SCGT vs Viper

I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ? I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However, it is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car. I was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would like some unbiased input. Thanks

Well, I didn't like it well enough to keep it, but scgt is awfully good. Definitely get the editor to turn up the ai and use all the cheats. The lighting and special effects are excellent! It's similar to viper. I am looking forward to trans-am and le mans and without a doubt will buy n3 as soon as it comes out. It all boils down to personal preference. I simply prefer the impossible physics of GPL. The title of a post I made a few months ago may tell you something. Has GPL rasied the bar too high? JM

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> I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with > full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ? > I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However, it > is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car. I > was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it > from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would like > some unbiased input. > Thanks

GT is very good. Better graphics than viper and more variety but compared to the *** and life like ai in viper the drivers in SCGT are a bunch of slow wussies... Its completely killed any long term value in the game for me. -ilmore

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>I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with >full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ? >I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However, it >is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car. I >was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it >from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would like >some unbiased input. >Thanks

I've heard several people say that the graphics in the release version of SCGT are better than the graphics in Viper Racing. I was unimpressed with the graphics in the SCGT demo -- the "pop-up" effect of the trees on the horizon was WAY too annoying for me. Can somebody tell me how the graphics in the SCGT final release compare to the graphics in the demo, and whether or not they have eliminated the "pop-up" trees? -- JB P.S. It's great to find someone besides me who's impressed with the AI in Viper Racing! <G> On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:52:00 +1000, "ilmore"

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>GT is very good. Better graphics than viper and more variety but compared to >the *** and life like ai in viper the drivers in SCGT are a bunch of slow >wussies... Its completely killed any long term value in the game for me. >-ilmore >>I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with >>full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ? >>I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However, it >>is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car. I >>was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it >>from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would like >>some unbiased input. >>Thanks

Just had to say this...why would you be looking at the trees? Shouldnt you be looking at the road? ;-) Adam

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>I've heard several people say that the graphics in the release version >of SCGT are better than the graphics in Viper Racing. I was >unimpressed with the graphics in the SCGT demo -- the "pop-up" effect >of the trees on the horizon was WAY too annoying for me. Can somebody >tell me how the graphics in the SCGT final release compare to the >graphics in the demo, and whether or not they have eliminated the >"pop-up" trees? >-- JB >P.S. It's great to find someone besides me who's impressed with the >AI in Viper Racing! <G> >On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:52:00 +1000, "ilmore" >>GT is very good. Better graphics than viper and more variety but compared

to >>the *** and life like ai in viper the drivers in SCGT are a bunch of slow

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>>wussies... Its completely killed any long term value in the game for me. >>-ilmore >>>I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with >>>full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ? >>>I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However, it >>>is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car. I >>>was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it >>>from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would like >>>some unbiased input. >>>Thanks

Have you tried the SCGT Advanced Options editor V2.1? The "Pure Simulation" and "60's Sportscar" modes make the physics much more difficult to drive - the 60's mode actually reminded me a bit of driving GPL. I personally prefer SCGT to Viper, and a huge reason is the cars and tracks. I love the selection of cars in SCGT, and I love the real tracks. The 2 biggest put-offs to me in Viper were the lack of sense of speed and the bland made-up tracks. As someone else on this forum put it, you expect to see Road Runner around the next corner of the tracks on Viper.

Good question, actually, but in all seriousness, I'm not watching the trees at all. While watching the next apex with traffic in front of you, though, any movement that catches your eyes (or my eye, anyway), equates to a possible traffic issue, and I really don't need distractions like that in the heat of battle for position. Scenery isn't supposed to appear and disappear like it does in the SCGT demo; trees may sway in the wind, but they don't "pop-up" magically. These type of distractions take me right out of the game as surely as a ringing cell phone in a movie theater can take me out of the story line, thus ruining the overall experience -- and THAT really ruins the sim racing experience for me. Hence the question about the trees. So, I'll ask again -- are they still "popping up" in the final release? -- JB On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 05:15:45 -0400, "Adam Zerlin"

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>Just had to say this...why would you be looking at the trees? Shouldnt you >be looking at the road? ;-) >Adam >>I've heard several people say that the graphics in the release version >>of SCGT are better than the graphics in Viper Racing. I was >>unimpressed with the graphics in the SCGT demo -- the "pop-up" effect >>of the trees on the horizon was WAY too annoying for me. Can somebody >>tell me how the graphics in the SCGT final release compare to the >>graphics in the demo, and whether or not they have eliminated the >>"pop-up" trees? >>-- JB >>P.S. It's great to find someone besides me who's impressed with the >>AI in Viper Racing! <G> >>On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:52:00 +1000, "ilmore" >>>GT is very good. Better graphics than viper and more variety but compared >to >>>the *** and life like ai in viper the drivers in SCGT are a bunch of >slow >>>wussies... Its completely killed any long term value in the game for me. >>>-ilmore >>>>I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with >>>>full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ? >>>>I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However, it >>>>is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car. I >>>>was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it >>>>from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would like >>>>some unbiased input. >>>>Thanks

In my book, SCGT is far better than Viper (which I have deleted): -- far, far better tracks -- equal or better graphics -- using the physics editor to put it "pure sim" mode, the physics are very good, and not that far from GPL -- good variety cars to race with and against -- pit stops, pit stops, and pit stops (none in Viper) -- good rain and night modes -- good car setup options (no saving setups though) -- AI is at least as good as Viper, although too aggressive sometimes (is the behavior editable?) -- AI cars use same physics as human -- it is simply a *lot* of fun, much more so, in some ways, than GPL SCGT isn't perfect (I am leaving out some negatives), but with an update or two it could be classic. I wonder if ISI or EA realize that they have a potential gem here, if they can just polish some of the rough edges. However, in its current incarnation, it is still much better than Viper. Jim Getzen The Pits - www.theuspits.com

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>I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with >full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ? >I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However, it >is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car. I >was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it >from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would like >some unbiased input. >Thanks

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>I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with >full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ? >I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However, it >is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car. I >was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it >from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would like >some unbiased input. >Thanks

I enjoy both titles, however I have been playing SCGT exclusively since I got it a couple of days ago (I imagine I will return to Viper racing once the "newness" of SCGT wears off a little). In regards to the games: AI I think SCGT has the edge hear. All those posts about wheel-wheel racing are pretty accurate. I actually prefer to be middle of the pack than out front because you're right in the action. Viper racing has decent enough AI (of course, coming from NFS 3, it isn't tough to one-up my expectations) but I find the pack gets pretty spread-out so you don't get the constant action like you do in SCGT. Force Feedback I agree with the consensus that Viper has pretty much the finest force feedback effects of any racing game. SCGT seems really lame in this department. The only effects I notice in SCGT are from the rumblestrips and when I bump another car. Graphics I would give the edge to SCGT however since I am running a lowly P200 with the original Diamond Monster 3d, I don't have either game turned up too high. In regards to framerate, I would give the nod to Viper. Sound Haven't tried the SCGT sound patch yet, but until then, Viper wins here. Overall To really make this as clear as mud I would recommend both games. If you have a FF wheel, the effects in Viper racing are not to be missed. If they could get a patch out for SCGT with similar effects, I think it could really take over my time from Viper. Until then, I will probably keep them both installed. -Bill

>P.S. It's great to find someone besides me who's impressed with the >AI in Viper Racing! <G> I'm, too. They behave almost like humans, including bonehead moves at times. :) The only part I dislike is that they suddenly slow down for no good reason on the start/finish straight of the ovals. Did anybody else see this? -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

>>P.S. It's great to find someone besides me who's impressed with the >>AI in Viper Racing! <G> >I'm, too. They behave almost like humans, including bonehead moves at >times. :) The only part I dislike is that they suddenly slow down for >no good reason on the start/finish straight of the ovals. Did anybody >else see this? I've noticed this, too -- but it only seems to happen on the first lap (great for grabbing position, though! <G>). -- JB >-- >Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Im sure your looking forward to returning those games too ;) Art Stealth Racing http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html

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> Well, I didn't like it well enough to keep it, but scgt is awfully good. > Definitely get the editor to turn up the ai and use all the cheats. The > lighting and special effects are excellent! It's similar to viper. I am > looking forward to trans-am and le mans and without a doubt will buy n3 as > soon as it comes out. It all boils down to personal preference. I simply > prefer the impossible physics of GPL. The title of a post I made a few > months ago may tell you something. Has GPL rasied the bar too high? > JM > > I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with > > full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ? > > I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However, it > > is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car. I > > was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it > > from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would like > > some unbiased input. > > Thanks

Only time will tell bud. JM

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> Im sure your looking forward to returning those games too ;) > Art > Stealth Racing > http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html > > Well, I didn't like it well enough to keep it, but scgt is awfully good. > > Definitely get the editor to turn up the ai and use all the cheats. The > > lighting and special effects are excellent! It's similar to viper. I am > > looking forward to trans-am and le mans and without a doubt will buy n3 as > > soon as it comes out. It all boils down to personal preference. I simply > > prefer the impossible physics of GPL. The title of a post I made a few > > months ago may tell you something. Has GPL rasied the bar too high? > > JM > > > I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with > > > full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ? > > > I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However, it > > > is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car. I > > > was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it > > > from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would like > > > some unbiased input. > > > Thanks

Viper is better, looks better, plays better, but SCGT is a pretty good game too. Viper is the most realistic racing game ever if you race in bumper view, otherwise it's a bit slow. GPLegends fans are in denial, those cars never handled that badly, and it often feels like you can't control a car that's only traveling at 50mph, [ all this talk of realism is nonsense, it's not like anybody here actually drove any of those cars ]

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>Only time will tell bud. >JM >> Im sure your looking forward to returning those games too ;) >> Art >> Stealth Racing >> http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html >> > Well, I didn't like it well enough to keep it, but scgt is awfully

good. >> > Definitely get the editor to turn up the ai and use all the cheats. The >> > lighting and special effects are excellent! It's similar to viper. I am >> > looking forward to trans-am and le mans and without a doubt will buy n3 as >> > soon as it comes out. It all boils down to personal preference. I simply

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>> > prefer the impossible physics of GPL. The title of a post I made a few >> > months ago may tell you something. Has GPL rasied the bar too high? >> > JM >> > > I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with >> > > full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ? >> > > I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However,

it >> > > is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car. I >> > > was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it >> > > from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would like >> > > some unbiased input. >> > > Thanks

I have to agree with you on the GPL thing a bit. It makes me laugh everytime someone says something like "It's a perfect simulation of racing Gran Prix cars that hard to drive - I saw someone post the other day that they drove GPL for 2 hours without wrecking once, and it was treated as a major accomplishment. If that were really true, no one would have ever finished a race, and certainly no one could have afforded to replace their cars after every race. I have, however, always attributed this to the fact that I'm at my PC and not actually in one of those things. GPL seems to refuse to make any concessions regarding this, which is fine for some, but I've come to rather resent that fact. As for Viper, I can't agree with your reccomendation over SCGT. While Viper does contain features that I wish were in SCGT, I think SCGT's cars and especially tracks look much better and more realistic. (though considering the latter are actually based on real tracks, this is not suprising.) I, personally, think that the higher level cars in SCGT drive better than the Vipers in Viper - especially with the Advanced Options editor. They are close, though. I like it that both games include a career mode style of gameplay, but SCGT wins here on sheer variety. If Viper had real tracks and pit stops, it would be a much harder call, but as it is, I prefer SCGT.

> I have to agree with you on the GPL thing a bit. It makes me laugh everytime > someone says something like "It's a perfect simulation of racing Gran Prix cars were > that hard to drive There is numbers of reports. It's like racing a racing bicycle or a mountain bike. Both are different, but they are the same on the other side. There is indeed people who drove cars close to this. Some old vintage Formula 3. Others old road cars. Or some Formula Atlantic from that period. There is numbers of accurate reports from those F1 drivers in that era about the handling of those cars. Sir Jack Brabham participated I think also in the development of GPL. Some of us do race in real life also. We know how a car acts on a road course. We know that GPL is presently the summum of racing realism, and a major step. - I saw someone post the other day that they drove GPL for 2 But we aren't Formula 1 drivers. Do you really think that those person were just there for fun ? No they were the best racing drivers in the world. It's a whole different issue than us, normal people, with "some" racing talents (some more than others). -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I disagree - I think that as much as some people play GPL, with as many hours as they put into it, they should be able to race at least on par with the mediocre drivers of that era. (not in real life, mind you, but in the sim) For some of the best out there to only be able to go 2 hours without wrecking is ludicrous. The best drivers in 1967, and even the mediocre ones surely were better than that. The fact that many who play GPL also race in real life merely proves my point - these people should be able to be better at it than they are. I believe the reason they are not is that GPL does not take care of the issues involved between real life racing and computer simulated racing. I believe that it simulates a 1967 Grand Prix car as accuratly as modern technology allows for, but it leaves it at that. If I can't feel the G-forces and the vibration of the vehicle (and no, even the best Force Feedback doesn't cut it), than I'm obviously handicapped. Most sims take this into account, and "translate" accordingly. I think it's cool that GPL does what it does, but for me, due to these issues, it will never be as realistic as other games which deal better with them.

I agree that GPL is probably a little more difficult to drive than the real cars (I have driven a very soft suspended Ralt RT-1 with a modified 2Litre, Vintage FF with street tires and crewed for Vintage F1 cars.) However I think that GPL simulated the cars handling very well, but you dont have the car feel (G forces) that is very critical for controlling such a beast. With a LOT of practice, you can overcome some of the no g forces feel of driving a sim and maybe anticipate what the car is going to do through sound or visual. (I think if a FF wheel was done well for GPL then it would make it easier to "feel" the car) A lot of the control feel or reaction of the car to controller input can be different for different users depending on the type of steering controller,how sensitive it is set (linear) along with the amount of total lock to lock rotating degrees and the pedal travel and how sensitive they are. Still I think GPL is the most realistic driving physics of all the PC sims. SCGT with some of the hacks is not nearly as realistic as GPL , but its realistic enough to feel like your driving and its more forgiving to controller inputs so you can stay in control easier making it a lot more controllable than GPL. SCGT is the closest thing to driving my race car that has slicks,wings,and light weight ( Viper is good but the car feels very heavy, like a heavy street car, but thats what it is.) Lutrell :-) DSR # 74 http://insideracingtechnology.com/dsr1.htm >I disagree - I think that as much as some people play GPL, with as many hours >as they put into it, they should be able to race at least on par with the >mediocre drivers of that era. (not in real life, mind you, but in the sim) For >some of the best out there to only be able to go 2 hours without wrecking is >ludicrous.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can run mid-pack laptimes (vs the AI) 'till I fall asleep! But to run out front, the margin for error is much smaller, and the concentration required greater. Nobody can do that for very long, either in a sim or in real life. Laptimes in endurance races are slower than in sprint races, just as they're slower in racing than in qualifying. Jim Clark himself couldn't run laps at qualifying pace for 2hrs+. Besides the obvious setup differences, there HAS to be greater margin for error. The fact that sim racers tend to push their limits constantly, unhindered by fear of injury or death, is a big factor in crash frequency. The better alternative being...........? The lack of feedback is indeed what makes GPL so difficult at first, as admitted in the game manual. However, once you learn to read the aural and visual cues sufficiently, it becomes second-nature to toss the car around. As for other sims "translating" the lack of feedback, I'm not sure how to interpret that, except for letting the driver make inputs that would result in grief, without having that result. That doesn't seem very sim-like to me, and is exactly what other sims get slammed for. Heaven forbid they dilute N3 like that! I would however, repeat the mantra that you HAVE to be getting 36 FPS to really "feel" the cars in GPL. Papy has already taken plenty of flack for the game's CPU requirements, so I won't add to that, but if you're not getting max FPS and are having trouble "getting" GPL, there's your answer. The difference between 30FPS and 36FPS is NOTsubtle! But there are obviously different views on GPL, so it's good that the market's giving us all some other good options. As they say, "you pays yer money; you gets yer choice!" Steve B. (Lotus Junkie) Remove "edy" from address for email

>...and the fact that they had a seat-of-the-pants feel that >provided the necessary physical sensations needed to drive the car. I think this is the crux of the matter. As you say GPL has made some headway in this area (via***pit motion and so on) but then again, because the simulation is more advanced this headway doesn't go nearly far enough IMO. In other words, the more realistic the physics model, the more alternate-feedback is required to make up for the lack of seat-of-the-pants feel. The end result may be great to diehard simmers. But personally, although I've put more time into GPL than many other games, I'm close to giving up on it. I just don't have the patience or time for the ump*** number of hotlapping hours required to acquire even remotely competitive skills. Joe

To some extent, yes. But you must also learn to read what the car is doing. Don't hotlap. Practice shouldn't be hotlapping anyways. You should be concentrating on learning the track, experimenting with different lines and learning each corner and what the corner needs. You will never get faster unless you learn the tracks.

>I think everyone needs to decide how to order their priorities: >driving, racing, or winning. What I've found to be fun in GPL is multiplay racing ... but I'm so slow I usually end up racing alone. I'm giving it one last go with the F3 cars, hopefully that will keep me in the pack. There aren't that many people racing it. I need to either get better, or I'm racing by myself. Joe

Go to www.simracingnews.com and check out Tom Pabst's excellent guide for GPL newbies on how to get the most out of practice time to learn both the tracks and the cars.

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> >I think everyone needs to decide how to order their priorities: > >driving, racing, or winning. > What I've found to be fun in GPL is multiplay racing ... but I'm so > slow I usually end up racing alone. I'm giving it one last go with the > F3 cars, hopefully that will keep me in the pack. > >If it's racing, then you only need find > >opponents who match your skill level. > There aren't that many people racing it. I need to either get better, > or I'm racing by myself. > Joe

>Go to www.simracingnews.com and check out Tom Pabst's excellent guide for >GPL newbies on how to get the most out of practice time to learn both the >tracks and the cars. Thanks! Joe

Having only played the demo's of each game I'm not much to say which game is absolutely better. I can say each game has its ups and downs (as do most). The one reason I'll lean toward SCGT (and T-A Racing 68-72 when it's released) is the selection of cars. I think it's cool to pick from different types and body styles of cars rather than racing strictly Vipers. The exhaust flames in SCGT surprised me as well as the heating brake rotors in Viper Racing. I see *** companies are paying more attention to physics and how race cars behave. I also like the fact that in Viper Racing you can stay inside the car as it tumbles on a 3D axis. T-A Racing 68-72 is also supposedly going to have that as a feature, as well as a "head-bob" type deal. If you accelerate, your view from inside the car will tilt upward slightly, go around a corner, your view will shift toward the inside of the turn because your body weight is transfering to the outside of the track. Run over a few bumps with the hard Trans-Am racing suspension in a '70 Boss Mustang and your head will "vibrate" or shake in general. I am still "steering-wheel/pedal-less" however. Could someone suggest me a good quality inexpensive model or build one with a "real" custom steering wheel attached for my driving pleasure? You may post to the NG added as I don't visit here that often. Thank you. Musclecar fan, Geoff

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>The end result may be great to diehard simmers. But personally, >although I've put more time into GPL than many other games, I'm close >to giving up on it. I just don't have the patience or time for the >ump*** number of hotlapping hours required to acquire even remotely >competitive skills. >Joe

Ashamedly that's my point with NR99. I had to scale WAY back on an offline league I was running with because it was getting too frustrating for me to try to run on tracks where my qualifying run was ALSO my practice run! 'Course that's with force AI levels; doesn't GPL have varying AI skill levels? If so, can't they be scaled back while you learn as in NRx? "Gunner" ORSA Bronze #78 Navy Dodge truck