Random thoughts about the ACT Labs H-style shifter (rant)

First of all this was a post I did on T.g.s.n. after somebody posted info about that new H-style shifter by ACT Labs. I think it's also appropriate here, because there's some important issues here to talk about. The URL is : http://www.rs2league.com/press/Actlabs/stickshift/preview/shifter_pre in.htm ------ Yeah yeah... looks cute.. probably works well. But it won't work until every wheel manufacturer and software developer create a standard for gear shifting. In every I mean "every". From the big boys of Papyrus to the little company that publishes it's first racing title on the market, sim or arcade type. For those who don't know, it's a H-type sequential shifter. Nice thing, but the software needs to be programmed for it. Or else it's just a up/down shifter (sequential). And I laugh when the article mentions "I can't tell the names but there is some software companies working on this". Nice way to sell that option when at the moment NO racing titles offer that possibility. Especially since many will say "Hey I don't care or want to waste time for a H-shifter". I mean Im sorry but the mass market of racing simulators, even the most serious one, is made of people using joysticks, not wheels. People using a wheel are a fairly low # of users. So they will just don't really care about that idea. Or maybe they will.. who knows. Look at some of the racing sim at the moment : N2 : 1-2-3-4 (reverse is done with a second button). You can't go from 2 to per example 4gear without passing in 3rd. GPL : R-N-1-2-3-4-5(-6) : You can't go from let's say 5th gear into reverse, as with mostly all Papyrus titles. GP2 : R-N-T-N-1-N-2-N-3-N-4-N-5-N-6-N Neutral is when you press the button and stay with it. Im talking here about the up shifting possibilities, because when you disable the turn-around on itself it takes off the T on certain situation. How can you monopolize when you got all those different gearing situations ? It's not like tomorrow every company will go and say "ok we will go with that idea". And what if somebody goes from 1 to 5.. will it go like this : 1-N-N-5 ? (since you pass 2 times in Neutral position per example). So let's see.. Papyrus : probably won't approve this for N3 (probably too deep in development). SportsCar GT no. All the current racing sims on the market from Papy, Microprose, Microsoft : No. Codemaster maybe. Ubisoft probably but it would be unrealistic to Formula 1 racing. TAR maybe. Im not saying it's not a good idea (the idea is great), but I just can't see it doing good. Especially if they don't want to make it possible for other types of wheel and they patent that shifter. Im just worried that it's maybe 2years too late. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

The URL is : http://www.rs2league.com/press/press.htm My name is "Jason"... not... "some guy" and I thought you'd appreciate the sneak peak. As I posted in the TSGN... I cannot release a lot of the technical data that will answer a LOT of your questions/issues to a tee. So my advice to you is to stay tuned, and wait for the indepth release coming very soon... IT WILL ANSWER THEM... Cheers, -- Jason Murray (Shumi) Eisen Racing RS2League Coordinator: http://www.rs2league.com >First of all this was a post I did on T.g.s.n. after somebody posted info >about that new H-style shifter by ACT Labs. I think it's also appropriate >here, because there's some important issues here to talk about. The URL is >: >http://www.rs2league.com/press/Actlabs/stickshift/preview/shifter_pre... a >in.htm >------ >Yeah yeah... looks cute.. probably works well. But it won't work until >every wheel manufacturer and software developer create a standard for gear >shifting. In every I mean "every". From the big boys of Papyrus to the >little company that publishes it's first racing title on the market, sim or >arcade type. >For those who don't know, it's a H-type sequential shifter. Nice thing, but >the software needs to be programmed for it. Or else it's just a up/down >shifter (sequential). And I laugh when the article mentions "I can't tell >the names but there is some software companies working on this". Nice way >to sell that option when at the moment NO racing titles offer that >possibility. >Especially since many will say "Hey I don't care or want to waste time for a >H-shifter". I mean Im sorry but the mass market of racing simulators, even >the most serious one, is made of people using joysticks, not wheels. People >using a wheel are a fairly low # of users. So they will just don't really >care about that idea. Or maybe they will.. who knows. >Look at some of the racing sim at the moment : >N2 : 1-2-3-4 (reverse is done with a second button). You can't go from 2 >to per example 4gear without passing in 3rd. >GPL : R-N-1-2-3-4-5(-6) : You can't go from let's say 5th gear into >reverse, as with mostly all Papyrus titles. >GP2 : R-N-T-N-1-N-2-N-3-N-4-N-5-N-6-N Neutral is when you press the >button and stay with it. Im talking here about the up shifting >possibilities, because when you disable the turn-around on itself it takes >off the T on certain situation. How can you monopolize when you got all >those different gearing situations ? It's not like tomorrow every company >will go and say "ok we will go with that idea". >And what if somebody goes from 1 to 5.. will it go like this : 1-N-N-5 ? >(since you pass 2 times in Neutral position per example). >So let's see.. >Papyrus : probably won't approve this for N3 (probably too deep in >development). SportsCar GT no. All the current racing sims on the market >from Papy, Microprose, Microsoft : No. Codemaster maybe. Ubisoft probably >but it would be unrealistic to Formula 1 racing. TAR maybe. >Im not saying it's not a good idea (the idea is great), but I just can't see >it doing good. Especially if they don't want to make it possible for other >types of wheel and they patent that shifter. Im just worried that it's >maybe 2years too late. >-- >-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> >-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ >-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ >-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. >-- May the Downforce be with you... >"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Sorry for calling you "some guy" ;-) I appreciated it, I wasn't targeting you but mostly ACT Labs. Like I said on T.g.s.n. (eh sorry if I cross-post my comments), it's vaporware. It's a great idea, but vaporware. I mean r.a.s people do the same for software press-release or previews (like per example the "LeMans" racing game), so there's nothing wrong with doing this for a hardware. We have talked on r.a.s about that type of shifter for years, with in-depth discussion with even major people from wheel manufacturers, so there's nothing wrong with what I said. I know your just the medium here, nothing wrong with that :) It looks very convincing, and as you can read Im just wondering myself about how they did it both hardware and software side, and both from the manufacturer and PC software developer side. Thanks ! :) If you can it would be a neat idea to build yourself the correct shifter styles (like a simple H-pattern to not go further into the HH (<-- think this is the 8-way shifter)). -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I think this has some GREAT possibilities. Imagine driving a Penske-prepared 1969 Z-28 Camaro in the upcoming Trans Am Racing title with an actual H-pattern shifter . . . nirvana! This sounds EXACTLY like the kind of nay-saying that people were proclaiming about the future of Force Feedback controls . . . until companies like Microsoft, Logitech, Saitek, and ACT Labs brought out their extraordinary interpretations of Force Feedback hardware (and companies like MGI and EA began producing games with some truly excellent games that support FF effects). Never say never -- if everybody has to get on the bandwagon, you'll usually be surprised to find that it's a HUGE bandwagon that they have to climb on to, and everybody seems to want to climb on board once the first lemming jumps. <G> Yeah, this I agree with -- which is why there are NO sims out there that support split-axis brake and throttle controls. I mean, how many people out there actually have PEDALS to begin with, let alone pedals that can support split-axis operation? I mean, every game company surely knows that everybody plays these driving games on a keyboard, right? And when was the last time you tried to find a driving wheel and pedal combo at someplace like Best Buy or CompUSA? There's just NO market for these kinds of things, right? <G> GT Interactive is gearing up to produce the next Indy 500/Indy Racing League simulation right now. The IRL is moving towards sequential gearboxes, but nobody says that GT Interactive is going to focus *solely* on a modern perspective on the Indy 500 -- and a whole bunch of Indy cars in the past prior to the CART era used standard H-pattern shifters (can you say "Indy 500 Racing Legends?" Remember, you heard it from me first . . . <G>). Then there's the aforementioned Trans Am Racing, also from GT Interactive -- definitely a natural for an H-pattern shifter. Do you really think that ACT Labs would cart out hardware that has absolutely NO games to support it? Something's in the works, you can be sure -- and be prepared to be surprised. Sure a Force Feedback patch for GPL would be nice, but Papy doesn't view FF as the way to go. They haven't said anything about OTHER advanced hardware, like ACT Labs' H-pattern shifter . . . They didn't say they WEREN'T going to produce a stand-alone product, either, though, so they may make a version that will function separate from the RS wheel itself. You may not be able to sell an ACT Labs RS wheel to someone who owns an ECCI or TSW rig, but you can bet those folks *might* consider purchasing a stand-alone shifter (I know I would!). -- John Bodin "Be kind -- don't snip the messages (we like 'em long)!"

Yes I really do like this idea.. In fact it is an advantage to be able to shift multiple gears compared to going down 1 by 1. Especially if you understeer, instead of going down gears (and maybe even hitting the neutral depending on how it's modeled), it can be the 0.01 advantage that gets you a pole or the win :) Ah yes I see. That's exactly why I mentionned that hopefully there will be a standard for this. It would be great to see on both side (hardware manufacturers and *** developpers) go and standardise (sp?) it. But like I said it would be very difficult at first, considering that users with wheels are a fairly low % of racing game sales and that there's always some new-commer that wouldn't want to, or maybe they would, who knows :) There's major steps ahead in controller issues. Force Feedback pedals, H-type shifter, an actual steel Force-Feedback wheel, etc... plus you have the whole advancement in plastic-type materials to create more long-lasting wheel parts. I see what ACT Labs do as a step, but I mean the world is not perfect :) And for your remarks, be sure that most of the sims don't even support split-axis. Microsoft "just" did that but still they only modeled that it can be possible, since the car doesn't act correctly if you press both pedals in MMMadness. Hmm I forgot GT Interactive, so you have a point. Indy 500Racing legends is a neat idea, still, and I could see the utility of that shifter if thus software is in developement. Wow the more I think the better the idea. I never thought they could use their Indy and IRL license to do that.. hmm interesting <drools>. If they do it the correct way (assuming it will be a standard), I would guess they will make it only available for their wheels, and after half a year to a year they will sell their patent to other companies or at least offer it afterall, at a higher price than the one for ACTLabs wheels 8) I have a custom-built wheel here made from mostly CH Products (the excellent EXL wheel and CH pedals modified), and I would seriously want such a thing. I don't like my shifter on the side, and I mean... it looks cool visually also no ? :)> (and I got a spare racing-quality shifter somewhere in the garage hehe). -- Time for bed now... -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

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>> I think this has some GREAT possibilities. Imagine driving a >> Penske-prepared 1969 Z-28 Camaro in the upcoming Trans Am Racing title >> with an actual H-pattern shifter . . . nirvana! >Yes I really do like this idea.. In fact it is an advantage to be able to >shift multiple gears compared to going down 1 by 1. Especially if you >understeer, instead of going down gears (and maybe even hitting the neutral >depending on how it's modeled), it can be the 0.01 advantage that gets you a >pole or the win :) >> This sounds EXACTLY like the kind of nay-saying that people were >> proclaiming about the future of Force Feedback controls . . . until >> companies like Microsoft, Logitech, Saitek, and ACT Labs brought out >> their extraordinary interpretations of Force Feedback hardware (and >> companies like MGI and EA began producing games with some truly >> excellent games that support FF effects). Never say never -- if >> everybody has to get on the bandwagon, you'll usually be surprised to >> find that it's a HUGE bandwagon that they have to climb on to, and >> everybody seems to want to climb on board once the first lemming >> jumps. <G> >Ah yes I see. That's exactly why I mentionned that hopefully there will be >a standard for this. It would be great to see on both side (hardware >manufacturers and *** developpers) go and standardise (sp?) it. But like >I said it would be very difficult at first, considering that users with >wheels are a fairly low % of racing game sales and that there's always some >new-commer that wouldn't want to, or maybe they would, who knows :) >> Yeah, this I agree with -- which is why there are NO sims out there >> that support split-axis brake and throttle controls. I mean, how many >> people out there actually have PEDALS to begin with, let alone pedals >> that can support split-axis operation? I mean, every game company >> surely knows that everybody plays these driving games on a keyboard, >> right? And when was the last time you tried to find a driving wheel >> and pedal combo at someplace like Best Buy or CompUSA? There's just >> NO market for these kinds of things, right? <G> >There's major steps ahead in controller issues. Force Feedback pedals, >H-type shifter, an actual steel Force-Feedback wheel, etc... plus you have >the whole advancement in plastic-type materials to create more long-lasting >wheel parts. I see what ACT Labs do as a step, but I mean the world is not >perfect :) >And for your remarks, be sure that most of the sims don't even support >split-axis. Microsoft "just" did that but still they only modeled that it >can be possible, since the car doesn't act correctly if you press both >pedals in MMMadness. >> GT Interactive is gearing up to produce the next Indy 500/Indy Racing >> League simulation right now. The IRL is moving towards sequential >> gearboxes, but nobody says that GT Interactive is going to focus >> *solely* on a modern perspective on the Indy 500 -- and a whole bunch >> of Indy cars in the past prior to the CART era used standard H-pattern >> shifters (can you say "Indy 500 Racing Legends?" Remember, you heard >> it from me first . . . <G>). >Hmm I forgot GT Interactive, so you have a point. Indy 500Racing legends is >a neat idea, still, and I could see the utility of that shifter if thus >software is in developement. Wow the more I think the better the idea. I >never thought they could use their Indy and IRL license to do that.. hmm >interesting <drools>.

Keep in mind that the idea of an historic Indy 500 sim is pure speculation on my part -- but given the success of GPL, I think GT Interactive should definitely be considering something along these lines. Nobody at GT Interactive is asking me, of course, but I hope to rectify that in the near future! <G>

claimed: i take it as just some creative way to SPAM... after all, it's only usable for actlabs customers anyway. ;-] tomasd

Francois, the double HH allows for the single H with the insert. This is a very flexible design, please think about what you said. Tore Hanson

Not necessarily Tom. I use the PDPI L4 gamecard. I wrote PDPI to find out if and how it can work with my NascarPro controller. Tore Hanson >claimed: >>First of all this was a post I did on T.g.s.n. after somebody posted info >>about that new H-style shifter by ACT Labs. I think it's also appropriate >>here, because there's some important issues here to talk about. The URL is >i take it as just some creative way to SPAM... after all, it's only >usable for actlabs customers anyway. ;-] >tomasd

Exactly. The main problem is that it's really just an add-on for the Actlab wheels - something only a very small minority owns, and I certainly won't buy such a wheel just to be able to use that H-shifter. I see no software company patch their software either, Papyrus for example do not even think about FF, why about such an *** device? And the rest either have already marketing contracts with other developers or build wheels themselves (Microsoft). It's nice yes, but at the moment (and foreseeable future) of little use for most simracers. --Tel

> ------ > Yeah yeah... looks cute.. probably works well. But it won't work until > every wheel manufacturer and software developer create a standard for gear > shifting. In every I mean "every". From the big boys of Papyrus to the > little company that publishes it's first racing title on the market, sim or > arcade type. You don't need any "standard"! All you need is the ability to map each gear in a sim to a different key stroke. You can already select which key or button you want for upshifting and downshifting. For those unfamiliar with ACT Labs, they make all sorts of programmable joystick controllers. I would imagine that the H-shifter will be able to support older sims through this programmability, and won't necessarily have to be supported directly by software. For example, in GPL, if you downshift from 5th to 2nd, the shifter can output the downshift command 3 times. This isn't perfect - it will be better if the software could recognize the non-sequential shift and go directly from 5th to 2nd, but it's not a useless feature either. BTW, how long ago was the idea floated to allow each individual gear in a sim to be mapped to a different keystroke? Sim developers should get off their lazy ***** and implement that simple feature! :) It amazes me that there are companies out there willing to commit to building hardware that will improve driving sims immensely, yet they have trouble getting the needed software support. That mere users willingly accept that, and criticize the hardware makers for their effort, leaves me speechless. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

He never thinks about what he says. That's why he comes off looking like an idiot all of the time.

> He never thinks about what he says. > That's why he comes off looking like an idiot all of the time. Bollocks. Hide under your nospam address. I was talking about going too far in the HH. It can happen sometimes you know.. Now think before you post, next time. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

> You don't need any "standard"! All you need is the ability to map > each gear in a sim to a different key stroke. You can already > select which key or button you want for upshifting and downshifting. Ah indeed.. I know this was one of the most predilected idea when we were talking about the H-style shifter. So it's a confirmation that ACT modeled it that way ? I totally agree... -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Well, according to the preview, the shifter has metal inserts to prevent you from going to far, and as for the complaint of not enough support: well not only is there support coming from more than 11 developers, but don't forget that a simple patch would probably do the trick for most games. I don't think you'd have to write the whole game with the H shifter in mind. But, let's just wait and let the criticisims wait until the product is actually out. -Josh de Bever

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> > He never thinks about what he says. > > That's why he comes off looking like an idiot all of the time. > Bollocks. Hide under your nospam address. > I was talking about going too far in the HH. It can happen sometimes you > know.. > Now think before you post, next time. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> > -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ > -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ > -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Hey guys, we have been working on the shifter since last November. The software company support has been fantastic and you can expect a number of games compatible upon release. Actually the Sports Car GT guys gave it a cool name, "Free Shifting" mode. I can tell you in my test runs the sound of the stick clicking into gear in terms of game audio and the feeling is killer. The stick shifter as pictured is a mountable unit (left or right) designed to fit nicely with the RS shape. A cable leads from the shifter unit to our metallic shifter cartridges (included when you buy a shifter) and plugs in there, then into the wheel itself with our cartridge technology. The discs that are removable give you the different patterns for the variety of motorsport genres. We gave the shifter a double H pattern to accomodate users who wanted to play F1 and Rally games with a shifter rather than the normal sequential method of shifting. Our Indycar/Nascar/*** plate cuts the number of gears down and makes room for the staggered reverse gear (which has extra resistance to get into like a real car heh)... I just wanted to kick in my 2 cents and assure you guys this isn't vapourware, we will ship it in August and have it on display at E3 with a couple games in "full gear" mode... Pat Dotson was right, hitting 2nd gear from 4th coming into a corner is definetly a bonus and that was what started our creative juices flowin' last fall. ;) Brandon Crick VP of Development ACT LABS http://www.act-labs.com

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> Well, according to the preview, the shifter has metal inserts to prevent you > from going to far, and as for the complaint of not enough support: well not > only is there support coming from more than 11 developers, but don't forget > that a simple patch would probably do the trick for most games. I don't > think you'd have to write the whole game with the H shifter in mind. But, > let's just wait and let the criticisims wait until the product is actually > out. > -Josh de Bever > > > He never thinks about what he says. > > > That's why he comes off looking like an idiot all of the time. > > Bollocks. Hide under your nospam address. > > I was talking about going too far in the HH. It can happen sometimes you > > know.. > > Now think before you post, next time. > > -- > > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> > > -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ > > -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ > > -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. > > -- May the Downforce be with you... > > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."