What happened at Charlotte tonight?

I noticed that Humpy Wheeler called the IRL Visioneer 500 after a crash in turns 3 and 4. I was watching (Speedvision) and they red-flagged it to clean up debris. Then I see Humpy saying this is a night that they "...won't soon forget..." I know spectators were involved but no word on what happened. I sure hope nobody was hurt to badly. The pace was set at 222 mph and, needless to say, that's cruisin'. They keep slowing down the Champ cars yet IRL is turning ungodly speeds at the ovals. I love it just like the next guy but I think after Michigan and whatEVER happened tonight we might see some changes. Any word on what happened? Parke Cochran Talladega, AL

I went to this race tonight. 3 spectators were killed and 12 were injured on turn 4. The race was red flagged and then canceled after 70 laps completed. Sad ending to what was looking to be a good race. Its really weird because there were many precautions taken by the track officials, and less than half of the seats were filled. They left the turn two bleachers empty and part of turn 3 and 4. After Michigan, and then this, there will probably be a real shake up.

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> I noticed that Humpy Wheeler called the IRL Visioneer 500 after a crash in > turns 3 and 4. I was watching (Speedvision) and they red-flagged it to > clean up debris. Then I see Humpy saying this is a night that they > "...won't soon forget..." > I know spectators were involved but no word on what happened. I sure hope > nobody was hurt to badly. The pace was set at 222 mph and, needless to say, > that's cruisin'. > They keep slowing down the Champ cars yet IRL is turning ungodly speeds at > the ovals. I love it just like the next guy but I think after Michigan and > whatEVER happened tonight we might see some changes. > Any word on what happened? > Parke Cochran > Talladega, AL

Humpy Wheeler called the IRL Visioneer 500 after a crash in http://espn.go.com/car/irl/news/1999/990501/01238711.html ~daxe -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com/ The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ---------== Over 72,000 Groups, Plus Dedicated Binaries Servers ==--------

For the full story, check out The IRL Insider site: [link lost in import] After last year's CART incident at Michigan, this could spell the end of open-wheel racing on high-speed ovals as we know it; at the very least, it's going to cause a ton of debate and create some drastic changes at tracks that host open-wheel races. FWIW, Humpy Wheeler has gone on record indicating that he really likes the IRL formula, but he feels they should feature enclosed bodywork, to allow for more "rubbin' and bumpin" -- and now that he's experienced the tragedy at C***te first-hand, you can bet he's going to be even more of an advocate for enclosed bodywork. -- John Bodin Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

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> I went to this race tonight. 3 spectators were killed and 12 were injured on >turn 4. >The race was red flagged and then canceled after 70 laps completed. >Sad ending to what was looking to be a good race. Its really weird because >there were many precautions taken by the track officials, and less than half of >the seats were filled. They left the turn two bleachers empty and part of turn 3 >and 4. >After Michigan, and then this, there will probably be a real shake up. >> I noticed that Humpy Wheeler called the IRL Visioneer 500 after a crash in >> turns 3 and 4. I was watching (Speedvision) and they red-flagged it to >> clean up debris. Then I see Humpy saying this is a night that they >> "...won't soon forget..." >> I know spectators were involved but no word on what happened. I sure hope >> nobody was hurt to badly. The pace was set at 222 mph and, needless to say, >> that's cruisin'. >> They keep slowing down the Champ cars yet IRL is turning ungodly speeds at >> the ovals. I love it just like the next guy but I think after Michigan and >> whatEVER happened tonight we might see some changes. >> Any word on what happened? >> Parke Cochran >> Talladega, AL

There will be a lot of debate and scaremongering, nothing will happen, I saw the accident, it can either not hit spectators, or it can, i sound like a heartless b*stard, but they can't get it safer than it is without placing the stands 100m or so away, and NO fan wants to have to use some binoculars just so they can see the racetrack. Three people died, a tradgedy. But it was a freak occurance, can anyone tell me the last time (apart from Michigan) that this happened? YEARS ago i suspect?? It happens, we all know it does, but I for one would rather see the track. -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

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>I noticed that Humpy Wheeler called the IRL Visioneer 500 after a crash in >turns 3 and 4. I was watching (Speedvision) and they red-flagged it to >clean up debris. Then I see Humpy saying this is a night that they >"...won't soon forget..." >I know spectators were involved but no word on what happened. I sure hope >nobody was hurt to badly. The pace was set at 222 mph and, needless to

say,

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>that's cruisin'. >They keep slowing down the Champ cars yet IRL is turning ungodly speeds at >the ovals. I love it just like the next guy but I think after Michigan and >whatEVER happened tonight we might see some changes. >Any word on what happened? >Parke Cochran >Talladega, AL

Three spectaters were killed by flying debris.

""After last year's CART incident at Michigan, this could spell the end of open-wheel racing on high-speed ovals as we know it;"" John from a fellow IRL Crew member, I sure as hell hope your wrong! Our Prayers and Thoughts go out to the fans who perished doing what they enjoyed... Watching auto racing.... On a side note, will they award a race winner? If so would it be in the order that they were running when the accident occurred?

I remember years ago in an F1 race (sorry I can't think of another example) spectators were killed, the race was classed as void, no result was ever posted, in history books the race never existed. The race was at Switzerland, no-idea what year. -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

IMO, the only way open wheelers can continue to race on enclosed oval tracks is to make them non-oval, i.e., put a chicane in the straights somewhere. Combine 200mph+ speeds with cars that are designed to shed parts during a crash and the tragedies at Michigan and C***te are bound to happen. Thoughts and prayers for all concerned, victims and their families, and the drivers in the fatal accident as well. Jerry Morelock > There will be a lot of debate and scaremongering, nothing will happen, I saw > the accident, it can either not hit spectators, or it can, i sound like a > heartless b*stard, but they can't get it safer than it is without placing > the stands 100m or so away, and NO fan wants to have to use some binoculars > just so they can see the racetrack. > Three people died, a tradgedy. But it was a freak occurance, can anyone tell

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> me the last time (apart from Michigan) that this happened? > YEARS ago i suspect?? It happens, we all know it does, but I for one would > rather see the track. > -- > Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley > ________________________________________________ > Tim Wheatley > "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" > http://start.at/igps_stats > IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver > http://drive.to/grandprixlegends > http://website.lineone.net/~nascar > ________________________________________________

I'm 99.9% sure that's what they'll do here. Apparently Leo Mehl and Humpy Wheeler came to the decision that with the Indy 500 later this month, and 2+ weeks of NASCAR at C***te at the end of this month that it couldn't be rescheduled, and it didn't seem like there was any thought to doing it later in the year. With the race not being at the midpoint, it would seem that it will not exist as far as the points are concerned. -- Ken's Sig 2.01 "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." Go #43 and #44! volksy (at) geocities (dot) com volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com >> On a side note, will they award a race winner? If so would it be in the >> order that they were running when the accident occurred? >I remember years ago in an F1 race (sorry I can't think of another example) >spectators were killed, the race was classed as void, no result was ever >posted, in history books the race never existed. >The race was at Switzerland, no-idea what year. >-- >Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley >________________________________________________ > Tim Wheatley > "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" > http://start.at/igps_stats > IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver > http://drive.to/grandprixlegends > http://website.lineone.net/~nascar >________________________________________________

I do too, but I'm sure that SOMETHING is going to have to be done. This kind of thing just begs for government intervention if the parties involved don't take action. Plus, this is C***te's first fan fatality since opening in 1960, so they're going to want to do something to make the fans feel that they're DOING something to prevent this from happening again. This is also the third year of C***te's three-year contract with the IRL -- let's hope they decide that doing something will make it worth bringing the IRL back in the future. Don't know -- I haven't heard anything yet. I'll keep you posted! -- JB

I can't remember if anyone died, but In a CART race at Phoenix several years ago...Micheal Andrettie sheared off a front wheel after clipping another car on the back straight. the tire bounced down the back straight and zoomed extremely high until it went up onto the spectator hill at the end of the backstraight. I know some folks were hurt but I can't remember if there were any deaths. No fence in existence could have been high enough to catch the bounce. dave henrie >Three people died, a tradgedy. But it was a freak occurance, can anyone tell

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>me the last time (apart from Michigan) that this happened? >YEARS ago i suspect?? It happens, we all know it does, but I for one would >rather see the track. >-- >Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley >________________________________________________ > Tim Wheatley > "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" > http://start.at/igps_stats > IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver > http://drive.to/grandprixlegends > http://website.lineone.net/~nascar >________________________________________________

Also, at a CART road-course race last year or the year before (Mid-Ohio?) I remember a car getting airborne and basically hopping completely over the Armco, skidding toward a large group of fans with only a wooden storm fence between them, luckily the car stopped soon after landing, short of the fans, but I thought there were 50 damn lucky people right there. -- Ken's Sig 2.01 "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." Go #43 and #44! volksy (at) geocities (dot) com volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com > I can't remember if anyone died, but In a CART race at Phoenix several >years >ago...Micheal Andrettie sheared off a front wheel after clipping another car >on the >back straight. the tire bounced down the back straight and zoomed extremely >high >until it went up onto the spectator hill at the end of the backstraight. I >know some folks >were hurt but I can't remember if there were any deaths. No fence in >existence could have >been high enough to catch the bounce. >dave henrie >>Three people died, a tradgedy. But it was a freak occurance, can anyone >tell >>me the last time (apart from Michigan) that this happened? >>YEARS ago i suspect?? It happens, we all know it does, but I for one would >>rather see the track. >>-- >>Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley >>________________________________________________ >> Tim Wheatley >> "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" >> http://start.at/igps_stats >> IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver >> http://drive.to/grandprixlegends >> http://website.lineone.net/~nascar >>________________________________________________

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>> On a side note, will they award a race winner? If so would it be in the >> order that they were running when the accident occurred? >I remember years ago in an F1 race (sorry I can't think of another example) >spectators were killed, the race was classed as void, no result was ever >posted, in history books the race never existed. >The race was at Switzerland, no-idea what year.

Since motor Racing is banned in Switzerland, ever since the horrific 1955 Le Mans crash, that would be some feet of coverup. On a sort of related note, around 80+ spectators were killed in that Le Mans incident. Try sticking to "facts" you don't pull out of your ass. Z.

Could that be THE race i am talking about???*** -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

And do you have some sort of mental problem??? I think you do, seek help, please, try not to infect all out lives. Zonkie? Should be Zonie. -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

ONE more thing, 99 spectators were killed, i DO remember hearing of it, as I am 19 i rely heavily on history books. -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________ > >> On a side note, will they award a race winner? If so would it be in the > >> order that they were running when the accident occurred? > >I remember years ago in an F1 race (sorry I can't think of another example) > >spectators were killed, the race was classed as void, no result was ever > >posted, in history books the race never existed. > >The race was at Switzerland, no-idea what year. > Since motor Racing is banned in Switzerland, ever since the horrific 1955 Le > Mans crash, that would be some feet of coverup. > On a sort of related note, around 80+ spectators were killed in that Le Mans > incident. > Try sticking to "facts" you don't pull out of your ass. > Z.

Indy, 1987. Wheel comes off a car and hits a guy in the highest row, killing him. Calvin ---- So, AOL has a service in Estonia?

: ONE more thing, 99 spectators were killed, i DO remember hearing of it, as I : am 19 i rely heavily on history books. No, I'm pretty sure that the number of fatalities at LeMans in 1955 was 80 (I'm not sure whether or not this includes Mercedes driver Pierre Levegh). I don't recall the number 99, but it may be the number of persons injured. I sincerely hope it remains the worst motor racing accident of all time. Martin Nigel Mansell RIP!

Hi Zonkie! Ever consider that might be the race he was referring to? "Years ago", you catch that part? Good thing you told him off though. Zog

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> >> On a side note, will they award a race winner? If so would it be in the > >> order that they were running when the accident occurred? > >I remember years ago in an F1 race (sorry I can't think of another example) > >spectators were killed, the race was classed as void, no result was ever > >posted, in history books the race never existed. > >The race was at Switzerland, no-idea what year. > Since motor Racing is banned in Switzerland, ever since the horrific 1955 Le > Mans crash, that would be some feet of coverup. > On a sort of related note, around 80+ spectators were killed in that Le Mans > incident. > Try sticking to "facts" you don't pull out of your ass. > Z.

-- Don't let the bastards grind you down. Doug Schneider Bedford, Nova Scotia Canada

Granted it "MAY" be a good idea....but the racing enviroment at an IRL event is vastly different than GP. I would suggest a testing program...but with so few tubs available...who would waste the chassis? on the other hand...there is a large number of previously rebuilt tubs running laps...does the IRL have a maximun crash limit for it's cars. dave henrie

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>>I do too, but I'm sure that SOMETHING is going to have to be done. >F1 has a new regulation requiring that wheels and suspension >components be secured by a strong strap to the chassis. That was >mentioned in a story about the tragedy on ESPN, but unnamed IRL >officials said that it could "create more problems than it solves." I >disagree. The first priority is to do everything possible to protect >spectators. Drivers know that they are putting their lives on the >line to race, but spectators should not.

It had to be before '55 because they banned auto racing in that country after the LeMans wreck where Pierre Leveigh's car went into the stands...

>I do too, but I'm sure that SOMETHING is going to have to be done. F1 has a new regulation requiring that wheels and suspension components be secured by a strong strap to the chassis. That was mentioned in a story about the tragedy on ESPN, but unnamed IRL officials said that it could "create more problems than it solves." I disagree. The first priority is to do everything possible to protect spectators. Drivers know that they are putting their lives on the line to race, but spectators should not.

Attaching the wheels to the vehicle dramtically increases risk to the driver. It gives them a pivot about which to swing back at the driver's head. IMO, the attached wheel idea increases the risk to the driver much more than it decreases any likelyhood of fan injury. Spectators should absolutely be at the top of the priority list where safety is concerned, but the attached wheel idea is sort of pushing the drivers into the "sacrificial lamb" area. They're people too. -- | "Instead of letting the moon be the Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

Let me start by saying i extend tremendous sympathy to the loved ones of the decesed. Now on to my point.... All i can really say is it was a freak accident. I didnt see it (though im sure i eventually will on some news broadcast) but if im pictuing this right it was just a freak thing. A tire flying over a fence thats 15(??) feet high from a car thats against the wall is a VERY freak thing. Not to mention that the fence does have a lip that protrudes over the track some. In my (non expert) opinion this is almost impossible. Granted it does happen but the incidents are few and far between. The fact that this and Michigan occoured less than a year apart is simply a coincidance. It was mentioned before that Indy 87 was the last memorable incident similar. Thats 11 years before Michigan last year and before Indy 87 when was the last one....i dont think anyone remembers. Its impossible to say this cant happen again even if every available measure of saftey is taken. Freak accidents occur and we must live with it. I know there was discussion about this and there WAS a Swiss GP in 75 and one in 82 but they were held in France at Dijon. Perhaps this is the mysterious Swiss GP where spectators were killed???? Chris

> I know there was discussion about this and there WAS a Swiss GP in 75 and one > in 82 but they were held in France at Dijon. Perhaps this is the mysterious > Swiss GP where spectators were killed???? I guess the mysterious crash someone talked about was in the mid 70s at the Spanish F1 GP in Barcelona. This was the old track within the Montjuich park, and the Olympic stadium of 1992 was used for the teams camp. As I recall, the drivers, led by Emerson Fittipaldi, protested against the bad safety, and played a soccer match in the stadium instead of doing practise laps. Finally, the team mechanics helped out in fixing the armcos. In the race, leader Rolf Stommelen's car (Embassy Hill?) jumped over the armco, killing AFAIR 14 spectators, injuring him badly. The race was stopped, and with too few laps being completed, it's quite possible that it was called a "no race", no points were given, and the race never showed up in the record books. Similar to the Nuerburgring, this incident made clear that F1 would never race again there, and a new, modern and safe(r) track had to be build: Circuit de Catalunya, outside of the city. -- ____ /______\_ .\\ a t t h e a d [ XT./~~~~ [ Rex\_____ http://matthead.home.pages.de/ \____/\__]_] 1977' Yamaha XT.Rex 500 Enduro (153 Mm)

Not true. The connection is short enough to not let the wheel bounce back anywhere close to the driver. The problem is that it takes of course a bit of technological development and the will to change something - both things which are certainly not in the 'spirit' of the IRL... --Tel

Certainly that wasn't what he was referring to. The 1955 LeMans race was neither a F1 GP nor was it declared void nor is it located in Switzerland.... not to mention that 24 hours race is very well documented in all history books --Tel

> FWIW, Humpy Wheeler has gone on record indicating that he really likes > the IRL formula, but he feels they should feature enclosed bodywork, > to allow for more "rubbin' and bumpin" -- and now that he's > experienced the tragedy at C***te first-hand, you can bet he's > going to be even more of an advocate for enclosed bodywork. Why not just use the wires or whatever that they now have in F1 to keep the wheels from separating from the chassis? -- Anssi Lehtinen

> Could that be THE race i am talking about???*** Err.. Le Mans is in France. -- Anssi Lehtinen

That's an issue that affects all open-wheel race cars. First of all, the suspension arms should be made of metal rather than carbon fibre - carbon is light and hard, but brittle. Metal can bend and can adsorb some impact energy. And second, they should connect the wheels with a wire to the chassis (like in F1 now). Plus, in case of a crash with broken suspension, there should be a mechanism to pull the wheel quickly closer to the chassis, to prevent bouncing. The wheel even can act as an extra deformation area ("Knautschzone" in German) when it's close to the chassis rather than flying around somewhere in the air. Similar mechanisms are already used in road cars, eg. to tighten the seat belts. -- Matthias Flatt

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>> Attaching the wheels to the vehicle dramtically increases risk to the >>driver. It gives them a pivot about which to swing back at the driver's >>head. IMO, the attached wheel idea increases the risk to the driver much >>more than it decreases any likelyhood of fan injury. Spectators should >>absolutely be at the top of the priority list where safety is concerned, >>but the attached wheel idea is sort of pushing the drivers into the >>"sacrificial lamb" area. They're people too. >Not true. The connection is short enough to not let the wheel bounce >back anywhere close to the driver. >The problem is that it takes of course a bit of technological >development and the will to change something - both things which are >certainly not in the 'spirit' of the IRL...

Sorry in advance for blowing my "high-tech" popoff valve on this one, but you're WAY off base about technological development and the will to change not being in the 'spirit' of the IRL. I take GREAT offense at this, in fact -- safety has been one of the Indy Racing League's top priorities since their inception, and they have made CONTINUAL improvements in the area of driver safety since the new chassis and normally-aspirated engine formula was established in '97. Many of the ***pit safety improvements and impact attenuation materials and techniques that have been developed in the IRL have application in other series, as well. The Indianapolis Motor Speedway is pioneering the use of soft impact material to be used to line the hard, unforgiving concrete walls to lessen the impact when a car hits. Technological development and change are integral parts of the Indy Racing League and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway -- especially in the area of safety. The death of Scott Brayton led to many changes and technological improvements, and Davy Jones' injuries led to further technological advances, changes, and improvements. Apparently these don't count, though. Define for me how other series are innovating in the areas of technology and change, if you would? Or are you just spouting anti-IRL rhetoric? BTW, thanks for reducing this whole thing to "look how inferior the IRL is, blah, blah, blah" level -- and for dragging me in. Thanks also for reminding me why I've been avoiding this newsgroup like a leper colony for the past year or so. -- John Bodin

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>Technological development and change are integral parts of the Indy >Racing League and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway -- especially in the >area of safety. The death of Scott Brayton led to many changes and >technological improvements, and Davy Jones' injuries led to further >technological advances, changes, and improvements. Apparently these >don't count, though. Define for me how other series are innovating in >the areas of technology and change, if you would? Or are you just >spouting anti-IRL rhetoric?

Well, IRL is certainly not something I care enough about to start an argument - but what technological *improvements* or even *advancements* have been introduced there lately? Anything that's differing from what is being used in the established (i.e. international) racing series? Just curious. --Tel

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>>> Attaching the wheels to the vehicle dramtically increases risk to the >>>driver. It gives them a pivot about which to swing back at the driver's >>>head. IMO, the attached wheel idea increases the risk to the driver much >>>more than it decreases any likelyhood of fan injury. >>Not true. The connection is short enough to not let the wheel bounce >>back anywhere close to the driver. >>The problem is that it takes of course a bit of technological >>development and the will to change something - both things which are >>certainly not in the 'spirit' of the IRL... >That's an issue that affects all open-wheel race cars. >First of all, the suspension arms should be made of metal rather than >carbon fibre - carbon is light and hard, but brittle. Metal can bend >and can adsorb some impact energy. >And second, they should connect the wheels with a wire to the chassis >(like in F1 now).

There's a very fine line to walk here. You have to weigh the risk of the metal suspension arms being thrust back through the monococque with the potential energy absorbsion they might provide. I have a hunch that if tubular suspension arms were built for optimum "crushability" they probably wouldn't be strong enough to bear the loads they need to. -- | "Instead of letting the moon be the Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

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>> FWIW, Humpy Wheeler has gone on record indicating that he really likes >> the IRL formula, but he feels they should feature enclosed bodywork, >> to allow for more "rubbin' and bumpin" -- and now that he's >> experienced the tragedy at C***te first-hand, you can bet he's >> going to be even more of an advocate for enclosed bodywork. >Why not just use the wires or whatever that they now have in F1 to keep >the wheels from separating from the chassis?

Is there a picture or diagram of this device somewhere? I'm quite curious about it. I have yet to see it because I'm stuck with dumpy F1 coverage we get here in the States. -- | "Instead of letting the moon be the Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

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> > FWIW, Humpy Wheeler has gone on record indicating that he really likes > > the IRL formula, but he feels they should feature enclosed bodywork, > > to allow for more "rubbin' and bumpin" -- and now that he's > > experienced the tragedy at C***te first-hand, you can bet he's > > going to be even more of an advocate for enclosed bodywork. > Why not just use the wires or whatever that they now have in F1 to keep > the wheels from separating from the chassis? > -- > Anssi Lehtinen

How about making the air exit the tires in case of an accident? The bouncing is a main concern, hard to implement, yes..... Matt -- Matthew Knutsen "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons [link lost in import]

Doesnt seem to be very effective in F1 at the moment, they're still losing wheels :( -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592 > Why not just use the wires or whatever that they now have in F1 to keep > the wheels from separating from the chassis? > -- > Anssi Lehtinen

Closed bodywork won't necesarily help. If I remember rightly, some people were killed at a NASCAR race last year. Mighty

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> For the full story, check out The IRL Insider site: > [link lost in import] > After last year's CART incident at Michigan, this could spell the end > of open-wheel racing on high-speed ovals as we know it; at the very > least, it's going to cause a ton of debate and create some drastic > changes at tracks that host open-wheel races. > FWIW, Humpy Wheeler has gone on record indicating that he really likes > the IRL formula, but he feels they should feature enclosed bodywork, > to allow for more "rubbin' and bumpin" -- and now that he's > experienced the tragedy at C***te first-hand, you can bet he's > going to be even more of an advocate for enclosed bodywork. > -- John Bodin > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/ > > I went to this race tonight. 3 spectators were killed and 12 were injured on > >turn 4. > >The race was red flagged and then canceled after 70 laps completed. > >Sad ending to what was looking to be a good race. Its really weird because > >there were many precautions taken by the track officials, and less than half of > >the seats were filled. They left the turn two bleachers empty and part of turn 3 > >and 4. > >After Michigan, and then this, there will probably be a real shake up. > >> I noticed that Humpy Wheeler called the IRL Visioneer 500 after a crash in > >> turns 3 and 4. I was watching (Speedvision) and they red-flagged it to > >> clean up debris. Then I see Humpy saying this is a night that they > >> "...won't soon forget..." > >> I know spectators were involved but no word on what happened. I sure hope > >> nobody was hurt to badly. The pace was set at 222 mph and, needless to say, > >> that's cruisin'. > >> They keep slowing down the Champ cars yet IRL is turning ungodly speeds at > >> the ovals. I love it just like the next guy but I think after Michigan and > >> whatEVER happened tonight we might see some changes.

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>Hi Zonkie! >Ever consider that might be the race he was referring to? "Years ago", you > catch that part? >Good thing you told him off though. > Zog

Buttmonkey- Unless geography has changed somewhat, or god forbid they begin teaching it to you know nothing North Americans, Le Mans is not in, nor is anywhere near Switerland. They might speak french in some parts of Switzerland, but it is not france. Also. please note, that Le Mans full circuit has not held a GP. Yes- the Bugatti circuit has, but who's mentioning that . Z.

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>>> FWIW, Humpy Wheeler has gone on record indicating that he really likes >>> the IRL formula, but he feels they should feature enclosed bodywork, >>> to allow for more "rubbin' and bumpin" -- and now that he's >>> experienced the tragedy at C***te first-hand, you can bet he's >>> going to be even more of an advocate for enclosed bodywork. >>Why not just use the wires or whatever that they now have in F1 to keep >>the wheels from separating from the chassis?

And witness how effective that device was on Sunday! i think it was (wurz?) who quite clearly lost his.... And that was a quite low speed impact... Z.

>ONE more thing, 99 spectators were killed, i DO remember hearing of it, as I >am 19 i rely heavily on history books. Rely on learning to read, before looking at history books- you might be correct, then. 80 spectators perished in that crash. Z.

I noticed that at least once on Sunday. I think the chain connecting the wheels should at least be done right. A wheel would be more dangerious if it had the chain connecting it still attached than a tire without one. At least we can give them some credit for trying something I guess. I remember watching Spa last year and hoping that no one was around the circuit where the suspension/wheel parts flew off. Something substantial has to be done about suspension/wheeel parts flying off open wheel cars though with six fatalities at two events in less than a year. This idea may sould strange or you can just write me off as crazy. But how about totally enclosing the track, or why not the grandstands??? It would defently be expensive though, a life is priceless though. The events at C***te ruined a great weekend of racing, IMO. I feel for everyone involved. It is aweful how a sport I enjoy so much can have such a bad side to it. I hope something substantial is done to reduce the chances of this sort of thing happening again in the future. Later, John

Where? The last time I remember any debris even going into the stands at a NASCAR race was at the '97 Daytona 500 when Jarrett rolled Earnhardt over the top of Irvan and took the hood off the 28, which flew into the stands, injuring--but not killing--some spectators. Fans were killed at Michigan last year during the CART race--not a NASCAR event. Jerry Morelock

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>>Technological development and change are integral parts of the Indy >>Racing League and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway -- especially in the >>area of safety. The death of Scott Brayton led to many changes and >>technological improvements, and Davy Jones' injuries led to further >>technological advances, changes, and improvements. Apparently these >>don't count, though. Define for me how other series are innovating in >>the areas of technology and change, if you would? Or are you just >>spouting anti-IRL rhetoric? >Well, IRL is certainly not something I care enough about to start an >argument - but what technological *improvements* or even >*advancements* have been introduced there lately? Anything that's >differing from what is being used in the established (i.e. >international) racing series? Just curious. >--Tel

Safety improvements in the past year or so include: Improved head restraints and***pit padding around the driver's heads; increased height and setback on the air intakes above the driver's heads to reduce the possibility of impact; lightened gearboxes and collapsible gear shafts to improve impact attenuation; advanced research in aluminum honeycomb impact attenuators for the rear of the cars' gearboxes, to also improve impact attenuation; relocated front suspension componentry to reduce intrusion into the frontal***pit area; increased tub thickness in the frontal area to further reduce suspension intrusion on impact; double-bulkhead tubs and lengthened frontal structures to provide greater foot protection in frontal impacts; impact-absorbing padding for the retaining walls themselves to lessen crash impact and prevent cars and debris from being propelled back out into traffic (these were used at the Indy IROC race near the pit entry point, and helped cushion Luyendyk's impact in that same race). These things may not be exclusive to the IRL, but this is just a short list, and it should give you an idea of type of improvements and advances that are a part of the IRL's ongoing effort to improve safety. -- JB

Fine, ok, right, ok, right, fine, ok. -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

>Closed bodywork won't necesarily help. If I remember rightly, some >people were killed at a NASCAR race last year. >Mighty No, you remember wrongly. You may be thinking of an incident three years ago at Daytona where a hood flew into the grandstands on the back stretch. One person was cut up pretty badly, but nobody was killed. --- Jet Jaguar I have a spam blocking address. Replying to me is like pulling teeth. Visit my crappy home page at http://home.att.net/~chmilnir/ MSTie #54297 The suspense is terrible. I hope it will last.

: Unless geography has changed somewhat, or god forbid they begin teaching it : to you know nothing North Americans, Le Mans is not in, nor is anywhere near : Switerland. Near is all a matter of perspective. I can drive from Switzerland to Calais in under ten hours. Ten hours of driving is considered "going out to the corner store" in some parts of Canada :) Stephen

We have had a few in Australia at the Speedway events in recent years. Not a hope of keeping the public safe unless you erect 50 foot high fences.

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> I can't remember if anyone died, but In a CART race at Phoenix several > years > ago...Micheal Andrettie sheared off a front wheel after clipping another car > on the > back straight. the tire bounced down the back straight and zoomed extremely > high > until it went up onto the spectator hill at the end of the backstraight. I > know some folks > were hurt but I can't remember if there were any deaths. No fence in > existence could have > been high enough to catch the bounce. > dave henrie > >Three people died, a tradgedy. But it was a freak occurance, can anyone > tell > >me the last time (apart from Michigan) that this happened? > >YEARS ago i suspect?? It happens, we all know it does, but I for one would > >rather see the track. > >-- > >Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley > >________________________________________________ > > Tim Wheatley > > "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" > > http://start.at/igps_stats > > IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver > > http://drive.to/grandprixlegends > > http://website.lineone.net/~nascar > >________________________________________________

The straps on the F1 cars have failed three times already this year, including Sundays race. They gotta make em stronger.

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> >I do too, but I'm sure that SOMETHING is going to have to be done. > F1 has a new regulation requiring that wheels and suspension > components be secured by a strong strap to the chassis. That was > mentioned in a story about the tragedy on ESPN, but unnamed IRL > officials said that it could "create more problems than it solves." I > disagree. The first priority is to do everything possible to protect > spectators. Drivers know that they are putting their lives on the > line to race, but spectators should not.

Dave, No one was hurt in the Phoenix incident. The wheel bounced harmlessly into/near an empty banquet tent. Jim > I can't remember if anyone died, but In a CART race at Phoenix several > years > I > know some folks > were hurt but I can't remember if there were any deaths. >

The standard way to deal with this is to wrap the underlying structural carbon fibers with an unstressed carbon or kevlar "sock", so that you get a "green-stick" fracture, with both pieces remaining connected. The woven appearance of most unpainted carbon fiber you see these days is just the protective "sock". CART is also using a internal tether now to keep the suspension arms intact. Call it the "Senna" rule, if you like. Its intent is to keep the suspension arms from hitting the driver, as happened in his fatal accident at Imola. It won't keep the wheels on the car, though it might well reduce detachments under lighter impacts. Fractures at the hub will still send the wheel assembly flying. Cheers, Steve B. Remove "edy" from address for email

Zonkie: Your incredible tact, diplomacy and courtesy when providing information are in themselves indicators of the obvious superiority of a non-North American intellect. You win, I'm done, see ya. Zog (apparently aka "Buttmonkey")

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> >Hi Zonkie! > >Ever consider that might be the race he was referring to? "Years ago", you > > catch that part? > >Good thing you told him off though. > > Zog > Buttmonkey- > Unless geography has changed somewhat, or god forbid they begin teaching it > to you know nothing North Americans, Le Mans is not in, nor is anywhere near > Switerland. > They might speak french in some parts of Switzerland, but it is not france. > Also. please note, that Le Mans full circuit has not held a GP. Yes- the > Bugatti circuit has, but who's mentioning that . > Z.

-- Don't let the bastards grind you down. Doug Schneider Bedford, Nova Scotia Canada

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>Zonkie: >Your incredible tact, diplomacy and courtesy when providing information are in >themselves indicators of the obvious superiority of a non-North American > intellect. >You win, I'm done, see ya. > Zog (apparently aka "Buttmonkey")

*yawn* you'll have to forgive me if all this off topic stuff bores me and i react as such. If i wanted to read about hick racking, i'd be subsribed to an IRL ng. Z.

Um.... so why did you reply so many times? -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

The thing is, we stop wheels from coming off, ok.... done. How many drivers now die? More, the wheel seperation is a part of the energy dissapation process, remove that and the energy goes somewhere else. -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

Don't know, I just remembered reading about it, but some people take offense when you say something that isn't spelt right, punctuated properly, and doesn't have the right amount of insults in, ask 'Zonkie', he's a master at being a***. Freak accidents occur, that's the way it is! People live, people die, be it for wrong or right, C***te is a 'safe' track, IRL is 'safe', the spectators are 'safe', but when a wheel is vaulted up like that, spectators aren't 'safe', it either happens or it doesn't, nothing needs to be altered to tracks or cars in my opinion, it was a freak accident. IRL races on some of the most dangerous tracks in existense for open-wheelers, but not for the spectators, for the drivers, no matter what racetrack you are at, watching these modern day hero's, you are in danger. 1997 Daytona, a man was hit by the hood of Irvan's car, no-one killed, but it is as much of a serious incident as C***te's tradgedy. Mark Blundell's brake's failed in 1996 at Rio, he slammed the wall, had that happened on a roadcourse or street circuit, god knows what the result would of been, but he wasn't on a roadcourse, he was on an oval, with it's 'safe' confining walls, which ARE THERE to protect the public, catch fencing IS THERE to protect the public, if it was any taller, it would remove it's structural integrity, therefore producing a whole new problem if a whole car could hit it, if it did, it would go through, you HAVE to admit, as things are now, spectating IS safe, i hear of a lot more plane crash deaths than I do motor racing incident. (driver or spectator). Tim My sympathy to all involved and their families. -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

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>> I know there was discussion about this and there WAS a Swiss GP in 75 and >one >> in 82 but they were held in France at Dijon. Perhaps this is the >mysterious >> Swiss GP where spectators were killed???? >> Chris >Don't know, I just remembered reading about it, but some people take offense >when you say something that isn't spelt right, punctuated properly, and >doesn't have the right amount of insults in, ask 'Zonkie', he's a master at >being a***.

Actually i don't get pissed of by poor spelling and puncuation. With my own, i'd be yelling at myself all day. What does***me off is people who represent stuff they might have read once and forgotten but present as bright shiny facts... when in reality it comnes straight from thier ***cavaties. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

HAHAHA oh man! you're hurting my ribs here! HAHA! Please stop! HAHAHA, please try not to be so funny! HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

>HAHAHA oh man! you're hurting my ribs here! HAHA! Please stop! HAHAHA, >please try not to be so funny! HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA Tim, let me assume this is directed at myself- perhaps you should learn how to quote and follow up posts. More importantly, i think you should learn that facts are quite important when making some kind of reasoned argument. All too often people sprout about something they might have read somewhere- once (upon a time) without actually talking about anything that really occured. Since for some reason the existance of this race being "covered" up (que X-files theme) then it was really, the whole point of your post. i think all of us here have a reasonable expectation that any such comment is made with the real knowledge that what you say has some basis in fact. The suggestion by another reader that it may have been one of the spanish races in past is interesting- i will check my flatmates book before. The acceptance of "popular myths or urban legends" as truths simply becase we read them somewhere and they remain unchallanged, is a dangerous form of changing history - witness the new Hollywood film project which will bring up a generation of people thinking that Americans cracked the Enigma code in the US (rather than the British in Buckinghamshire). I find the whole process of accepting heresy as fact rather disturbing- say it enough times and maybe it will "become" true. In anycase, i'll take your flippant replies as defensive against your own knowledge shortcomings. Perhaps it would be time to refresh your memory before postly rashly in future about things it is apparent you know nothing about. Oh, and btw- go *** yourself, idiot. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

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>> I know there was discussion about this and there WAS a Swiss GP in 75 and one >> in 82 but they were held in France at Dijon. Perhaps this is the mysterious >> Swiss GP where spectators were killed???? >I guess the mysterious crash someone talked about was in the mid 70s >at the Spanish F1 GP in Barcelona. This was the old track within the >Montjuich park, and the Olympic stadium of 1992 was used for the teams >camp.

I recall a demo lap or two done by a modern F1 car (Williams/Coulthard?) in the last few years- it was a park seemingly in the hills above Barcelona. (piece was in Autosport (uk) on it.). According to my GP Data book, this was indeed in 1975, and as a result of wing failure. (the book explicity says the track saw some horrific accidents). Four people were killed. (as it says on the cirucit profile.) However, the race was stopped after 29 Laps, as recorded in the season analysis- and half points were awarded for the race. (This accounts for Lombardi's 0.5 points for the 1975 season!) However, In this section, it says 5 spectators were killed by Stommelen's Hill-cosworth on lap 25. So i'm not sure which is correct, 4 or 5 dead. So this race certainly did exist- and remains in the record books. Not the quite the "phantom" covered-up race we are seeking. Yup, and by all accounts, one of the best modern circuits for spectating at- great vanatge points, even in GA. Z.

>However, the race was stopped after 29 Laps, as recorded in the season >analysis- and half points were awarded for the race. (This accounts for >Lombardi's 0.5 points for the 1975 season!) However, In this section, it says >5 spectators were killed by Stommelen's Hill-cosworth on lap 25. Incidentally, according to the lap charts, Stommelen lead for laps 17-21 and 23-25, so he was indeed leading when his rear wing failed. Z.

For goodness sake, take a pill or something and chill out. The last few days are the first time I've ever seen you post to this group and all you've done so far is ***all over people and be incredibly rude. I've tried to ignore you but I'm weak. A significant amount of the information exchanged in this group comes about as the result of casual discussion. Emphasis on "casual". We don't all research a subject to death before we post. Consider that, as you surely will, another shortcoming of we North Americans which you so despise and apparently consider as inferior. All Tim said was he remembered a race from years ago in a certain country where many people died. So he didn't quote line, chapter and verse, he didn't have the names of all the bereaved relatives. What's the big deal? This group is as much about finding out about things as it is knowing about things. If you have all the facts, more power to you, I'm eager to listen and learn and "could" consider you a valuable source of information. However, if the only way you can impart your knowledge to others is with derision and contempt, not to mention foul language, we're better off without you. I'd rather read it in a book. You're obviously intelligent, well informed and an enthusiast, but without a major attitude adjustment you're just more noise. I think the last line of your post pretty much spells it out. What on earth can you believe you're contributing to this group with a statement like that? What would have been so difficult about providing the information you have and correcting Tim and those of us who didn't know all the details (myself included) without the abuse and the "pull facts out of your ass" statement. He didn't state any facts, he simply recalled something he had heard/read about a long time ago. Ok, ball's in your court, rip me apart. I have no doubt you will. I've got buttons sticking out all over me, you just have to press them. Given what I've seen so far, I have to assume that's what gets you off, not racing sims or history. Zog

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> Tim, > let me assume this is directed at myself- perhaps you should learn how to > quote and follow up posts. > More importantly, i think you should learn that facts are quite important when > making some kind of reasoned argument. > All too often people sprout about something they might have read somewhere- > once (upon a time) without actually talking about anything that really > occured. Since for some reason the existance of this race being "covered" up > (que X-files theme) then it was really, the whole point of your post. > i think all of us here have a reasonable expectation that any such comment is > made with the real knowledge that what you say has some basis in fact. > The suggestion by another reader that it may have been one of the spanish > races in past is interesting- i will check my flatmates book before. > The acceptance of "popular myths or urban legends" as truths simply becase we > read them somewhere and they remain unchallanged, is a dangerous form of > changing history - witness the new Hollywood film project which will bring up > a generation of people thinking that Americans cracked the Enigma code in the > US (rather than the British in Buckinghamshire). > I find the whole process of accepting heresy as fact rather disturbing- say it > enough times and maybe it will "become" true. > In anycase, i'll take your flippant replies as defensive against your own > knowledge shortcomings. > Perhaps it would be time to refresh your memory before postly rashly in future > about things it is apparent you know nothing about. > Oh, and btw- go *** yourself, idiot. > Z. > Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

-- Don't let the bastards grind you down. Doug Schneider Bedford, Nova Scotia Canada

Okay, The point of my post was to answer a guys question on what would happen to the 'race results.' I did NOT put across an argument, because there was no contrary point to argue against, nor did I disagree with anything, I was merely trying to answer someone's question, who was obviously wondering whether his team would score any points for the race. I put accross the point that the race could be "void" <...... direct quote, and I gave the only example that I could think of, then, the person replied, thanked me, and said "That is most likely" and indeed it is, and did there need to be any more to it? OF COURSE! because you exist to try to make an argument out of it. Yes.... let me paint myself yellow and strip *** before the world and shout "I WAS WRONG, I MADE A MISTAKE, I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY, 100%, NO NONSENSE, SUPERBLY CORRECT WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT - ZONKIE IS A GOD." Ok? Can we stop this shit now? Quite frankly I'm running out of tissue, wiping your shit off the screen is tedious. I'm not reading this "What Happened... " again, if you want to reply use my e-mail. -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________ .

It was Jacques Villeneuve who did the demo. (No reply needed) -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

>For goodness sake, take a pill or something and chill out. The last few days > are the first >time I've ever seen you post to this group and all you've done so far is *** > all over people >and be incredibly rude. I've tried to ignore you but I'm weak. I've been here for a good 4-5ish? years or so. Why? This is a global group. It's not North-american exclusive. And anyway, take a look at headers, young Tim is from the UK. Go re-read his intial post. I think you'll find he did try to pass off something he knew nothing about as somethign that happened. I'm still not inclinded to believe that a F1 GP resulting in spectator death could be "wiped" from the books. Or indeed, that any F1 Gp could be. Then why did he pursist in saying that 99 people were killed in Le Mans in '55? This is what i am so amazed at. Probably the most well known and documented spectator fatalities in all Motor Racing history, and he continually insisted incorrect facts, which you could find in any historical book, or even just by searching in Alta Vista for "Le Mans" +1955 Oh, i enjoy racing sims, and racing history, but aside from some possible connections to GPL, history is not on-topic here. Therefore, i don't feel the need to deliver my knowledge, but i will jump on what i see as blatant mis-information, intended, or otherwise. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

I was watching the race on Speedvision and 10 mins before the Accident I said what if two of those cars get together and launch the car up into the stands, cause thats what happens when open-wheeled cars do when they touch wheels. Also, I wonder how Lowes feels now after Spending 10 million dollars for the name rights to the C***te Motor Speedway and now this Tradegy happens. Lowes knows how to kill will be their new moto.

Cool, thanks for the info and correction. :> Thanks Jim dave henrie >Dave, >No one was hurt in the Phoenix incident. The wheel bounced harmlessly into/near

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>an empty banquet tent. >Jim >> I can't remember if anyone died, but In a CART race at Phoenix several >> years >> I >> know some folks >> were hurt but I can't remember if there were any deaths. >

The Nuerburgring crash was in '55, right? So was the LeMans crash? TWO major crashes killing spectators in the same year? It's a wonder motor racing wasn't banned altogether... __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Big freakin' deal, he got the number wrong...lighten up. It's STILL 80 deaths too many... :( __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Nope. The Nurburgring incident was a guy's car getting on fire during a bad crash, and F1 never raced there again (but a new track was built). It was in the 1970s. Calvin ---- So, AOL has a service in Estonia?

I assume you know what killfiles are for? I don't want to labour a point here but if you don't like what someone has to say, either add them to your killfile or don't read their posts. Simple. Casual discussion is fine, the representation of an untruth as a fact is something we don't want. Say 1000 people read the post and 100 people believe it as the truth then that isn't good. As far as Zonkie thinking North Americans are inferior, that depends on the North American in question more than the race in general as far as I know. We don't expect a fully researched post but perhaps a brief glance at a book or the web might be in order before making a post like the one that sparked this. For a long time people have covered up mistakes by saying "I was told" or "I read" or similar phrases and Tim did this when he spoke about the crash. If, as he said, he learns his history from books then perhaps he would have been advised to check it before he posted. I am 24 and obviously most of my historical racing knowledge is gleaned from books, magazines, film and talking to people I know. The problem here is that Zonkie expects people to try to verify they don't remember well before they post as he would do. Perhaps his style of response could be a little less harsh but to be honest I don't see how, in this case, it wasn't justified considering the long thread I just read. If Tim had said "oh... sorry... I made a mistake" at the start and not forced a long argument I suspect everything would be good. Personally I don't want to know what gets Zonk off... :P M

The big Le Mans crash was in 1955, and (amongst others) the German GP of that year got cancelled. I was talking about Niki Lauda's fire crash before the Nuerburgring's Bergwerk curve in the German GP of 1976. No spectators involved or harmed. (BTW: the accident was filmed by a spectator, not by TV) According to a book, no spectator got harmed on the Ring after WW2 (the only exception was someone crossing the track). It was already decided that this would be the last F1 race on the Nordschleife, and Hockenheim would host future German GPs. The nearly fatal crash of the defending world champion and lap record holder on the Nordschleife just was the "icing on the cake". It served as a symbol of the potential danger of the Nordschleife and was the confirmation of the much critized move to Hockenheim. But the Lauda crash was not the initial reason to leave the Ring. Some of the problems mentioned years before were eg. that the many hard jumps and bumps on the Ring could and would cause mechanical failures (maybe a broken suspension caused the Lauda crash) especially with the winged cars being faster than ever before. Also, the marshalls and ambulances had long distances to guard and travel (Lauda was lucky that fellow drivers pulled him out). With modern safety precautions, the Lauda would probably been harmless: modern helmets don't come off during crashs as Laudas did. And fire is no more a problem with the smaller (at least one pit stop per race) and foam-filled tanks of today, mounted in the center of the cars. In a interview Lauda described his 1977 Ferrari and said the fuels tanks on the sides had a total capacity of 210 liters! No. You got several crashes and years (Le Mans 1955, Barcelona 1975?, Nuerburgring 1976) mixed up. The spectators killings were two decades apart. It was (and is more or less) in Switzerland. It nearly got banned in Germany. In Italy, the Mille Miglia race on public roads got banned in 1957 after a crash killed several spectators. -- Matthias Flatt