GPL Newbie

You probably heard all of this before but... I just got GPL last month (Finally got a system that can cope) and all I can say is WHOA! (Or prehaps WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, Crash, Endos and then hello rollbar!) Certainly a step above any other sim! Anyway I can't believe its taken 10 hours to do a 1:15 at Watkins Glen! I MUST reccomend the add ons available at usthepits.com. No more Murasma! Hello Honda! Anyway I was wondering, has Papyrus made a patch for force feedback wheels?

No, and AFAIK there never will be one. Maybe GPL2...???? -don

No Everett and I don't think they intend to. Papy feel FF is not yet sufficiently advanced to be realistic and would detract rather than add to the sim . After some more familiarity with GPL you may well come to agree, as I do. Enjoy the sim - it gets easier (except for the Ring!) best wishes Tim

Well, I _did_ recently say that there is _one_ more thing we're working on for the patch. Hmmmm. I wonder what it might be? :-) Randy

Get out of town! Well, I think I predicted some time ago that we would not see force feedback in GPL until the next major release. I'm ready to eat my words! The delight of force feedback, as implemented by Papyrus, will certainly make them more palatable! Jack Rambo www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

Well, I had the feeling that FF would be a part of N3 but didn't suspect FF in GPL! Lets hope that along with N3 Papy is working on either ICR3 (IRL?) or CART. I for one am spoiled by GPL and nothing less physics wise will do. JM

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> > >Anyway I was wondering, has Papyrus made a patch for force feedback > > >wheels? > > No, and AFAIK there never will be one. Maybe GPL2...???? > Well, I _did_ recently say that there is _one_ more thing we're working > on for the patch. Hmmmm. I wonder what it might be? :-) > Randy

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> > >Anyway I was wondering, has Papyrus made a patch for force feedback > > >wheels? > > No, and AFAIK there never will be one. Maybe GPL2...???? > Well, I _did_ recently say that there is _one_ more thing we're working > on for the patch. Hmmmm. I wonder what it might be? :-) > Randy

PLONK! No, no, no, that wasn't a plonk, just the sound I made falling off my chair!! OTOH, if this is a joke, it's cruel and unusual punishment... ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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>> >Anyway I was wondering, has Papyrus made a patch for force feedback >> >wheels? >> No, and AFAIK there never will be one. Maybe GPL2...???? >Well, I _did_ recently say that there is _one_ more thing we're working >on for the patch. Hmmmm. I wonder what it might be? :-)

Giant Nuclear Chickens? Remco

Well, according to Randy's post above......Papy doesn't care that it will detract from the sim. Oh well. > No Everett and I don't think they intend to. Papy feel FF is not yet > sufficiently advanced to be realistic and would detract rather than add to

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> the sim . > After some more familiarity with GPL you may well come to agree, as I do. > Enjoy the sim - it gets easier (except for the Ring!) > best wishes > Tim > > You probably heard all of this before but... > > I just got GPL last month (Finally got a system that can cope) and all I > > can say is WHOA! (Or prehaps WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, Crash, Endos and then > > hello rollbar!) > > Certainly a step above any other sim! > > Anyway I can't believe its taken 10 hours to do a 1:15 at Watkins Glen! > > I MUST reccomend the add ons available at usthepits.com. No more > > Murasma! Hello Honda! > > Anyway I was wondering, has Papyrus made a patch for force feedback > > wheels?

Yes, and the return of LeChicken with the arrival of the GPL 1.1 patch. It's a whole political issue involving the US Government ambassador here in Qubec and Papyrus, because of the upcoming raise of the Chickens, and their supreme Master LeChicken. The truth is out there... ;-D -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Might want to check the relative timestamps on both of those posts before whacking him a good one... Av

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|Well, according to Randy's post above......Papy doesn't care that it will |detract from the sim. Oh well. | | |> No Everett and I don't think they intend to. Papy feel FF is not yet |> sufficiently advanced to be realistic and would detract rather than add |to |> the sim . |> After some more familiarity with GPL you may well come to agree, as I do. |> Enjoy the sim - it gets easier (except for the Ring!) |> best wishes |> Tim |> |> |> > You probably heard all of this before but... |> > |> > I just got GPL last month (Finally got a system that can cope) and all

I

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|> > can say is WHOA! (Or prehaps WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, Crash, Endos and then |> > hello rollbar!) |> > |> > Certainly a step above any other sim! |> > |> > Anyway I can't believe its taken 10 hours to do a 1:15 at Watkins Glen! |> > I MUST reccomend the add ons available at usthepits.com. No more |> > Murasma! Hello Honda! |> > |> > Anyway I was wondering, has Papyrus made a patch for force feedback |> > wheels? |> |> | |

Hmm.......force feedback support for GPL? At last the FF might get to do more than set the spring tension! Do you guys seriously expect us to buy anything else for a while (except for hardware) after we get a patch for GPL? ;-) Keep up the good work at Papy!, Ian

Say it aint so Joe, Say it aint so! I can't believe the much awaited patch is being held up for a gimmick like Force Feedback. Wait for the technology (hardware) to make it worth the trouble! -g On Mon, 10 May 1999 20:56:53 GMT, "Randy Cassidy"

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>> >Anyway I was wondering, has Papyrus made a patch for force feedback >> >wheels? >> No, and AFAIK there never will be one. Maybe GPL2...???? >Well, I _did_ recently say that there is _one_ more thing we're working >on for the patch. Hmmmm. I wonder what it might be? :-) >Randy

Don't know about the gimmick thing. My guess is that it's going to offer a lot more than a jolt when you smack the Armco or slide up on a curb. Jack Rambo www.raceLive.com/GPaL

I read statements by Dave Kaemmer and other Papyrus employees that said ff was currently a waste of time. Now a complete change of opinion? David G Fisher recently say that there is _one_ more thing we're working

With the current technology I just don't think even 25% of current FF wheels can produce the correct effects required by GPL. Thus the effects are useless and only hinder gameplay. I would certainly want the patch to be published NOW and the gimmicks later.

Jaw. Drop. Floor. Hit. Ouch. !!!!!! -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 ________________________________________________________________________________ "Sorry, my eyes were on screensaver" (Calvin & Hobbes)

Certainly FF done well would be nice - and if anyone is likely to do it well I expect the GPL people to be them. I also think that employing 3D sound would be a very useful thing. Especially given the size of GPL's blind spots. I thing Aureal's 3D sound positioning system would be quite helpful in aiding a driver to position surrounding near cars. FWIW. Bets Regards Phillip McNelley.

Well I'm sure there will be an option to turn it off. Besides, if FF will bring more GPL users to the bank, what's the harm? As long as there is an option to turn things on and off, I don't mind. Scott

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> Well, according to Randy's post above......Papy doesn't care that it will > detract from the sim. Oh well. > > No Everett and I don't think they intend to. Papy feel FF is not yet > > sufficiently advanced to be realistic and would detract rather than add > to > > the sim . > > After some more familiarity with GPL you may well come to agree, as I do. > > Enjoy the sim - it gets easier (except for the Ring!) > > best wishes > > Tim > > > You probably heard all of this before but... > > > I just got GPL last month (Finally got a system that can cope) and all I > > > can say is WHOA! (Or prehaps WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, Crash, Endos and then > > > hello rollbar!) > > > Certainly a step above any other sim! > > > Anyway I can't believe its taken 10 hours to do a 1:15 at Watkins Glen! > > > I MUST reccomend the add ons available at usthepits.com. No more > > > Murasma! Hello Honda! > > > Anyway I was wondering, has Papyrus made a patch for force feedback > > > wheels?

Actually, FF is the***thing I've heard of in the patch that interests me. Internet play is already _very_ good (unless you're behind a network firewall - small minority of gamers). The only other major criticism I recall was the difficulty of the AI - and that's changeable with ini mucking about or easily available freeware (AI Tweak). Most of the medium core guys (myself incl.) can run with the AI now, anyways. GPL could greatly benefit from even some simple FF such as understeer effects, wheel to wheel contact & road surface irregularities (i.e. bumps, dips, washboard surface) since these cars were much more affected by this due to lack of aero & ground effects. Software driver conflicts and workarounds are all pretty well documented here & in FAQ's and I doubt they've fixed it so it runs at full detail on a Cyrix 150 in software rendering. Needless to say, I can wait. Randy

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> >Don't know about the gimmick thing. My guess is that it's going to offer a > >lot more than a jolt when you smack the Armco or slide up on a curb. > With the current technology I just don't think even 25% of current FF > wheels can produce the correct effects required by GPL. Thus the > effects are useless and only hinder gameplay. I would certainly want > the patch to be published NOW and the gimmicks later.

> >Well, I _did_ recently say that there is _one_ more thing we're working > >on for the patch. Hmmmm. I wonder what it might be? :-) > Jaw. Drop. Floor. Hit. Ouch. > !!!!!! Just wait until you get to try it :) -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

> >Don't know about the gimmick thing. My guess is that it's going to offer a > >lot more than a jolt when you smack the Armco or slide up on a curb. Yes. Believe me, it's worth the wait! -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Well I'm curious about this. I've just added a SB Live and Voodoo3 3000, and I'm now able to run with 16 sounds, every graphic option maxed, except Detail Bias (50%), at 1024 x 768 pegging at 36 fps with a full AI field. Wow! What an experience GPL provides! I'm able to determine from the sound where cars are located around me. So my curiosity is about what 3D sound is going to provide that's not there now? Can't imagine how it could get much better. Incidentally, I ran for a long time at 6 sounds, and 16 sounds really does seem to enhance the experience! It's the new peripheral sounds, like the sound of a Ferrari screaming down a distant part of the track at full song, that is almost startling at first. Thinking about upgrading your hardware? Do it! With the equipment that's now at our disposal the immersion is complete! After months of racing, GPL is still leaving me gape-mouthed! Jack Rambo www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

On Mon, 10 May 1999 20:56:53 GMT, "Randy Cassidy" >Well, I _did_ recently say that there is _one_ more thing we're working >on for the patch. Hmmmm. I wonder what it might be? :-) >Randy Erk... The perfect sim! Well, I might as well go home now. I'll be driving the tracks of GPL in my mind for the rest of the day, imagining what FF would feel like... Yay Papy! (Gimmick? Hogwash!) Brett "Wiggly-wheel" Reschke

> On Tue, 11 May 1999 03:32:42 -0400, > >I read statements by Dave Kaemmer and other Papyrus employees that said ff > >was currently a waste of time. Now a complete change of opinion? > >David G Fisher > Maybe they tried Viper Racing.. Maybe. Viper racing does have fanstasic ff. I'm sure though that Papyrus will do it better than anyone else has so far, or will ever, and their fans will constantly tell us that it's so (despite their stated distaste for the technology). :-) David G Fisher

On Tue, 11 May 1999 15:28:50 -0400, "David G Fisher" >Maybe. Viper racing does have fanstasic ff. I'm sure though that Papyrus >will do it better than anyone else has so far, or will ever, and their fans >will constantly tell us that it's so (despite their stated distaste for the >technology). :-) There you have it folks ; Some of the people, all of the time All of the people, some of the time and now, Some of the people, none of the time. :-) Cheers! John

% Well, according to Randy's post above......Papy doesn't care that it will % detract from the sim. Oh well. More than anything, I understand Papy's original concern was more the latency issue created by the overhead of Force Feedback. This may still be an issue with those that connect via game port and to some degree with units that connect via serial. But via USB, things should be alot better on the latency side. % > No Everett and I don't think they intend to. Papy feel FF is not yet % > sufficiently advanced to be realistic and would detract rather than add % to % > the sim . % > After some more familiarity with GPL you may well come to agree, as I do. % > Enjoy the sim - it gets easier (except for the Ring!) % > best wishes % > Tim % > % > % > > You probably heard all of this before but... % > > % > > I just got GPL last month (Finally got a system that can cope) and all I % > > can say is WHOA! (Or prehaps WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, Crash, Endos and then % > > hello rollbar!) % > > % > > Certainly a step above any other sim! % > > % > > Anyway I can't believe its taken 10 hours to do a 1:15 at Watkins Glen! % > > I MUST reccomend the add ons available at usthepits.com. No more % > > Murasma! Hello Honda! % > > % > > Anyway I was wondering, has Papyrus made a patch for force feedback % > > wheels? % > % > -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

P2-450-128. You'll love it! Jack Rambo www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

| Well I'm curious about this. I've just added a SB Live and Voodoo3 3000, and | I'm now able to run with 16 sounds, every graphic option maxed, except | Detail Bias (50%), at 1024 x 768 pegging at 36 fps with a full AI field. | Wow! What an experience GPL provides! What CPU/speed are you using Jack? I'm waiting for my V3-3000, and I already have the SB-live and a 300A/450 so I read all posts about GPL and the V3 :)

> Well, as far as latency with USB - I had a problem because my speakers were stealing all > the bandwidth. I returned my USB MultiTech and opted to go with the external... Ummm, external "serial port". D.Cook

Hi Jack, I'm green. So can to some extent, based on the stereo support that's included. Logically one would say that if you've got stereo then what more can there be. This is what I would have said until I heard the 3D positioning software/hardware solutions from Aureal. There is a huge improvement over just plain stereo. They do this by simulating the way the human brain/ears lean to position sound sources. Of course unless you happen to have one of the relevant sound cards then there are no words to try to describe it. You need to hear it. You can go to http://www.reactorcritical.com/ Yes I now run 16 sounds. Its great to hear all the surrounding sounds and background noises. Phillip McNelley

>> With the current technology I just don't think even 25% of current FF >> wheels can produce the correct effects required by GPL. Thus the >> effects are useless and only hinder gameplay. I would certainly want >> the patch to be published NOW and the gimmicks later. >Believe me, it's worth the wait! For a non-FF wheel owner as well? Don't think so :) I'd prefer they released v1.1 now and v1.15 w/ FF-support later ... but one can't always get what one wants ... Hena

Phillip... simulating the way the human brain/ears lean to position sound sources. Of course unless you happen to have one of the relevant sound cards then there are no words to try to describe it. You need to hear it. You can go to http://www.aureal.com/tech/ to read about it.< My Compaq has built-in Aureal 3D support, so I've played with their neat little demos....maybe you've seen one...the bee flying around your head thing. It's neat, but it seems like I get a lot of that effect with GPL and the SB Live now. I can tell, for example, as a car makes the transition from my left rear to right rear. Anyway, I just didn't find the Aureal demo that much more impressive than what I find in GPL now. But, I'm sure that if they in fact built 3-D sound in I'd be overcome. LOL. :) While we're on the subject of GPL sound, try this when you get a chance. Shortly after I got the SB Live and cranked the number of sounds to 16, I'm racing down toward the Gasworks hairpin at Monaco. As I had often heard in the past, I heard the sound of the front of the field racing up the adjacent front straight. But startlingly, the bulk of that sound seemed to be to my left. Surprised by the sound's location, I realized that perhaps there's some pretty sophisticated 3-D sound modeling going on. If you think about that particular section of Monaco, you'll recall that there are some relatively tall buildings on the left hand side of the front straight, a wall separating the two adjacent straights, and a wall to your left as you race toward Gasworks. See where I'm headed with this? I'm no acoustics engineer, but my conclusion was that sound from the cars on the front straight was reflected off the buildings and then off the wall to my left and into my left ear, though the source of the sound was actually to my right. Could this be? It would be very interesting to hear what insight Randy Cassidy might have to offer! Jack Rambo www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

Gimmick ?, have you tried Viper racing with a FF wheel ? the FF in Viper is very informative as to what the car is doing. We will now have 3 senses telling us what the car is doing rather than 2, IMO the FF will be at least as good in GPL as it is in Viper (knowing Papy it will be better), and should make GPL even better for those of us with FF wheels. I know some people would prefer the patch to be released earlier without FF, but others have different priorities. Running on NT, and behind firewalls etc. are of no benefit whatsoever to me but I still have to wait for those to be completed before I can have the patch. I say let them put what they feel is required into the patch and have everything working right in one release. If Papy do a good job with the FF in GPL, it will encourage the hardware manufacturers to improve the quality of the controllers, which will benefit all of us in the long run IMO. -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592

I believe someone from Papyrus was just on r.a.s a few weeks ago trashing ff technology in a post regarding which ff wheels were best. A r.a.s. regular responded with the line "I guess we won't be seeing ff from Papyrus anytime soon". So what if the comments were made early in GPL's release and before? They were strongly against it. That was still only 5-7 months ago. They must of begun work on ff for GPL X months ago. I'm curious as to why such a sudden change of opinion. David G Fisher > On Tue, 11 May 1999 03:32:42 -0400, "David G Fisher" > >I read statements by Dave Kaemmer and other Papyrus employees that said ff > >was currently a waste of time. Now a complete change of opinion? > And weren't those statements made around the time of the release of > GPL (if not prior), seven months ago (or more)?

On Tue, 11 May 1999 03:32:42 -0400, "David G Fisher" >I read statements by Dave Kaemmer and other Papyrus employees that said ff >was currently a waste of time. Now a complete change of opinion? And weren't those statements made around the time of the release of GPL (if not prior), seven months ago (or more)? "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

On Wed, 12 May 1999 21:53:26 -0400, "David G Fisher" >So what if the comments were made early in GPL's release and before? They >were strongly against it. That was still only 5-7 months ago. They must of >begun work on ff for GPL X months ago. I'm curious as to why such a sudden >change of opinion. Only Papyrus know for sure but I suspect as a test-bed for FF in NASCAR-3. Actually NASCAR would be where FF may really come into it's own, since you run closer to the grip limit of the tyres for longer periods of time on the Superspeedways. Could be an interesting inclusion if that is the reason. Cheers! John

% I believe someone from Papyrus was just on r.a.s a few weeks ago trashing ff % technology in a post regarding which ff wheels were best. A r.a.s. regular % responded with the line "I guess we won't be seeing ff from Papyrus anytime % soon". % So what if the comments were made early in GPL's release and before? They % were strongly against it. That was still only 5-7 months ago. They must of % begun work on ff for GPL X months ago. I'm curious as to why such a sudden % change of opinion. % David G Fisher Basically from what I understand it was done to frustrate the hell out of you David. It seems that Papyrus' sole pleasure in life is to see your well thought out and constructed posts to r.a.s. <G> What I do know is, that although Papyrus was not happy with FF (both in it's instruction set, latency issues, and adaptation), they continued to work on incoporating it into their products. They had no intention of holding up GPL's release until they could get FF the way they wanted to. From my sources in the wheel industry, Papyrus has been in close contact and have been working with some of the companies that have FF units on means of making FF work they way that Papyrus wants to see it work. In case you haven't noticed, Papyrus does not seem to be prone to putting "gimmics" into their simulations just to make the buying public happy. Almost everything they put into their simulations are there to make it more realistic and to provide "cues" the user. At the time of the release of GPL, the designers still felt that FF would have just been a gimmic addition to GPL (and because of the latency issues, they chose not to bog down GPL's performance by including it). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<snipped> Good grief! A software company more concerned with quality and realism than with pumping out gimmicky features to boost short-term sales? What's this world coming to? :-)

Nuclear Chickens? WTF? I had a 'Nuclear Chicken' join a VROC race I hosted. Was that you? :) __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>Moedt) writes: >>>Well, I _did_ recently say that there is _one_ more thing we're working >>>on for the patch. Hmmmm. I wonder what it might be? :-) >>Giant Nuclear Chickens? >>Remco >Nuclear Chickens? WTF? I had a 'Nuclear Chicken' join a VROC race I hosted. >Was that you? :)

Nope. Remco