Wingman FF: My Demented Quest

I decided I wanted to buy a Wingman Formula Force a couple of days ago. Sort of a semi-impulse buy, since I've ruled out all the other wheels, and swore I wasn't going to buy the Logitech until they improved the pedals. I've been using a creaky old T2 for almost 3 years. I saw the $110 price on Buy.com, but figured I didn't mind spending a little more for instant gratification from a local store. I'll also admit that I'm still not real cozy with internet shopping. Since Buy.com's trick is to lure you with a lowball price, then beat you to death on shipping, I set my target local-store price at a relatively high $150. I knew Best Buy had them, since that's where I originally saw the wheel... $180. Same price I remember seeing it for and balking at it when it first came out. Off to CompUSA. They had the Microsoft wheel, (not interested), and a whole slew of hokey looking wheels with everything from tilting steering columns to full 6 button video game pads built into the hubs. The box on one of the wheels didn't even say Force Feedback, instead proudly proclaiming "It Vibrates!" Whee. CompUSA had every screwball mouse/trackball/no-ball-at-all input device Logitech ever made (think the only thing they haven't made is one you set on the floor and roll with your ass) but no Wingman FF wheels. Not even an empty spot on the shelf where they used to be. Hmmm. This happens every time I want something bad! It happened when I bought my Voodoo2, it happened when I bought my Riva TNT, happened when I wanted a SBLive! Value, it happens whenever I want a game title really bad. Can't find it anywhere, or one place has it for nearly twice the price of the places that don't. I notice that Thrustmaster must have 5 mildly different non-FF wheel/pedal combos. Seems like a waste. I also notice that neither Best Buy or CompUSA is selling the Force GT, despite selling all 5 similar non-FF wheels with different names. Desperation sets in. On the way home I swing by Sams club. A complete waste of time, and I knew it. Then I go to Target. Really scraping the bottom now. The most interesting thing I see there is 3D Shark Hunter. I guess all of the virtual land animals have been exterminated, so it's time to plunder the ocean. I look at Shark Hunter, and wish I had the programming skills to make something like Baby Seal Clubber 3D. That should really whip the knee-jerk crowd into a frenzy, and I'd be proud to single-handedly topple the hunting game market. Finally, I go to Circuit City. I swore I'd never buy anything there until Div-X killed them dead, and they were having a bankruptcy liquidation sale. It was almost a relief that their barren shelves were devoid of the Wingman wheel. I'd be torturing myself for weeks if I gave them $150. I went back to Best Buy on the way home, only to find out they didn't have any Wingman wheels in stock anyway. I really don't think I would have paid $180, but the fact that I was considering it shows how desperate I was. Guess there were a lot of more-desperate suckers that beat me to it. Anyway, that's it. Here I sit, still staring at the rickety old T2, when I was hoping to be rubbing fenders in SCGT and crushing/drowning dozens of hapless virtual Viper drivers. Hope this kind of shit doesn't just happen to me. =8^/ -- http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

Excellent post, but I have a question.. Do you have a phone? -- Jason >[snip truly epic quest]

Hi Tim IMHO save your time and money and wait for forcefeedback version 2. I just finished repackaging my Wingman force for the trip back to Fry's to return. In short it feels like a badly rebuilt T2 that occasionally jumps around as if a defective bungee cord. The throw on the pedals is so short that I think I could do just as well w/KB. While racing when in the groove there is almost no forces at all, the only time it feels vaguely realistic is when you go over the berm and you can feel the high freq bumps. As far as being able to feel whether your car is tight of loose you are better off using non-FF and using your imagination..<VBG>. Bear in mind I have only used for a very few minutes using only the demo of SCGT so it may work better in other games. I also read that the newer driver v3.12 I think improves the forces, after I installed the new drv and noticed no difference I realized that this ***aint worth nearly $200. Prolly not worth $50 IMHO. I also installed Ubisofts F1Rs and it caused my sys to lock when I tried to run it so away it went as well. regards Mitch Naman TEN/NROS

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> I decided I wanted to buy a Wingman Formula Force a couple of days > ago. Sort of a semi-impulse buy, since I've ruled out all the other > wheels, and swore I wasn't going to buy the Logitech until they > improved the pedals. > I've been using a creaky old T2 for almost 3 years. > I saw the $110 price on Buy.com, but figured I didn't mind spending a > little more for instant gratification from a local store. > I'll also admit that I'm still not real cozy with internet shopping. > Since Buy.com's trick is to lure you with a lowball price, then beat > you to death on shipping, I set my target local-store price at a > relatively high $150. > I knew Best Buy had them, since that's where I originally saw the > wheel... $180. Same price I remember seeing it for and balking at it > when it first came out. > Off to CompUSA. They had the Microsoft wheel, (not interested), and a > whole slew of hokey looking wheels with everything from tilting > steering columns to full 6 button video game pads built into the hubs. > The box on one of the wheels didn't even say Force Feedback, instead > proudly proclaiming "It Vibrates!" Whee. > CompUSA had every screwball mouse/trackball/no-ball-at-all input > device Logitech ever made (think the only thing they haven't made is > one you set on the floor and roll with your ass) but no Wingman FF > wheels. Not even an empty spot on the shelf where they used to be. > Hmmm. > This happens every time I want something bad! > It happened when I bought my Voodoo2, it happened when I bought my > Riva TNT, happened when I wanted a SBLive! Value, it happens whenever > I want a game title really bad. > Can't find it anywhere, or one place has it for nearly twice the price > of the places that don't. > I notice that Thrustmaster must have 5 mildly different non-FF > wheel/pedal combos. Seems like a waste. > I also notice that neither Best Buy or CompUSA is selling the Force > GT, despite selling all 5 similar non-FF wheels with different names. > Desperation sets in. On the way home I swing by Sams club. > A complete waste of time, and I knew it. > Then I go to Target. Really scraping the bottom now. > The most interesting thing I see there is 3D Shark Hunter. > I guess all of the virtual land animals have been exterminated, so > it's time to plunder the ocean. > I look at Shark Hunter, and wish I had the programming skills to make > something like Baby Seal Clubber 3D. > That should really whip the knee-jerk crowd into a frenzy, and I'd be > proud to single-handedly topple the hunting game market. > Finally, I go to Circuit City. I swore I'd never buy anything there > until Div-X killed them dead, and they were having a bankruptcy > liquidation sale. > It was almost a relief that their barren shelves were devoid of the > Wingman wheel. I'd be torturing myself for weeks if I gave them $150. > I went back to Best Buy on the way home, only to find out they didn't > have any Wingman wheels in stock anyway. I really don't think I would > have paid $180, but the fact that I was considering it shows how > desperate I was. Guess there were a lot of more-desperate suckers that > beat me to it. > Anyway, that's it. Here I sit, still staring at the rickety old T2, > when I was hoping to be rubbing fenders in SCGT and crushing/drowning > dozens of hapless virtual Viper drivers. > Hope this kind of shit doesn't just happen to me. =8^/ > -- > http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 > (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

>Excellent post, but I have a question.. >Do you have a phone? I'm guessing you've never had the pleasure of speaking to a US computer/electronics store flunky, eh? :) The employees at CompUSA and Best Buy are people that failed the aptitude test for slinging burgers at McDonalds. You can't even get a straight answer on things like SCSI/IDE CD ROM drives or PC100 memory. Since Logitech likes to call every game controller some variation of Wingman, I'd bet the odds of getting a correct answer on the Formula Force at about 1 in 50. Basically, it's quicker to see for yourself. =8^/ Tim

Tim, I'd agree that was a little demented. I am not going to tell you buy.com is the best store on earth, there are many users who have purchased from them and have complained after returning a product. But, I purchased an NEC 870 printer for $290+shipping. I added a IEEE printer cable and a Bitronics parrallel port switch. To my surprise, I knew the shipping was always a ripoff. But when I added the items the shipping only went up $1. It seems the more you have on the order the more reasonable it becomes. Their price for the cable was super cheap, and they had by far the cheapest price on the bitronics switch. After making sure all the items were correct, I called and telephoned the order to their toll-free number. Everything went smoothly, and to my surprise I received all the products the next day (their warehouse is really close to me). To date everything is working perfectly. Now yesterday, after looking for a wheel, a friend of mine ordered the Logitech Wingman Formula Force for $104 (yes the price has dropped). In addition, he ordered 2 DVD's and the new ATI GL128 All-In-Wonder (not delivering until the end of the month) and the shipping was a total of $19.50 (17.50 for the wheel alone, followed by 75 cents for 2 DVDs anbd another $1 for the video card. I have to tell you that is reasonable, since if you bought the items say at real.com and necx.com (1) the items cost a heck of allot more, and (2) the shipping in the end, ordering from two different stores would add to the same amount. By the way he placed his order via the net, and everything was accepted without a hitch. I do not work for buy.com if you were wondering. But I guess for every person that may have complained about them, there are some of us who are satisfied. One warning though, do not forget anything when ordering, sometimes if you call back to add an item, they may need to create a new orer, in which you then get screwed by the shipping/handling thing. Remember you can always just use a phone. Ex

>Tim, I'd agree that was a little demented. I am not going to tell you >buy.com is the best store on earth, there are many users who have >purchased from them and have complained after returning a product. Thanks for the info. I actually did end up ordering the Logitech wheel and an inkjet printer from them. Exactly as you said, the shipping went way down. It was $17 for the wheel alone, and I think $22 for the printer. Both together were $21 and change. I would like to have purchased the wheel locally, just to have somewhere to easily return it if it craps out, but the $70 price difference between Buy.com and Best Buy was just too much. If there is a problem, I have 30 days from Buy.com (they say they cross ship and refund shipping charges on defective items), then the 1 year warranty from Logitech after that. Hopefully I don't need to use it, but I'm satisfied with it. Tim

Hi Mitch, I own the Logitech FF myself. Just a few remarks: FF Version2 - What's that? Driver V3.12 is compulsory, the CD driver is *** MGPRS2 is outstanding with Logi-FF (F1RS was not good) Pedal throw is a little short, but you get used to it SCGT I don't have - so no comment on this The wheel IS worth the money See you Jens

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>Hi Tim >IMHO save your time and money and wait for forcefeedback version 2. I just >finished repackaging my Wingman force for the trip back to Fry's to return. >In short it feels like a badly rebuilt T2 that occasionally jumps around as >if a defective bungee cord. The throw on the pedals is so short that I >think I could do just as well w/KB. While racing when in the groove there >is almost no forces at all, the only time it feels vaguely realistic is when >you go over the berm and you can feel the high freq bumps. As far as being >able to feel whether your car is tight of loose you are better off using >non-FF and using your imagination..<VBG>. Bear in mind I have only used for >a very few minutes using only the demo of SCGT so it may work better in >other games. I also read that the newer driver v3.12 I think improves the >forces, after I installed the new drv and noticed no difference I realized >that this ***aint worth nearly $200. Prolly not worth $50 IMHO. I also >installed Ubisofts F1Rs and it caused my sys to lock when I tried to run it >so away it went as well. >regards >Mitch >Naman TEN/NROS

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>I own the Logitech FF myself. Just a few remarks: >FF Version2 - What's that? I-Force FF standard 2.0 Vs I-Force 1.0. Some games use the older Immersion standard which the newer drivers are apparently not backward compatable with. I would suggest going to www.wingmanteam.com and getting the 3.20 beta drivers. If you have tried the Logitech wheel in both games can you please give me some examples? I have probably put close to 25-30 hours into F1RS with the Logitech wheel so I know what it does/doesn't do. I feel the main area it needs improvement is the inertia effects going around corners. With the MS FF wheel you could definately feel the wheel lighten up as you lost grip in the corners. The Logitech seems to do this occasionally. So if this effect is more pronounced I may give MGPRS2 another shot. Yep. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

JS, I'm confused about MGPRS2. Electronic Boutique's website says it's release date is 6/7/99 -- yet, I've seen messages from many people who have this sim, some who have said they've had it for a long time, and others who found it in the bargain bins. What's up with this sim? Is it out in the US? Thanks, bill

On Sat, 22 May 1999 08:35:38 -0500, "Greg Cisko" <snip>> <snip> I tried the F1RS with FF only once - no pleasing effects Put in the patch - still no big improvement. Don't ask me about details, I don't remember. Then I tried MGPRS2. Standard version not so convincing. Put in the patch - fabulous. Highlights: Wheel loosing when oversteering AND on bumps. Gravel trap and grass feeling - great. Curbs are fantastic also. Whats also great: The response is extremely quick: no delay-feeling at all. I LOVE IT Jens BTW: Any other MGPRS2-FF comments in this NG? --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

>JS, >I'm confused about MGPRS2. Electronic Boutique's website says it's release >date is 6/7/99 -- yet, I've seen messages from many people who have this >sim, some who have said they've had it for a long time, and others who found >it in the bargain bins. >What's up with this sim? Is it out in the US? My local EB has had the British import version for many months. It cost $20. The real US version is not released yet. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

I guess they are talking about another sim. MGPRS2 is out definitely since a long time Jens <snip>> --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address