Career mode in sims (long)

I know a lot of people (and companies) think that network, Internet, and head-to-head racing is the wave of the future for racing sims, but I really feel like the single-player career mode has a ton of untapped potential. Viper Racing has the best career mode I've seen yet in a sim, but I think that game companies could do even better if they would quit thinking of racing sims as simple "driving games." In the area of a single player career mode, even GPL is no better than an arcade game. That's a strong statement, I know (I may be the first person EVER to put GPL into the same category as an arcade game, but read on). Back when I was really into historic flight sims, I really enjoyed the original Red Barron game by Dynamix, mainly because of the fact that Red Barron's career mode was really exceptional. You could start at various time periods in the war, which meant that you could start your "career" in various different machines, at different points in the war's various campaigns. As you scored more "kills," you were given promotions in rank, choose a different airplane, or you might be offered the opportunity to changing squadrons to fly alongside some of history's greatest aces. One aspect of Red Barron's career mode that really made me think twice about my decisions to engage the enemy was the fact that if you took on too much damage or crashed your plane, your career could be terminated by death or you could be sidelined for a period of (simulated) time while you recuperated. For example, if you flew into battle in August of a particular year and were shot down, your might be sidelined until you were fully recuperated in April of the following spring. This might mean that you would miss out on historic battles, and you would definitely miss out on more opportunities to score "kills" and further your career. If you found yourself injured late in the war, the war might actually come to an end while you were recuperating, leaving you with fewer kills, fewer medals, and less rank than if you had flown more cautiously to avoid being sidelined by injuries. What does this have to do with career mode in a race sim? Apply the opportunity to be sidelined by injury or to have your career terminated by death to a sim like GPL, NASCAR, ICR2, or Viper Racing, and consider how it would affect your aggressiveness. It's one thing to crash out of a race and end up with no points due to a DNF -- and that may affect your aggressiveness to some degree -- but it would have an even greater effect if you had to also deal with the possibility of being sidelined for one or more races because of potential injuries sustained during an accident. The issue of bringing "simulated death" into a sporting simulation may be too unsavory to consider, regarless of whether or not it would add an additional level of realism, but injury is something that could definitely be included without bringing too somber of a tone to bear. There are other aspects that could be included, too -- you could also be given the opportunity to act as just a driver, or as an owner/driver, which would mean that you would also be responsible for paying for any damages incurred, too. As a driver, you would start out with no cash and work your way up through winning prize money. As an owner/driver, you would start out with a given sum of money which you would have to use to pay entry fees, then you could increase you wealth by gaining prize money or by attracting sponsors with your driving and your "team's" on-track performance. As an owner/driver, you would also have to pay for repairs, and you might also be given the opportunity to run a second car and hire a second driver if you had enough earnings to sustain a two-car operation (with you driving in each race as an owner/driver, alongside an AI teammate). As I said, there are vast, untapped possibilities here -- many people have tried *some* aspects of what I've visualized here, but nobody has really done it right, or taken it to a really enjoyable level. On-line racing MAY be one way to have a great time with a race sim, but I've never raced on-line yet, and I'm having a TON of fun working through the career mode in Viper Racing, and I don't think I'm the only one in this situation -- so that means there's still an untapped market out there beyond and in addition to the avenue offered by on-line racing. Anybody agree/disagree/want to shoot me for making such a pointless post? <G> -- John Bodin Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

WURD! :-)

I do agree that a comprehensive career mode would be great for sims and I like a lot of your ideas. Very interesting stuff. Multiplayer is extremely important to me though. Once I started racing online exactly two years ago, it immediately became an ***ion. :-) I've had to force myself to cut back. For me, racing against the AI just doesn't compare to racing online. I've competed against a number of the best human drivers of a few different racing sims/games and it's a whole different experience than racing the computer. David G Fisher

I've long advocated a career mode in games with a dual setting for injuries on and off. I too played Red Baron (along with Aces of the Pacific etc) and enjoyed the feeling that I was actually progressing. Sadly whilst this wouldn't be too hard to simulate, the sim makers seem to think we can do without this. I mean, if I want racing career progression I can start at the back of the field and move myself forward as I deem realistic but that's not what I want to do. I'd like to have to prove myself to get a deal. Whilst I'm on the subject, it'd also be nice for the AI to be affected by pressure during championships. I'd like to see drivers fighting for the title acting as they do in real life (taking more risks or backing off if they're ahead in the points). This is all part of racing and I've never watched a single race where a driver near the end of the season isn't racing for championship positions. M

I think this happens to some degree in Viper Racing -- I'm seeing the AI leader cars do more stupid things at the GT career mode level than they did at lower levels. Could just be "normal" AI stupidity, though. <G> -- JB

Well, I sorta thought that GPL did include a "career" mode known as World Championship. Besides, are we becoming so jaded that we can't use our own imagination and creativity anymore. Do we have to be spoonfed/forced to "play" by set rules and guidelines dictated by a computer program? Use your imagination, build your own career mode..... Start out in one of the lesser cars and don't allow yourself to race in one of the top marques until you have earned your wings. Hey, if you mess up in a World Championship race and wreck real bad, skip the next event or two until you feel you have healed. Or worse, you've killed yourself so put the game away until you have been re-incarnated. Make up your own rules, I think there are many possibilities already included in GPL if you use the many that are stored in your imagination. Let them loose! -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Imagination!??! Come on Mike... ouch, my brain hurts just thinking about it! ;-) --Dave

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> Well, I sorta thought that GPL did include a "career" mode known as > World Championship. > Besides, are we becoming so jaded that we can't use our own imagination > and creativity anymore. Do we have to be spoonfed/forced to "play" by > set rules and guidelines dictated by a computer program? > Use your imagination, build your own career mode..... Start out in one > of the lesser cars and don't allow yourself to race in one of the top > marques until you have earned your wings. Hey, if you mess up in a > World Championship race and wreck real bad, skip the next event or two > until you feel you have healed. Or worse, you've killed yourself so put > the game away until you have been re-incarnated. > Make up your own rules, I think there are many possibilities already > included in GPL if you use the many that are stored in your imagination. > Let them loose! > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

: Well, I sorta thought that GPL did include a "career" mode known as : World Championship. : Besides, are we becoming so jaded that we can't use our own imagination : and creativity anymore. Do we have to be spoonfed/forced to "play" by : set rules and guidelines dictated by a computer program? Um... well in a simulation we do - otherwise you might as well be sitting in a carboard box going "brum brum, I'm the fastest" - why be fettered by all that tedious physics modelling. (Actually, if you were really talented you could imagine the cardboard box). : Make up your own rules, I think there are many possibilities already : included in GPL if you use the many that are stored in your imagination. : Let them loose! Um... yerssss.... but it would have been nice if the programmers had let some of the possibilities stored in their imaginations loose too. So many of todays sims, and especially GPL, are very much based around the concept of "doing what everyone else does only more so". It would be nice to see a driving sim that added something else - like the career mode in GT or the support car racing in TOCA 2. There's only so many times I can get e***d about another ground-breaking physics model. (I spend the rest of my life doing computer models so perhaps I'm just jaded). -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

> Whilst I'm on the subject, it'd also be nice for the AI to be affected by > pressure during championships. I'd like to see drivers fighting for the > title acting as they do in real life (taking more risks or backing off if > they're ahead in the points). This is all part of racing and I've never > watched a single race where a driver near the end of the season isn't > racing for championship positions. It would also be nice for the AI to include team tactics - letting the number one driver (or driver with the highest point total on the team) pass, making it *** a rival team's contender, being less aggressive when behind a teammate, etc. Dave Ewing

>Anybody agree/disagree/want to shoot me for making such a pointless >post? <G> I think it's a good idea, and have thought the same way for quite a long time now. Other sports games have injuries, why not racing? Though perhaps instead of death, they could have career ending injuries. It's basically the same end result, as far as driving is concerned. --- Jet Jaguar I have a spam blocking address. Replying to me is like pulling teeth. Visit my crappy home page at http://home.att.net/~chmilnir/ MSTie #54297 Hey baby, wanna kill all the humans?

There was a motocross game quite a few years back for the PC that did the injuries thing. It was pretty cool for its time, and if I remember correct, you could be sidelined for almost the entire season if you weren't careful. Just wish I could remember what it was called.

This is slightly off the topic, but.... I am having lot of fun running my own World Championship (only novice though :-). After completing it once (3rd place behind Hill & Clark) I find I am improving my times on all the tracks. It gave me a bit more incentive to learn each track more (still more learning to be done) and finish all the races. I actually finished 5th at Monaco in my second WC attempt and have done a race at Nurburgring which I had never raced on - this round I will score points there! Completing the World Championship in Pro Long would be quite a feat! Has anyone done the full Grand Prix World Championship?

Funnily enough I buy games in order to let someone else do the imagination for me. Generally when I have designed games (I worked in the industry until recently) I tried to use my imagination and add features that were new rather than just copy what everyone else was doing. Why not go the whole hog and smash your legs with a hammer too? Anyway, what about those sims that don't allow you to skip races without ending the championship? Personally I'd much prefer to say "hmm... I'd like a game with career options" and wander down to the store and pick one up rather than having to play "lets pretend" of an evening. Anyway, I'd rather have someone else decide if I'm good enough to race for a team rather than do it myself, after all, aren't we looking for realism? M

On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:43:53 +1000, "Ian Robertson" >Completing the World Championship in Pro Long would be quite a feat! Has >anyone done the full Grand Prix World Championship? Yes.... :-) It doesn't take that long actually, vroom, crash, ouch, next event... Cheers! John

Totally agree. I would love to have a bike sim where you start in the local catagories, such as 250 Prodies or 600 Supersport, and have to do well before getting an oppotunity to race in the premier class, such as the local Superbike championship. Perhaps even have the chance to race the inferior local Superbike against the World Superbikes at least once a season. The quality of your bikes would be in proportion to your race results and how much facory backing and sponsorship you attracted. Injuries would definately be a factor. Real costs, such as what front forks or brakes you can afford, would be choices you have to make wisely. For a game like this to work you would need to lock the saved games so you can't just cancel a bad race weekend and try it again. The risks you take should be measured against the real gain or loss involved. The technology is available to write such a game.

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> I know a lot of people (and companies) think that network, Internet, > and head-to-head racing is the wave of the future for racing sims, but > I really feel like the single-player career mode has a ton of untapped > potential. Viper Racing has the best career mode I've seen yet in a > sim, but I think that game companies could do even better if they > would quit thinking of racing sims as simple "driving games." In the > area of a single player career mode, even GPL is no better than an > arcade game. That's a strong statement, I know (I may be the first > person EVER to put GPL into the same category as an arcade game, but > read on). > Back when I was really into historic flight sims, I really enjoyed the > original Red Barron game by Dynamix, mainly because of the fact that > Red Barron's career mode was really exceptional. You could start at > various time periods in the war, which meant that you could start your > "career" in various different machines, at different points in the > war's various campaigns. As you scored more "kills," you were given > promotions in rank, choose a different airplane, or you might be > offered the opportunity to changing squadrons to fly alongside some of > history's greatest aces. > One aspect of Red Barron's career mode that really made me think twice > about my decisions to engage the enemy was the fact that if you took > on too much damage or crashed your plane, your career could be > terminated by death or you could be sidelined for a period of > (simulated) time while you recuperated. For example, if you flew into > battle in August of a particular year and were shot down, your might > be sidelined until you were fully recuperated in April of the > following spring. > This might mean that you would miss out on historic battles, and you > would definitely miss out on more opportunities to score "kills" and > further your career. If you found yourself injured late in the war, > the war might actually come to an end while you were recuperating, > leaving you with fewer kills, fewer medals, and less rank than if you > had flown more cautiously to avoid being sidelined by injuries. > What does this have to do with career mode in a race sim? Apply the > opportunity to be sidelined by injury or to have your career > terminated by death to a sim like GPL, NASCAR, ICR2, or Viper Racing, > and consider how it would affect your aggressiveness. It's one thing > to crash out of a race and end up with no points due to a DNF -- and > that may affect your aggressiveness to some degree -- but it would > have an even greater effect if you had to also deal with the > possibility of being sidelined for one or more races because of > potential injuries sustained during an accident. The issue of > bringing "simulated death" into a sporting simulation may be too > unsavory to consider, regarless of whether or not it would add an > additional level of realism, but injury is something that could > definitely be included without bringing too somber of a tone to bear. > There are other aspects that could be included, too -- you could also > be given the opportunity to act as just a driver, or as an > owner/driver, which would mean that you would also be responsible for > paying for any damages incurred, too. As a driver, you would start > out with no cash and work your way up through winning prize money. As > an owner/driver, you would start out with a given sum of money which > you would have to use to pay entry fees, then you could increase you > wealth by gaining prize money or by attracting sponsors with your > driving and your "team's" on-track performance. As an owner/driver, > you would also have to pay for repairs, and you might also be given > the opportunity to run a second car and hire a second driver if you > had enough earnings to sustain a two-car operation (with you driving > in each race as an owner/driver, alongside an AI teammate). > As I said, there are vast, untapped possibilities here -- many people > have tried *some* aspects of what I've visualized here, but nobody has > really done it right, or taken it to a really enjoyable level. > On-line racing MAY be one way to have a great time with a race sim, > but I've never raced on-line yet, and I'm having a TON of fun working > through the career mode in Viper Racing, and I don't think I'm the > only one in this situation -- so that means there's still an untapped > market out there beyond and in addition to the avenue offered by > on-line racing. > Anybody agree/disagree/want to shoot me for making such a pointless > post? <G> > -- John Bodin > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

>I know a lot of people (and companies) think that network, Internet, >and head-to-head racing is the wave of the future for racing sims, but >I really feel like the single-player career mode has a ton of untapped >potential. even GPL is no better than an John, While I found your post interesting,I don't think that you're heading in the right direction for most racers. Just about everyone I race against,meet,or chat with on the net,runs gpl as a series of single races. I really can't recall anyone making an issue out of winning the formula 1 championship. Most haven't even learned all the tracks yet. As for working in lost time for accidents,I don't think that would go over well,as most of us crash out regularly. And a prize fund both for owner and or driver isn't the prime goal of F1 in 1967. Joel Willstein

On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:53:12 GMT,

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>>Anybody agree/disagree/want to shoot me for making such a pointless >>post? <G> >I think it's a good idea, and have thought the same way for quite a >long time now. Other sports games have injuries, why not racing? >Though perhaps instead of death, they could have career ending >injuries. It's basically the same end result, as far as driving is >concerned.

Or the game-world could decide that you wreck so many cars that no one will give you a drive. -- SJKH, Ipswich, UK

ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!! You've seen me Drive : )

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>On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:43:53 +1000, "Ian Robertson" >>Completing the World Championship in Pro Long would be quite a feat! Has >>anyone done the full Grand Prix World Championship? >Yes.... :-) >It doesn't take that long actually, vroom, crash, ouch, next event... >Cheers! >John

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>On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:53:12 GMT, >>>Anybody agree/disagree/want to shoot me for making such a pointless >>>post? <G> >>I think it's a good idea, and have thought the same way for quite a >>long time now. Other sports games have injuries, why not racing? >>Though perhaps instead of death, they could have career ending >>injuries. It's basically the same end result, as far as driving is >>concerned. >Or the game-world could decide that you wreck so many cars that no one >will give you a drive.

Yeah, if you're a dangerous driver, you'll lose your ride with a top team because you tear up too much equipment. Then a second-tier team will pick you up but since you haven't learned your lesson, the officials ban you from some races for more dangerous driving but you just whine about how the officiating isn't fair instead of cleaning up your act. But I'm just talking crazy now, because such a thing would never happen in real life... --- Jet Jaguar I have a spam blocking address. Replying to me is like pulling teeth. Visit my crappy home page at http://home.att.net/~chmilnir/ MSTie #54297 Hey baby, wanna kill all the humans?