GPL about to come off the shelf...

I can see the diff from 33 to 36 fps!!!!!1 REALLY... I can detect the diff when for some reason my display drops from 36fps solid.. to 33fps solid!!!!!!! WIERD Any answers.. .. I've tried heaps.. James Pickard, Melbourne, AUSTRALIA

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> x-no-archive: yes > Hi chaps, > I have GPL stored on the shelf, but should FF arrive in the patch, then I may > well re-install it. > I have a couple of questions: > The first is about framerate...people are talking about rates in the thirties! > Why would you set it that high? Your eyes can only detect up to about 20, so > dropping the frame rate would allow more graphics/cars/stuff wouldn't it? I know > frame rate was an issue in the GP1/2 days, but now most machines can run most > sims at 20 or above. > The other question is about hardware...what is the minimum spec required to run > GPL with everything on? > Thanks. > R.

Please don't start this thread again... Eric

rrevved schrieb:

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> On Mon, 17 May 1999 11:19:11 +0100, > >people are talking about rates in the thirties! > >Why would you set it that high? Your eyes can only detect up to about 20, so > >dropping the frame rate would allow more graphics/cars/stuff wouldn't it? > Wrong, Richard. If you believe that, then set your monitor for > a 60hz or lower refresh rate. See if you can detect the difference > from the normal setting. > Also, framerate has a lot more to do with 'feel' than vision. > If your car is stuttering around the track at 20fps, you will > simply -not- be able to control it as well as you would at 36fps.

The old '24 Frames is enough' argument... Rrevved is right, the higher the fps, the more fluid the motion seems. The fact that we use 24/25 fps in movies (except IMAX which runs, I think, at 60fps) and for TV Broadcasting is linked to the costs of film material. A framerate of 24 (or 25 depending where you live) pictures per seconds established itself as standard, because it fullfilled 2 things : - it is fast enough to fake a motion for most people - it doesn't use too much expensive film material. (you need nearly 3 times more film if you film at 60fps instead of 24) Additionally, A movie camera capable of sustaining 60fps would itself have been quite expensive and difficult to build (at least in the 30's) My personal threshold lies somewhere between 60 and 80 fps, depending on how tired I am, and this probably is different for everybody, but don't fool yourself in believing 20 fps to be the panultimum of visual pleasure. bye, Sammy

Movie's are shot at 24fps PAL is 25fps NTSC is 30fps. Z. :) Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Actually 29.97fps with the baddest dropframe issues you will EVER see (hopefully) on this planet. Skipping a frame every hour or so. :) Ruud van Gaal MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery

With 36 fps, the car responds to your control 36 times/second. With 20 fps, the car responds only 20 times/second. (36-20)/36=0.444, which means you get 44,4% less control and thus lose a lot of time. Perhaps it can't be seen (though 20->36 is clearly visible try it), but it can sure be felt!

Status: N I'd be very surpised to learn that the Simulation rate was tied to frame rate. I'd expect it to be constant. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

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>On Mon, 17 May 1999 14:56:35 GMT, >>Status: N >>>>The first is about framerate...people are talking about rates in the > thirties! >>>>Why would you set it that high? Your eyes can only detect up to about 20, so >>>>dropping the frame rate would allow more graphics/cars/stuff wouldn't it? I >>> know >>>>frame rate was an issue in the GP1/2 days, but now most machines can run > most >>>>sims at 20 or above. >>>With 36 fps, the car responds to your control 36 times/second. >>>With 20 fps, the car responds only 20 times/second. >>I'd be very surpised to learn that the Simulation rate was tied to frame rate. >>I'd expect it to be constant. >If you had a very slow system and GPL ran at 1 fps, would you be >surprised to find that the sim didn't respond to your input as >well as a person who could run it at 36fps? >Its the same thing, from 20 - 36fps. >It has nothing to do with 'simulation rate tied to framerate'.

That's not quite what the person is saying above- he's saying that GPl responds to your commands at a rate tied to frame rate- that's not true, at least as i understand it. Therefore, even if it was runnign at 1fps, it will still respond at the same rate to input as anyone elses pc. What is different is your response to the visual information about track poisiton, car orientation, etc. As for the frame rate question, is there a physical limit on what is useful? All i've ever seen is heresy, and nothing of a respectable source saying what is a real limit. What i am inclinded to believe, especialy in the case of GPL and other sims is that *if* the limit was 25fps for what u could see, then if you're sitting just on the mark, you'll notice it when momentarily (heavy traffic, smoke, etc) it dips below. The higher frame rate (36, etc) will give you more of a safety net. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

If your not playing GPL because your input device doesn't wiggle a bit, then you're not playing sims for the right reason at all! Just leave it on the shelf bud. Simon

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> Hi chaps, > I have GPL stored on the shelf, but should FF arrive in the patch, then I may > well re-install it. > I have a couple of questions: > The first is about framerate...people are talking about rates in the thirties! > Why would you set it that high? Your eyes can only detect up to about 20, so > dropping the frame rate would allow more graphics/cars/stuff wouldn't it? I know > frame rate was an issue in the GP1/2 days, but now most machines can run most > sims at 20 or above. > The other question is about hardware...what is the minimum spec required to run > GPL with everything on? > Thanks. > R.

Amen to that Simon, well said. Charles device doesn't wiggle a bit, then you're

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> Amen to that Simon, well said. > Charles >device doesn't wiggle a bit, then you're >>not playing sims for the right reason at all! Just leave it on the shelf >bud. >>Simon

Oh great guru, please grant us lesser mortals & the meek permission to play software that we own in the first place. :P Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Bzzzt, WRONG, thanks for playing! Joe

What are you some kinda FFF? (Force Feedback Freak) Ive tried FF and all it did was make a sim seem like a game. Have you ever tried a decent wheel like a TSW2? Those FF wheels are plastic. Charles >Oh great guru, please grant us lesser mortals & the meek permission to play >software that we own in the first place.

Sorry but that is bullshit. I can easily see the diff between 40 and 50fps, and GPL at 36fps is definetly SLOW. Guess what, you CAN se the diff between 50 and 100 too ! Well...depends on what is good ebough for ya...if 10-20 fps enough, and your eyes cant se more, stick whit a shitty rendition and Pentium133.

What are you, some kind of AFFF? (Anti-Force Feedback Freak, there are a lot of them) :) You just haven't tried the right FF sim yet. Don't worry, it's coming. And, yes, I have tried a TSW2, and with a choice between it or my FF wheel, I'll choose my FF wheel in the aforementioned FF sim anytime.

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> What are you some kinda FFF? (Force Feedback Freak) Ive tried FF and all it > did was make a sim seem like a game. Have you ever tried a decent wheel like > a TSW2? Those FF wheels are plastic. > Charles > >Oh great guru, please grant us lesser mortals & the meek permission to play > >software that we own in the first place.

-- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

No one knows, it hasn't been done yet. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

> >The other question is about hardware...what is the minimum spec required to > >run GPL with everything on? > No one knows, it hasn't been done yet. Bollocks. A normal good PC bough today can easily run GPL everything on, in 1024x768 Just get a good 12+meg Glide card (ex: Voodoo3), a Processor around 500mhz+ . It will fun at 36fps with everything on, every sound on, every graphic detail on and 19AI. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Seconded. We've done this WAAAAAAY too many times already. Cheers! John

>If you had a very slow system and GPL ran at 1 fps, would you be >surprised to find that the sim didn't respond to your input as >well as a person who could run it at 36fps? >Its the same thing, from 20 - 36fps. >It has nothing to do with 'simulation rate tied to framerate'. Zonkie's right though, the simulation itself still runs at a constant rate (unless we're talking GP2). What is different is that the information is only presented to you 20 times per second, so while you are able to make changes 36 times per second (presuming control inputs are being read) you don't have new information on which to base control changes. At 36fps you get the information and can react to it. Cheers! John

I remember having used GP2 for ages b4 I got ICR2. ICR2 ran at a constant 30fps and running a sim like this made me loose all interest in GP2. I can definantly feel relative jerkiness in anything below 30 in ICR2. And I echo the statement above about GPL running at anything other than 36 fps (ie relative jerkiness)- whatever the reasons. I think once you become acustomed to higher frame rates that there's no going back :)

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> As for the frame rate question, is there a physical limit on what is useful? > All i've ever seen is heresy, and nothing of a respectable source saying what > is a real limit. What i am inclinded to believe, especialy in the case of GPL > and other sims is that *if* the limit was 25fps for what u could see, then > if you're sitting just on the mark, you'll notice it when momentarily (heavy > traffic, smoke, etc) it dips below. The higher frame rate (36, etc) will give > you more of a safety net. > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

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>Errr did I say 20-36? No... I said between 40-60. >Read what I said then answer the comment I made there not some imaginary >one. As for rushing over to the Quake group, I know a lot of *extremely* >good FPS players and a bunch of people who make those games and they >generally agree that once you reach a certain plateau the extra fps are >really not that beneficial to the game, thus most people take that as a cue >to raise the resolution. >I share a flat with someone who has spent large sums of money ekeing the >last fps out of his system (SLI V2, TNT etc) but has stopped as he has >reached the point of diminishing returns. This is what I was talking about >not that there is *no* difference but you reach a point where as far as >playing a game goes there is no *discernable* difference. From there on it >becomes an ego thing "My PC can do demo1 at 66fps, yours is slower".

What a sad lamer. Why doesn't he spend money on something cool now like DVD/LD's?

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>>This same *tired* thread gets started about 3-4 times per year. >>"The human eye cannot detect above xxx fps.. blah, blah." >>It has been disproven 100's of times in this newsgroup and the >>flight-sim newsgroup during the 10 years I have been on usenet. >>You are simply incorrect.

Documented examples please. And i'm not talking about Joe Smoe, spending money on a new TNT & V2 Sli wanting to find some difference and/or justification in his spend. I've still not seen a shred of prrof that 30fps via 60fps is an advanatge or what. nad i'm talking a constant 30fps, not subject to dropout and peaks at lower than 30fps. (which obviously higher average frame rates help u with). Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

heh Oh my God... someone seems to understand my point. Whatever next? M

% Documented examples please. And i'm not talking about Joe Smoe, spending money % on a new TNT & V2 Sli wanting to find some difference and/or justification in % his spend. % I've still not seen a shred of prrof that 30fps via 60fps is an advanatge or % what. nad i'm talking a constant 30fps, not subject to dropout and peaks at % lower than 30fps. (which obviously higher average frame rates help u with). In the effort to conserve bandwidth (and tempers), instead of continuing to rehash old turf-war battles go to the following URL's and read what others have to say on this topic. http://www.firingsquad.com/features/faceoff/6-fps/default.asp http://www.sony-europe.com/tve/trinitron/100hz.html http://www.ping.be/powervr/fps_discus.htm http://www.robinsonresearch.com/MOVIES/part_IB.htm from http://www.student.hk-r.se/~pt93mm/thesis/domain_paper.html The qualifier 'Real-time' narrows the domain further. By this term we do not mean to imply that the system will have to deal with hard deadlines that are critical to the functionality of the application. Instead, the term is used to point out that we are talking about animation. This simply means that the frames must be produced at a speed that tricks the human eye to perceive flicker-free, or at least almost flicker-free motion. In practice, 'flicker-free' means 20 - 30 frames per second, "almost flicker-free" might be around 10 frames per second. Occasional frame rate drops to less than 10 frames per second might or might not be acceptable, depending on the application. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

This is truly stupid (and so is this post). We don't need to know who or why you are kill filling someone. Write them email, not posting it to the net. Enough with the "*plonk*"