Question about FF (and some answers)

> My question is this. If drivers choose to use FF online, wont they be > at a disadvantage? I would think that having to deal with more > feedback would give the individuals using non-FF wheels an advantage > because they could be smoother, etc. When running *without* FF, you can definitely get away with sloppier driving. I think FF will actually make you drive more smoothly. I'm not sure yet if it will be a disadvantage or not. It's a lot like the difference between driving with a wheel or a joystick - with a joystick you can make faster steering corrections than you can with a wheel. FF sort of slows down the wheel even more. The upside to FF, of course, is that you have a better idea of how the car is handling, and should be able to better avoid getting out of control. Without FF I tend to slide a lot more and generally just drive with a loose style. FF makes me drive much more smoothly, and my lap times are more consistent too. Bottom line, for hotlapping, it will probably be hard to match non-FF times with a FF wheel, because in hotlapping you are just memorizing a perfect lap and executing it from memory. There really isn't a lot of reaction involved. For racing, though, FF allows better handling in several ways. One, if you are off the normal pace, it's easier to corner at the limit. Two, it's easier to take different lines through a corner. Both of these things make driving in traffic easier. Another big plus for FF is that it seems to lessen sensory overload while racing. Typically, you have to visually assess both how the car is handling and what traffic is doing. With FF, I'm not spending as much energy trying to evaluate handling because a lot of that information is coming through the wheel, and reactions are purely reflexive. That allows more attention to be paid to what other cars are doing, or what line I want to take. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Quoted text (45 lines)

>> My question is this. If drivers choose to use FF online, wont they be >> at a disadvantage? I would think that having to deal with more >> feedback would give the individuals using non-FF wheels an advantage >> because they could be smoother, etc. >When running *without* FF, you can definitely get away with >sloppier driving. I think FF will actually make you drive >more smoothly. I'm not sure yet if it will be a disadvantage >or not. >It's a lot like the difference between driving with a wheel >or a joystick - with a joystick you can make faster steering >corrections than you can with a wheel. FF sort of slows >down the wheel even more. The upside to FF, of course, is >that you have a better idea of how the car is handling, and >should be able to better avoid getting out of control. >Without FF I tend to slide a lot more and generally just >drive with a loose style. FF makes me drive much more >smoothly, and my lap times are more consistent too. >Bottom line, for hotlapping, it will probably be hard to >match non-FF times with a FF wheel, because in hotlapping >you are just memorizing a perfect lap and executing it >from memory. There really isn't a lot of reaction involved. >For racing, though, FF allows better handling in several >ways. One, if you are off the normal pace, it's easier >to corner at the limit. Two, it's easier to take different >lines through a corner. Both of these things make driving >in traffic easier. >Another big plus for FF is that it seems to lessen sensory >overload while racing. Typically, you have to visually >assess both how the car is handling and what traffic is >doing. With FF, I'm not spending as much energy trying >to evaluate handling because a lot of that information >is coming through the wheel, and reactions are purely >reflexive. That allows more attention to be paid to what >other cars are doing, or what line I want to take. >-- >Pat Dotson >IMPACT Motorsports >http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Never having used FF, in any sim, I'm not entirely sure just how spot on the FF can be, however I would assume that it's quite close to being very real indeed. If this is the case I can certainly see how improvements could be make to lap times for people who use it. One of the problems I have sometimes found myself having is at Monaco, for example. Just before the [what has newly been named...] Grand Hotel corner, there's the sharp left hander, which is more or less a 180* turn. Depending on your setup, some may require to use the full steering lock, and that's where problems can occur. I've often found myself going just a tad too quickly, and dispite the full steering lock, the car continues to drive forward. Now, with force feedback however, I would be able to _fell_ if the car has handling OK on the corner _before_ I hit the wall. At the moment however, I'm screwed! ;-) What really would be wonderful is if there were an FF wheel which ALSO had FF pedels, so you could _feel_ when you were braking too harsh, or accelerating too quickly. Now that would be a GREAT improvement to GPL! Griffin, the Slayer

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Another big plus for FF is that it seems to lessen sensory > overload while racing. Typically, you have to visually > assess both how the car is handling and what traffic is > doing. With FF, I'm not spending as much energy trying > to evaluate handling because a lot of that information > is coming through the wheel, and reactions are purely > reflexive. That allows more attention to be paid to what > other cars are doing, or what line I want to take.

Man - I look forward to that! I sometimes wonder if I even "blink" during a race. So much intensity. My eye's are always dry when I'm done. It will be nice to take some of the load off them. Do you know of a way that I can use a FF Wheel (like the Logitech) with my TSW2 pedals? I really like my pedals (the wheel is gonna be hard to put down too). Maybe someday Thomas Enterprises will pull through with FF... David L. Cook

Thanks! Looking forward to your response :) > I'll try it tonight and let you know how these devices work with the LWFF. :)

Don't hold yer breath on the last part. :) But, you should be able to use both the Logitech and TSW2 pedals. Keep your TSW2 plugged into the gameport, plug the LWFF in as a USB controler (runs on its own gameport). Make sure both are calibrated in WIndows for sanity. Then go into GPL and you should be able to calibrate both wheels and both sets of pedals as GPL looks through at least 11 axii I do believe (think Randy said GPL1.1 will do 16...mms). Anyways, once you have it calibrated, just do as normal and select the logitech wheel for steering and pedals for pedalling. :) It might work, would have to try it at home and see if I can't get this to work since I have at least 4 different control devices to play with. I'll try it tonight and let you know how these devices work with the LWFF. :)

> Never having used FF, in any sim, I'm not entirely sure just how spot > on the FF can be, however I would assume that it's quite close to > being very real indeed. If this is the case I can certainly see how > improvements could be make to lap times for people who use it. As I said, I'll be very surprised if anyone ever beats the current GPL non-FF records and sets a new world record with FF enabled. That's not at all meant as a put down to FF, it's in fact a tribute. Driving with FF requires a more realistic driving style, which doesn't lend itself to fast hotlaps. Without FF, you can slip and slide to your hearts content without paying much of a penalty. With FF, you will pay a price for not driving smoothly. If you drive into that turn too fast, even with FF, you'll still be screwed - you'll just know you're screwed sooner! :) That's what tire squeal is for. I'm not sure how that information could be passed through pedals, either in a sim or in real life. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

> Do you know of a way that I can use a FF Wheel (like the Logitech) with my > TSW2 pedals? I really like my pedals (the wheel is gonna be hard to put > down too). Maybe someday Thomas Enterprises will pull through with FF... Yes. All you have to do is have both controllers connected to your computer, and have both devices configured in Win9X. GPL will recognize both devices, and you can assign controls in whatever combination you want. It's a piece of cake. My setup is an ACT Labs Force RS connected to a serial port, with some home-built pedals connected to a PDPI L4. Combined with a BSG Labs Intensor LX chair and sub-woofer, it's heaven :) -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Feeling the brakes is something that happens, but as far as response from the throttle that's absolute impossible. It's just linked to the engine, so you won't get any feedback from it.

Quoted text (69 lines)

>>> My question is this. If drivers choose to use FF online, wont they be >>> at a disadvantage? I would think that having to deal with more >>> feedback would give the individuals using non-FF wheels an advantage >>> because they could be smoother, etc. >>When running *without* FF, you can definitely get away with >>sloppier driving. I think FF will actually make you drive >>more smoothly. I'm not sure yet if it will be a disadvantage >>or not. >>It's a lot like the difference between driving with a wheel >>or a joystick - with a joystick you can make faster steering >>corrections than you can with a wheel. FF sort of slows >>down the wheel even more. The upside to FF, of course, is >>that you have a better idea of how the car is handling, and >>should be able to better avoid getting out of control. >>Without FF I tend to slide a lot more and generally just >>drive with a loose style. FF makes me drive much more >>smoothly, and my lap times are more consistent too. >>Bottom line, for hotlapping, it will probably be hard to >>match non-FF times with a FF wheel, because in hotlapping >>you are just memorizing a perfect lap and executing it >>from memory. There really isn't a lot of reaction involved. >>For racing, though, FF allows better handling in several >>ways. One, if you are off the normal pace, it's easier >>to corner at the limit. Two, it's easier to take different >>lines through a corner. Both of these things make driving >>in traffic easier. >>Another big plus for FF is that it seems to lessen sensory >>overload while racing. Typically, you have to visually >>assess both how the car is handling and what traffic is >>doing. With FF, I'm not spending as much energy trying >>to evaluate handling because a lot of that information >>is coming through the wheel, and reactions are purely >>reflexive. That allows more attention to be paid to what >>other cars are doing, or what line I want to take. >>-- >>Pat Dotson >>IMPACT Motorsports >>http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html >Never having used FF, in any sim, I'm not entirely sure just how spot >on the FF can be, however I would assume that it's quite close to >being very real indeed. If this is the case I can certainly see how >improvements could be make to lap times for people who use it. >One of the problems I have sometimes found myself having is at Monaco, >for example. Just before the [what has newly been named...] Grand >Hotel corner, there's the sharp left hander, which is more or less a >180* turn. Depending on your setup, some may require to use the full >steering lock, and that's where problems can occur. I've often found >myself going just a tad too quickly, and dispite the full steering >lock, the car continues to drive forward. Now, with force feedback >however, I would be able to _fell_ if the car has handling OK on the >corner _before_ I hit the wall. >At the moment however, I'm screwed! ;-) >What really would be wonderful is if there were an FF wheel which ALSO >had FF pedels, so you could _feel_ when you were braking too harsh, or >accelerating too quickly. Now that would be a GREAT improvement to >GPL! >Griffin, the Slayer

Not in GPL you can't! GPL is the most unforgiving simulator available! ... which gives you more time to react. Try to imagine what would happen if people who drive real cars relied on sound alone to judge when they were braking to hard. Griffin, the Slayer

>As I said, I'll be very surprised if anyone ever beats >the current GPL non-FF records and sets a new world record >with FF enabled. I agree - but it may should slower drivers improve their laptimes, if the implementation is good enough. Joe

>Try to imagine what would happen if people who drive real cars relied >on sound alone to judge when they were braking to hard. I think it's more "seat of the pants" feel that detects lockup in real life. Joe

Works dandy David. :) Just plug both wheels/pedals in and GPL will calibrate them just fine and then you can use whatever axis you want for the various controls. :) > Thanks! Looking forward to your response :) > > I'll try it tonight and let you know how these devices work with the LWFF. :)

Quoted text (7 lines)

>>Try to imagine what would happen if people who drive real cars relied >>on sound alone to judge when they were braking to hard. >I think it's more "seat of the pants" feel that detects lockup in real >life. >Joe

Only in part. I've done an emergency brake in my Ford Mondeo, and you can _feel_ when the car is about to skid. The pressure builds up behind the brake pedal. Griffin, the Slayer

> >Without FF, you can slip and slide to your hearts content > >without paying much of a penalty. With FF, you will pay > >a price for not driving smoothly. > Not in GPL you can't! In GPL I can. React to being screwed? How can you tell that the wheels are either locked up, or spinning, from the pedals? I think you can't tell either. In a real car, there are a lot of other cues telling you what the wheels are doing. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

> >Without FF, you can slip and slide to your hearts content > >without paying much of a penalty. With FF, you will pay > >a price for not driving smoothly. > Not in GPL you can't! >In GPL I can. So, in a race with other cars, you can slide the car from one side to the other, and back again, several times, on the verge of spinning and you won't have much of a time or even a damage penalty? Man, you must be a _much_ better driver than the rest of us! :) Probably. :) Of course a car is completely different to even the most realistic of simulators, and yes there are many other factors involved when harsh braking in a real car. One of the most important is weight, where you can feel the car leaning forward. Griffin, the Slayer

Griffin... Welcome to RAS! To give you a little insight... Yes! Pat *IS* a much better driver than the rest us of us! You won't find anyone here that will contest that point. There really aren't many, if any, people on RAS whose skill or knowledge is such that they can offer Pat insight on the fundamentals of car performance or sim racing. And by the way, and I say this in a well-meaning way, newsgroups are like race tracks. It pays to take it easy and get familiar with the course before you go tearing around at breakneck speed. Jack Rambo www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

>Yes! Pat *IS* a much better driver than the rest us of us! You won't find >anyone here that will contest that point. I might :-) Oh boy... -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

> So, in a race with other cars, you can slide the car from one side to > the other, and back again, several times, on the verge of spinning and > you won't have much of a time or even a damage penalty? The context was hotlapping, not racing. Yes, it's possible to get pretty far sideways without it costing *much* time. Better than some, worse than others :) Right, and little if any information about the traction patch is transmitted through the pedals. A FF pedal would be able to present brake fade and wear, but that's a fairly esoteric thing considering that we barely have good steering FF. IMO, it wouldn't add much to the experience. BTW, I may want to retract my statements about ultimate FF v. non-FF lap times. I just ran a 1:19.8 at Kyalami, which is only a few tenths off my personal best ever. It's not remotely a WR, but it's faster than I was able to do in the same sitting with a non-FF wheel (1:19.9). -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

How about the FF pedals? they would be great...:P

>BTW, I may want to retract my statements about ultimate >FF v. non-FF lap times. I just ran a 1:19.8 at Kyalami, >which is only a few tenths off my personal best ever. >It's not remotely a WR, but it's faster than I was able >to do in the same sitting with a non-FF wheel (1:19.9). I have noticed that the Logitech FF wheel is *WAY* more accurate and precise than my old crappy T2. You can really put the car where you want. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

The part of feedback from the throttle is absolute nonsense, but the feedback from the brake pedal is a fact. I race Formula Ford and besides the feel of the car, the vision (front wheels locking up) you get some feedback from the brake pedal on what your wheels are doing. Combining those three for me is the indicator whether I'm braking on the limit or not. Ofcourse in a roadcar it's somewhat different (no vision for example). In a road car I use mainly my brake pedal and the sound (but that's often somewhat too late and very dependent on the surface).

Quoted text (28 lines)

>> >Without FF, you can slip and slide to your hearts content >> >without paying much of a penalty. With FF, you will pay >> >a price for not driving smoothly. >> Not in GPL you can't! >In GPL I can. >> >If you drive into that turn too fast, even with FF, >> >you'll still be screwed - you'll just know you're >> >screwed sooner! :) >> ... which gives you more time to react. >React to being screwed? >> Try to imagine what would happen if people who drive real cars relied >> on sound alone to judge when they were braking to hard. >How can you tell that the wheels are either >locked up, or spinning, from the pedals? I think you >can't tell either. In a real car, there are a lot >of other cues telling you what the wheels are doing. >-- >Pat Dotson >IMPACT Motorsports >http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

> The part of feedback from the throttle is absolute nonsense, but the > feedback from the brake pedal is a fact. I race Formula Ford and besides the What does the brake pedal do that tells you if the wheels are locking up? -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Well in any not powered braking system the stuttering (don't know whether this is english or not) the almost locking wheel does communicates through the brake pedal. As soon as the wheel nearly locks it starts to "vibrate" that's very much noticable through the brake pedal. >> The part of feedback from the throttle is absolute nonsense, but the >> feedback from the brake pedal is a fact. I race Formula Ford and besides the

Quoted text (7 lines)

>What does the brake pedal do that tells you if >the wheels are locking up? >-- >Pat Dotson >IMPACT Motorsports >http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

> > >Without FF, you can slip and slide to your hearts content > How can you tell that the wheels are either > locked up, or spinning, from the pedals? I think you > can't tell either. In a real car, there are a lot > of other cues telling you what the wheels are doing. My best guess would be that at the point where the wheels are starting to block, and the brake disc is no longer giving friction to the pads, that the force that you feel when pressing the pedal would lessen somewhat. In a computer generated model this would probably be the best way to simulate the feeling of pressing harder and harder on the pedal, getting more and more decelleration, until you reach the point where pressing even more has no effect (and no further decelleration occurs as the wheels are blocking.) IN that case you would have a sensory input of getting to the point of maximal resistance/decelleration, without crossing the line of lessened resistance, a sign that the wheels are starting to block. Of course, as you say, there are other clues when slamming the brakes on a real vehicle (car, motorbike, pushbike). Dolle DOlf --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- ---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

I've been using RAS for a long, long time now. I did however use a different e-mail account in the past to what I am using now. I don't see anybody _tearing around at breakneck speed_. Griffin, the Slayer

> So, in a race with other cars, you can slide the car from one side to > the other, and back again, several times, on the verge of spinning and > you won't have much of a time or even a damage penalty? >The context was hotlapping, not racing. Yes, it's possible to >get pretty far sideways without it costing *much* time. Perhaps I just need a little more practise. ;) Which reminds me of a question I thought up last night. I haven't used FF on a PC, ever, however I have used it hundreds of times (and yes, I do mean _hundreds) in the arcades, with the likes of Sega Rally, Datyona USA, etc. Is the FF style control of those arcad machines much different to how it is on the PC? If it's exactly the same, I doubt I will be spending a couple of hundred pounds on an FF controller, as I don't feel they're quite advanced enough yet. Griffin, the Slayer

On Wed, 19 May 1999 17:26:17 +0200, "Harjan Brand" >The part of feedback from the throttle is absolute nonsense, but the >feedback from the brake pedal is a fact. You're right about that. The only reason I suggested 'both' pedals have some sort of feedback is that it would be difficult to drive with one pedal with FF and not the other... Griffin, the Slayer

Quoted text (9 lines)

> Which reminds me of a question I thought up last night. I haven't used > FF on a PC, ever, however I have used it hundreds of times (and yes, I > do mean _hundreds) in the arcades, with the likes of Sega Rally, > Datyona USA, etc. > Is the FF style control of those arcad machines much different to how > it is on the PC? If it's exactly the same, I doubt I will be spending > a couple of hundred pounds on an FF controller, as I don't feel > they're quite advanced enough yet.

The only arcade machine with FF that impressed me was Hard Drivin'. It's from Atari and came out maybe ten years ago. None of the others seem very good. GPL FF is much much better. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Quoted text (19 lines)

>> Which reminds me of a question I thought up last night. I haven't used >> FF on a PC, ever, however I have used it hundreds of times (and yes, I >> do mean _hundreds) in the arcades, with the likes of Sega Rally, >> Datyona USA, etc. >> Is the FF style control of those arcad machines much different to how >> it is on the PC? If it's exactly the same, I doubt I will be spending >> a couple of hundred pounds on an FF controller, as I don't feel >> they're quite advanced enough yet. >The only arcade machine with FF that impressed me >was Hard Drivin'. It's from Atari and came out >maybe ten years ago. None of the others seem >very good. GPL FF is much much better. >-- >Pat Dotson >IMPACT Motorsports >http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

I remember Hard Driving, but I don't rememeber ever playing a version with FF. Then again, it was a very long time ago. I did enjoy the clutch however... Griffin, the Slayer

>I have noticed that the Logitech FF wheel is *WAY* more >accurate and precise than my old crappy T2. You can really >put the car where you want. I agree (using a USB connection). Joe

I haven't done hundered, but I have done enough arcade racing with my nephews for a comaprision to the PC FF. I believe so yes. The arcade games I played pretty much sucked in the FF department. They may be better than you think. The FF with the Logitech wheel was *WAY* better in F1RS than it was while using the MS FF wheel. And F1RS is really the only reason I am considering FF. The effects while driving around Monaco are just awesome. In the past with my TM T2 I could easily hit walls with not penalty. Now I bounce to the other side of the track and basically wipe out. The end result is that you drive a much cleaner line. You can feel the wheel loosen when the fronts loose grip. IMHO trying to do setups is impossible without this effect. All I can say is that IMHO FF has made F1RS a complete game for me. Add to that the 3D positional sound from the other cars and nothing can compare. I have avoided many wrecks because I "heard" the car next to me. Simply awesome. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com