Braking techniques.

Rapidly pumping the brakes, almost a twitching action of you're brake foot will produce the shortest braking distance. Doug Straley

Wrong. As a race driving instructor that's all I have to say.

D'oh! :-) In areas of heavy braking, that's what I do, too... -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 ________________________________________________________________________________ "Sorry, my eyes were on screensaver" (Calvin & Hobbes)

> > Rapidly pumping the brakes, almost a twitching action of you're brake foot will > > produce the shortest braking distance. > >Wrong. As a race driving instructor that's all I have to say. > In areas of heavy braking, that's what I do, too... I will push the pedal slightly past the point where the wheels start to slide, then modulate the pedal one or two times to get minimal tire squeal. Once I've found the sweet spot, I try to maintain it as smoothly as possible without much more pedal movement. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

One difficult thing with Viper Racing is to try to keep the car straight when braking. The same thing can be said somehow with SCGT, under heavy braking. The best example is at the end of the long, long straight in Viper Racing at Dundas (well the city track). It's a tricky corner. Your going at 170+mph, and you need to brake hard for a 60mph corner. Normally if you brake too hard you will loose it. Sometimes applying a little throttle (let's say 10%input) will help you control your braking zone line, since it will put more weight on the rear of the car (no sudden weight shifting). This way you can decide if you want a slight oversteering if you brake too late or a little push in the same situation. It will help you brake harder, and brake in a smaller time. The same applies with GPL, per example into Tarzan at Zandvoort or Curva Di Lesmo at Monza. Of course, I might be wrong :) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

That's what I meant - Only you put it much better :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 ________________________________________________________________________________ "Sorry, my eyes were on screensaver" (Calvin & Hobbes)

And the prize goes to Pat!JM

>> Rapidly pumping the brakes, almost a twitching action of you're brake foot will >> produce the shortest braking distance. >Wrong. As a race driving instructor that's all I have to say. Cool, we have race driving instructors for race sims now :-)

I have a TM super sport (with the paddles).. I have found that in SCGT it is much easier to use the left paddle for braking than the brake pedal. Part is due to comfort of the foot, but most because I'm able to "tap" the brakes and have much more control than with the pedal. I would much rather use the pedal as in real life, mabye will learn soon. Mikey Team Jesus Racing http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7041 http://members.tripod.com/~team_jesus/

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> > > Rapidly pumping the brakes, almost a twitching action of you're brake foot will > > > produce the shortest braking distance. > > >Wrong. As a race driving instructor that's all I have to say. > > In areas of heavy braking, that's what I do, too... > I will push the pedal slightly past the point where the wheels > start to slide, then modulate the pedal one or two times to > get minimal tire squeal. Once I've found the sweet spot, > I try to maintain it as smoothly as possible without much > more pedal movement. > -- > Pat Dotson > IMPACT Motorsports > http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

writes: Great! I need all the help I can GET... :) __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

:> Rapidly pumping the brakes, almost a twitching action of you're brake foot will :> produce the shortest braking distance. :> : Wrong. As a race driving instructor that's all I have to say. Hmm... you should probably write and tell Michael Schumacher since he's been using this technique for years. (S'true - watch him in slo' mo' round any heavy braking area and you'll see occasional tyre smoke as the tyres slightly lock and unlock). -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

% :> Rapidly pumping the brakes, almost a twitching action of you're brake foot will % :> produce the shortest braking distance. % :> % : Wrong. As a race driving instructor that's all I have to say. % Hmm... you should probably write and tell Michael Schumacher since % he's been using this technique for years. (S'true - watch him in slo' % mo' round any heavy braking area and you'll see occasional tyre smoke as % the tyres slightly lock and unlock). This is not necessarily "rapidly pumping the brakes". Under heavy braking one will normally have to apply more brake than under normal braking. And in order to pull off heavy braking one usually will need to be near the point of locking the wheels. Get to the point of locking the wheels, let up on the brakes enough to get the wheels to turn. As the car continues to slow, one can then apply more brake. Again under heavy braking you are trying to get the maximum amount of braking which is on the border of locking the wheels. To find the border, you will often have to cross it and then retreat. Rapidly pumping the brakes is a "spastic" and uncontrolled method of braking. It will cause you to cross the border and when you retreat you move too far away from the border. What one really wants to do is "touch" the border and stay at that point (but the border is a moving target, as it moves the slower you get). In other words, explore to find the border (locking of the brakes) and retreat just enough to be "in touch" with the border. As the car slows, the border will be moving, therefore you are always searching for the border. Rapidly pumping the brake is like a ***shoot. If you roll the dice often enough, you may just find the border, but once you find it you loose it with the next roll of the dice. And then you have to start the ***shoot all over again. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Richard... Momentary wheel locking, when braking at the limit, is generally caused by surface irregularities or sudden weight transfer that momentarily reduce vertical wheel loading. When the locked wheel regains its full vertical load, the frictional force at the contact patch increases, causing the wheel to spin once again. Jack Rambo www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

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> :> Rapidly pumping the brakes, almost a twitching action of you're brake foot will > :> produce the shortest braking distance. > :> > : Wrong. As a race driving instructor that's all I have to say. > Hmm... you should probably write and tell Michael Schumacher since > he's been using this technique for years. (S'true - watch him in slo' > mo' round any heavy braking area and you'll see occasional tyre smoke as > the tyres slightly lock and unlock).

I doubt if it's really possible to ascertain exactly what Shumacher is doing with his brake foot just by watching the tire smoke. I also seriously doubt that he "rapidly pumps the brakes, almost a twitching motion". Trips

: % :> Rapidly pumping the brakes, almost a twitching action of you're brake foot will : % :> produce the shortest braking distance. : % :> : % : Wrong. As a race driving instructor that's all I have to say. : % Hmm... you should probably write and tell Michael Schumacher since : % he's been using this technique for years. (S'true - watch him in slo' : % mo' round any heavy braking area and you'll see occasional tyre smoke as : % the tyres slightly lock and unlock). : This is not necessarily "rapidly pumping the brakes". Under heavy : braking one will normally have to apply more brake than under normal : braking. And in order to pull off heavy braking one usually will need : to be near the point of locking the wheels. Get to the point of locking : the wheels, let up on the brakes enough to get the wheels to turn. As : the car continues to slow, one can then apply more brake. Again under : heavy braking you are trying to get the maximum amount of braking which : is on the border of locking the wheels. To find the border, you will : often have to cross it and then retreat. Sure - I guess it depends on what you define as rapidly... -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

: Richard... : Momentary wheel locking, when braking at the limit, is generally caused by : surface irregularities or sudden weight transfer that momentarily reduce : vertical wheel loading. When the locked wheel regains its full vertical : load, the frictional force at the contact patch increases, causing the wheel : to spin once again. Were that the case, it would be happening to all the drivers. I'm sure that does occur - but watch Schumi round a corner compared to the other drivers. Perhaps it's not the "rapid pumping of the brakes" that the poster was talking about - but one of the best drivers out there today is certainly employing the technique of lock-up and release. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Not necessarily. The closer the driver is to the limit of adhesion, the smaller the required change in vertical loading to produce wheel locking. If Schumacher is closer to the limit of adhesion than others (hardly inconceivable :) ), than he's more likely to produce momentary wheel locking. And remember that cornering forces generated at the contact patch reduce the amount of braking force available. So if he's also cornering more aggressively under braking, the probability of momentary wheel lock is further increased. Jack Rambo www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

What you are describing is trail braking, of a sort, keeping the suspension alive. In a corner this is a good way to keep the handling where you want it and stay on the line you need. However, if you are doing this under straight line braking, what is really happening is an unbalance in your front/rear braking setup. The only way you will not brake in a straight line is if you are beginning to turn, or if you are locking one or more wheels. In SCGT, the default brake setting seems to favor a loose entry to turns and allows for a quick tap to kick the rear end out a bit. If you mash the pedal for any length of time first the rear locks, then if you brake any harder all four lock. You can get no feel for braking pressure from the sim pedal, so you do have to "hunt for the sweet spot" in the pedal travel. By keeping on the throttle during straight line braking you are lengthening your braking zone, using up more brake than you need to, and having to work harder to get through the corner. This applies no matter which of the more realistic sims you are using. --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- ---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

% Sure - I guess it depends on what you define as rapidly... Okay, let's say "controlled" rapidly pumping the brakes. However, the phrase "pumping" doesn't necessarily bring to mind "control". Rapidly modulating the brakes sounds more controlled than rapidly pumping. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On 20 May 1999 00:43:31 GMT in rec.autos.simulators the following was written: Any race-driving instruct who has only "wrong" to say on the subject of braking techniques would appear to be in the "wrong" job. Being a race-driving instructor is not a reason for people to believe what is said, talking sense is the path to that. Cheers! John

That's not "rapidly punping your foot on the brake", that's simply a standard technique for anyone aspiring to slow down in as short a distance as possible. Consider that there is a "perfect" brake position for a given grip level, one which makes maximum use of the grip you have available (disregard cornering for now, consider only straight line braking). The available grip naturally decreases as you slow down, therefore your "perfect" brake position will gradually ease off. If you "rapidly pump" the brakes you will constantly exceed (lock up) the grip level, wasting it, then you will under-utilise the available grip in coming off the brakes - a very INefficient method of braking. Consider then too that you are adversely affecting not only the weight transfer but the airflow also by pitching the car up and own - then add corner entry into the mix and you've got a massive spin waiting to happen. Michael's "puff of smoke" comes from utilising the brakes better than the majority of other drivers, remaining closer to that "perfect" point just short of lock up. Why he tends to smoke a front tyre more than most is due to his cornering style, since he unloads the inside front more rapidly than other drivers during the entry phase, resulting in it locking up slightly on entry. Cheers! John

>What you are describing is trail braking, of a sort, keeping the >suspension alive. In a corner this is a good way to keep the handling >where you want it and stay on the line you need. However, if you are >doing this under straight line braking, what is really happening is an >unbalance in your front/rear braking setup. Trail braking is the art of fully utilising the friction circle concept, smoothly trading off braking grip for cornering grip during the slow down and entry phase. It doesn't encompass the "on-off" phenomenon under discussion here except insofar as that could happen while trail braking. Cheers! John

And I agree on this point. I'm a professionally qualified road driving instructor. We always use prise where due and constructive criticism where necessary. I'm Not having a go here, just stressing that the statement should have been qualified by an explanation. Regards Mark

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>On 20 May 1999 00:43:31 GMT in rec.autos.simulators the following was >written: >>>>Wrong. As a race driving instructor that's all I have to say. >Any race-driving instruct who has only "wrong" to say on the subject >of braking techniques would appear to be in the "wrong" job. Being a >race-driving instructor is not a reason for people to believe what is >said, talking sense is the path to that. >Cheers! >John