Mass market - thy will be done

Today i came across this line in an article about TOCA 2 and i'd like to share this with you. "..... However, beginners should have their problems with TOCA 2. Driving physics is almost too elaborate (for a computer game)." How can something be regarded as 'too elaborate' while the absolute and pure goal is to be able to feel what real conditions are like ? It saddens me to read this statement and the general approach to the term 'simulator' that it recklessly implies. - Greg Hellmann "Cause when the feelin's right, i'm gonna race all night."

Quoted text (17 lines)

>Today i came across this line in an article about TOCA 2 and i'd like to share >this with you. >"..... However, beginners should have their problems with TOCA 2. Driving >physics is almost too elaborate (for a computer game)." >How can something be regarded as 'too elaborate' while the absolute and pure >goal is to be able to feel what real conditions are like ? It saddens me to > read >this statement and the general approach to the term 'simulator' that it >recklessly implies. >- >Greg Hellmann

Greg, i'm amazed that this mentions TOCA2 ! :) It's not the highest level of simulation in the world- and while it's fairly easy for experienced "racers" it's probably i would have thought easy enough at the easy driving level to compete for begineers. But it does raise a poitn about all driving simulations. They have to be mass market. What? I must be mad, i hear you say - but- A simualtion has to be accessable to all skill levels and abilities. It should cater for me, the slightly-better-than-average sim-racer, it should cater for others who are above my level, and the ones below it. Why? Well, sales. If we are going to get quality products that suit our needs, Companies are going to need to cater well across the board. Not just at the "niches". And i'm afraid this NG is full of one such "niche". Self-titled "***" simulation fans. Lets compare two games: One exclusively targetted at *** gamers- say, GPL :) One arcade racer: NFS3 Well, aside from their relative merits, it's common knowledge that NFS3 was the biggest selling racer of 1998 (in europe, at least) and GPL was certainly not as successful. In reality, figures on GPL are remarkably hard to find anywhere, collated for the European market. This is very strange in itself! :) The only reaction i have to that is that perhaps they are rather low. Consider the relative popularity of both these titles in this Ng. What does this tell you? We are not typical players. We are the minority. I find that somewhat concerning. If titles like GPL which are pure *** are going to come along, and not do so well, then we are in danger of not having any subsequent titles- or the heavy simualtion will be scaled right back. And that's something none of us wants. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Look, just notice how the quote if from PC GAMES Magazine, not PC SIMS Magazine. Doug >>Today i came across this line in an article about TOCA 2 and i'd like to share

Quoted text (9 lines)

>>this with you. >>"..... However, beginners should have their problems with TOCA 2. Driving >>physics is almost too elaborate (for a computer game)." >>How can something be regarded as 'too elaborate' while the absolute and

pure >>goal is to be able to feel what real conditions are like ? It saddens me to

Quoted text (12 lines)

>> read >>this statement and the general approach to the term 'simulator' that it >>recklessly implies. >>- >>Greg Hellmann >Greg, >i'm amazed that this mentions TOCA2 ! :) It's not the highest level of >simulation in the world- and while it's fairly easy for experienced

"racers"

Quoted text (12 lines)

>it's probably i would have thought easy enough at the easy driving level to >compete for begineers. >But it does raise a poitn about all driving simulations. >They have to be mass market. >What? >I must be mad, i hear you say - but- >A simualtion has to be accessable to all skill levels and abilities. It

should >cater for me, the slightly-better-than-average sim-racer, it should cater for

Quoted text (17 lines)

>others who are above my level, and the ones below it. >Why? >Well, sales. If we are going to get quality products that suit our needs, >Companies are going to need to cater well across the board. Not just at the >"niches". And i'm afraid this NG is full of one such "niche". Self-titled >"***" simulation fans. >Lets compare two games: >One exclusively targetted at *** gamers- say, GPL :) >One arcade racer: NFS3 >Well, aside from their relative merits, it's common knowledge that NFS3 was >the biggest selling racer of 1998 (in europe, at least) and GPL was

certainly >not as successful. In reality, figures on GPL are remarkably hard to find >anywhere, collated for the European market. This is very strange in itself! :)

Quoted text (18 lines)

>The only reaction i have to that is that perhaps they are rather low. >Consider the relative popularity of both these titles in this Ng. >What does this tell you? >We are not typical players. We are the minority. >I find that somewhat concerning. If titles like GPL which are pure *** >are going to come along, and not do so well, then we are in danger of not >having any subsequent titles- or the heavy simualtion will be scaled right >back. >And that's something none of us wants. >Z. >Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

I think all of those crazy Germans who sit on the inside lanes on the Autobahns at 240KMH will find the game a bit tame. My firend was telling me he was going the fastest he has ever driven a car whilst in Germany and others were passing him like he was tanding still...... I agree. If it is too hard for somebody then they can but Motorhead or whatever. Sims are for those who enjoy the challenge and they should be commended for it.

Quoted text (20 lines)

> Today i came across this line in an article about TOCA 2 and i'd like to share > this with you. > "..... However, beginners should have their problems with TOCA 2. Driving > physics is almost too elaborate (for a computer game)." > How can something be regarded as 'too elaborate' while the absolute and pure > goal is to be able to feel what real conditions are like ? It saddens me to read > this statement and the general approach to the term 'simulator' that it > recklessly implies. > - > Greg Hellmann > "Cause when the feelin's right, > i'm gonna race all night."

: Today i came across this line in an article about TOCA 2 and i'd like to share : this with you. : "..... However, beginners should have their problems with TOCA 2. Driving : physics is almost too elaborate (for a computer game)." : How can something be regarded as 'too elaborate' while the absolute and pure : goal is to be able to feel what real conditions are like ? It saddens : me to read this statement and the general approach to the term : 'simulator' that it recklessly implies. Umm... well, possibly because what most people would like a simulator to simulate is the _feel_ of driving a very fast car which they can control. You can add all the physics detail you like, if it doesn't feel like driving then it's not a good simulator - regardless of how detailled the physics model is. However, I wouldn't have said that TOCA 2 was too elaborate - I would say that it's just about right. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

>We are not typical players. We are the minority. >I find that somewhat concerning. If titles like GPL which are pure *** >are going to come along, and not do so well, then we are in danger of not >having any subsequent titles- or the heavy simualtion will be scaled right >back. >And that's something none of us wants. Exactly, and I made that same point in an email to Matt Sentell regarding N3 quite some months back. All that's required is a way of dialing back the physics for either beginners or those who don't want to put in the effort to get on top of a GPL-level sim. By all means keep the full-sim mode, but make the title more accessible to the less-obsessed. The more games they sell, the more new ones that will be developed, and WE certainly want that! Steve B. remove "edy" from address for email

Zonk, Well put. I agree but also wonder how far 'down' will a developer go in order to capture an ever greater mass market. Would GPL have had to be fully playable with the keyboard? Would the AI have had to be scaled back to accomodate this kind of crude control mechanism? At some point the extra time and money it takes to accomodate the lowest common denominator in the name of capturing the greatest possible market segment would inevitably make the developer wonder why they are bothering with the programing to accomodate the 'niche' side of the spectrum at the high end of the physics and graphics envelope. > >Today i came across this line in an article about TOCA 2 and i'd like to share

Quoted text (9 lines)

> >this with you. > >"..... However, beginners should have their problems with TOCA 2. Driving > >physics is almost too elaborate (for a computer game)." > >How can something be regarded as 'too elaborate' while the absolute and

pure > >goal is to be able to feel what real conditions are like ? It saddens me to

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > read > >this statement and the general approach to the term 'simulator' that it > >recklessly implies. > >- > >Greg Hellmann > Greg, > i'm amazed that this mentions TOCA2 ! :) It's not the highest level of > simulation in the world- and while it's fairly easy for experienced

"racers" > it's probably i would have thought easy enough at the easy driving level to

Quoted text (11 lines)

> compete for begineers. > But it does raise a poitn about all driving simulations. > They have to be mass market. > What? > I must be mad, i hear you say - but- > A simualtion has to be accessable to all skill levels and abilities. It

should > cater for me, the slightly-better-than-average sim-racer, it should cater for > others who are above my level, and the ones below it. > Why? > Well, sales. If we are going to get quality products that suit our needs, > Companies are going to need to cater well across the board. Not just at the

Quoted text (10 lines)

> "niches". And i'm afraid this NG is full of one such "niche". Self-titled > "***" simulation fans. > Lets compare two games: > One exclusively targetted at *** gamers- say, GPL :) > One arcade racer: NFS3 > Well, aside from their relative merits, it's common knowledge that NFS3

was > the biggest selling racer of 1998 (in europe, at least) and GPL was certainly > not as successful. In reality, figures on GPL are remarkably hard to find > anywhere, collated for the European market. This is very strange in itself! :)

Quoted text (9 lines)

> The only reaction i have to that is that perhaps they are rather low. > Consider the relative popularity of both these titles in this Ng. > What does this tell you? > We are not typical players. We are the minority. > I find that somewhat concerning. If titles like GPL which are pure

***

Quoted text (9 lines)

> are going to come along, and not do so well, then we are in danger of not > having any subsequent titles- or the heavy simualtion will be scaled right > back. > And that's something none of us wants. > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

On Fri, 7 May 1999 09:07:43 -0700, "Frank Koenig" >Well put. I agree but also wonder how far 'down' will a developer go in >order to capture an ever greater mass market. Would GPL have had to be fully >playable with the keyboard? Would the AI have had to be scaled back to >accomodate this kind of crude control mechanism? Just look at GP2, it can be played with the Keyboard and the AI can be scaled down to accomodate this kind of crude control mechanism and it's still fun - but it also can be cranked up to the greatest modern F1 sim that's out there - challenging, accurate and rewarding - second only to GPL, Bottom line: we need more developers take the approach to developing sims Geoff Crammond has done with GP2.

Quoted text (12 lines)

>Zonk, >Well put. I agree but also wonder how far 'down' will a developer go in >order to capture an ever greater mass market. Would GPL have had to be fully >playable with the keyboard? Would the AI have had to be scaled back to >accomodate this kind of crude control mechanism? >At some point the extra time and money it takes to accomodate the lowest >common denominator in the name of capturing the greatest possible market >segment would inevitably make the developer wonder why they are bothering >with the programing to accomodate the 'niche' side of the spectrum at the >high end of the physics and graphics envelope.

Granted, that's a worry too, but they have to co-exist, or one will be cut- and take a guess at which one will go first.... Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Quoted text (13 lines)

> Today i came across this line in an article about TOCA 2 and i'd like to share > this with you. > "..... However, beginners should have their problems with TOCA 2. Driving > physics is almost too elaborate (for a computer game)." > How can something be regarded as 'too elaborate' while the absolute and pure > goal is to be able to feel what real conditions are like ? It saddens me to read > this statement and the general approach to the term 'simulator' that it > recklessly implies.

Never, ever, listen to a *** mag review of a sim, flight or racing. Especially PC Games, they love Settlers3, but demand role playing elements for Falcon4... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> I think all of those crazy Germans who sit on the inside lanes on the Autobahns at > 240KMH will find the game a bit tame. My firend was telling me he was going the > fastest he has ever driven a car whilst in Germany and others were passing him like > he was tanding still...... Yeah, we can drive faster on country roads than you do on highways. Wrooom! I'll never forget how scared the two US exchange students were, when a friend drove them to a party in the country side. "Do you have to drive that fast? This road only has two lanes, man!!!!" l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Well yes and no.. Look per example at Nascar Racing 2. Ok it's old, but it HAS a great arcade mode. People can hop there with a keyboard, bump with the AI, spin, get back on the track and pass those other opponents. It still doesn't mean it takes anything from the simulation mode. I guess the only problem with Gp2 was that a keyboard driver could race in the same race type as the guy with his wheel. If they had 2different types of racing (ex in N2 you can only race, no qual or practice in arcade mode), you wouldn't had seen all the problems with the Gp2 keyboard hotlappers. If they make an arcade mode for N3 well good for them, but don't take anything from the simulator mode we want (I mean we as r.a.s.ers and *** simracers). Zonkie wrote the same as I did, I know :) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

You're right. An accurate physics model is very important, but without an accurate driving "feel", then a sim is not going to seem realistic. That's why real race car drivers seem to have a ho-hum attitude towards sims. David G Fisher

>Yeah, we can drive faster on country roads than you do on highways. Wrooom! >I'll never forget how scared the two US exchange students were, when a friend >drove them to a party in the country side. "Do you have to drive that fast? >This road only has two lanes, man!!!!" That brings to mind a drive I took some years back from Rotterdam to Interlaken in my trusty Opel Omega company car, where I had to improvise my own cruise control. 1. Press right foot to floor. 2. Wedge left foot behind right foot, to avoid fatigue from driving flat-out for hours on end. 3. Watch lovely scenery whizz by, while keeping a sharp eye on the rearview for big black Mercs closing at 200kmh +. Ahhhh, yes; now that's the way to travel. Who needs airplanes? :-) Steve B. Remove "edy" from address for email