals. The only problem is that this isn't necessary since > there is nothing wrong with the Logitech pedals :-)

I have some counter experience. My USB FF wheel had some software (I presume) hickup and had some strange response (strange output scaling). I switched to using it analog. So now I have a 4 axis USB stick as controller number 1, followed by the analog 4 axis wheel as controller number 2. BTW, this has the advantage of letting me use the first controller with a particular flightsim that has ancient joystick code that only recognizes the first controller. ;) GPL and other programs with decent joystick code (including ours ;) can pick and chose between all the axes. -- Matthew V. Jessick Motorsims Vehicle Dynamics Engineer (972)910-8866, Fax: (972)910-8216

>I have some counter experience. >My USB FF wheel had some software (I presume) hickup >and had some strange response (strange output scaling). >I switched to using it analog. How did you switch to analog? I haven't read/heard anything about doing this before. I think You can setup your TM T2 (or similar) on ID#1 and the Logitech FF on ID#2 and you should be able to select the Logitech wheel and TM pedals in games like F1RS and probably GPL. Is this what you are talking about? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

> How did you switch to analog? I haven't read/heard anything > about doing this before. Yes, the USB Logitech FF wheel plugged into the soundcard port. - Matt

>Yes, the USB Logitech FF wheel plugged into the soundcard port. Is that some kind of joke? The instruction specifically tell you not to plug it into the soundcard game port. I think there must be some misunderstanding. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Great idea, thx Jens <snip> <snip> --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address