I've heard (though not through any official channels) that MS is
working on a USB version of their FF wheel. And that would be an
exceptionally Good Thing. It seems that clocking FF commands out
through the MIDI lines is rather slow. These are the approximate
timings I've measured on my Win95 PII-400 for issuing our force
commands to three different wheels (your mileage may vary):
3,500,000 cycles - Thrustmaster Force GT (USB)
1,500,000 cycles - Microsoft Sidewinder FF wheel (MIDI/game port)
55,000 cycles - Logitech Wingman Formula Force (serial)
Which translates to a 32% (!?!?!?!?!), 13.5% (!!), and 0.5% (ahhhh...)
CPU hit.
Randy
Notable threadRandy Cassidy's force feedback timing tests across wheels
Papyrus's Randy Cassidy shared measurements of how long it took to issue force feedback commands on various wheels, noting that the Microsoft FF wheel's MIDI gameport link was slow and a USB version would help. He said the USB Thrustmaster Force GT was slowest but cautioned against blaming USB itself, and he could not test the Logitech in USB mode under Win95 or get the ACT Labs wheel recognised. Pat Dotson suggested an IRQ conflict for the ACT Labs wheel.
With Randy Cassidy (Papyrus)
hardware: wheels/pedalsGrand Prix Legends
Automated summary.
I have the only Gameport-->USB adapter that MS offers, which was made
for one of their gamepads or jsticks I believe. It Ys off into a
seriel connector for some functions (similar to the CH FF Pro Sticks
cable). A MS rep was kind enough to send me one to try with the FF
Wheel a while back. It doesn't work at all. Its feasible that MS could
write a driver to get the axis functions, but....
G. Patricks
I wonder how much of that is from the port and how much is from the wheel
itself?
Could you share your thoughts on this a bit more. Now that GPL will have
ff I will succumb.
John Moore
Quoted text (22 lines)
> > I have an MS FF wheel connected through my Turtle Beach Montego s/c, > but i > > have heard talk of a serial to USB converter. > > Can anyone tell me if i will get any benefit from this, (If i can > find and > > buy one) for playing GPL on and offline??. > I've heard (though not through any official channels) that MS is > working on a USB version of their FF wheel. And that would be an > exceptionally Good Thing. It seems that clocking FF commands out > through the MIDI lines is rather slow. These are the approximate > timings I've measured on my Win95 PII-400 for issuing our force > commands to three different wheels (your mileage may vary): > 3,500,000 cycles - Thrustmaster Force GT (USB) > 1,500,000 cycles - Microsoft Sidewinder FF wheel (MIDI/game port) > 55,000 cycles - Logitech Wingman Formula Force (serial) > Which translates to a 32% (!?!?!?!?!), 13.5% (!!), and 0.5% (ahhhh...) > CPU hit. > RandyQuoted text (8 lines)
>I've heard (though not through any official channels) that MS is >working on a USB version of their FF wheel. And that would be an >exceptionally Good Thing. It seems that clocking FF commands out >through the MIDI lines is rather slow. These are the approximate >timings I've measured on my Win95 PII-400 for issuing our force >commands to three different wheels (your mileage may vary): >3,500,000 cycles - Thrustmaster Force GT (USB)From what I could tell, when you keep the wheel and pedals stationary,
it takes about 550,000 cycles to issue the force commands, and while
moving either the wheel or pedals, it jumps to about 1,500,000 cycles
to issue the force commands. This is how much time it takes to
actually call the functions we use to send the force commands. It does
not include the amount of time it takes to compute what forces we want
to apply, or the time it takes to read the wheel/pedal positions.
Randy
> >3,500,000 cycles - Thrustmaster Force GT (USB)
> *****
> >1,500,000 cycles - Microsoft Sidewinder FF wheel (MIDI/game port)
> > 55,000 cycles - Logitech Wingman Formula Force (serial)
> Uh oh.. looks like USB is the slowest one of these?
Well, the Thrustmaster Force GT (USB) is the slowest of these.
Concluding that USB is the cause is a giant leap into the abyss.
Quite sure.
I hadn't been able to find that little doodad, but someone just dropped
one off, so I'll try it out and letcha know.
Randy
Please do. :)
>> > And how about clocking with the Logitech in serial and then in USB.
>> I hadn't been able to find that little doodad, but someone just dropped
>> one off, so I'll try it out and letcha know.
>Please do. :)
Ditto, I'm also eager to hear these results.
Joe
do you have any info on the actlabs force rs wheel?
tim
Quoted text (7 lines)
> These are the approximate > timings I've measured on my Win95 PII-400 for issuing our force > commands to three different wheels (your mileage may vary): > 3,500,000 cycles - Thrustmaster Force GT (USB) > 1,500,000 cycles - Microsoft Sidewinder FF wheel (MIDI/game port) > 55,000 cycles - Logitech Wingman Formula Force (serial)No. I can't get my machine to recognize the Act Labs wheel.
Randy
Well, apparently you can't use the Logitech in USB mode with Win95,
even if you have the version of Win95 that supports USB. I don't plan
on upgrading my machine to Win98 just to try this out. If I find a
Win98 machine around that has what I need, I'll get back to y'all.
Randy
>Well, apparently you can't use the Logitech in USB mode with Win95,
>even if you have the version of Win95 that supports USB. I don't plan
>on upgrading my machine to Win98 just to try this out. If I find a
>Win98 machine around that has what I need, I'll get back to y'all.
Randy,
Is there a simple [small] EXE program that can do this test for you?
Or is it part of GPL debugging code or something? I have Win98 and a
Logitech FF connected with USB, on a P2 300. I also have a cable
modem, so if the test program is less than 5 MB feel free to email it
too me and I'll run it for you (remove NOSPAM from my email address).
Joe
>> I have an MS FF wheel connected through my Turtle Beach Montego s/c, but i
>> have heard talk of a serial to USB converter.
>> Can anyone tell me if i will get any benefit from this, (If i can find and
>> buy one) for playing GPL on and offline??.
>Not likely... the MS Force Feedback devices get their force information via the
>soundcard gameport's MIDI lines. They pretty much need to be plugged into the
>gameport of a soundcard to function at all.
When I tried the MS FF wheel 6 months ago I called MS tech support.
They will send a converter for the serial port. At least they offered to
send me one 6 months ago. However, you may not be able to do
anything with USB even if you do get an Serial port to USB adapter
(such a device comes with the Logitech FF wheel) until MS writes an
appropriate joystick driver for USB.
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com
>Well, the Thrustmaster Force GT (USB) is the slowest of these.
>Concluding that USB is the cause is a giant leap into the abyss.
I would have concluded that the TM wheel blows chunks :-)
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com
Advice so nice, it's printed twice.
Quoted text (30 lines)
> Randy, > Most likely, you have a conflict between the Force > RS and some other device using a com port. > The Force RS can't share an IRQ with any other > device. You need to have it connected to one > of the following two settings: > COM1 - IRQ 4 - Address 03F8 > COM2 - IRQ 3 - Address 02F8 > As long as nothing else is sharing the com > port, the wheel should be recognized without > a problem. > -- > Pat Dotson > > > do you have any info on the actlabs force rs wheel? > > No. I can't get my machine to recognize the Act Labs wheel. > > RandyI have an MS FF wheel connected through my Turtle Beach Montego s/c, but i
have heard talk of a serial to USB converter.
Can anyone tell me if i will get any benefit from this, (If i can find and
buy one) for playing GPL on and offline??.
If the answer to my question is yes! then where might i find such a beast. I
live in the UK, but have no problems ordering one from abroad if it helps my
cause...........
Thanx in advance
Dave
> I have an MS FF wheel connected through my Turtle Beach Montego s/c, but i
> have heard talk of a serial to USB converter.
> Can anyone tell me if i will get any benefit from this, (If i can find and
> buy one) for playing GPL on and offline??.
Not likely... the MS Force Feedback devices get their force information via the
soundcard gameport's MIDI lines. They pretty much need to be plugged into the
gameport of a soundcard to function at all.
Trips
D. Bell on VROC
Randy,
Most likely, you have a conflict between the Force
RS and some other device using a com port.
The Force RS can't share an IRQ with any other
device. You need to have it connected to one
of the following two settings:
COM1 - IRQ 4 - Address 03F8
COM2 - IRQ 3 - Address 02F8
As long as nothing else is sharing the com
port, the wheel should be recognized without
a problem.
--
Pat Dotson
> > do you have any info on the actlabs force rs wheel?
> No. I can't get my machine to recognize the Act Labs wheel.
> Randy
And twice more just for fun! :)
I was trying to copy Randy's email address
on this, but my mail server wasn't correctly
configured. Every time I tried to resend
it to email, it was posted to the newsgroup
again.
Sorry.
--
Pat Dotson
> >Well, apparently you can't use the Logitech in USB mode with Win95,
> >even if you have the version of Win95 that supports USB. I don't plan
> >on upgrading my machine to Win98 just to try this out. If I find a
> >Win98 machine around that has what I need, I'll get back to y'all.
> Randy,
> Is there a simple [small] EXE program that can do this test for you?
It's part of Logitech's drivers, which I assume you already have. The
installation guide for the wheel says to use the USB adapter with
Win98, but to plug the wheel into the serial port when using Win95. I
tried the USB adapter, but even though I'm using the version of Win95
that has USB support, the Logitech drivers told me they couldn't find
the wheel. When I plugged it into the serial port, they found it just
fine.
Randy
I don't have a Logitech Wheel so I don't know if this works but they have a
patch thats supposed to allow it to work with win 95
http://www.wingmanteam.com/Latest_Software/Win_95_Patch/win_95_patch.htm
Quoted text (19 lines)
> > >Well, apparently you can't use the Logitech in USB mode with Win95, > > >even if you have the version of Win95 that supports USB. I don't > plan > > >on upgrading my machine to Win98 just to try this out. If I find a > > >Win98 machine around that has what I need, I'll get back to y'all. > > Randy, > > Is there a simple [small] EXE program that can do this test for you? > It's part of Logitech's drivers, which I assume you already have. The > installation guide for the wheel says to use the USB adapter with > Win98, but to plug the wheel into the serial port when using Win95. I > tried the USB adapter, but even though I'm using the version of Win95 > that has USB support, the Logitech drivers told me they couldn't find > the wheel. When I plugged it into the serial port, they found it just > fine. > Randy>It's part of Logitech's drivers, which I assume you already have.
Thanks, Randy. I looked through the game device panel, the profiler,
and the Logitech software directory but couldn't find a program to do
this timing test. Do you remember where it is? Sorry to keep bothering
you about this, I'm sure you have your hands full with the GPL patch,
but I'm very curious to see if there's any difference between USB and
serial in this matter.
Joe
> >It's part of Logitech's drivers, which I assume you already have.
> Thanks, Randy. I looked through the game device panel, the profiler,
> and the Logitech software directory but couldn't find a program to do
> this timing test. Do you remember where it is?
Oh, sorry, Joe. I thought you were asking how I determined that I
couldn't use the Logitech wheel in USB mode on my Win95 machine. I
performed the timings by putting some special code into GPL to time
calls we make to the DirectInput force functions that we use. As I
said, with the Logitech wheel in serial mode, it takes about 50,000
machine cycles on my PII-400 each time we make these calls. This
special code is compiled away in the release versions of the game.
Randy
>Oh, sorry, Joe. I thought you were asking how I determined that I
>couldn't use the Logitech wheel in USB mode on my Win95 machine. I
>performed the timings by putting some special code into GPL to time
>calls we make to the DirectInput force functions that we use. As I
>said, with the Logitech wheel in serial mode, it takes about 50,000
>machine cycles on my PII-400 each time we make these calls.
Oh, I see. Well, I haven't noticed any frame-rate hits with my USB
Logitech wheel when force is turned on, so I imagine it's CPU usgae is
in a similar range.
Joe
