Rest in Peace Ratzenberger and Senna. Stay in Hell FIA White Sharks.

Great Stats, great memories. Senna and Ratzenberger I agree, should not of died. On the two days of 'that' weekend I watched two people die on Live Television, it made a mark on me which has not been removed, it hurt me, it damaged me, and it dis-orientated me as to what life and living was. You seem to have the crash statistics sorted out, what about the factor that affects 99% of racing fatalities? The freak factor. Freak Accidents happen my friend, if Formula One is to be 100% safe, then let us stop it now, and all other motorsport, let motorsport be no more, let us ban cars, ban journey's, let us all live in padded safe rooms where nothing can hurt us. NO, that isn't it is it! Motorsport IS DANGEROUS, the FIA make mistakes, but then again so do ALL Formula One driver's, I saw Senna spin MANY MANY times, and 1994 was one of the FIA's 'spins.' We all make mistakes, don't let the memory of 1st May 1994 bring anger, let it bring memories of the man who made Formula One interesting to me up until 1st May 1994, the man who could make Michael Andretti look second ratein 1993, the man that I believe was THE greatest driver I ever had the pleasure of having signed my t-shirt when i graced Silverstone with my presence, Let 1st May bring memories - Not anger. Tim -- ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS Driver - Ferrari Challenge Driver - NTT Participant http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

> Saturday will be 1 of May of 1994, pardon, of 1999 > Rest in Peace Ratzenberger and Senna. FIY, mathematics and longer front ends can never stop a part of a rod end flying through a drivers visor and through his eye, killing him. This is what happened to Senna. A one in a million occurrence. I'm no great fan of FIA either, but blaming them for Senna & Ratzenbergers deaths are far fetched. Senna would have been just fine if not for that little metal shrapnel. As for Roland, he broke his neck. Motorsports is dangerous, has always been, and will always be. I also seem to remember a HUGE chicane in the place where Senna was killed, built the year after that black weekend. Check your refs before spamming next time, please! Matt -- Matthew Knutsen "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

Senna and Ratzenberger both knew what the risks where if they didnt want to die they shouldnt have been in motorsports cya, Jarno > Saturday will be 1 of May of 1994, pardon, of 1999 > Rest in Peace Ratzenberger and Senna. > Stay in Hell FIA White Sharks (you can find them at http://www.fia.com)

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> Saturday will be 1 of May of 1994, pardon, of 1999 > Rest in Peace Ratzenberger and Senna. > 6. Vinitial_braking_Senna=300Km/h, Gbraking_Senna=-3.75g so > delta_x_braking_Senna=(300/3.6)^2 / (2*3.75*9.81)= 94 m and Senna escape was 5 > (FIVE) meters long. Deus o tenha!

My understanding was that he was a virtually unmarked corpse and that the accident was completely survivable except that the right front wheel pivoted around one unbroken upper suspension piece and caught him right in the head (crushed helmet just above eyehole). Current spec F1 cars reputedly would leave him with nothing but a lot of aches.

>Saturday will be 1 of May of 1994, pardon, of 1999 >Rest in Peace Ratzenberger and Senna. >Stay in Hell FIA White Sharks (you can find them at http://www.fia.com To the best of my knowledge no-one (not even Bernie) controls fate, and fate is what killed both Senna and Ratzenberger. In the case of Senna no-one in the world knew better than he did what risks he would face if he got in the***pit. A difficult car, an emotional weekend, a tough opponent, an expectant audience. The final judge of whether or not to risk YOUR life is you, and any driver can walk away at any point as we have seen Prost and Lauda do in the past. There was no-one like Senna before and certainly not since, and I've missed him greatly in the races. Nothing could make be blame the accident on anyone though - it was simply that, an accident. To be honest I find your diatribe on the FIA quite disturbing. Cheers! John

Another point, if there was no FIA, where would safety be in Formula One? It wouldn't exist. Tim -- ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS Driver - Ferrari Challenge Driver - NTT Participant http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

>Great Stats, great memories. >Senna and Ratzenberger I agree, should not of died. <SNIP SNIP SNIP> Nicely put Tim, I could not have said it better. SteveG

I was in Hockenheim, Germany on the day that Jim Clark died in a silly little Formula 2 or 3 race. Hit a tree on the long straight. Thousands of people in the stands crying. That was over thirty years ago and it's still clear to me. I've raced sprint cars since I was 17 and have lost some friends. Come to think of it, I lost more in Vietnam and none of them wanted to be there. Life goes on.

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> Great Stats, great memories. > Senna and Ratzenberger I agree, should not of died. > On the two days of 'that' weekend I watched two people die on Live > Television, it made a mark on me which has not been removed, it hurt me, it > damaged me, and it dis-orientated me as to what life and living was. > You seem to have the crash statistics sorted out, what about the factor that > affects 99% of racing fatalities? The freak factor. > Tim > -- > ________________________________________________

That person has been posting under various names ever since Senna's accident. He always posts pages and pages of equations and blames the FIA. Normally I catch his posts in rec.autos.sport.nascar (I thought Senna was in F1 :-). Looks like he's spread out now. He is in need of psychiatric help. I can only imagine what he would post if Senna had been a soccer player! God forbid! My feeling is that Senna was not forced into the car and thus he bears as much responsibility, much more so to me, as anyone else. He posts about every two months or so. Watch for him! -- Rich Koehler rgkoehler(at)lucent(dot)com killerk(at)home(dot)com

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>ayrton senna was at times a very uncalcuable pilot......his many on >track shunts have been well documented...as well as his unserviceable >attitude towards his fellow racers.When you strive as hard as he did to >be the best.....you leave many people in your wake......i remember one >instance very well at portugal in 1990 when he purposely ran allessandro >nannini off the road and to me....that said alot about his sportmansship >and his laizez fare attitude when he got behind the wheel.

You obviously don't remember the instance all that well, since as far as memory serves me Nannini finished 6th in Portugal and wasn't even lapped - I don't think he was close to Senna in the whole race. Perhaps you're thinking of Alliot closing the door on Mansell and spinning off into the armco? Tire pressure is monitored and would have been noticed if it was leaking at all. The track sloped upward at the edge and served to launch the cars over the first portion of the gravel trap, thereby minimising any effect it could have. There was minimal run off. There was a concrete wall. It was an accident, and a freak one at that, but to say the track didn't have anything to do with it is plain wrong. Cheers! John

Gravel trap? there was NO gravel trap at Tambarello in 1994. Tim -- ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS Driver - Ferrari Challenge Driver - NTT Participant http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

True... but if you think that's dangerous, take a look back to the tracks of the past. I don't think that the old 14 mile Nburgring is safe to drive on at 60 mph, much less 160 (like you could go that fast there!!! <g>) But I'm gonna have to say that I think that Imola should stay on the schedule as it is a well-designed, competitive race track, unlike Estoril IMHO.... Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited

john john john john.......... i have the tape of the race as i do of every race in F1 as far back as 1984.......i defy you to recant that statement.......or i need a very new ***y well expensive pair of eyeglasses. secondly..... review the events of the race in san marino as they took place.......a lot of debris was on the track when the cars lapped the incident...and who was first to go thru it all?....and a tiny puncture caused by very very sharp edges from carbon fibre debris is VERY comman when it relates to tires going down..especially at running temperature in very very expensive race cars.( a loss of one pound can adversely cause uncalcuable results on a car that at top speed and at the corner it was subjected to at high G force,spells nothing but disaster) are you absolutely positively certain that it was being monitored? can you with out a doubt..understand that just....just that maybe....the team was in a state of flux at the time probably thinking that the race was about to be stopped...as it should have been......and at that moment they were probably more concerned with that and to get ready for a re-start that should have been but never was????....if i do believe my memory is correct...this was the first time that the FIA had instituted it's "safety car' program in a race.....simply put/...the race should have been stopped.......tires from the destroyed cars landed in the crowd for god sakes...killing one and injuring others.....one tire flew so hard at impact...it bounced off the top of the roof of the grandstand!!! since as far (you have a poor memory my friend......nannini was in the top 3 at the time...senna..as he did on many occasions...blew the start....driving at unsafe hell bent for leather speeds to reach back to his "spot" which he didnt give much creedence to how he got it,as long as he did...nannini...was out of the race......broken,DNF'd and wondering why he probably even bothered to be a sportsmen on a grid that included such a selfish individual as mouisuer senna) and as far as senna's tire not being punctured...F1RAcing ran 2 shots of senna coming up on the debris.....with schumacher behind him.....first shot was the debris appearing in a spot on the track that appeared would no doubt..leave it in the on coming track of his left front tire(senna's william's).....and in the 2nd shot....with schumacher as a very good point of reference....showing the debris had moved just as schuie was about to follow in the same track as senna...with the debris suddenly shifted out of that track.....the reason these shots were never brought to the attention of legal authorities is that they were takin by an amateur) in my opinion.....they appeared to be very good untampered reliable photographs that should have, in some way at least, had some bearing in the decision ,if any,as to the probable cause of the events that were to unfold a few short seconds later,but were never given the light of day in any investigation into the matter as they were "heresay" photos. the ones who are to blame for his death?....and never will take any blame?....are the politic that nerves formula one racing.not the owner's of the track....as it was sanctioned as a FIA licenced event......not the team who could be not seen as fault for simply providing the car in which he drove....and not the track itself...which in it's race state provided no more or no less a degree os safety than anyother track that was sanctioned that season. formula one made a glaring bad call that day....one that ended up killing..due to circumstancecs IN thier control,,,,a man...simply a man who enjoyed to race hi-powered race cars. i have watched the tape of the events more than enough times than perhaps the average person and it's a combination of bad calls......poor politics and the high degree to compete and the will to win at all costs that killed ayrton senna that day. i hope we learned alot from it.

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> >ayrton senna was at times a very uncalcuable pilot......his many on > >track shunts have been well documented...as well as his unserviceable > >attitude towards his fellow racers.When you strive as hard as he did to > >be the best.....you leave many people in your wake......i remember one > >instance very well at portugal in 1990 when he purposely ran allessandro > >nannini off the road and to me....that said alot about his sportmansship > >and his laizez fare attitude when he got behind the wheel. > You obviously don't remember the instance all that well, since as far > as memory serves me Nannini finished 6th in Portugal and wasn't even > lapped - I don't think he was close to Senna in the whole race. > Perhaps you're thinking of Alliot closing the door on Mansell and > spinning off into the armco? > >as far as his death is concerned,it was a freak accident....I have > >pictures of track debris from the starting shunt that he ran over prior > >to his control loss at tamburello and the next lap....with his tire > >probably cut and leaking air.... > Tire pressure is monitored and would have been noticed if it was > leaking at all. > >the track didnt have anything to do with it... > The track sloped upward at the edge and served to launch the cars over > the first portion of the gravel trap, thereby minimising any effect it > could have. There was minimal run off. There was a concrete wall. It > was an accident, and a freak one at that, but to say the track didn't > have anything to do with it is plain wrong. > Cheers! > John

>i have the tape of the race as i do of every race in F1 as far back as >1984.......i defy you to recant that statement.......or i need a very >new ***y well expensive pair of eyeglasses. You can't see opinions with glasses - what you have are a bunch of opinions with no evidence of being based in fact. All of the cars went throught it. Senna _might_ have got a puncture from it, then again he might not. He _might_ have had a problem due to a setup being on the limit and tyre pressures being low. He _might_ have found the steering column snapped in his hand. He _might_ have been abducted by aliens. The important thing is not the absence of evidence that something _didn't_ happen, it's having conclusive evidence that it did. The loss of one pound was far more likely caused by falling the safety car at low speed for several laps. No. If any state of flux existed it was several laps earlier. The incident passed long ago, the cars had circulated several times behind the safety car and done one racing lap - that's 10 minutes or more. Anyway, the data capture isn't done by two blokes and a pencil it's done by computer data capture. Even if it wasn't real time the data transfer was made when the car passed the pits, seconds prior to the accident. If there was a puncture the team would have found the data and they've stated the tyres were fine. You don't remember Prost and Hill following the safety car in the British Grand Prix the year before..? In that race, Portugal 1990, Senna made a majestic start, swept passed the front row Ferraris of Prost and Mansell. Berger followed through into second place. Senna went on to win and Nannini finished down in sixth place. Watch your tape. I saw those. Have you ever stood next to a motorway and felt the wind as cars drive by at 70mph? Can you imagine the massive movement of air caused by a car with tens or hundreds of times the downforce passing at 200mph? I'm sure that wouldn't have moved the debris....would it? As before, the important thing is not being able to say that it might have happened. A man who witnessed at first hands the events of the previous two days. A man who knew, better than anyone else, the dangers of the circuit and the difficulty of the car he was driving. A man who was better qualified perhaps than anyone else in the world to judge these factors and decide if they were within or outwith his control. He chose to drive. Of course there are many other factors, but do you think that you, as an interested but untrained observer, are better qualified than Senna to judge what was and was not dangerous? Cheers! John

On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:40:31 +0100, "Tim Wheatley" >Gravel trap? there was NO gravel trap at Tambarello in 1994. There was a fairly large run off area filled with small stones, isn't that a gravel trap? The problem was that a) the stones seemed too hard compressed to actually slow anything done and b) (the main point) thanks to the lip on the track Senna's car flew over the initial portion of it, reducing the distance where brakes would have any effect. Cheers! John

Yesssssssss do bring back Estoril!!!!!!!..... -- Cheers, Poppa Smoke Always remember this... Marines die. But The Marine Corps lives forever. And that means you live forever....... From the outside you can't understand it. From the inside I can't explain it. SEMPER FI !

I think this thread has gone slightly off... The fact is that Senna was killed in a freak fashion by a small part penetrating his helmets visor, and his eye. Had that shrapnel hit a few cms any other way, it might have been different, no matter if it was his column, puncture or whatever. Gerhard Berger had a similair crash at the same spot, and survived, even though there was a huge fire. Motor racing is dangerous. Sennas accident was no worse than those witnessed fairly often on oval circuits. I agree that safety measures should be taken, but in the end, all we'll have are 16 races at magny cours, and that will be even dafter than the current F1.... Like at Le Mans, were youngster Enjolras was killed in practice last year, or Krosnoff's CART accident, it can always happen... Mario Once said : "unfortunately, it (racing) is also this" (of Peterson's death) Matt, a great fan of the sport, not the accidents. -- Matthew Knutsen "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

i'm going to have to send you the tape of the 1990 portuguese gran prix.....you've sadly mistaken it for another..... and the accident occurred on the start that started this whole mess and there was no safety car in formula one in 1993....... senna was a flake......he's even stated publicly that sometimes when he was behind the wheel...he could feel closer to god......sounds like a guy to me that wasnt completely in control of all his faculties now does it....or concentration. what you should be very concerned with...is the fact that all of this was swept under the rug......the italian inquiry stood as a testament to making a mockery of what race fans believed was...the pinnacle of motorsport.since that day....formula one has degraded itself...in a downward spiral...for nothing less but to cover thier tracks under preassure from the insurance industry to clean up thier act. the reason we will never know what really happened that day is because of pompous and snippy no-gut atitudes that you've displayed on your posts for whoever wants to view them...and my hope is that many have. that race should have been stopped.......but it was an excuse for the high uppity up's to display thier new judicial meandering's in focus with the lack of a sturdy agreement(the concorde agreement)and to make it appear to all race fans that they knew what they were doing. well look at the result?.... have the william's data tapes ever been made public?...no..... ever wonder why? let's see how imaginative you can be by answering that query. i'd love to hear it.

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> >i have the tape of the race as i do of every race in F1 as far back as > >1984.......i defy you to recant that statement.......or i need a very > >new ***y well expensive pair of eyeglasses. > You can't see opinions with glasses - what you have are a bunch of > opinions with no evidence of being based in fact. > >review the events of the race in san marino as they took place.......a > >lot of debris was on the track when the cars lapped the incident...and > >who was first to go thru it all? > All of the cars went throught it. Senna _might_ have got a puncture > from it, then again he might not. He _might_ have had a problem due to > a setup being on the limit and tyre pressures being low. He _might_ > have found the steering column snapped in his hand. He _might_ have > been abducted by aliens. The important thing is not the absence of > evidence that something _didn't_ happen, it's having conclusive > evidence that it did. > >expensive race cars.( a loss of one pound can adversely cause > >uncalcuable results on a car that at top speed and at the corner it was > >subjected to at high G force,spells nothing but disaster) > The loss of one pound was far more likely caused by falling the safety > car at low speed for several laps. > >are you absolutely positively certain that it was being monitored? > >can you with out a doubt..understand that just....just that maybe....the > >team was in a state of flux at the time probably thinking that the race > >was about to be stopped...as it should have been......and at that moment > >they were probably more concerned with that and to get ready for a > >re-start that should have been but never was???? > No. > If any state of flux existed it was several laps earlier. The incident > passed long ago, the cars had circulated several times behind the > safety car and done one racing lap - that's 10 minutes or more. > Anyway, the data capture isn't done by two blokes and a pencil it's > done by computer data capture. Even if it wasn't real time the data > transfer was made when the car passed the pits, seconds prior to the > accident. If there was a puncture the team would have found the data > and they've stated the tyres were fine. > >....if i do believe my > >memory is correct...this was the first time that the FIA had instituted > >it's "safety car' program in a race > You don't remember Prost and Hill following the safety car in the > British Grand Prix the year before..? > >(you have a poor memory my friend......nannini was in the top 3 at the > >time...senna..as he did on many occasions...blew the start....driving at > >unsafe hell bent for leather speeds to reach back to his "spot" which he > >didnt give much creedence to how he got it,as long as he > >did...nannini...was out of the race......broken,DNF'd and wondering why > >he probably even bothered to be a sportsmen on a grid that included such > >a selfish individual as mouisuer senna) > In that race, Portugal 1990, Senna made a majestic start, swept passed > the front row Ferraris of Prost and Mansell. Berger followed through > into second place. Senna went on to win and Nannini finished down in > sixth place. > Watch your tape. > >and as far as senna's tire not being punctured...F1RAcing ran 2 shots of > >senna coming up on the debris.....with schumacher behind him.....first > >shot was the debris appearing in a spot on the track that appeared would > >no doubt..leave it in the on coming track of his left front tire(senna's > >william's).....and in the 2nd shot....with schumacher as a very good > >point of reference....showing the debris had moved just as schuie was > >about to follow in the same track as senna...with the debris suddenly > >shifted out of that track..... > I saw those. Have you ever stood next to a motorway and felt the wind > as cars drive by at 70mph? Can you imagine the massive movement of air > caused by a car with tens or hundreds of times the downforce passing > at 200mph? I'm sure that wouldn't have moved the debris....would it? > As before, the important thing is not being able to say that it might > have happened. > >formula one made a glaring bad call that day....one that ended up > >killing..due to circumstancecs IN thier control,,,,a man...simply a man > >who enjoyed to race hi-powered race cars. > A man who witnessed at first hands the events of the previous two > days. A man who knew, better than anyone else, the dangers of the > circuit and the difficulty of the car he was driving. A man who was > better qualified perhaps than anyone else in the world to judge these > factors and decide if they were within or outwith his control. He > chose to drive. > Of course there are many other factors, but do you think that you, as > an interested but untrained observer, are better qualified than Senna > to judge what was and was not dangerous? > Cheers! > John

I have just looked at the video <sad memories :o( > and it was concrete, not gravel or sand. -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________

>i'm going to have to send you the tape of the 1990 portuguese gran >prix.....you've sadly mistaken it for another..... Please do - I just watched it again, Nannini sixth, at Estoril, Senna wins beating Mansell and Prost off the line. Next race was Jerez, where Martin Donnely had his terrible accident. Funny, I must have imagined being at Silverstone and watching Hill and Prost following the safety car round. Was I hallucinating? Do you speak Portugese? Do you know what he said? How do you know he didn't? Take off your blinkers and step out from behind your preconceptions and narrow-minded views. I think all that has been displayed is what you have paraded on the newsgroup. You haven't done yourself any favours (in case you haven't noticed). Because it's required by Italian law? Have you studied Italian law? Please do so, you will learn things that will answer many of your whines. Cheers! John

On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:09:23 +0100, "Tim Wheatley" >I have just looked at the video <sad memories :o( > and it was concrete, not >gravel or sand. <Sigh> Okay....can we just return briefly to the original point which is that the track had a raised edge, which therefore caused the car to be airborne over part of the run off area, reducing the effectiveness of the brakes. We can now argue the grit size of the stones or the sand content of the gravel if you like. Cheers! John

naaaa, that's okay, i didn't say there wasn't a raised edge to the track, I said there was no sand, and there isn't. Anyway..... i'm not carrying this on, this guy isn't listening to ANY of the replies he is getting anyway. -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________ > On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:09:23 +0100, "Tim Wheatley" > >I have just looked at the video <sad memories :o( > and it was concrete, not > >gravel or sand. > <Sigh> Okay....can we just return briefly to the original point which > is that the track had a raised edge, which therefore caused the car to > be airborne over part of the run off area, reducing the effectiveness > of the brakes. > We can now argue the grit size of the stones or the sand content of > the gravel if you like. > Cheers! > John

Well said john. -- Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley ________________________________________________ Tim Wheatley "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror" http://start.at/igps_stats IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver http://drive.to/grandprixlegends http://website.lineone.net/~nascar ________________________________________________ > >i'm going to have to send you the tape of the 1990 portuguese gran > >prix.....you've sadly mistaken it for another..... > Please do - I just watched it again, Nannini sixth, at Estoril, Senna > wins beating Mansell and Prost off the line. Next race was Jerez, > where Martin Donnely had his terrible accident. > >and the accident occurred on the start that started this whole mess and > >there was no safety car in formula one in 1993....... > Funny, I must have imagined being at Silverstone and watching Hill and > Prost following the safety car round. Was I hallucinating? > >senna was a flake......he's even stated publicly that sometimes when he > >was behind the wheel...he could feel closer to god... > Do you speak Portugese? Do you know what he said? How do you know he > didn't? Take off your blinkers and step out from behind your > preconceptions and narrow-minded views. > >the reason we will never know what really happened that day is because > >of pompous and snippy no-gut atitudes that you've displayed on your > >posts for whoever wants to view them...and my hope is that many have. > I think all that has been displayed is what you have paraded on the > newsgroup. You haven't done yourself any favours (in case you haven't > noticed). > >have the william's data tapes ever been made public?...no..... > >ever wonder why? > Because it's required by Italian law? Have you studied Italian law? > Please do so, you will learn things that will answer many of your > whines. > Cheers! > John