Papy goes the same way as Indy

Indy went under Tony George's control...now the 500 is dead. Papy went under Sierra's control...now Nascar 3, CART 2000, and probably American sim racing as we know it is dead. I should have been like my brother and been a golf fan instead of racing, they don't have any of these problems. See you at the races, Eric Brighton

Dunno, Microsoft did after all buy out the guys that produce Links. ;)

Yea but Microsoft as we all know is NOT date driven (remember windows 95....oops i mean 96). Besides they didnt kill Links. LS 99 is VERY good. Sierra however has more or less killed Papy i agree....so if youre listening Sierra...take a hint. Just because some poeple are dissatisfied with a delay in relase dates doesnt mean we al are. We dont like them....but if theyre necessary to get THE BEST Papy has to offer ill tolerate it. Just my 2 cents, Chris

Oh god I better go remove Links 99 from my hard drive! ;) Scott PA-Scott > Dunno, Microsoft did after all buy out the guys that produce Links. ;) > > I should have been like my brother and been a golf fan instead of racing, > they > > don't have any of these problems. -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott on TEN http://home.earthlink.net/~sbhusted ICQ# 4395450

when did Microsoft buy Access? I know that MS often uses the links engine for their own game, but I was unaware that Access was bought by MS? I hope you all aren't confusing Microsoft Golf with Links? http://www.accesssoftware.com still is the place whre youb fink Links LS, http://www.microsoft.com/games/ has no mention of Links LS, but thier Microsoft 1999 game is listed. did this happen recentlty or what? >Dunno, Microsoft did after all buy out the guys that produce Links. ;) >> I should have been like my brother and been a golf fan instead of racing, >they >> don't have any of these problems.

ROTFL. Now thats funny as hell. Who are they? Never heard of almost any of them. Doh. Arie was a fluke, so was Eddie who was a wash out of both CART and F1. But you don't even mention the others such as Emmo or Al Unser, JR. And they've already said what they think on the subject. What fans? I can still get tickets at reasonable prices, never could before. And those aren't cars..nor are those drivers. Just because they ran at Indy does not make a driver talented. Heck, um, whats her face, ran at Indy several times....only time she ever got a ride in an Indycar. Sure.....just because there is a race on Memorial Day doesn't mean that the race is alive and well...or that its any good. Not to mention, it was Tony George who was a guest of Bill France at the CART race in Miami, not the other way around with Andrew Craig being a guest of Bill France at a IRL race. Same as yours, same as everyone else's. IRL is a joke.

you can read about it at www.accesssoftware.com

The Indy 500 is dead? Why didn't anybody tell me? I wouldn't have wasted all my time in the hot sun and in the press room over the weekend, watching some of the bravest and fastest oval drivers on the planet turn laps around the majestic 2.5-mile Brickyard. Thank God Tony George isn't doing anything else stupid, like bringing NASCAR to Indy, or constructing a road course to bring F1 races back to America. Race fans everywhere would hate Tony George if he did anything THAT stupid, yessiree. Tony George IS truly evil for what he has done to the Indianapolis 500 -- and I'm sure former Indy winners Arie Luyendyk, Eddie Cheever, A.J. Foyt, and Al Unser, Sr., would agree with you, too. Still, if Indy is dead, I wonder why I encountered so many teams, cars, drivers, and fans converging at 16th & Georgetown this weekend? Must've been that wonderful Indiana weather . . . Get a clue. There are more Indy veterans running in the IRL than there are in CART these days. Not to mention the talented new drivers who have come on the scene in the past four years. CART is full of talent, too, both young and old -- don't get me wrong (who is this Montoya guy, though? Wasn't he that guy in the movie "The Princess Bride" who was looking for the guy who killed his father? <G>). CART and the IRL are two vastly different products now, though, and the Indianapolis 500 -- AND the IRL -- are getting along fine without CART, just as CART is getting along fine without the Indy 500. It is true that Indy, the IRL, and CART would probably all be doing better if some way could be found to unify the IRL and CART, but there are factions on both sides that are working on this issue, so give it time. In the meantime, there are still cars breaking records at Indy this May, and there's still going to be a race on Memorial day in Indy, so it seems to me that the Indy 500 is alive and well, Nostradamus. You ARE entitled to your opinion, but you know what they say about opinions and belly-buttons . . . -- John Bodin Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

> Tony George IS truly evil for what he > has done to the Indianapolis 500 -- and I'm sure former Indy winners > Arie Luyendyk, Eddie Cheever, A.J. Foyt, and Al Unser, Sr., would > agree with you, too. As far as A.J. Foyt & Al Unser Sr, they could certainly vouch for the history of the Indianapolis 500 as being the premeire racing event in motorsports. Once upon a time, only the fastest of racecars competed there. Nowadays we have grossly underpowered (by comparison to CART, the *real* IndyCars!) cars driven by 1) old washed-up has beens whose reflexes probably would be strained in a CART vehicle, & 2) "minor league" drivers looking to make the real Big Show. Don't get me wrong, I love all racing & I kinda see the IRL/CART relationship somewhat akin to college/pro football, basketball, etc. BUT. To take & cheapen the Indy 500 the way it has been is truly pathetic! That is what is unacceptable about Mr. George. His minor league race organization provides sometimes some pretty exciting racing, but keep the Indy 500 where it *belongs*. In the Big Leagues! -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Unarmed & unafraid!

On Sun, 16 May 1999 23:16:26 -0500, "Chris Schletter"

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>> The Indy 500 is dead? Why didn't anybody tell me? I wouldn't have >> wasted all my time in the hot sun and in the press room over the >> weekend, watching some of the bravest and fastest oval drivers on the >> planet turn laps around the majestic 2.5-mile Brickyard. >ROTFL. Now thats funny as hell. Who are they? Never heard of almost >any of them. Doh.

Ditto most of CART's new talent. People in glass houses, Homer . . . Yeah, but Carl Haas and Roger Penske were at Indy last year, and I've NEVER heard of Tony George dropping in on CART's crown jewel, which would be, uh, don't help me . . . uh, lessee . . . hmmm . . . oh, yeah, that would be that race at Penske's track in Fontana, right? You know -- "All Roads Lead To Fontana" and all. Oh, wait -- Penske SOLD all his tracks (and most of his CART stock, too. Never mind. Must be the Long Beach race that Tony George hasn't visited. After all, it IS called the CART/FedEx LongBeachCar World Series, right? Oh, wait -- you must be implying that Homestead IS CART's crown jewel. I get it. FWIW, Roger Penske scouted out Jason Leffler at the Terre Haute Actioin Track last fall -- does THAT mean that Penske plans to buy up all the dirt tracks, or has he finally decided that Terre Haute is THE mecca of motorsports, and Penske Racing can't survive in the world of motorsports without being a part of the Terre Haute Action Track? Now, tell me, how far do we want to stretch these asinine arguments? The Indy 500 was the Greatest Spectacle In Racing long before Roger Penske, Carl Haas, Chip Gnassis, and Steve Green were even born, and the race did just fine before CART, and it will continue on into the next millenium with or without CART. The Indy 500 doesn't have an identity crisis -- CART and the IRL might be suffering from all this, but the Indy 500 is still THE premiere auto race in the U.S.

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>On Sun, 16 May 1999 23:16:26 -0500, >>IRL is a joke. >Yep, and T. George should burn in hell for what he has done to >the biggest American race. >Does anyone know (or care) about any other race the IRL runs >except for Indy?

Yup -- EVERY track owner who's ever thought of (or is currently thinking of) applying asphalt in an oval-shaped configuration. Track owners are finding that a motorsports facility can't survive on one or two NASCAR races per year, and since CART can't/won't run on high-banked ovals (one detrimental aspect of being too fast and not reducing speeds to safe, sane levels), that means that the IRL is every track owner's greatest hope for future prosperity. The promoters make or break a race or a race series, and a LOT of promoters have a vested interest in the IRL. There's a very good chance that the IRL will be around long after CART is just a footnone in the annals of motorsports. Remember the Formula 5000 series, by chance?

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>On Sun, 16 May 1999 23:16:26 -0500, "Chris Schletter" >>> The Indy 500 is dead? Why didn't anybody tell me? I wouldn't have >>> wasted all my time in the hot sun and in the press room over the >>> weekend, watching some of the bravest and fastest oval drivers on the >>> planet turn laps around the majestic 2.5-mile Brickyard. >>ROTFL. Now thats funny as hell. Who are they? Never heard of almost >>any of them. Doh. >Ditto most of CART's new talent. People in glass houses, Homer . . .

I think yopu'll find most of them are very well know to Europeean motor sport Fans. i hink the point is that the IRL drivers are not very well know to American motor sport fans 8) For whatever reason, Europe seems to turn out much better drivers than Nth America does. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

AH! Thank you for the diversion -- here's something we can argue about besides the tired, old, CART vs. IRL drivel . . . <G> -- JB

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>Now, tell me, how far do we want to stretch these asinine arguments? >The Indy 500 was the Greatest Spectacle In Racing long before Roger >Penske, Carl Haas, Chip Gnassis, and Steve Green were even born, and >the race did just fine before CART, and it will continue on into the >next millenium with or without CART. The Indy 500 doesn't have an >identity crisis -- CART and the IRL might be suffering from all this, >but the Indy 500 is still THE premiere auto race in the U.S.

I'm not looking to contend your obvious knowledge, but to me Indy appears to be living on ever-dwindling past glory. I'm a big fan of seeing motorcycle guys like Jeff Ward get a chance in cars, but the Indy 500 just isn't what it was. Within 3 years, I think the Indy 500 will whither enough that the Daytona 500 will be THE premier auto race in the U.S. It's arguable that it is already, and I'm not a big NASCAR fan. At least the buzz about Daytona is all exciting and positive. <shrug> Tim

>the history of >the Indianapolis 500 as being the premeire racing event in motorsports. Key word is "history." Well said! Trey Behan

>CART and the IRL might be suffering from all this, >but the Indy 500 is still THE premiere auto race in the U.S. Open-wheel racing IS suffering from the splintering, greed-oriented actions of Mr. George. New fans are completely confused, and end up turning to NASCAR instead of helping to grow what was once a thriving racing venue. As to the Indy 500, it can only cruise on its name recognition for so long. The new fan tunes it in, and is completely bored by the Billy Boats and the dentists. Its marketing reminds me of that Chevy they re-badged as a Cadillac. If you want spec racing, go to IROC. At least it has a majority of known drivers. Plus, its best-known figure doesn't get into stupid shoving matches in Victory Lane. The IRL, in and of itself, is not evil. But until it and its vendor grow up some, it will represent more drag than thrust to the sport. Trey Behan Trey Behan

Actually, Tony George has had talks with the owners of the Calder Thunderdome in Melbourne? and there are plans in the works to bring an IRL race to that Oval Track sometime in the next year or two!!! Just remember folks.... In the bigger scheme of things... 5, 10, 15 years down the road the Indy 500 will be 100 years+ old as a race and will still be the greatest spectacle in racing. By then drivers in the CART FedEx series will be considered guys running a feeder series to F1 and the IRL will be as popular as BGN is today! True the series would be stronger together than apart, but what would happen if the IRL and CART were to merge and they STILL only got 1.5 TV ratings?!?!?!?! Yikes! ps: I live in Dallas TX, and have/will attend both IRL races at Texas Motor Speedway, along with over 100,000 of my friends so when you (rrevved) say no one watches outside of the Indy 500, thats a bunch of hooey!

Oooh, I dunno - is "The Racing Dentist" Jack Miller still there? That's one serious professional there.... Intermediate Racing League? Yes. -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 ________________________________________________________________________________ "Sorry, my eyes were on screensaver" (Calvin & Hobbes)

Touch John!! Good One!! <BG>

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> The Indy 500 is dead? Why didn't anybody tell me? I wouldn't have > wasted all my time in the hot sun and in the press room over the > weekend, watching some of the bravest and fastest oval drivers on the > planet turn laps around the majestic 2.5-mile Brickyard. > Thank God Tony George isn't doing anything else stupid, like bringing > NASCAR to Indy, or constructing a road course to bring F1 races back > to America. Race fans everywhere would hate Tony George if he did > anything THAT stupid, yessiree. Tony George IS truly evil for what he > has done to the Indianapolis 500 -- and I'm sure former Indy winners > Arie Luyendyk, Eddie Cheever, A.J. Foyt, and Al Unser, Sr., would > agree with you, too. > Still, if Indy is dead, I wonder why I encountered so many teams, > cars, drivers, and fans converging at 16th & Georgetown this weekend? > Must've been that wonderful Indiana weather . . . > Get a clue. There are more Indy veterans running in the IRL than > there are in CART these days. Not to mention the talented new drivers > who have come on the scene in the past four years. CART is full of > talent, too, both young and old -- don't get me wrong (who is this > Montoya guy, though? Wasn't he that guy in the movie "The Princess > Bride" who was looking for the guy who killed his father? <G>). > CART and the IRL are two vastly different products now, though, and > the Indianapolis 500 -- AND the IRL -- are getting along fine without > CART, just as CART is getting along fine without the Indy 500. It is > true that Indy, the IRL, and CART would probably all be doing better > if some way could be found to unify the IRL and CART, but there are > factions on both sides that are working on this issue, so give it > time. In the meantime, there are still cars breaking records at Indy > this May, and there's still going to be a race on Memorial day in > Indy, so it seems to me that the Indy 500 is alive and well, > Nostradamus. > You ARE entitled to your opinion, but you know what they say about > opinions and belly-buttons . . . > -- John Bodin > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

Hell, I dont care about Indy either. Winning the Indy 500 now is about the equivalent of winning a Saturday night heat race at the fairgrounds. Scott PA-Scott -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

My opinion is that the veterans went with iRL to win races... The quality of racing in the IRL is poor. I tried to stomach a few races when it started (including INDY), but I couldn't take it any more. So in some peoples opinion (mine included)... The Indy 500 IS dead.

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>Nostradamus. >You ARE entitled to your opinion, but you know what they say about >opinions and belly-buttons . . . >-- John Bodin > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/ >>Indy went under Tony George's control...now the 500 is dead. >>Papy went under Sierra's control...now Nascar 3, CART 2000, and probably >>American sim racing as we know it is dead. >>I should have been like my brother and been a golf fan instead of racing,

they >>don't have any of these problems. >>See you at the races, >>Eric Brighton

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>The Indy 500 is dead? Why didn't anybody tell me? I wouldn't have >wasted all my time in the hot sun and in the press room over the >weekend, watching some of the bravest and fastest oval drivers on the >planet turn laps around the majestic 2.5-mile Brickyard. >In the meantime, there are still cars breaking records at Indy >this May, and there's still going to be a race on Memorial day in >Indy, so it seems to me that the Indy 500 is alive and well, >Nostradamus.

dear heavily-slanted indycar buffoon- this was taken from an ESPN article in 1998: NEW YORK -- As far as television ratings are concerned, the Indianapolis 500 has become just another race. Three years into the split between the CART and IRL racing series, the Indianapolis 500 has lost household names and its luster. The 5.6 overnight rating for this year's was down 18 percent from 1996, the last time the race was run on Sunday, and 33 percent from 1995, the last year before the CART-IRL split. (A rating point represents 980,000 households). Last year's race, which ran on a Tuesday afternoon following two days of rain, got a 5.0/18. The beneficiary of the split has been NASCAR, which has quickly become the ratings king of auto racing. NASCAR's weekly race ratings now regularly more than double those of CART and the IRL. The Daytona 500, the crown jewel of NASCAR's Winston Cup series, has outrated Indy each of the last three years. The 7.7 overnight rating for this year's Daytona 500 was 38 percent higher than Indy. But even less glamorous races, like last month's Diehard 500 on ABC, which got a 5.7, and Texas 500 on CBS, which got a 5.4, post ratings about as high as Indy. so, to summarize for you... the indy 500 has done the following in ratings: 1995 = 7.4 1996 = 6.6 1997 = 5.0 (rain) 1998 = 5.6 NASCAR less-than-centerpiece races at secondary tracks received ratings at the same level as the formerly marquee race. the daytona 500 was 38% HIGHER than the cute little fenderless race and it got a 9.5 rating for this year. i looked for the TV ratings of last year's brickyard 400, but i couldn't find them. i'll bet you a nickel that it was higher than the pathetic indy 500, though. go carts suck.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH Yeah.. and the 12 fans in the stands (who got free tickets) and the TV ratings equivalent to reruns of Carlton Sheetz infomercials at 4AM!! CART will be around when the IRL is dead and barried with Tony Georges Ego! Scott PA-Scott -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

> >ROTFL. Now thats funny as hell. Who are they? Never heard of almost > >any of them. Doh. > Ditto most of CART's new talent. People in glass houses, Homer . . . How about a new guy named Montoya who is doing fairly well as a rookie? Hell of alot more talent and "names" in CART than the IRL. The Ignorant Racing League gets "whats left". Maybe until you realize that the Indy 500 is tainted and has lost its luster BIG time. ABC was considering getting rid of its rights to broadcast it. Carl Haas, Chip Gnassis, and Steve Green were even born, "WAS" IS the operative word. Well thats only 1 more year. I guess that depends on how you define premier. If you are basing it on history and past prestige you are right. However, if you are using issues such as top competitors in the series, attendance, TV ratings, publicity, prestige, etc ... you better check your facts. I believe the Daytona 500 is THE premiere auto race in the US now. Hell, The Brickyard 400 is more prosperous than the Indy 500 is currently! I can't even tell you who won Indy the past few years?? Hell.. besides when Tony Stewart was there, where did these guys come from. Billy Boat (is that a correct name?). ROFL - real prestige. Almost EVERY ordinary NASCAR event had better TV ratings than the Indy 500 last year. Don't even go near Daytona or the Brickyard ratings. Ratings and attendance don't lie. A series is not just history. If it were... then the Trans-Am and Can-Am series would be thriving today. Scott PA-Scott G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

> For whatever reason, Europe seems to turn out much better drivers than Nth > America does. DOH!! Don't go there Zonkie ;) LOL Scott PA-Scott -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

yeah like Micheal Shumacher. or Jeff Gordon for that, Indy 500 never did have all the best drivers anyways... Not to say I don't think it's ruined, it's just more diluted than it used to be.

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>On Mon, 17 May 1999 10:10:35 -0500, >>Just remember folks.... In the bigger scheme of things... 5, 10, 15 years >>down the road the Indy 500 will be 100 years+ old as a race and will still >>be the greatest spectacle in racing. >It will never again be the 'greatest spectacle in racing', unless it has >the greatest drivers and cars in racing. >-- >// rrevved posts from mindspring dot com

-Raul Boesel did some F1 in 1982-83 for March and Ligier. -Roberto Guerrero did 2 F1 race in 82/83 also (Ensign F1 team and Theodore F1 team). -Eliseo Salazar did some F1 in 1981-82-83 (Ensign F1, ATS Ford and Ram March). -Roberto Moreno raced and tested in F1 in 1987,88,89,90,91,92 and 1995 (Forti!) I think that's all with Eddie Cheever. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

And they all can't get a ride in CART either. :)

Like what? I can't think of any (and there might be one or two) that were F1 drivers that also got washed out of CART. Sorry, but if I'm a young F1 wannabe, the last place I want to be driving in is IRL....CART, F3000, IndyLights, Toyota Atlantic (which is running a race this year as a support race for the Canadian GP), etc are the prime choices. Think that the F1 bosses are going to look at you if you haven't proven you can run on a road course? :)

And what's he famous for? Being kicked and punched by Nelson Piquet on live Worldwide TV at Hockenheim in 1982 :-) Maybe AJ Foyt could hit him a few times so he feels at home... -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 ________________________________________________________________________________ "Sorry, my eyes were on screensaver" (Calvin & Hobbes)

>if you're an F1 fan, the IRL *does* have something to offer . . . It certainly had something to offer its Champion: A chance to bail for the bigs and drive in NASCAR, where he's doing pretty well! Haven't read too much about the rest of the pack being offered rides outside the League, whereas F1 shelled out big bucks to get Zanardi and Villeneuve back from CART. Trey Behan

I hate to tell you this, but CART is a world wide series like F1, like most Americans you forget we are just a speck on this earth..By the way those of us who purchased CART stock when it came out, are grinning ear to ear on the returns and incomes being made!

On Mon, 17 May 1999 20:23:09 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" >HAHAHAHAHAHAH >Yeah.. and the 12 fans in the stands (who got free tickets) and the TV >ratings equivalent to reruns of Carlton Sheetz infomercials at 4AM!! 50,000 fans at a venue that can hold 120,000+ is bound to look sparse, but when it only takes 25,000 fans in the stands to make it profitable, you can bet the race promoters are laughing all the way to the bank -- and loving the IRL for being there. The IRL may be lacking in coverage, but CART's TV ratings have been even lower than the IRL. How many times do I have to remind you pikers about the "people in glass houses" thing? Geez . . . -- JB

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>On Mon, 17 May 1999 10:10:35 -0500, >>Just remember folks.... In the bigger scheme of things... 5, 10, 15 years >>down the road the Indy 500 will be 100 years+ old as a race and will still >>be the greatest spectacle in racing. >It will never again be the 'greatest spectacle in racing', unless it has >the greatest drivers and cars in racing.

This is all asinine, and I can't believe you bozos sucked me into this old, tired "IRL vs. CART" argument again. Even worse, I can't believe I let myself get sucked into it. There's NOTHING left to discuss on this issue. Your argument about the "greatest drivers and cars in racing" doesn't hold water by ANYBODY's standards. A fan of American dirt tracks will have a different opinion of who the best drivers are, just as an F1 race fan's opinion will be equally different. Fans of NHRA drag racing will have an even different view, for that matter. There is NO definitive answer to the question of who the "greatest drivers and cars in racing" are, so it's a moot point to even banter around such irrelevant cliches. This line of reasoning only takes us down to the elementary school level, and next thing you know, one of us will be saying, "Oh yeah, well my driver's better than your driver." Then, inevitably, the issue of whose father can beat up the other guy's father comes up, and, frankly, that just doesn't seem like a worthy course for me to pursue intellectually, so I'm just not going there. The Indianapolis 500 has a long and rich history -- those who study the history of Indy will tell you that virtually EVERY year, there has been some form of controversy. The rear-drive British invasion was controversial; the turbine cars were controversial; big wings and ground effects were controversial at one time; Ray Harroun's decision to race without a driving mechanic was controversial; baloons and outhouses have caused controversy (if you don't know about this reference, you've missed out on a very good story); front-wheel drive Novis caused controversy; popoff valves were controversial; equivalency formulas have always been controversial; the Marmon Wasp itself was controverial (if you don't know what the Marmon Wasp is, please don't waste my time with a rubuttal to ANY of this); the 100, 150, and 200 mph barriers were controverial; I could go on and on and on and on, and even then, Donald Davidson could STILL come up with even MORE controversy surrounding the Indianapolis 500. The whole CART/IRL issue is just another bit of controversy that will someday become another footnote in the Indy 500's long and glorious history, and the Indy 500 WILL go on long after BOTH the IRL and CART are just the answers to trivia questions known only to diehard lovers of obscure race trivia. You can have whatever opinion you want about the IRL and CART -- there's some great racing and some great talent in both series, and they both have a lot of merit. There are records being set at the fabled Brickyard this May, though, which tells me that the Indianapolis 500 is alive and well, thank you very much, so if it doesn't rain tomorrow, I'll probably be spending some time at the track watching pointy-nosed cars do what I love to see them do. The Indy 500 is dead -- long live the Indy 500! -- JB

On Mon, 17 May 1999 19:49:16 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" >Hell, I dont care about Indy either. Winning the Indy 500 now is >about the equivalent of winning a Saturday night heat race at the >fairgrounds. You're absolutely right -- just ask Eddie Cheever's accountant.

Roger Penske has sold off most of his CART stock now that it's doubled in value, and recently Roger Penske sold off his tracks. Maybe Roger Penske is a more savvy (and informed) businessman than the average CART stockholder . . . -- JB

> There are records being set at the > fabled Brickyard this May, though, which tells me that the > Indianapolis 500 is alive and well, thank you very much, > -- JB Yeah? Which records are being set? Speed? Or will it be attendance? I know, TV ratings! I don't think so. To what, sir, do you refer? -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Unarmed & unafraid!

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> On Tue, 18 May 1999 13:42:01 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" > >Winning $$$$ does not make it prestigious when you are competing against > >has been and never was drivers. > Here's words you'll NEVER hear any real race driver utter: > Driver: "No sir, I'm sorry -- I can't accept that million-dollar > purse. Your race just isn't prestigious enough, and I couldn't > tarnish my reputation as a driver by taking your money and making > myself a millioniaire. I'll go struggle in some other series . . ."

So what you are saying is that IRL drivers are just collecting money at Indy because 99% of them dont have the talent to compete in a "real" series?? "Ill stay in the IRL so I can compete and make money because I dont have enough talent to run in CART and its top notch talent." ??? Scott Goodyear is leading the points after 2 races and has earned $217,650. An avg of $108,825 per race in IRL. I dont have any CART statistics handy. Again.. you are equating "prestige" to dollars when i was arguing just the opposite. You need to compete against top talent for it to be prestigeous. The IRL and the Indy 500 arent even close. -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott on TEN http://home.earthlink.net/~sbhusted ICQ# 4395450

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>> There are records being set at the >> fabled Brickyard this May, though, which tells me that the >> Indianapolis 500 is alive and well, thank you very much, >> -- JB >Yeah? Which records are being set? Speed? Or will it be attendance? I know, >TV ratings! I don't think so. To what, sir, do you refer?

Golly, Chuck -- the records to which I am referring would be the speed records for cars powered by normally-aspirated engines on Indy's 2.5-mile oval. Greg Ray and Arie Luyendyk both beat last year's record Pole speed in the first two days of testing. The normally-aspirated IRL cars may not be as fast as the cars from the turbo era, but one of the goals of the IRL was to reduce speeds, which they have done. Yes, boys and girls, you've got to go fast to race, but it's also true that speed kills. Remember Scott Brayton (may he rest in peace)? Still, even though the officials try to slow 'em down, somehow the amazing mechanics, crew chiefs, and drivers in the IRL keep finding ways to make 'em go faster. I guess that's just not an exciting thing to some people unless it's accompanied by the whine of a turbo whine, though, which is a shame. Still, as I said, while we've been glued to our monitors to some degree or another arguing about the alleged demise of the Indianapolis 500, there have been pointy-nosed cars turning fast laps and breaking recoreds at Indy. Of course, real race fans are already aware of this, I'm sure . . .

On Mon, 17 May 1999 20:37:10 GMT, "Scott B. Husted"

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>> >ROTFL. Now thats funny as hell. Who are they? Never heard of almost >> >any of them. Doh. >> Ditto most of CART's new talent. People in glass houses, Homer . . . >How about a new guy named Montoya who is doing fairly well as a rookie? Hell of >alot more talent and "names" in CART than the IRL. The Ignorant Racing League >gets "whats left". >> Now, tell me, how far do we want to stretch these asinine arguments? >Maybe until you realize that the Indy 500 is tainted and has lost its luster BIG >time. ABC was considering getting rid of its rights to broadcast it.

CORRECTION: The Indianapolis Motor Speedway may choose not to renew THEIR contract with ABC next year. IMS wants a package deal: Whoever agrees to broadcast every race of the entire IRL series -- preferrably live -- will win the rights to the Indianapolis 500 in the year 2000 and beyond. Geez, if I had a dime for every half-truth and pseudo-fact . . .

Thanks, Thom -- it gets pretty hot around here when the rhetoric begins to fly and the flamethrower-equipped sharks start to circle. <G> -- JB

Not really CART stock has went up 5 more dollars since Roger sold his stock. Several of the original owners sold stock 2 weeks ago..Like all IPOs the main owner have a buil in waiting period when a company goes public before they can sell stock. Wait to the time is up on Amazon.com this fall, you'll see a huge drop in it at that time..

>>It will never again be the 'greatest spectacle in racing', unless it has >>the greatest drivers and cars in racing. >I don't recall any of the greatest drivers competing in it since the F1 >boys stopped running there.... <g,d&r> LOL! Exactly my point, Richard -- everybody has a different opinion on the issue of "the greatest drivers." FWIW, the IRL has at least as many "washed-up F1 veterans" and "young F1 wannabes" as CART, so if you're an F1 fan, the IRL *does* have something to offer . . . ;-) -- JB

>IMS wants a package deal: Whoever >agrees to broadcast every race of the entire IRL series -- preferrably >live -- will win the rights to the Indianapolis 500 in the year 2000 >and beyond. At last! A reason to sign up for the Disney Channel! Trey Behan

Actually, I really liked the idea of CART's stock going public, but, unfortunately, it also serves as something of an impediment to the possibilities of an IRL/CART reunification. CART is a publicly-traded organization, and the IRL is a private, family-owned business, and the two just don't mix very well. What the CART owners might like may not be in the best interests of the shareholders, and with many masters to answer to, it's hard to find a deal that will work for all parties involved. Give it time, though. Controversies like this DO become a footnote eventually, and no matter what we think, there ARE a lot more Indy-style races going on these days, which ain't a bad thing. -- JB

Winning $$$$ does not make it prestigious when you are competing against has been and never was drivers. Scott PA-Scott G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

Not forgetting that Moreno got some good results at Benneton when he replaced Nannini, including a second place. Mark > > btw - isn't Cheever the only ex-F1 pilot in IRL? Have I forgotten someone

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> > else? > -Raul Boesel did some F1 in 1982-83 for March and Ligier. > -Roberto Guerrero did 2 F1 race in 82/83 also (Ensign F1 team and Theodore > F1 team). > -Eliseo Salazar did some F1 in 1981-82-83 (Ensign F1, ATS Ford and Ram > March). > -Roberto Moreno raced and tested in F1 in 1987,88,89,90,91,92 and 1995 > (Forti!) > I think that's all with Eddie Cheever. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> > -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ > -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ > -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

>>if you're an F1 fan, the IRL *does* have something to offer . . . >It certainly had something to offer its Champion: A chance to bail for the bigs >and drive in NASCAR, where he's doing pretty well! Haven't read too much about >the rest of the pack being offered rides outside the League, whereas F1 shelled >out big bucks to get Zanardi and Villeneuve back from CART. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (I know you guys will -- you never disappoint), but I heard that Zanardi took a pay CUT to go from Chip Ganassi's CART team to F1. On the subject of the IRL, Roger Penske recruited Jason Leffler from the IRL to use him as his test driver this year. Stewart may be reaching the "household name" level, but there are definitely others with talent in the IRL.

On Tue, 18 May 1999 13:42:01 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" >Winning $$$$ does not make it prestigious when you are competing against >has been and never was drivers. Here's words you'll NEVER hear any real race driver utter: Driver: "No sir, I'm sorry -- I can't accept that million-dollar purse. Your race just isn't prestigious enough, and I couldn't tarnish my reputation as a driver by taking your money and making myself a millioniaire. I'll go struggle in some other series . . ." If a first-place prize of over a million dollars, and a total purse in excess of 8 million isn't "prestigious," then I don't know what is. Speaking of prestigious, could you tell me, by chance, how much Montoya's earned for any of his past 3 victories? I'm not questioning his talent here, mind you -- he's a DEFINITE talent -- but I'd like to put a dollar figure on this issue of "prestige," just for the record. -- JB

Okay folks, this has REALLY gotten ridiculous -- this is one of the longest threads I've seen in the R.A.S newsgroup yet. The argument is asinine, and it really would be more at home in the R.A.S.I. newsgroup than here, so I'm going to put an end to it now: The IRL sucks; F1 is just a bunch of weenies; NASCAR ain't real racin'. CART rules, period. The Indy 500 is dead, and Tony George should be hanged until dead. There. Everybody satisfied? Good. Now, let's get back to talking about simulations. [Please note that this is the first deurogatory thing I've said here about ANY race series, and I'm only speaking in jest about F1 and NASCAR -- and the IRL for that matter.] -- John Bodin Former Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine (now defunct due to the demise of the Indy 500 and the IRL) http://www.don'tbothertheirlisajokeandyoudon'tcareanyway.com

>>IMS wants a package deal: Whoever >>agrees to broadcast every race of the entire IRL series -- preferrably >>live -- will win the rights to the Indianapolis 500 in the year 2000 >>and beyond. >At last! A reason to sign up for the Disney Channel! What -- you never noticed that Donald Duck isn't wearing any pants until now? <G> ;-) -- JB "No, your honor, I didn't say she was crazy, I said she was . . ."

On Tue, 18 May 1999 23:50:30 -0400, "Scott B. Husted"

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>> On Tue, 18 May 1999 13:42:01 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" >> >Winning $$$$ does not make it prestigious when you are competing against >> >has been and never was drivers. >> Here's words you'll NEVER hear any real race driver utter: >> Driver: "No sir, I'm sorry -- I can't accept that million-dollar >> purse. Your race just isn't prestigious enough, and I couldn't >> tarnish my reputation as a driver by taking your money and making >> myself a millioniaire. I'll go struggle in some other series . . ." >So what you are saying is that IRL drivers are just collecting money at Indy >because 99% of them dont have the talent to compete in a "real" series?? >"Ill stay in the IRL so I can compete and make money because I dont have >enough talent to run in CART and its top notch talent." ???

No, that's what YOU'RE saying. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm the one who thinks the IRL *is* a "real" prestigious series with top notch talent, remember? I can't tell you how good it makes me feel to know that you follow the IRL *that* closely -- I couldn't have come up with those figures off the top of my head. Doesn't this illustrate to you the inherent wrongness with your overall view of this whole issue? The IRL is a series that you seem to loath, and yet you follow it closely enough that you are able to retain more useless, esoteric information about that series than an avowed, *** IRL fan? Seek help, man, seek help. If you like something, watch it, follow it, devour it if you will, but if you don't like something, then find better things to do with your time. Take a walk, spend time with your loved ones, but don't waste another second of your life following the IRL, worrying about the state of the Indianapolis 500, or getting all twisted up with negativity in general. Geez -- racing is SUPPPOSED to be entertainment. Again, the issue of "top talent" is purely based on individual opinion. Alex Zanaradi isn't competing against Dale Earnhardt or Jeff Gordon, so he isn't (and hasn't) competed against the top talent, which makes him second-rate . . . gimme a break! We're almost down to the "my driver is better than your driver" level here. I feel an uncontrollable urge to say, "Oh yeah? Well neener-neener . . ."

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>Okay folks, this has REALLY gotten ridiculous -- this is one of the >longest threads I've seen in the R.A.S newsgroup yet. The argument is >asinine, and it really would be more at home in the R.A.S.I. newsgroup >than here, so I'm going to put an end to it now: >The IRL sucks; F1 is just a bunch of weenies; NASCAR ain't real >racin'. CART rules, period. The Indy 500 is dead, and Tony George >should be hanged until dead. >There. Everybody satisfied? Good. Now, let's get back to talking >about simulations. >[Please note that this is the first deurogatory thing I've said here >about ANY race series, and I'm only speaking in jest about F1 and >NASCAR -- and the IRL for that matter.]

FWIW, I was just kidding about the Tony George part, too -- he's a VERY nice guy, actually.

> I can't tell you how good it makes me feel to know that you follow the > IRL *that* closely -- I couldn't have come up with those figures off > the top of my head. No... I simply went to ESPN.com and found it. They didn't have the dollar winnings for CART and I didn't feel like looking. Im not a diehard CART fan either... but I do enjoy watching them. Not in the least. Read above. I simply pulled it off ESPN.com I can find the winnings of the professional chess players but that doesn't mean im a "***" fan. If it means it would scramble my brain enough to think that the IRL is a "professional" race series I will pass <G> The day I believe the IRL in its current format is a "professional" race series is the day I get a lobotomy! <G> SUPPOSED to be is the operative word for the IRL. I dont and will never follow the IRL. The last time I knew Zanardi was not a stock car driver, he was an open wheel racer. BIG difference. Scott PA-Scott -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

> >Okay folks, this has REALLY gotten ridiculous -- this is one of the > >longest threads I've seen in the R.A.S newsgroup yet. John, I see where you're coming from on the IRL/Indy issue. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody can change anybody's mindset about an issue on RAS. That's just the way it is. Save your sanity... you can't fend off all the incoming missles from the "other viewpoint". I've got caught up in them in the past... and it's fruitless. However, I never learn, so... As for IRL... I'm not real partial to it, but probably because it doesn't get much exposure, so I don't see it much. I will say this: ANYBODY that will jump into a high powered missle and hurl it around at those speeds deserves a TRUE racing enthusiats respect, league regardless. The "Billy Boats" take just as much, or more, risk as the "Schumacher's" or "Andretti's", etc. What saddens me is that even self-proclaimed/so-called "racing enthusiasts" can have the audacity to belittle the IRL's driver's efforts, and they are engaged in a potentially life threatning sport as much as any open wheeled driver. I have seen drivers with "heart" in each series. To think that a driver is less of a person than another because he drives in IRL is ludicrous. I remember watching Buddy Lazier almost collapse while in the Winner's Cirle at Indy a few years back. Why? Because he was driving with a (recovering) broken back. Think about that. 220+ MPH with a broken back... knowing that even a small mishap could leave him crippled for life. Yet, he took the risk. Why? Because he's a RACER through and through. Odd. I hear all this about that "no name" driver, etc. Hmmm... seems to me that every upcoming driver is a "no name". That's why's he's there... to prove his worth. Few knew squat about past "newbies" in CART. (Remember some of the hairbrained mistakes a certain newbie made in his rookie year in CART? It was a fellow by the name of Alex Zanardi.) But some went on to prove their talent... those that couldn't, fall by the wayside. That's racing. Ditto this this "Tony Stewart" kid... who's he? Well, it's being proven that he can indeed run with the best in his chosen ield: Nascar Winston Cup. And, like it or not, he came up through the IRL to get there. And therein lies another overlooked fact: Perhaps most of the upcoming IRL boys don't WANT to drive F1 cars. Their passion is oval racing. As for the so-called "has been" F1 drivers in IRL (or CART)... well... could it just be that (though their skills aren't what's required for F1)... they just want to RACE? Seems to me that's a genuine racer. One that won't quit because he can't be in the "Big Show" that has all the glamour... but instead, he finds a car, a series, SOMETHING... and keeps racing. Seems to me that's "heart". But what do I know? Anyway, it saddens me to see drivers that lay everything on the line, risking life and limb, REGARDLESS of venue, to be sneered at and belittled because that venue doesn't happen to be the "Anointed One" of the small person doing the sneering. To me, that's a real tradgedy. Andre Ming

>Toyota Atlantic (which is running a race >this year as a support race for the Canadian GP), This is not a new thing. They've beening running as a support race there as long back as i can recall. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

> The last time I knew Zanardi was not a stock car driver, he was an open wheel > racer. BIG difference. Assuming it is a BIG difference, it MUST take a LOT of talent to do both. Heheheheh, has there been ANY CART guys go from open to stock cars successfully? Note: Since the split up? Hmmmmm, I wonder which series has had people do that most difficult trick of being successful in open and stock cars :) IRL or CART? Bill / Amish on TEN

And your point is what? With the exception of John Andretti, I would hazard a guess that most CART drivers wouldn't even want to drive NASCARs. A lot of the CART guys have road racing roots, not the other way around. If they are going to leave a series for another (by choice and not by not being able to get rides, aka Cheever, Goodyear, Roberto, etc.) it'd be F1. IRL and NASCAR are more alike than CART and NASCAR so you might see a fair amount of transition between the two, but I don't think you'd see many Busch or WC drivers going to IRL.

>> Hmmmmm, I wonder which series has had people do that most difficult >> trick of being successful in open and stock cars :) IRL or CART? >And your point is what Well, the point was that it IS difficult and takes a very talented driver to make successful transition between the 2 series. I just wonder which series has produced the most successful drivers at making that transition? It was said earlier it is NOT a easy transition. Assuming it isn't an easy transition it MUST take talented drivers to make that transition. If that is true, then it would seem logical that the series that has produced more successful racers in the other series MUST have more talented drivers? So.... Which has produced more? IRL or CART? Bill / Amish on TEN

Andre, Well put; that needed saying. DK

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> > >Okay folks, this has REALLY gotten ridiculous -- this is one of the > > >longest threads I've seen in the R.A.S newsgroup yet. > John, I see where you're coming from on the IRL/Indy issue. > Unfortunately, it seems that nobody can change anybody's mindset about > an issue on RAS. That's just the way it is. Save your sanity... you > can't fend off all the incoming missles from the "other viewpoint". > I've got caught up in them in the past... and it's fruitless. However, I > never learn, so... > As for IRL... I'm not real partial to it, but probably because it > doesn't get much exposure, so I don't see it much. I will say this: > ANYBODY that will jump into a high powered missle and hurl it around at > those speeds deserves a TRUE racing enthusiats respect, league > regardless. The "Billy Boats" take just as much, or more, risk as the > "Schumacher's" or "Andretti's", etc. What saddens me is that even > self-proclaimed/so-called "racing enthusiasts" can have the audacity to > belittle the IRL's driver's efforts, and they are engaged in a > potentially life threatning sport as much as any open wheeled driver. > I have seen drivers with "heart" in each series. To think that a driver > is less of a person than another because he drives in IRL is ludicrous. > I remember watching Buddy Lazier almost collapse while in the Winner's > Cirle at Indy a few years back. Why? Because he was driving with a > (recovering) broken back. Think about that. 220+ MPH with a broken > back... knowing that even a small mishap could leave him crippled for > life. Yet, he took the risk. Why? Because he's a RACER through and > through. > Odd. I hear all this about that "no name" driver, etc. Hmmm... seems to > me that every upcoming driver is a "no name". That's why's he's there... > to prove his worth. Few knew squat about past "newbies" in CART. > (Remember some of the hairbrained mistakes a certain newbie made in his > rookie year in CART? It was a fellow by the name of Alex Zanardi.) But > some went on to prove their talent... those that couldn't, fall by the > wayside. That's racing. Ditto this this "Tony Stewart" kid... who's > he? Well, it's being proven that he can indeed run with the best in his > chosen ield: Nascar Winston Cup. And, like it or not, he came up through > the IRL to get there. > And therein lies another overlooked fact: Perhaps most of the upcoming > IRL boys don't WANT to drive F1 cars. Their passion is oval racing. As > for the so-called "has been" F1 drivers in IRL (or CART)... well... > could it just be that (though their skills aren't what's required for > F1)... they just want to RACE? Seems to me that's a genuine racer. One > that won't quit because he can't be in the "Big Show" that has all the > glamour... but instead, he finds a car, a series, SOMETHING... and keeps > racing. Seems to me that's "heart". But what do I know? > Anyway, it saddens me to see drivers that lay everything on the line, > risking life and limb, REGARDLESS of venue, to be sneered at and > belittled because that venue doesn't happen to be the "Anointed One" of > the small person doing the sneering. To me, that's a real tradgedy. > Andre Ming

Andre/DK, AMEN (and thank you both)! -- JB

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>Andre, >Well put; that needed saying. >DK >> > >Okay folks, this has REALLY gotten ridiculous -- this is one of the >> > >longest threads I've seen in the R.A.S newsgroup yet. >> John, I see where you're coming from on the IRL/Indy issue. >> Unfortunately, it seems that nobody can change anybody's mindset about >> an issue on RAS. That's just the way it is. Save your sanity... you >> can't fend off all the incoming missles from the "other viewpoint". >> I've got caught up in them in the past... and it's fruitless. However, I >> never learn, so... >> As for IRL... I'm not real partial to it, but probably because it >> doesn't get much exposure, so I don't see it much. I will say this: >> ANYBODY that will jump into a high powered missle and hurl it around at >> those speeds deserves a TRUE racing enthusiats respect, league >> regardless. The "Billy Boats" take just as much, or more, risk as the >> "Schumacher's" or "Andretti's", etc. What saddens me is that even >> self-proclaimed/so-called "racing enthusiasts" can have the audacity to >> belittle the IRL's driver's efforts, and they are engaged in a >> potentially life threatning sport as much as any open wheeled driver. >> I have seen drivers with "heart" in each series. To think that a driver >> is less of a person than another because he drives in IRL is ludicrous. >> I remember watching Buddy Lazier almost collapse while in the Winner's >> Cirle at Indy a few years back. Why? Because he was driving with a >> (recovering) broken back. Think about that. 220+ MPH with a broken >> back... knowing that even a small mishap could leave him crippled for >> life. Yet, he took the risk. Why? Because he's a RACER through and >> through. >> Odd. I hear all this about that "no name" driver, etc. Hmmm... seems to >> me that every upcoming driver is a "no name". That's why's he's there... >> to prove his worth. Few knew squat about past "newbies" in CART. >> (Remember some of the hairbrained mistakes a certain newbie made in his >> rookie year in CART? It was a fellow by the name of Alex Zanardi.) But >> some went on to prove their talent... those that couldn't, fall by the >> wayside. That's racing. Ditto this this "Tony Stewart" kid... who's >> he? Well, it's being proven that he can indeed run with the best in his >> chosen ield: Nascar Winston Cup. And, like it or not, he came up through >> the IRL to get there. >> And therein lies another overlooked fact: Perhaps most of the upcoming >> IRL boys don't WANT to drive F1 cars. Their passion is oval racing. As >> for the so-called "has been" F1 drivers in IRL (or CART)... well... >> could it just be that (though their skills aren't what's required for >> F1)... they just want to RACE? Seems to me that's a genuine racer. One >> that won't quit because he can't be in the "Big Show" that has all the >> glamour... but instead, he finds a car, a series, SOMETHING... and keeps >> racing. Seems to me that's "heart". But what do I know? >> Anyway, it saddens me to see drivers that lay everything on the line, >> risking life and limb, REGARDLESS of venue, to be sneered at and >> belittled because that venue doesn't happen to be the "Anointed One" of >> the small person doing the sneering. To me, that's a real tradgedy. >> Andre Ming

Good points, but......... How many people do you think there are out there that wouldn't jump into an IRL car for a few laps at Indy - broken back and all! I know I would! And for not one cent either. Just for the hell of it! The world's full of real racers! The point you all seem to miss, and it's the main point, is that the Indy 500 is now run with inferior machinery by inferior race drivers. I'm an avid F1 fan but with the current trend to make everything slower it's giving me the yawns a little. *** technology was one of the best things about F1. The new Indy 500 suffers both from this AND inferior/unknown drivers. Big YAWN!

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> > >Okay folks, this has REALLY gotten ridiculous -- this is one of the > > >longest threads I've seen in the R.A.S newsgroup yet. > John, I see where you're coming from on the IRL/Indy issue. > Unfortunately, it seems that nobody can change anybody's mindset about > an issue on RAS. That's just the way it is. Save your sanity... you > can't fend off all the incoming missles from the "other viewpoint". > I've got caught up in them in the past... and it's fruitless. However, I > never learn, so... > As for IRL... I'm not real partial to it, but probably because it > doesn't get much exposure, so I don't see it much. I will say this: > ANYBODY that will jump into a high powered missle and hurl it around at > those speeds deserves a TRUE racing enthusiats respect, league > regardless. The "Billy Boats" take just as much, or more, risk as the > "Schumacher's" or "Andretti's", etc. What saddens me is that even > self-proclaimed/so-called "racing enthusiasts" can have the audacity to > belittle the IRL's driver's efforts, and they are engaged in a > potentially life threatning sport as much as any open wheeled driver. > I have seen drivers with "heart" in each series. To think that a driver > is less of a person than another because he drives in IRL is ludicrous. > I remember watching Buddy Lazier almost collapse while in the Winner's > Cirle at Indy a few years back. Why? Because he was driving with a > (recovering) broken back. Think about that. 220+ MPH with a broken > back... knowing that even a small mishap could leave him crippled for > life. Yet, he took the risk. Why? Because he's a RACER through and > through. > Odd. I hear all this about that "no name" driver, etc. Hmmm... seems to > me that every upcoming driver is a "no name". That's why's he's there... > to prove his worth. Few knew squat about past "newbies" in CART. > (Remember some of the hairbrained mistakes a certain newbie made in his > rookie year in CART? It was a fellow by the name of Alex Zanardi.) But > some went on to prove their talent... those that couldn't, fall by the > wayside. That's racing. Ditto this this "Tony Stewart" kid... who's > he? Well, it's being proven that he can indeed run with the best in his > chosen ield: Nascar Winston Cup. And, like it or not, he came up through > the IRL to get there. > And therein lies another overlooked fact: Perhaps most of the upcoming > IRL boys don't WANT to drive F1 cars. Their passion is oval racing. As > for the so-called "has been" F1 drivers in IRL (or CART)... well... > could it just be that (though their skills aren't what's required for > F1)... they just want to RACE? Seems to me that's a genuine racer. One > that won't quit because he can't be in the "Big Show" that has all the > glamour... but instead, he finds a car, a series, SOMETHING... and keeps > racing. Seems to me that's "heart". But what do I know? > Anyway, it saddens me to see drivers that lay everything on the line, > risking life and limb, REGARDLESS of venue, to be sneered at and > belittled because that venue doesn't happen to be the "Anointed One" of > the small person doing the sneering. To me, that's a real tradgedy. > Andre Ming

Of course the new Toyota Atlantic cars are so poorly constructed they deserve to be on the IRL schedule. M

Tony Stewart turned a lap of 226.683 mph in practice on Wednesday in one of the IRL's "slow" and "inferior" machines. This is over 3 mph faster than last year's pole speed of 223.503, set by Billy Boat (funny name, fast driver). The all-time record lap at Indy is 236.986 mph, set by Luyendyk in '96 (the last year fot the turbo-equipped engines). Stewart's 237.498 mph lap was done WITHOUT a turbocharger. That's a record for a normally-aspirated engine. And this is boring to you? What a shame . . . -- JB

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>> > >Okay folks, this has REALLY gotten ridiculous -- this is one of the >> > >longest threads I've seen in the R.A.S newsgroup yet. >> John, I see where you're coming from on the IRL/Indy issue. >> Unfortunately, it seems that nobody can change anybody's mindset about >> an issue on RAS. That's just the way it is. Save your sanity... you >> can't fend off all the incoming missles from the "other viewpoint". >> I've got caught up in them in the past... and it's fruitless. However, I >> never learn, so... >> As for IRL... I'm not real partial to it, but probably because it >> doesn't get much exposure, so I don't see it much. I will say this: >> ANYBODY that will jump into a high powered missle and hurl it around at >> those speeds deserves a TRUE racing enthusiats respect, league >> regardless. The "Billy Boats" take just as much, or more, risk as the >> "Schumacher's" or "Andretti's", etc. What saddens me is that even >> self-proclaimed/so-called "racing enthusiasts" can have the audacity to >> belittle the IRL's driver's efforts, and they are engaged in a >> potentially life threatning sport as much as any open wheeled driver. >> I have seen drivers with "heart" in each series. To think that a driver >> is less of a person than another because he drives in IRL is ludicrous. >> I remember watching Buddy Lazier almost collapse while in the Winner's >> Cirle at Indy a few years back. Why? Because he was driving with a >> (recovering) broken back. Think about that. 220+ MPH with a broken >> back... knowing that even a small mishap could leave him crippled for >> life. Yet, he took the risk. Why? Because he's a RACER through and >> through. >> Odd. I hear all this about that "no name" driver, etc. Hmmm... seems to >> me that every upcoming driver is a "no name". That's why's he's there... >> to prove his worth. Few knew squat about past "newbies" in CART. >> (Remember some of the hairbrained mistakes a certain newbie made in his >> rookie year in CART? It was a fellow by the name of Alex Zanardi.) But >> some went on to prove their talent... those that couldn't, fall by the >> wayside. That's racing. Ditto this this "Tony Stewart" kid... who's >> he? Well, it's being proven that he can indeed run with the best in his >> chosen ield: Nascar Winston Cup. And, like it or not, he came up through >> the IRL to get there. >> And therein lies another overlooked fact: Perhaps most of the upcoming >> IRL boys don't WANT to drive F1 cars. Their passion is oval racing. As >> for the so-called "has been" F1 drivers in IRL (or CART)... well... >> could it just be that (though their skills aren't what's required for >> F1)... they just want to RACE? Seems to me that's a genuine racer. One >> that won't quit because he can't be in the "Big Show" that has all the >> glamour... but instead, he finds a car, a series, SOMETHING... and keeps >> racing. Seems to me that's "heart". But what do I know? >> Anyway, it saddens me to see drivers that lay everything on the line, >> risking life and limb, REGARDLESS of venue, to be sneered at and >> belittled because that venue doesn't happen to be the "Anointed One" of >> the small person doing the sneering. To me, that's a real tradgedy. >> Andre Ming

John, The problem with the IRL is the amateur drivers it seems to attract and the huge number of accidents that cause injury to drivers. Fast does not mean good and fast is nothing without safe. I've watched IRL races on TV and the majority of the field seem like FFord drivers. Admittedly the front runners are good and would credit any field but Tony George needs to do something about the IRL fast. M

I say Billy Boat should be a hydroplane racer. Same with Lake Speed... :-) __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I have nothing really AGAINST the IRL, aside from the whole Indy 500 crap...I live in the Phoenix AZ area, so I go see the IRL race at PIR every year...it's great racing, but the turnout is dismal...I guess it just isn't as good seeing speeds we saw in 1990 from the CART guys (and the CART cars sound SOOO much better, IMO) when we could be seeing at least 20 mph faster, if not more. That's why I also go to the CART race at Penske's oval in Ontario, California :) -- Kirk Lane ICQ: 28171652 >On Tue, 18 May 1999 23:50:30 -0400, "Scott B. Husted" >>> On Tue, 18 May 1999 13:42:01 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" >>> >Winning $$$$ does not make it prestigious when you are competing against >>> >has been and never was drivers. >>> Here's words you'll NEVER hear any real race driver utter: >>> Driver: "No sir, I'm sorry -- I can't accept that million-dollar >>> purse. Your race just isn't prestigious enough, and I couldn't >>> tarnish my reputation as a driver by taking your money and making >>> myself a millioniaire. I'll go struggle in some other series . . ." >>So what you are saying is that IRL drivers are just collecting money at Indy >>because 99% of them dont have the talent to compete in a "real" series?? >>"Ill stay in the IRL so I can compete and make money because I dont have >>enough talent to run in CART and its top notch talent." ??? >No, that's what YOU'RE saying. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm the >one who thinks the IRL *is* a "real" prestigious series with top notch >talent, remember? >>> If a first-place prize of over a million dollars, and a total purse in >>> excess of 8 million isn't "prestigious," then I don't know what is. >>Scott Goodyear is leading the points after 2 races and has earned $217,650. >>An avg of $108,825 per race in IRL. >>I dont have any CART statistics handy. >I can't tell you how good it makes me feel to know that you follow the >IRL *that* closely -- I couldn't have come up with those figures off >the top of my head. Doesn't this illustrate to you the inherent >wrongness with your overall view of this whole issue? The IRL is a >series that you seem to loath, and yet you follow it closely enough >that you are able to retain more useless, esoteric information about >that series than an avowed, *** IRL fan? Seek help, man, seek >help. If you like something, watch it, follow it, devour it if you >will, but if you don't like something, then find better things to do >with your time. Take a walk, spend time with your loved ones, but >don't waste another second of your life following the IRL, worrying >about the state of the Indianapolis 500, or getting all twisted up >with negativity in general. Geez -- racing is SUPPPOSED to be >entertainment. >>> Speaking of prestigious, could you tell me, by chance, how much >>> Montoya's earned for any of his past 3 victories? I'm not questioning >>> his talent here, mind you -- he's a DEFINITE talent -- but I'd like to >>> put a dollar figure on this issue of "prestige," just for the record. >>Again.. you are equating "prestige" to dollars when i was arguing just the >>opposite. You need to compete against top talent for it to be prestigeous. >>The IRL and the Indy 500 arent even close. >Again, the issue of "top talent" is purely based on individual >opinion. Alex Zanaradi isn't competing against Dale Earnhardt or Jeff >Gordon, so he isn't (and hasn't) competed against the top talent, >which makes him second-rate . . . gimme a break! We're almost down to >the "my driver is better than your driver" level here. I feel an >uncontrollable urge to say, "Oh yeah? Well neener-neener . . ." >>-- >>Scott B. Husted >>PA-Scott on TEN >>[link lost in import: /~sbhusted] >>ICQ# 4395450

On Thu, 20 May 1999 20:13:18 -0700, "Kirk Lane"

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>I have nothing really AGAINST the IRL, aside from the whole Indy 500 >crap...I live in the Phoenix AZ area, so I go see the IRL race at PIR every >year...it's great racing, but the turnout is dismal...I guess it just isn't >as good seeing speeds we saw in 1990 from the CART guys (and the CART cars >sound SOOO much better, IMO) when we could be seeing at least 20 mph faster, >if not more. That's why I also go to the CART race at Penske's oval in >Ontario, California :)

Glad to see you "go both ways," Kirk. <G> Don't buy into the media hype, though -- speeds are up in the IRL (Greg Ray is now within 10 mph of Arie Luyendyk's all-time record at Indy -- Arie's record was set in a turbo-equipped Ford, and Ray is using the IRL's normally-aspirated Aurora). 20 mph faster at Indy would be suicidal. The speeds needed to come down, unfortunately, and that's what the IRL set out to do -- and the cars are STILL getting faster. Kind of interesting to watch -- and follow -- IMO. Also, next year's flat crank and 3.5 liter engine formula promises a new exhaust note that should be more pleasing. The IRL has listened to its fans and critics, and they want to get away from the current NASCAR-esque sound. They are promising that the new exhaust note will be completely unique -- nothing at all like F1, NASCAR, or CART, but definitely something that the fans will find pleasing. One last thing -- Roger Penske no longer owns Fontana, Michigan, or Nazareth. He sold them off recently, for some unknown reason. -- JB P.S. Keep 'em coming, guys -- we only need 20 or so more posts to break 100! <G>

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>-- >Kirk Lane >ICQ: 28171652 >>On Tue, 18 May 1999 23:50:30 -0400, "Scott B. Husted" >>>> On Tue, 18 May 1999 13:42:01 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" >>>> >Winning $$$$ does not make it prestigious when you are competing >against >>>> >has been and never was drivers. >>>> Here's words you'll NEVER hear any real race driver utter: >>>> Driver: "No sir, I'm sorry -- I can't accept that million-dollar >>>> purse. Your race just isn't prestigious enough, and I couldn't >>>> tarnish my reputation as a driver by taking your money and making >>>> myself a millioniaire. I'll go struggle in some other series . . ." >>>So what you are saying is that IRL drivers are just collecting money at >Indy >>>because 99% of them dont have the talent to compete in a "real" series?? >>>"Ill stay in the IRL so I can compete and make money because I dont have >>>enough talent to run in CART and its top notch talent." ??? >>No, that's what YOU'RE saying. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm the >>one who thinks the IRL *is* a "real" prestigious series with top notch >>talent, remember? >>>> If a first-place prize of over a million dollars, and a total purse in >>>> excess of 8 million isn't "prestigious," then I don't know what is. >>>Scott Goodyear is leading the points after 2 races and has earned >$217,650. >>>An avg of $108,825 per race in IRL. >>>I dont have any CART statistics handy. >>I can't tell you how good it makes me feel to know that you follow the >>IRL *that* closely -- I couldn't have come up with those figures off >>the top of my head. Doesn't this illustrate to you the inherent >>wrongness with your overall view of this whole issue? The IRL is a >>series that you seem to loath, and yet you follow it closely enough >>that you are able to retain more useless, esoteric information about >>that series than an avowed, *** IRL fan? Seek help, man, seek >>help. If you like something, watch it, follow it, devour it if you >>will, but if you don't like something, then find better things to do >>with your time. Take a walk, spend time with your loved ones, but >>don't waste another second of your life following the IRL, worrying >>about the state of the Indianapolis 500, or getting all twisted up >>with negativity in general. Geez -- racing is SUPPPOSED to be >>entertainment. >>>> Speaking of prestigious, could you tell me, by chance, how much >>>> Montoya's earned for any of his past 3 victories? I'm not questioning >>>> his talent here, mind you -- he's a DEFINITE talent -- but I'd like to >>>> put a dollar figure on this issue of "prestige," just for the record. >>>Again.. you are equating "prestige" to dollars when i was arguing just the >>>opposite. You need to compete against top talent for it to be >prestigeous. >>>The IRL and the Indy 500 arent even close. >>Again, the issue of "top talent" is purely based on individual >>opinion. Alex Zanaradi isn't competing against Dale Earnhardt or Jeff >>Gordon, so he isn't (and hasn't) competed against the top talent, >>which makes him second-rate . . . gimme a break! We're almost down to >>the "my driver is better than your driver" level here. I feel an >>uncontrollable urge to say, "Oh yeah? Well neener-neener . . ." >>>-- >>>Scott B. Husted >>>PA-Scott on TEN >>>[link lost in import: /~sbhusted] >>>ICQ# 4395450

LOL! ROTFPP! Which reminds me, what about*** Trickle?? <G>

"Dick Trickle" sounds like some sort of symptom for an obviously unpleasant desease. Andre Ming

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> > >I say Billy Boat should be a hydroplane racer. Same with Lake Speed... :-) > > LOL! ROTFPP! Which reminds me, what about*** Trickle?? <G> > "Dick Trickle" sounds like some sort of symptom for an obviously > unpleasant desease. > Andre Ming

I say: those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones ;-)

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> >>Tony Stewart turned a lap of 226.683 mph in practice on Wednesday in > >>one of the IRL's "slow" and "inferior" machines. This is over 3 mph > >>faster than last year's pole speed of 223.503, set by Billy Boat > >>(funny name, fast driver). The all-time record lap at Indy is 236.986 > >I say Billy Boat should be a hydroplane racer. Same with Lake Speed... :-) > LOL! ROTFPP! Which reminds me, what about*** Trickle?? <G>

I assume you made that one up! Or is he a friend of Biggus***us?

It's not made up. He's a NASCAR Winston Cup driver. Randy

> > > LOL! ROTFPP! Which reminds me, what about*** Trickle?? <G> > > I assume you made that one up! > It's not made up. He's a NASCAR Winston Cup driver. Right, so he IS a friend of Biggus***us then! [Sorry if that makes no sense: you'll have to watch Monty Python's Life of Brian :-) ] So what made Mr and Mrs Trickle decide to call their son Richard...?

I think he is actually Richard Jr. So that would make him "Little"*** Trickle.... oh the humanity.

I wonder if any of you here can remember back to the 70's and A motorcycle racer with an unfortunate name. He was a Dutch guy: His name..... Willie Vorlov I'm not joking here either.... Mark > I think he is actually Richard Jr. >So that would make him "Little"*** Trickle.... >oh the humanity.

> I wonder if any of you here can remember back to the 70's and A motorcycle > racer with an unfortunate name. He was a Dutch guy: His name..... > Willie Vorlov > I'm not joking here either.... A bit off topic here, but I do some computer tutoring and tech junk for a plumber named... Lee King I kid you not. ~daxe -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

<...> Apparently, they take much more, given the safety record. This says more to me about the quality of the racers and the machines, and the league in general (where it races, where it cuts corners, what it's priorities are). This "respect them because they are taking risks" idea doesn't cut it for me. If anything, it is a reminder that if someone puts up the money or potential exposure, there will always be people coming to take the challenge. The risk is part of the sport, but it isn't what keeps me coming to watch the races. <...> OK, let's just get to the crux of the problem: it isn't just that the IRL is, in terms of driver quality, a 3rd-tier sport- if that were all it were, that would be fine with me. But it is much bigger than this. The IRL was formed (by the rich and powerful fellas we know too well) as a sort of parasite CART, using CART's biggest race and a (from the outside) very similar formula in order to basically fool an not-too-closely-watching american public that it was "the genuine article." The beauty of this is that by running a much cheaper formula with many fewer races and much cheaper racers (including, importantly, some recognizeable, if retired, "big names"), is that the chief revenue (coming from the Indy500) gets spread over a select small number of people. The rich get much richer. Meanwhile, the average Joe has no idea which league is which, only cared about the Indy500 anyway, gets what he wanted, and CART's reputation and reason for being get's muddled in all the confusion, and it's popularity starts to stagnate. We're seeing this. Overall, the IRL isn't picking up new fans for open wheeled racing; open wheeled racing is simply withering on the vine while this money-making charade goes on. My opinion is that some rich people are getting much richer at the expense of a sport. And I can't blame them for that- it is pure capitalism. But I don't have to praise the glory that is IRL drivers, most of whom aren't so stupid not to realize that they are sucking the life out of the sport. What I can blame the IRL for is exactly what you seem to be praising them for: the innordinate risk at which they put their drivers (and fans) in. Whether it is the cars simply not being built up to the same standards as CART or F1, or the fact that 3rd tier racers are driving so far over their heads in speed, the IRL is simply not up to the safety standards we should be seeing.

No comment. ;-) Eldred p.s. although that sounds like a PERSONAL problem, to me... <g> __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> I think he is actually Richard Jr. >So that would make him "Little"*** Trickle.... >oh the humanity. Yeah, but what red-***ed male would allow himself to be called Little ***...? __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

[A newbie to this group weighing in] You all sound like a bunch of youngsters who think the CART era was the beginning of the Indianapolis 500. In fact, it has a long, rich history of being a "run-what-ya-brung" race (NOT a series). Drivers who could convince a car owner to allow them to race showed up in droves at the track in the month before the 500 and there weren't many guarantees about whether they would get rides or not. (BTW that was happening in Gasoline Alley last weekend as well) Many of these drivers were right out of the USAC dirt tracks and other minor-league oval races. The engineers labored all winter on their innovative cars (diesel, front wheel drive, all wheel drive, turbine) and went to scout for drivers in May. It wasn't until the 1970s that Pat Patrick, Penske et al. declared the Indycar formula and turned it into a series with the 500 as its crown jewel. Tony George (God bless him) wrestled the Indy 500 away from the money interests and the multi-megabuck teams and made it into a series where the up-and-coming drivers (mostly Americans) would get the experience and exposure to race at "Racing's Greatest Spectacle." I attended the IRL race at Phoenix this year and was at Indy qualifications last week. Yes, they DO race like the junior varsity because they are . . . just like about 75% of those drivers whose faces appear on the Bendix trophy. You want to see the heritage of the Indy 500, racing the way it used to be or the way the commercial interests of the big $$ boys want you to? IRL has got that heritage. CART appears to be a steppingstone series to F1. (BTW, do any of you remember racers like Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney and Jackie Stewart racing at Indy, NASCAR, F1 and anyplace they could get a ride? If you want to see the REAL heroes of racing, the real drivers, look at the entry lists from the 1960s) I love NASCAR, even though it is starting to look more staged than WWF wrestling. I am lukewarm on CART but IRL is the one place where you can say "I saw them there first." -the Diamondcutter 99 Dodge Ram 1500 QC 5.2L Sport 98 Swiss-Hutless/Yamaha KT100 racing kart 96 Invader/Briggs racing kart On Tue, 18 May 1999 23:50:30 -0400, "Scott B. Husted" <SNIP>

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>> On Tue, 18 May 1999 13:42:01 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" >> >Winning $$$$ does not make it prestigious when you are competing against >> >has been and never was drivers. >So what you are saying is that IRL drivers are just collecting money at Indy >because 99% of them dont have the talent to compete in a "real" series?? >"Ill stay in the IRL so I can compete and make money because I dont have >enough talent to run in CART and its top notch talent." ???

And I just love watching the road racers, the foreign drivers and the CART/F-1 has beens and wannabes kickin' a** on the dirt trackers. Asphalt's for racin' Dirt's for plantin' taters ;-) Go Arie! -don

And thats exciting? At this day and age of racing, its my opinion that that is just plain dangerous as anything. Why in the world would I want some scrum who may just barely make the field for ONE race, racing me at 220mph? There is no trust there, and you need trust going those speeds. This isn't the 40s, 50s, or 60s anymore. A non-points event, I might add, for the Indycar formula. Not to mention it was always sanctioned by USAC and Indycar/CART never said who could be or not be in it. USAC made the rules....if the Indy had been run under Indycar/CART guidelines solely, you think that Penske would have been able to make that non-turbo Mercedes? Nope, he wouldn't have. Indycars came and gave the Indy 500 some life when they came and raced there. No, Satan take him, George is a moron. Wrestled away from money interests? Right...what do you call the FIA with the agreement to build a bland F1 track for the US GP at Indy? Indy 500 is supposed to be "Racing's Greatest Spectacle". I see absolutely no where it says or has been claimed its "Racing's Greatest Spectacle for AMERICAN'S ONLY". And why in the world do I want to see up-and-coming drivers at "Racing's Greatest Spectacle" anyways? I'd like to see the top Indycar type drivers racing for the title of champion...and they still reside today in CART. Not to mention, I think a lot of people object and were rather annoyed with Tony's rules when he first made IRL about the mandated # of positions for IRL cars only. Which basically ruled out the names of the time such as Emmo, Unser, Andretti, Sullivan, etc from running the race and being able to qualify well. I DON'T WANT TO WATCH JUNIOR VARISTY RACING AT THE GREATEST SPECTACLE IN RACING. I want to watch the PROS, the best from whatever arena come and race in the Greatest Spectacle in Racing w/o regard to nationality. Hell, if I was going to choose a IRL racer as a favorite, I'd choose Arie. IRL ain't got heritage. IRL hasn't been around long enough. What I want is for Indy to have the best drivers in Indycar/openwheel racing racing at it, not junior varsity or the Lyn St. James of the world (that god she didn't qualify) CART has heritage. Nascar has more heritage and F1 has even more heritage. Apparently, by your reasoning, since CART is a steppingstone to F1, IRL is nothing more than a stepping stone to Nascar. :? Nonetheless, I seem to recall many of F1 veteran coming to CART along with a few CART boys going over to F1 (recently: Andretti, Villenue, Zanardi RETURNING to F1)..and who were F1 champions that were also CART champions? Emmo, Mario (who you mention later), Nigel Mansel (ugh, ok..may have a point there)....how many came over from F1? Eddie Cheever and whatshisname, anyways...where is Eddie Cheever now? IRL. Why? Couldn't get a ride. No, but I remember Emmo and Al Unser Jr running at Indy side by side. I remember the closest finish at the Indy 500. I remember Gordon Johncock winning at Indy. I remember Michael Andretti repeating over and over again IRL, like Busch, like Toyota Atlantic, like IndyLights, like F3000, is where you can see the Junior Varsity play (plus a few veterans).

First off, I know a little bit about racing history. Secondly, Dan Gurney for President!!! <G> I run the Eagle exclusively in GPL mainly because of Dan. Thirdly... The IRL will always be second rate at best and may Tony George have eyes like an eagle and his wife warts like a hog! <G> The point being the Indy 500 has always been the place where everyone wanted to win! The place where the BEST gathered to compete. Todays IRL 500 does not even come close to having the best. Hell, did Billy Boat finally make it around a lap?? ESPN IRL Highlights look like an adverti***t for the "And they walked away" video! Tony George did NOT return Indy to its previous glamour. It is not and will never be again the "bring what you got" race. All Tony George did was ruin the Indy 500 due to his oversized ego. Will I watch the IRL 500? I will probably check in on it throughout the afternoon to see how Tony Stewart is doing. I will not sit down and watch the race as a whole. Its a total shame. I have always been a NASCAR fan and casually followed "Indy Cars". However, I always remember getting pumped and e***d to spend the afternoon watching thy Indy 500. For me, it was an event you planned for just like the Daytona 500 and the SuperBowl. Take the phone off the hook. Make sure you have your favorite snacks and beverages. Put in a high quality VCR Tape. etc etc. Now, Im lucky if I find the will to turn the TV on to check the standings during the race =( No interest what so ever in finding out how a bunch of has beens and never was drivers are doing. Maybe I'll turn the radio on while Im washing the car. May the IRL follow in the footsteps of the USFL!! Scott PA-Scott -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450

Naw....save the IRL...just get it the HELL out of Indy. I'm a race fan from the early 70's. I cut my racing teeth watching ABC's Wide World of Sports. Because of that, I had no clue the Big Nascar Cars ran at little bitty tracks like Bristol and Martinsville. I read Sports Illustrated like the Bible and believe me...the ONLY racing coverage to make it in that rag was the Indy 500. I practically stole the library's copy of Popular Mechanics so I could drink in the photo's and paintings of the Vels-Parnelli Jones V wing cars of Unser and Andretti. But I also saw Chaparalls, and McClarens in Can Am. I read about Mustangs, Camaro's and Barracuda's in Trans Am. I began to enjoy the twisty racing immensly. CART's road racing combined with the ovals and streets gave me some of the best race viewing I have ever seen. But I realize what an important place the Indy race used to occupy in the world of auto racing. Sadly, TG(whose name I WILL not speak) up and used "HIS" race to try and cow the CART owners into buying into the IRL idea. Which was a good idea.... I'm all for more racing. But he used his financial club(the Indy race) to try and instantly EVOLVE his series into a mature entity. BAD IDEA. I said back then, and I'll say it now... The Indianapolis 500 should have remained an open event. Then he could have brought in an IRL race either in June or September, do you think Jeff Gordon cares that the race he won at the Brickyard WASN'T the Indy 500? dave henrie

You're right, Chris . . .there is little to disagree with you on any of your points But it's also important to recognize that removing one non-points race from the schedule has not harmed US auto racing in general or CART in particular (CART has shot themselves in the foot so many times -- starting with the Greatest Debacle In Racing, the US 500 in 1995 ('96?) -- that they have more to fear from Bill France than Tony George.) The point is that this is not an either/or situation. CART has a full international schedule on ovals and road courses. The IRL has returned the Indy 500 to many of its historical roots and made it a series where cubic dollars are not the most important factor in fielding a winning car. You want CART? You've got CART. You want NASCAR? You've got it. You want varsity, JV, megabucks or spec racers, you have it all. And you have more choices today than you did before the formation of the IRL (plus, those loud engines are really cool) -the Diamondcutter 99 Dodge Ram 1500 QC 5.2L Sport 98 Swiss-Hutless/Yamaha KT100 racing kart 96 Invader/Briggs racing kart On Wed, 26 May 1999 07:45:24 -0500, "Chris \"Hollywood\" Schletter"

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>> In fact, it has a long, rich history of being a "run-what-ya-brung" >> race (NOT a series). Drivers who could convince a car owner to allow >> them to race showed up in droves at the track in the month before the >> 500 and there weren't many guarantees about whether they would get >> rides or not. >And thats exciting? At this day and age of racing, its my opinion that that >is just plain dangerous as anything. Why in the world would I want some >scrum who may just barely make the field for ONE race, racing me at 220mph? >There is no trust there, and you need trust going those speeds. This isn't >the 40s, 50s, or 60s anymore.

<SNIP>

Or the World Football League.....now known as NFL Europe. IRL becomes CART Oval? :P Btw, Scott...careful in washing that 67 Eagle GP car, it doesn't handle water very well. :)

->> The Indianapolis 500 should have remained an open event. Well just for grins...who are the owners of the cars Stewart and Gordon are running? Aren't they already IRL teams? Do the CART owners have the resources to stop work on the CHAMP car development and start up an IRL car project. (Maybe if Ganassi did this the rest of the league will stand a chance) dave henrie

On Wed, 26 May 1999 08:15:11 -0700, "ddjhenrie"

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>>May the IRL follow in the footsteps of the USFL!! >>Scott B. Husted >>ICQ# 4395450 > Naw....save the IRL...just get it the HELL out of Indy. I'm a race fan >from the early 70's. I cut my racing teeth watching ABC's Wide World >of Sports. Because of that, I had no clue the Big Nascar Cars ran at little >bitty tracks like Bristol and Martinsville. > I read Sports Illustrated like the Bible and believe me...the ONLY racing >coverage to make it in that rag was the Indy 500. I practically stole the >library's >copy of Popular Mechanics so I could drink in the photo's and paintings of >the >Vels-Parnelli Jones V wing cars of Unser and Andretti. > But I also saw Chaparalls, and McClarens in Can Am. I read about >Mustangs, Camaro's >and Barracuda's in Trans Am. I began to enjoy the twisty racing immensly. >CART's road racing combined with the ovals and streets gave me some of the >best race viewing I have ever seen. > But I realize what an important place the Indy race used to occupy in the >world of auto racing. Sadly, TG(whose name I WILL not speak) up and used >"HIS" race to try and cow the CART owners into buying into the IRL idea. >Which was a good idea.... I'm all for more racing. But he used his >financial >club(the Indy race) to try and instantly EVOLVE his series into a mature >entity. > BAD IDEA. > I said back then, and I'll say it now... > The Indianapolis 500 should have remained an open event.

Geez -- here we go again. The Indianapolis 500 IS an open event. Just ask Tony Stewart or Robby Gordon. There is no more 25/8 qualifying rule -- if you put in an entry, bring a car and engine that's up-to-spec, and have a properly licensed driver at the wheel, you can try to qualify for the Indy 500, same as always. Aside from the brief period of time with the 25/8 rule the first two years, it's the same as it's always been.

AMEN!

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>-the Diamondcutter >99 Dodge Ram 1500 QC 5.2L Sport >98 Swiss-Hutless/Yamaha KT100 racing kart >96 Invader/Briggs racing kart >On Wed, 26 May 1999 07:45:24 -0500, "Chris \"Hollywood\" Schletter" >>> In fact, it has a long, rich history of being a "run-what-ya-brung" >>> race (NOT a series). Drivers who could convince a car owner to allow >>> them to race showed up in droves at the track in the month before the >>> 500 and there weren't many guarantees about whether they would get >>> rides or not. >>And thats exciting? At this day and age of racing, its my opinion that that >>is just plain dangerous as anything. Why in the world would I want some >>scrum who may just barely make the field for ONE race, racing me at 220mph? >>There is no trust there, and you need trust going those speeds. This isn't >>the 40s, 50s, or 60s anymore. ><SNIP>

On Wed, 26 May 1999 20:13:28 -0700, "ddjhenrie"

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>->> The Indianapolis 500 should have remained an open event. >>Geez -- here we go again. The Indianapolis 500 IS an open event. >>Just ask Tony Stewart or Robby Gordon. There is no more 25/8 >>qualifying rule -- if you put in an entry, bring a car and engine >>that's up-to-spec, and have a properly licensed driver at the wheel, >>you can try to qualify for the Indy 500, same as always. Aside from >>the brief period of time with the 25/8 rule the first two years, it's >>the same as it's always been. > Well just for grins...who are the owners of the cars >Stewart and Gordon are running?

Stewart co-owns his own team with Larry Curry. They ran 1 car at WDW in January; they're running a 2nd car at Indy with Dr. Jack as the driver (talk about irony). Gordon's co-owner is John Menard in BOTH the IRL and CART.

Sure it is...problem is that it should never have had the 25/8 rule. That alienated a lot of fans, a lot of manufacturers, a lot of teams and a lot of drivers. And for the CART boys, it means coming in with a totally different package thats actually a 'down-to-IRL-spec'. Not to mention it would mean running in a rival league's event. How many teams of Nascar/CART/IRL/F1/et al do you see competing with the exact same driver in multiple leagues? Not many...would have been better if George had kept the same formula as before where CART/Indycars happened to run at the brickyard but it wasn't part of their actual series. Now its an IRL race, not a USAC (or other neutral body) sanctioned EVENT. Wasn't there also a rule that you had to run in so many IRL events in order to qualify for the 500 or did that get ditched with the 25/8 rule? 'Sides, Robby Gordon isn't much of a driver anyways. :?

On Thu, 27 May 1999 07:10:52 -0500, "Chris \"Hollywood\" Schletter" >Sure it is...problem is that it should never have had the 25/8 rule. That >alienated a lot of fans, a lot of manufacturers, a lot of teams and a lot of >drivers. And for the CART boys, it means coming in with a totally different >package thats actually a 'down-to-IRL-spec'. No reason a CART driver couldn't try to find a ride the same way most everybody else does at Indy . . . cruising Gasoline Alley and shake hands with all the owners It's unfortunate that so many people consider CART and IRL "rivals." They are the two major open-wheel racing formulas based in the US. They were at one time but don't seem to be competing for TV, for sponsorships or for fans to fill the stands right now. Home Depot is sponsoring Tony Stewart in both Winston Cup and IRL (which pissed John Menard off ROYALLY), but not with the same team, just the same sponsor. Frankly, I would love to see Jeff "paint boy" Gordon on the grid in the 500. He knows the track, but is he the versatile driver that Andretti, Gurney, Allison and Stewart are? Here's an idea . . . dump the IROC in favor of putting all those guys in IRL cars on Memorial Day. Gordon, Earnhardt, Montoya . . .Why not? If that were the case, there would only be about 20 drivers in the race Sunday AMEN!! -the Diamondcutter 99 Dodge Ram 1500 QC 5.2L Sport 98 Swiss-Hutless/Yamaha KT100 racing kart 96 Invader/Briggs racing kart

>On Thu, 27 May 1999 07:10:52 -0500, "Chris \"Hollywood\" Schletter" >>Sure it is...problem is that it should never have had the 25/8 rule. That >>alienated a lot of fans, a lot of manufacturers, a lot of teams and a lot of >>drivers. And for the CART boys, it means coming in with a totally different >>package thats actually a 'down-to-IRL-spec'. >No reason a CART driver couldn't try to find a ride the same way most >everybody else does at Indy . . . cruising Gasoline Alley and shake >hands with all the owners I agree we should NEVER have seen the 25/8 rule. But to the 2nd point. Say I'm Roger Penske and I'm paying Al Jr. a whole lot of millions of dollars to race my car. Do you think I will be pleased if Al goes to Indy and breaks a leg? Do you think I will be happy that I'm paying a guy to devote his driving to a series I've entered a car in, only to see him driving for some other guy? Do you think Pepsi would be pleased if Jeff Gordon jumped out of his Dupont car and called for a Coke? I can see the possibility of driving both series, but If MY MONEY is on the line, the jockey's priority and 100% attention had better be on my car... dave henrie -- On May 17, 1999 A Whale was killed off the coast of Washington State. The Whale was killed in the name of Tradition.....I say.... %&#& Tradition!

> In fact, it has a long, rich history of being a "run-what-ya-brung" > race (NOT a series)....... > (BTW, do any of you remember racers like Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney > and Jackie Stewart racing at Indy, NASCAR, F1 and anyplace they could > get a ride? If you want to see the REAL heroes of racing, the real > drivers, look at the entry lists from the 1960s) Indy's "long rich history", as your list of Andretti, Gurney, & Stewart so aptly show, is one that the 33 fastest machines to show up made the field. Now, lets take everybody together, IRL & CART, and the fastest 33 make the field. The rest go home or watch from the sidelines. Problem is, these are not the fastest 33 out there, and we all know it! God bless the IRL, don't get me wrong. All racing divisions have their place. Just that when it comes to Indy, it don't belong there. It hasn't earned it in the speed department. And thats what racing is all about, my friend, *speed*. Especially Indy. -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Unarmed and unafraid!

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> Geez -- here we go again. The Indianapolis 500 IS an open event. > Just ask Tony Stewart or Robby Gordon. There is no more 25/8 > qualifying rule -- if you put in an entry, bring a car and engine > that's up-to-spec, and have a properly licensed driver at the wheel, > you can try to qualify for the Indy 500, same as always. Aside from > the brief period of time with the 25/8 rule the first two years, it's > the same as it's always been.

We'll agree on this as soon as the CART boys can show up for qualifying in their CART machines. Its *not* open in any sense of the word. Mr. George has used a monopoly power of sorts to dictate his series is the one that runs in the event, wrestling it away from the machines that ran it for years. Had this been in the interest of more speed, so be it because thats racing. But no, it went the other way. But don't be fooled, this thing is not *open*. -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Unarmed & unafraid!

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>> Geez -- here we go again. The Indianapolis 500 IS an open event. >> Just ask Tony Stewart or Robby Gordon. There is no more 25/8 >> qualifying rule -- if you put in an entry, bring a car and engine >> that's up-to-spec, and have a properly licensed driver at the wheel, >> you can try to qualify for the Indy 500, same as always. Aside from >> the brief period of time with the 25/8 rule the first two years, it's >> the same as it's always been. >We'll agree on this as soon as the CART boys can show up for qualifying in their >CART machines. Its *not* open in any sense of the word.

Hasn't been for a long time. I, for one, would like Colin Chapman to return from the dead bringing some 4WD turbines, but they won't allow that either. I bet a Ferrari 333SP would be competitive too, but that isn't to spec. CART cars are a strawman argument. What everyone *really* wants to see is the Indy 500 back as a points paying F1 championship event, where F1 cars are allowed to compete straight up even, and the schedule allows the F1 guys to test and qualify. "We'll kick yer butts!" "Charming. That means we'll be in front of you, I suppose?" -dB

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>> Geez -- here we go again. The Indianapolis 500 IS an open event. >> Just ask Tony Stewart or Robby Gordon. There is no more 25/8 >> qualifying rule -- if you put in an entry, bring a car and engine >> that's up-to-spec, and have a properly licensed driver at the wheel, >> you can try to qualify for the Indy 500, same as always. Aside from >> the brief period of time with the 25/8 rule the first two years, it's >> the same as it's always been. >We'll agree on this as soon as the CART boys can show up for qualifying in their >CART machines. Its *not* open in any sense of the word. Mr. George has used a >monopoly power of sorts to dictate his series is the one that runs in the event, >wrestling it away from the machines that ran it for years. Had this been in the >interest of more speed, so be it because thats racing. But no, it went the other >way. But don't be fooled, this thing is not *open*.

So CART's a closed series, too, huh? It must be, because I don't think an IRL team could show up and qualify their IRL machines. Ditto an F1 team. Geez . . .

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>>> Geez -- here we go again. The Indianapolis 500 IS an open event. >>> Just ask Tony Stewart or Robby Gordon. There is no more 25/8 >>> qualifying rule -- if you put in an entry, bring a car and engine >>> that's up-to-spec, and have a properly licensed driver at the wheel, >>> you can try to qualify for the Indy 500, same as always. Aside from >>> the brief period of time with the 25/8 rule the first two years, it's >>> the same as it's always been. >>We'll agree on this as soon as the CART boys can show up for qualifying in their >>CART machines. Its *not* open in any sense of the word. >Hasn't been for a long time. I, for one, would like Colin Chapman to >return from the dead bringing some 4WD turbines, but they won't allow >that either. I bet a Ferrari 333SP would be competitive too, but >that isn't to spec. >CART cars are a strawman argument. >What everyone *really* wants to see is the Indy 500 back as a points >paying F1 championship event, where F1 cars are allowed to compete >straight up even, and the schedule allows the F1 guys to test and >qualify. >"We'll kick yer butts!"

With a predicted 180 mph top speed on the front straight, my guess is the F1 guys would get THEIR butts kicked! <G> Good post, though.

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>>What everyone *really* wants to see is the Indy 500 back as a points >>paying F1 championship event, where F1 cars are allowed to compete >>straight up even, and the schedule allows the F1 guys to test and >>qualify. >>"We'll kick yer butts!" >With a predicted 180 mph top speed on the front straight, my guess is >the F1 guys would get THEIR butts kicked! <G> >>"Charming. That means we'll be in front of you, I suppose?"

I am quite sure the F1 guys could figure out how to change their gear ratios and lower downforce to get the terminal speed up. The HP difference isn't as great as is used to be, and the F1 cars are carrying less frontal area. Whether they'd still be running after the 1/2 way point is a different question... -dB

With a predicted 180 mph top speed on the front straight, my guess is the F1 guys would get THEIR butts kicked! <G> -------------- This makes no sense to me (and of course, it may well be simply a joke), so I ask: Is this a prediction from Ron Dennis, et al., or yourself? --david

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>>>What everyone *really* wants to see is the Indy 500 back as a points >>>paying F1 championship event, where F1 cars are allowed to compete >>>straight up even, and the schedule allows the F1 guys to test and >>>qualify. >>>"We'll kick yer butts!" >>With a predicted 180 mph top speed on the front straight, my guess is >>the F1 guys would get THEIR butts kicked! <G> >>>"Charming. That means we'll be in front of you, I suppose?" >I am quite sure the F1 guys could figure out how to change their >gear ratios and lower downforce to get the terminal speed up. The >HP difference isn't as great as is used to be, and the F1 cars >are carrying less frontal area. Whether they'd still be running >after the 1/2 way point is a different question... >-dB

I agree -- but the 180 mph figure is the predicted top speed for the F1 cars using their existing aero package on the new road course. I'd love to see what they could do on the oval with a proper "superspeedway"-type wing configuration. -- JB

>With a predicted 180 mph top speed on the front straight, my guess is >the F1 guys would get THEIR butts kicked! <G> >-------------- >This makes no sense to me (and of course, it may well be simply a joke), so >I ask: Is this a prediction from Ron Dennis, et al., or yourself? >--david No joke at all -- nor is it mere idle speculation on my part. I think I got this info from Kevin Forbes, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway's Director of Engineering and Construction. It was either him or Brian Barnhart, the IRL's Director of Racing Operations. Either way, the folks at IMS predict that with F1's current aero package, the F1 cars should be hitting 180 - 190 at the end of the main straight going into T1 at the new Indy F1 track. This had to be calculated and factored into the track plans as they designed the barrier for T1. FWIW, the current track's T4 will provide runoff area if the F1 cars overturn the F1 track's T1 area, so there's not going to be much area in that location, I don't think, since the T4 banking will provide a safe "runoff" area at those speeds (the F1 cars should be able to handle the turn at that speed, and rather than bogging down in a sand trap if they overshoot T1, they'll just zoom on into T4 and then they'll have a looooong way to go to get back on the track <G>). Of interest to all you sim fans, I noticed that on the Indianapolis Motor Speedway add-on track for GP2 (a version of the existing oval, not a new road course add-on), I could only get the GP2 F1 cars to top out at about 188 mph, even with the wings zeroed out. I thought this was weird, but when I heard the predicted top end for the F1 cars from the folks at IMS, I really had to chuckle -- and I was stunned at how AMAZINGLY accurate the F1 cars in the GP2 sim had to be in order to properly model the top end of the F1 cars at a track configuration that wasn't even taken into account when the sim was developed. And GP2 is a fairly "old" sim, too. Wow. BTW, it's nice to be able to put aside all the IRL vs. CART feud for a moment to share some race- and race sim-related info with fellow fans. We should try doing that more often. ;-) -- JB

> >You want CART? You've got CART. You want NASCAR? You've got it. > >You want varsity, JV, megabucks or spec racers, you have it all. And > >you have more choices today than you did before the formation of the > >IRL (plus, those loud engines are really cool) > AMEN! More like... ahem! Because what we don't have is the best drivers, in the best cars on the most exciting track in the world. I'll bet you lot were on the Microsoft side of the fence when CPR was released. Simple question - Would it be preferable that the IRL never came into being and Indy was STILL what it WAS? My very simple, no brainer answer is FOR FRIGGIN SURE. And my very simple, no brainer conclusion about those who have a different answer is that they obviously have a*** in their ear. It's 2nd rate drivers in 2nd rate cars and it's just that simple. The rest is bullshit.

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> Of interest to all you sim fans, I noticed that on the Indianapolis > Motor Speedway add-on track for GP2 (a version of the existing oval, > not a new road course add-on), I could only get the GP2 F1 cars to top > out at about 188 mph, even with the wings zeroed out. I thought this > was weird, but when I heard the predicted top end for the F1 cars from > the folks at IMS, I really had to chuckle -- and I was stunned at how > AMAZINGLY accurate the F1 cars in the GP2 sim had to be in order to > properly model the top end of the F1 cars at a track configuration > that wasn't even taken into account when the sim was developed. And > GP2 is a fairly "old" sim, too. Wow. > BTW, it's nice to be able to put aside all the IRL vs. CART feud for a > moment to share some race- and race sim-related info with fellow fans. > We should try doing that more often. > ;-) > -- JB

John, you must have the version of GP2 distributed by the IRL. Complete garbage. I think we can look on most of your posts as simple comedy after this one. At least your consistant.

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>> Of interest to all you sim fans, I noticed that on the Indianapolis >> Motor Speedway add-on track for GP2 (a version of the existing oval, >> not a new road course add-on), I could only get the GP2 F1 cars to top >> out at about 188 mph, even with the wings zeroed out. I thought this >> was weird, but when I heard the predicted top end for the F1 cars from >> the folks at IMS, I really had to chuckle -- and I was stunned at how >> AMAZINGLY accurate the F1 cars in the GP2 sim had to be in order to >> properly model the top end of the F1 cars at a track configuration >> that wasn't even taken into account when the sim was developed. And >> GP2 is a fairly "old" sim, too. Wow. >> BTW, it's nice to be able to put aside all the IRL vs. CART feud for a >> moment to share some race- and race sim-related info with fellow fans. >> We should try doing that more often. >> ;-) >> -- JB > John, you must have the version of GP2 distributed by the IRL. >Complete garbage. I think we can look on most of your posts as simple >comedy after this one. At least your consistant.

"Complete garbage"?? What the hell are you talking about? Have you ever checked out the IMS track that somebody made with the GP2 game? This wasn't an official retail track "add-on," but something somebody did on their own as a track editing exercise, I believe. On THAT track, I was never able to get the F1 cars in GP2 to go over 200 mph. Have you tried this track and received better results? I viewed the Indy track for GP2 as a mere novelty and I never spent much time with it, so there may have been more speed to be had, but with the wings zeroed out and no need to lift off the throttle in the turns, I didn't see much room for more speed, and I wasn't able to do any better. If you have achieved better results at the Indy "fantasy" add-on track with GP2, I'd love to hear about it. If not, then try this: Feel free to insert your penile appendage into your rectal area and proceed to have *** with yourself. You want comedy -- THAT's comedy (albeit perhaps not "simple" enough for your taste). -- JB

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>> >You want CART? You've got CART. You want NASCAR? You've got it. >> >You want varsity, JV, megabucks or spec racers, you have it all. And >> >you have more choices today than you did before the formation of the >> >IRL (plus, those loud engines are really cool) >> AMEN! > More like... ahem! Because what we don't have is the best drivers, in >the best cars on the most exciting track in the world. I'll bet you lot >were on the Microsoft side of the fence when CPR was released. > Simple question - Would it be preferable that the IRL never came >into being and Indy was STILL what it WAS? > My very simple, no brainer answer is FOR FRIGGIN SURE. And my very >simple, no brainer conclusion about those who have a different answer is >that they obviously have a*** in their ear. It's 2nd rate drivers in >2nd rate cars and it's just that simple. The rest is bullshit.

Well, Byron, I'd expect nothing less than a simple, no-brainer answer from you, so at least you're consistent. FWIW, I'd wash that thing before putting it in my ear if I were you -- especially if you followed my previous recommendation about your rectal area. -- JB

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> Simple question - Would it be preferable that the IRL never came > into being and Indy was STILL what it WAS? > My very simple, no brainer answer is FOR FRIGGIN SURE. And my very > simple, no brainer conclusion about those who have a different answer is > that they obviously have a*** in their ear. It's 2nd rate drivers in > 2nd rate cars and it's just that simple. The rest is bullshit.

Its gotta be said. AMEN, BYRON!! -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Unarmed & unafraid!

> So CART's a closed series, too, huh? It must be, because I don't > think an IRL team could show up and qualify their IRL machines. Ditto > an F1 team. > Geez . . . C'mon now! This one might make sense if the discussion was on individual series'. Its not. Its about *ONE* legendary race. I think David Brower more had the idea. Bring em all, bring what ya got. The 33 quickest are in. The rest- SEE YA! Thats the way is used to be, & should still be. Sheeesh! -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Unarmed & unafraid!

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>On Fri, 28 May 1999 11:35:57 GMT, >>With a predicted 180 mph top speed on the front straight, my guess is >>the F1 guys would get THEIR butts kicked! <G> >uhhh.. John, I laugh in your general direction..

Okay, I stand corrected -- looks like I mis-heard the 180 mph top speed remark. It seems the F1 cars should reach a top speed of 200 mph on the front straight. This is according to the Speedway's director of engineering and construction, Kevin Forbes (who designed the Indy F1 track). This is from the Indy F1 Web site (www.indyf1.com): <SNIP> Forbes calculated through computer imaging that an F1 car can circle the circuit in 73 seconds, a speed average of 127 mph. Billy Boat completed the quickest qualifying lap for the 1998 Indianapolis 500 on the oval last May in 40.076 seconds at 224.573 mph, a record for Pep Boys Indy Racing League cars. F1 cars are expected to reach 195 mph at the Yard of Bricks and a top speed of 200 mph just before entrance to their Turn 1. The drivers will have to gear down to 55 mph at Turn 9, a right-hand turn just south of the golf course and will re-enter the oval over Tunnel 3, located at the entrance of Turn 2, at 100 mph and begin accelerating. <END SNIP> It looks like the F1 cars might be able to top 200 with their current aero package if they were given the entire oval to build up speed for an entire lap. THAT'S something I'd like to see! -- JB

Your like David Fisher with a REAL mean streak! Weird.

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> Feel free to insert your penile appendage into your rectal area and > proceed to have *** with yourself. > You want comedy -- THAT's comedy (albeit perhaps not "simple" enough > for your taste). > -- JB

Okay, I admit that I was out of line, and I'd like to apologize to you for that. Your remarks about my post being "complete garbage" and that my posts could be regarded as "simple comedy" really ticked me off. I was trying to share some inside info about the F1 course that the rest of you might be interested in, along with some firsthand experience with GP2 and the fantasy Indianapolis Motor Speedway add-on track. Given the fact that I was merely sharing information and not attacking any series, drivers, owners, fans, or fellow newsgroup members, I took offense at your comments. I got a little reactionary (being an IRL fan makes one somewhat defensive at times), and for that I apologize. I was out of line, and I'm sorry for being such an ass. One of the reasons I get so testy, though, is because no matter how respectful I try to be of other series -- INCLUDING CART -- there's always somebody waiting to shove some vile sentiment about the IRL down my throat. It's frustrating to say the least. At any rate, I'll be sitting in the stands (and cruising through the garages and the press room) at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway today, and drivers will be racing pointy-nosed cars around the Brickyard for the right to get their face on the Borg-Warner Trophy, so for me, it's a bit like Christmas morning. Merry Christmas everybody -- and peace on earth, goodwill towards men (and women) . . . and CART fans <G>, as well as all race fans everywhere. May we have safe racing today everywhere there are cars running fast in competition. Oh, yeah -- happy Memorial Day (a day early). No matter what you do this weekend, take a moment to remember the reason for the holiday. -- JB

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>> Feel free to insert your penile appendage into your rectal area and >> proceed to have *** with yourself. >> You want comedy -- THAT's comedy (albeit perhaps not "simple" enough >> for your taste). >> -- JB

It's amazing what can happen in a week. I've been lurking here for a couple weeks and was impressed with the quality and caliber of the posts and the thinking behind them, especially in regard to the lengthy N2000/N3/GPL physics engine posts. There was plenty of carefully considered, thoughtful insight and the kind of things that (as I was telling some friends) that Papyrus should be paying attention to. "Damn," I said, "these guys are smart. They're my kind of people." Now, a week later, this community discussion thread has become "if you don't agree with me, you are stupid, have a *** in your ear (whatever that means) and nyah nyah nyah. What happened? I'll probably continue lurking because there is some decent information but the respect level dropped down a notch or two on my part . . . and probably lots of others who visit here as well. I love racing. I like the Indy 500 and would probably watch if the drivers were Brownie Troop 356 being rewarded for their cookie sales with a ride on a sunny Sunday. I like CART. I like NASCAR. I support the Sim companies with my purchases, I support the leagues with ticket sales and I support the sponsors with my pocketbook and with letters saying "I buy your products because you support racing." So if I disagree with your sanctimonious ideals and therefore have a *** in my ear, so be it. Dick or not, I can still strap my helmet on and bang wheels on the raccetrack and on the sims, too (but without the helmet :)) We're all here for the same thing. fast cars. -the Diamondcutter

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>[A newbie to this group weighing in] >You all sound like a bunch of youngsters who think the CART era was >the beginning of the Indianapolis 500. >In fact, it has a long, rich history of being a "run-what-ya-brung" >race (NOT a series). Drivers who could convince a car owner to allow >them to race showed up in droves at the track in the month before the >500 and there weren't many guarantees about whether they would get >rides or not. (BTW that was happening in Gasoline Alley last weekend >as well) >Many of these drivers were right out of the USAC dirt tracks and other >minor-league oval races. The engineers labored all winter on their >innovative cars (diesel, front wheel drive, all wheel drive, turbine) >and went to scout for drivers in May. >It wasn't until the 1970s that Pat Patrick, Penske et al. declared the >Indycar formula and turned it into a series with the 500 as its crown >jewel. >Tony George (God bless him) wrestled the Indy 500 away from the money >interests and the multi-megabuck teams and made it into a series where >the up-and-coming drivers (mostly Americans) would get the experience >and exposure to race at "Racing's Greatest Spectacle." >I attended the IRL race at Phoenix this year and was at Indy >qualifications last week. Yes, they DO race like the junior varsity >because they are . . . just like about 75% of those drivers whose >faces appear on the Bendix trophy. >You want to see the heritage of the Indy 500, racing the way it used >to be or the way the commercial interests of the big $$ boys want you >to? IRL has got that heritage. CART appears to be a steppingstone >series to F1. >(BTW, do any of you remember racers like Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney >and Jackie Stewart racing at Indy, NASCAR, F1 and anyplace they could >get a ride? If you want to see the REAL heroes of racing, the real >drivers, look at the entry lists from the 1960s) >I love NASCAR, even though it is starting to look more staged than WWF >wrestling. I am lukewarm on CART but IRL is the one place where you >can say "I saw them there first." >-the Diamondcutter >99 Dodge Ram 1500 QC 5.2L Sport >98 Swiss-Hutless/Yamaha KT100 racing kart >96 Invader/Briggs racing kart >On Tue, 18 May 1999 23:50:30 -0400, "Scott B. Husted" ><SNIP> >>> On Tue, 18 May 1999 13:42:01 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" >>> >Winning $$$$ does not make it prestigious when you are competing against >>> >has been and never was drivers. >>So what you are saying is that IRL drivers are just collecting money at Indy >>because 99% of them dont have the talent to compete in a "real" series?? >>"Ill stay in the IRL so I can compete and make money because I dont have >>enough talent to run in CART and its top notch talent." ???

Amen! I think what we're dealing with on the IRL/CART issue is passionate people who are too lazy to post in the RASI newsgroup, where these sort of passionate -- and sometimes venomous -- racing-related (NOT sim-related) posts should go. I'm as responsible as anyone for "rising to the occasion" and responding to the various IRL slights, and for that I apologize. This IS a great place for sim-related info, so don't be turned off by B.S. along these lines. The IRL is a wonderful series, and the drivers are as brave and as talented at what they do as the drivers in any other series. I also feel the same about CART, F1, NASCAR, et al -- even if I may not prefer all the various forms offered by different series, I realize that it's the diversity that makes the racing world such a wonderful place. More racing is better, and to each his (or her) own. As for the various series, anybody who risks life and limb behind the wheel of a racecar deserves at least a small modicum of respect from us armchair (or desktop) racers. It ticks me off when others don't afford those brave souls the respect they all deserve, but in the future, I'm going to do my best to stew in private, rather than vent her in public -- especially since these type of threads are VERY off-topic for this particular newsgroup. FWIW, I avoid RASI these days specifically because it's a breeding ground for this type of bashing and negativity, and I'd hate to see the RAS newsgroup become more of the same. Again, my apologies to all for helping take it to that level. -- John Bodin Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

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>>[A newbie to this group weighing in] >>You all sound like a bunch of youngsters who think the CART era was >>the beginning of the Indianapolis 500. >>In fact, it has a long, rich history of being a "run-what-ya-brung" >>race (NOT a series). Drivers who could convince a car owner to allow >>them to race showed up in droves at the track in the month before the >>500 and there weren't many guarantees about whether they would get >>rides or not. (BTW that was happening in Gasoline Alley last weekend >>as well) >>Many of these drivers were right out of the USAC dirt tracks and other >>minor-league oval races. The engineers labored all winter on their >>innovative cars (diesel, front wheel drive, all wheel drive, turbine) >>and went to scout for drivers in May. >>It wasn't until the 1970s that Pat Patrick, Penske et al. declared the >>Indycar formula and turned it into a series with the 500 as its crown >>jewel. >>Tony George (God bless him) wrestled the Indy 500 away from the money >>interests and the multi-megabuck teams and made it into a series where >>the up-and-coming drivers (mostly Americans) would get the experience >>and exposure to race at "Racing's Greatest Spectacle." >>I attended the IRL race at Phoenix this year and was at Indy >>qualifications last week. Yes, they DO race like the junior varsity >>because they are . . . just like about 75% of those drivers whose >>faces appear on the Bendix trophy. >>You want to see the heritage of the Indy 500, racing the way it used >>to be or the way the commercial interests of the big $$ boys want you >>to? IRL has got that heritage. CART appears to be a steppingstone >>series to F1. >>(BTW, do any of you remember racers like Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney >>and Jackie Stewart racing at Indy, NASCAR, F1 and anyplace they could >>get a ride? If you want to see the REAL heroes of racing, the real >>drivers, look at the entry lists from the 1960s) >>I love NASCAR, even though it is starting to look more staged than WWF >>wrestling. I am lukewarm on CART but IRL is the one place where you >>can say "I saw them there first." >>-the Diamondcutter >>99 Dodge Ram 1500 QC 5.2L Sport >>98 Swiss-Hutless/Yamaha KT100 racing kart >>96 Invader/Briggs racing kart >>On Tue, 18 May 1999 23:50:30 -0400, "Scott B. Husted" >><SNIP> >>>> On Tue, 18 May 1999 13:42:01 GMT, "Scott B. Husted" >>>> >Winning $$$$ does not make it prestigious when you are competing against >>>> >has been and never was drivers. >>>So what you are saying is that IRL drivers are just collecting money at Indy >>>because 99% of them dont have the talent to compete in a "real" series?? >>>"Ill stay in the IRL so I can compete and make money because I dont have >>>enough talent to run in CART and its top notch talent." ???