Let's indeed put our money where our mouth is, and Papy respond to this

Hey thanks. :) Yuppers, this is very true. Not a huge market there. Right, although the Nascar fans may have more interest in older Nascar legends than the modern F1/CART crowd. Easy-to-jump-into modern racing sim? Isn't that like called an arcade game? I'd say go grab SportscarGT for that. :) And it isn't GPL thats the *** to drive, its those damnable yet lovable cars! :) True, I'd still like to see more tracks and be able to race modern openwheelers on some of those tracks. :) Perhaps in the short term. I don't think it will be the last great sim, there just may be a plateau for awhile. :)

I think you're getting carried away with this. The fact that we already purchased GPL,should show Sierra/papyrus,just how sincere we are about great auto sims. But buying copy after copy to prove your point is silly to say the least. Joel Willstein

Let's all start buying as many copies of GPL as we can miss, let's show how much we appreciate a realistic engine. I hate arcade racers and I don't want to be confronted by a growing percentage of arcade racers versus simulations. Papy respond by using the GPL engine for all different simulations, CART, Nascar, 70's F1, 80'F1 and maybe even modern F1. If you bring the same realism to this simulators, we'll keep supporting you guys all the way.

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>Path: >Let's all start buying as many copies of GPL as we can miss, let's show how >much we appreciate a realistic engine. I hate arcade racers and I don't want >to be confronted by a growing percentage of arcade racers versus >simulations. >Papy respond by using the GPL engine for all different simulations, >CART, Nascar, 70's F1, 80'F1 and maybe even modern F1. If you bring the same >realism to this simulators, we'll keep supporting you guys all the way.

Again, see my comments from last week on TOCA 2 realism and arcade racers V Sims. I'm of the opinion we're all too much minorities here for the companies to really give too much of a damn about. Sad, but i fear the truth. I live in hope of dual sim and arcade models, but i doubt i'd be buying NASCAR 3, anyway, GPL engine or not, so it's not of such interest to me. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Here's your chance to buy multiple copies of GPL for what you probably paid for your original single copy (I discovered this from a post here in the newsgroup, so we owe someone else thanks): The Interact! on-line CD-ROM store (http://www.interactcd.com/) has GPL for $14.95. Priority Mail shipping in was only $3.50 or so, and the grand total was less than $19. Quite a deal! I've heard that there are some VERY interesting conversions in the works for GPL, as well as the V1.1 patch which will (reportedly) add Force Feedback effects and variable AI levels and such, so if you haven't bought it yet, now's the time -- and if you want to buy multiple copies to support Papy, you can do so and save yourself some $$ at the same time! -- JB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sports Simulations Forum, Motorsports Display this message in a format suitable for printing/saving. Display all messages in this topic in a format suitable for printing/saving. Location of this message: http://go.compuserve.com/SportSim?SEC=6&MSG=805054 On Tue, 18 May 1999 12:15:04 +0200, "Harjan Brand"

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>Let's all start buying as many copies of GPL as we can miss, let's show how >much we appreciate a realistic engine. I hate arcade racers and I don't want >to be confronted by a growing percentage of arcade racers versus >simulations. >Papy respond by using the GPL engine for all different simulations, >CART, Nascar, 70's F1, 80'F1 and maybe even modern F1. If you bring the same >realism to this simulators, we'll keep supporting you guys all the way.

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>>Path: >>Let's all start buying as many copies of GPL as we can miss, let's show how >>much we appreciate a realistic engine. I hate arcade racers and I don't want >>to be confronted by a growing percentage of arcade racers versus >>simulations. >>Papy respond by using the GPL engine for all different simulations, >>CART, Nascar, 70's F1, 80'F1 and maybe even modern F1. If you bring the same >>realism to this simulators, we'll keep supporting you guys all the way. >Again, see my comments from last week on TOCA 2 realism and arcade racers V >Sims. I'm of the opinion we're all too much minorities here for the companies >to really give too much of a damn about. Sad, but i fear the truth.

Unfortunately, you may be right on this -- I've heard that Viper Racing (a fine sim in its own right, to be sure) has so far outsold GPL. Based on GPL's apparent popularity, this really surprised me. It appears that GPL has not been a money-maker for Papy, which has them concerned, I'm sure.

On Tue, 18 May 1999 12:15:04 +0200, "Harjan Brand"

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>Let's all start buying as many copies of GPL as we can miss, let's show how >much we appreciate a realistic engine. I hate arcade racers and I don't want >to be confronted by a growing percentage of arcade racers versus >simulations. >Papy respond by using the GPL engine for all different simulations, >CART, Nascar, 70's F1, 80'F1 and maybe even modern F1. If you bring the same >realism to this simulators, we'll keep supporting you guys all the way.

If 1,000,000 people buy NFS3 and 1,000 people buy N3 I presume our support will involve paying $1,000 per copy? Cheers! John

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>On Tue, 18 May 1999 12:15:04 +0200, "Harjan Brand" >>Let's all start buying as many copies of GPL as we can miss, let's show how >>much we appreciate a realistic engine. I hate arcade racers and I don't want >>to be confronted by a growing percentage of arcade racers versus >>simulations. >>Papy respond by using the GPL engine for all different simulations, >>CART, Nascar, 70's F1, 80'F1 and maybe even modern F1. If you bring the same >>realism to this simulators, we'll keep supporting you guys all the way. >If 1,000,000 people buy NFS3 and 1,000 people buy N3 I presume our >support will involve paying $1,000 per copy?

If NFS3 costs $1,then you're right. Remco

Well unfortunately I think GPL's "failure" has as much to do with its genre as it not really having an "Arcade" setting. You can look at it two ways; either GPL zapped itself by being very realistic and therefore excluding a large portion of perhaps those that might have bought it, except that large portion was also further reduced by the fact that its a reproduction of 1967 F1 racing....or you can look at it just in the reverse manner. Personally I think those that are going to buy a 1967 F1 racing game of any stripe is a small pool of customers indeed, then you further shrink it by the high quality racing engine and you get lukewarm sales. Personally I think that a modern day CART/F1/NASCAR/whatever sim would have sold much better even given the more complex driving engine.

Chris... I think you probably hit it on the head... no you DID hit it on the head. Think about the people that go to watch a historic race, be it at Road America in the US, or who go to Goodwood in the UK... these are the people who will have an interest in GPL. The fans of Nascar, or even modern F1, probably have little interest in "museum pieces." They are *history* in their minds... so racing "old" cars has little appeal to many of the racing masses. When you combine this relatively low level of historical interest with rumors (and fairly correct ones) that GPL is a b*tch to drive, folks who are looking for an easy-to-jump-into modern racing sim will just stay away. Those who love GPL are UTTERLY devoted to it... and reap the rewards of the best racing sim ever made. I too think it's a mistake to blame the physics engine on lack of sales, tho it maybe didn't help any in the mass market. I think it's a combination of things mentioned above... too bad because it's the best there ever was, and unfortunately, could be the best there ever will be if all of these swirling rumors are to be believed. --Dave

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>> Unfortunately, you may be right on this -- I've heard that Viper >> Racing (a fine sim in its own right, to be sure) has so far outsold >> GPL. Based on GPL's apparent popularity, this really surprised me. >> It appears that GPL has not been a money-maker for Papy, which has >> them concerned, I'm sure. >Well unfortunately I think GPL's "failure" has as much to do with its genre >as it not really having an "Arcade" setting. You can look at it two ways; >either GPL zapped itself by being very realistic and therefore excluding a >large portion of perhaps those that might have bought it, except that large >portion was also further reduced by the fact that its a reproduction of

1967 >F1 racing....or you can look at it just in the reverse manner. Personally I >think those that are going to buy a 1967 F1 racing game of any stripe is a >small pool of customers indeed, then you further shrink it by the high >quality racing engine and you get lukewarm sales. Personally I think that a >modern day CART/F1/NASCAR/whatever sim would have sold much better even >given the more complex driving engine.

To add to that... (physics engine is not the reason....) What percentage of Sim buyers download the demo to get the feel of the physics engine? I'd take a guess that the biggest portion of Sim drivers are the ones that see a racing game on the shelf and buy it or not buy it because of what's on the box. The only reason to not buy it because of the physics engine is *only* if you tried the demo first. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Member of R.O.R. 1999 http://www.pivot.net/~marknjess/ror.html ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music mikeba.vcf < 1K Download

>>Let's all start buying as many copies of GPL as we can miss, let's show how

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>>much we appreciate a realistic engine. I hate arcade racers and I don't >want >>to be confronted by a growing percentage of arcade racers versus >>simulations. >>Papy respond by using the GPL engine for all different simulations, >>CART, Nascar, 70's F1, 80'F1 and maybe even modern F1. If you bring the >same >>realism to this simulators, we'll keep supporting you guys all the way. > I think you're getting carried away with this. The fact that we

already >purchased GPL,should show Sierra/papyrus,just how sincere we are about great >auto sims. But buying copy after copy to prove your point is silly to say >the least. no, no it's not. apparently, sierra/papy realized smaller than anticipated revenues from GPL. just for fun, imagine if they doubled their take on the program. the sales figures would show directly how many copies of GPL were sold. if people bought it, they would make more. simple economics. i, for one, would've paid over $200 for GPL if forced to. and i would gladly fork over that amount now if the end result was a equally stunning NASCAR simulation. unfortunately, my $200 alone would not sway the market. we need large numbers. heck, it might even get the point across moreso if we sent $ to the papy crew directly! this type of act should not be silnet, however. or even "silent". (oops). papy would have to know what the intentions were to have the desired impact. how about a show of hands from those who would support such an act. WHO WOULD HEREBY PLEDGE TO EITHER BUY ANOTHER COPY OF GPL OR MAKE AN OUTRIGHT DONATION TO THE PAPY TEAM AS FUEL FOR THE CREATIVE FIRES? 1. jay wolfe 2. _____________

I know a lot of people who liked the idea of GPL but after playing it decided against buying it because it was too hard. Personally I like the difficulty on occasions but sometimes I'd like to race against the drivers in the game at, say, the Nurburgring without spending all my time facing the wrong way. What GPL was missing was a beginners mode that helped you enough so even a total newbie could stay on track. All the reviews said "Great simulation, but where's the game?" and to be honest I have to agree. The number of people who want to spend dozens of hours learning to drive a specific car at a specific track are minimal in this world and sales reflect it. If NASCAR 3 goes the same way then it will also suffer. Perhaps, as Zonkie said, Papyrus need to create an arcade mode as well as a heavy simulation mode. Superbikes did it very well, why can't other games? M

On Tue, 18 May 1999 08:26:36 -0500, "Chris Schletter" >Personally I think that a >modern day CART/F1/NASCAR/whatever sim would have sold much better even >given the more complex driving engine. More than likely, however sales are not the final judge - profits are the ultimate target. Would those "increased sales" have been sufficient to pay however many tens of millions Bernie requires for an F1 license these days?! :-) Cheers! John

Veiled barb or arithmetical error? :-) Cheers! John

>the ultimate target. Would those "increased sales" have been >sufficient to pay however many tens of millions Bernie requires for an >F1 license these days?! :-) >Cheers! >John While I'm not in the know, I can ASSURE you that with budgets in the single digit millions even for blockbusters, NOBODY's gonna pay "tens of millions" for ANY license. The ENTIRE game won't have a budget that big. Gunner

On Tue, 18 May 1999 19:32:26 -0400, "Joel Willstein" > I think you're getting carried away with this. The fact that we already >purchased GPL,should show Sierra/papyrus,just how sincere we are about great >auto sims. But buying copy after copy to prove your point is silly to say >the least. >Joel Willstein Untrue: Sierra has NO idea how many DIFFERENT people bought GPL (even if it's 250 people buying 2 copies each); just that 500 copies got sold. Gunner

Bought a second copy Tuesday. Gave it to a friend.

>While I'm not in the know, I can ASSURE you that with budgets in the >single digit millions even for blockbusters, NOBODY's gonna pay "tens >of millions" for ANY license. The ENTIRE game won't have a budget >that big. I'm not even slightly ASSURED - having worked with several companies and a couple of F1 licenses I know what it actually costs... Cheers! John

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>>While I'm not in the know, I can ASSURE you that with budgets in the >>single digit millions even for blockbusters, NOBODY's gonna pay "tens >>of millions" for ANY license. The ENTIRE game won't have a budget >>that big. >I'm not even slightly ASSURED - having worked with several companies >and a couple of F1 licenses I know what it actually costs... >Cheers! >John

While they may attempt to CHARGE $10M for a license, I can't imagine ANY game with a budget large enough to support that just for the LICENSE (hell, that'd be about 5 times the amount of the REST of the entire process!); let alone a true racing "sim" (which has agruably already been proven to have too small a customer base to support such an expenditure). Gunner

Remember earlier discussions about people who couldn't afford to upgrade their video cards just to *play* GPL? Even though I've bought every Papyrus title including Indy500, and paid $54.xx for GPL, I'm not ABOUT to pay $200 for a game... I just don't have that kind of money to throw away. I'd sign a petition, though... :-) __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> While they may attempt to CHARGE $10M for a license, I can't >imagine ANY game with a budget large enough to support that just for >the LICENSE (hell, that'd be about 5 times the amount of the REST of >the entire process!); let alone a true racing "sim" (which has >agruably already been proven to have too small a customer base to >support such an expenditure). Games can and have supported this in the past - it may explain why the games themselves have obviously had minimal time and effort "lavished" on the actual development or quality, and are punted out on as many formats as possible. It's about the only way to make money, and a virtual guarantee that we're unlikely to see an all out "sim" F1 title. Cheers! John

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>>no, no it's not. apparently, sierra/papy realized smaller than anticipated >>revenues from GPL. just for fun, imagine if they doubled their take on the >>program. the sales figures would show directly how many copies of GPL were >>sold. if people bought it, they would make more. simple economics. i, for >>one, would've paid over $200 for GPL if forced to. and i would gladly fork >>over that amount now if the end result was a equally stunning NASCAR >>simulation. unfortunately, my $200 alone would not sway the market. we

need >>large numbers. heck, it might even get the point across moreso if we sent $ >>to the papy crew directly! this type of act should not be silnet, however. >>or even "silent". (oops). papy would have to know what the intentions were >>to have the desired impact. how about a show of hands from those who would >>support such an act. >Remember earlier discussions about people who couldn't afford to upgrade their >video cards just to *play* GPL? Even though I've bought every Papyrus title >including Indy500, and paid $54.xx for GPL, I'm not ABOUT to pay $200 for a >game... I just don't have that kind of money to throw away. >I'd sign a petition, though... :-) well, the point is completely spunked. as of right now, there were a total of...ONE (me) people that would volunteer to either send them some cash or buy another copy of GPL to show support. i guess that people really don't want it all that bad, eh?

No, you DID have other support, and you made people think, so it's not ALL bad... :) I've been trying to get SEVERAL friends to buy a copy. At least I'd be able to beat SOMEBODY. Problem is... Their computer won't HANDLE it - sound familiar? If the people I know had strong enough systems, I could have sold at least 10 more copies. I would guess that MOST of us know 5-10 people who'd be interested...whose systems won't run GPL I would show my support by encouraging others to purchase the game, and of course I'd buy the new game myself - if my system could even RUN it... :( __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> total of...ONE (me) people that would volunteer to either send them > some cash or buy another copy of GPL Didn't reply because I'd already said somewhere else that I already have a second copy. It's not a popular concept though, I've raised it before. Andrew McP