GPL : flat spotting

Hi Flat spotting is when you brake hard and the tyres lock up creating a big black stretch of black marks on the road. This black mark is a result of the tyres wearing itself on the road. In F1, flat spotting will create uneven wheel which inturn will create other problems. I wonder if GPL has this feature built in. Right now I am using a lot of heavy braking coming into corners and could see alot of marks on the tracks. Interestingly I see a few replays of other players which DON'T have this heavy braking. I wonder if there is any drawback to this technique ( of heavy braking just before the corner ) -- regards =========================================== Singapore

The drawback to braking with the tires locked is that braking distance is increased. A rotating tire provides greater braking force than a locked tire. If you watch the replays of the top GPL drivers, you'll notice that they seldom, if ever, lock their tires, and never do so by design. I don't believe that GPL models flat-spotted tires. Jack Rambo

Quoted text (7 lines)

> The drawback to braking with the tires locked is that braking distance is > increased. A rotating tire provides greater braking force than a locked > tire. If you watch the replays of the top GPL drivers, you'll notice that > they seldom, if ever, lock their tires, and never do so by design. I don't > believe that GPL models flat-spotted tires. > Jack Rambo

Also, those tires were so hard, flat spotting was not the problem it is today.. Matt -- Matthew Knutsen "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

And thanks to the Tyre war that happened in F1 during the last years, flat spotting is about non-existent and doesn't really change anymore the handling of the car compared to some years ago (where locking the tyres meant changing them). But I agree those old tyres were soo hard and tick, it wasn't a problem. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Besides, locking them up makes it really unstable.... -- Kirk Lane ICQ: 28171652 >The drawback to braking with the tires locked is that braking distance is >increased. A rotating tire provides greater braking force than a locked >tire. If you watch the replays of the top GPL drivers, you'll notice that >they seldom, if ever, lock their tires, and never do so by design. I don't >believe that GPL models flat-spotted tires. >Jack Rambo

I believe a 'little' more to the point: "flat spotting" is just that! When you brake too hard the wheel locks, the tyres slide on one spot & burns the *** right off that spot! Then you have a "flat spot". No more No Less.. Unless they've got a new tyre out there I am un-aware of?? IMHO.. ;0) Cheers Thom j. aka ^Fretts

Quoted text (26 lines)

> Hi > Flat spotting is when you brake hard and the tyres lock up > creating a big black stretch of black marks on the road. > This black mark is a result of the tyres wearing itself on > the road. > In F1, flat spotting will create uneven wheel which inturn > will create other problems. > I wonder if GPL has this feature built in. > Right now I am using a lot of heavy braking coming into > corners and could see alot of marks on the tracks. > Interestingly I see a few replays of other players which > DON'T > have this heavy braking. > I wonder if there is any drawback to this technique ( of > heavy braking just before > the corner ) > -- > regards > =========================================== > Singapore

n2rif1.vcf < 1K Download

Definitely disagree with that, flat-spotting was and remains a BAD thing to do. Quite apart from the sudden and massive wear to that section, a tire which is flat spotted becomes is more likely to lock in future as the flat spot doesn't "roll" as easily. That means you either apply less braking force or you will again lock up the same spot, worsening your problem. These days tires are somewhat more durable than they used to be, but a flat-spot is still the start of a downward spiral for any race tire. Cheers! John

I see your point and I agree. I never said it was good.. Probably should had said that it's much less worse that it was before, even if it's still not the best way to brake... That's what I wanted to say :) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

It also sets up a *** vibration thru the steering wheel due to the tires not being round anymore. that may often be worse the the loss of braking. Dave

GPL doesn't model tire wear at all, so I think it makes no difference, except that you're losing a lot of braking force by locking up rather than threshold braking. Donald McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

>And thanks to the Tyre war that happened in F1 during the last years, flat >spotting is about non-existent and doesn't really change anymore the >handling of the car compared to some years ago (where locking the tyres >meant changing them). But I agree those old tyres were soo hard and tick, >it wasn't a problem. A tire war would tend to make the tires softer and more fragile, increasing the problem. One tire manufacturer would make tires more durable and less prone to flat-spotting, therefore safer due to the absent need to "show up the competition". Donald McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

ok here's a question. how do you tell if you are above threshold ? by the smokes ? more imptly how to tell if you are near threshold ? The key I think is to brake and let go just BEFORE threshold. But I am constantly going over board with it,, tried "pumping" action ( brake -release-brake ) but that created more unstability at the steering ( my hand unsteady )

Quoted text (7 lines)

| | >I wonder if GPL has this feature built in. | >Right now I am using a lot of heavy braking coming into | >corners and could see alot of marks on the tracks. | > | | GPL doesn't model tire wear at all, so I think it makes

no difference, except | that you're losing a lot of braking force by locking up rather than threshold | braking. | | | Donald McCorkle | Libertarian Motorsports |

do you think Nascar3 will include flat spotting ? McKafre De La Rosa ymenard escribi en mensaje ...

Quoted text (18 lines)

>> Also, those tires were so hard, flat spotting was not the problem it is >> today.. >And thanks to the Tyre war that happened in F1 during the last years, flat >spotting is about non-existent and doesn't really change anymore the >handling of the car compared to some years ago (where locking the tyres >meant changing them). But I agree those old tyres were soo hard and tick, >it wasn't a problem. >-- >-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> >-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ >-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ >-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. >-- May the Downforce be with you... >"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Your right tire wear is not modeled in GPL but tire temp is so you will increase your tire temp on the tire that locks resulting in a slight loss of grip if the temp is to high. As for the threshold of braking you can tell by the sound the tire makes under braking. Rick Prydden.

Quoted text (15 lines)

>> Definitely disagree with that, flat-spotting was and remains a BAD >> thing to do. Quite apart from the sudden and massive wear to that >> section, a tire which is flat spotted becomes is more likely to lock >> in future as the flat spot doesn't "roll" as easily. That means you >> either apply less braking force or you will again lock up the same >> spot, worsening your problem. >I see your point and I agree. I never said it was good.. Probably should >had said that it's much less worse that it was before, even if it's still >not the best way to brake... >> These days tires are somewhat more durable than they used to be, but a >> flat-spot is still the start of a downward spiral for any race tire. >That's what I wanted to say :)

Did you guys see de Ferran's 360 at the start of the Motegi race last Saturday? One would think that he flat spotted his tires for good, but still managed to do very competetive lap times after the restart. I realise that at least the rear tires were spinning under power for the entire spin thus minimizing flat spotting but still ... Anyway, I thought it was pretty amazing that he could continue with that set of tires AND lead the race for awhile ... Hena

There's a difference between flat spotting and spinning the tyres. Flat spotting occurs while braking because the brakes are locked. I don't remember de Ferrans 360 that well but I recollect it was because he applied too much throttle and the rear wheels started spinning.

In 1967 they had much harder tyre compounds, and could actually use the same set for the *whole* weekend. flatspotting was a lot harder to achieve in those days due to the hardness of the tyres? and continual hard braking did not present so much of a problem, although most top drivers try not to lock the wheels anyway? Nowadays, however, flat spotting is very easily achieved, as the tyres do not last as long and are very soft, (comparibly) and should be avoided as it can affect performance considerably? (manifesting itself as longer braking distances, lower laptimes, loss of control and a very uncomfortable ride for the driver!) Heavy braking (eg: the tyres are locked up) is not the ideal technique to use. (Although I am unable to stop myself doing it, as any replays of my laps will testify. FX: mental note - I must get around to practising correct braking more one day!) If you have locked the brakes, you have lost control of the car (to a degree?) and are not slowing as fast as is possible. (A rotating tyre gives more grip, don't ask me how, it just *DOES*) The ideal method is to brake enough so that you are braking as fast as possible, but without locking the wheels. That way you remain in control at all times and shorten the braking distance required. Some drivers use cadence braking as a method of reducing tyre/wheel lock-ups. You brake as hard as possible, but quickly release the brakes and re-apply the brakes several times. This releasing and re-applying of the brakes stops the wheels from locking up, and is actually the basis of many modern anti-lock braking systems. As always, practice makes perfect, and I certainly *haven't* perfected the technique yet...... 8-) *Peter* #:-)

although i did not see the event hena is talking about, i think they mean the car spun, but the driver stayed on the gas. the fronts would have had some flat spots.

Exactly! I know the difference between spinning the tire and locking it under braking. But when a car travels sideways one could assume there would be flat spots, at least on the fronts. -- Best regards, Hena H?kk?nen Remove NOSPAM to email me! > > >Did you guys see de Ferran's 360 at the start of the Motegi race last > > >Saturday? One would think that he flat spotted his tires for good, but > still > > >managed to do very competetive lap times after the restart. I realise > that > > >at least the rear tires were spinning under power for the entire spin > thus > > >minimizing flat spotting but still ... Anyway, I thought it was pretty > > There's a difference between flat spotting and spinning the tyres. > > Flat spotting occurs while braking because the brakes are locked. I > > don't remember de Ferrans 360 that well but I recollect it was because > > he applied too much throttle and the rear wheels started spinning.

>Did you guys see de Ferran's 360 at the start of the Motegi race last >Saturday? More precisely, two 270's. Much more impressive when he recovered from that. Even Danny Sullivan can 360 :) Trey Behan

> Your right tire wear is not modeled in GPL ... You mean left tire wear is modelled ??? ;-) Dave Ewing

less than braking cause of weight transfer ... McKafre De La Rosa

Quoted text (26 lines)

>Exactly! I know the difference between spinning the tire and locking it >under braking. But when a car travels sideways one could assume there would >be flat spots, at least on the fronts. >-- >Best regards, >Hena H?kk?nen >Remove NOSPAM to email me! >> > >Did you guys see de Ferran's 360 at the start of the Motegi race last >> > >Saturday? One would think that he flat spotted his tires for good, but >> still >> > >managed to do very competetive lap times after the restart. I realise >> that >> > >at least the rear tires were spinning under power for the entire spin >> thus >> > >minimizing flat spotting but still ... Anyway, I thought it was pretty >> > There's a difference between flat spotting and spinning the tyres. >> > Flat spotting occurs while braking because the brakes are locked. I >> > don't remember de Ferrans 360 that well but I recollect it was because >> > he applied too much throttle and the rear wheels started spinning.

Quoted text (10 lines)

>On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:29:51 +0200, >>less than braking cause of weight transfer ... >>McKafre De La Rosa >Not to mention the fact that in a slide, the wheels are still >turning, where in a braking situation, they aren't... :)

of course, but only if you are not braking :) McKafre De La Rosa

> >Did you guys see de Ferran's 360 at the start of the Motegi race last > >Saturday? > More precisely, two 270's. Much more impressive when he recovered from that. > Even Danny Sullivan can 360 :) You mean two 180's? Two 270's would put him going backwards :) -- Best regards, Hena H?kk?nen Remove NOSPAM to email me!

Hey guys, stop arguing about these spins.... You're making me dizzy! :-) --Dave

Quoted text (23 lines)

> On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:14:00 +0300, > >> >Did you guys see de Ferran's 360 at the start of the Motegi race last > >> >Saturday? > >> More precisely, two 270's. Much more impressive when he recovered from > >that. > >> Even Danny Sullivan can 360 :) > >You mean two 180's? Two 270's would put him going backwards :) > Not if one 270 degree turn was in one direction and > one 270 degree turn was in the opposite direction. > -- > // rrevved posts from mindspring dot com

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

On 12 Apr 1999 22:34:26 GMT, "DAVID " >It also sets up a *** vibration thru the steering wheel due to the tires >not being round anymore. that may often be worse the the loss of braking. Crap, you're right, that's the other important thing about flat-spotting I didn't mention. Very often you hear of F1 and CART guys having to come in for a pitstop because the vibration was so bad they could no longer see or were worried that something would break on the car! Cheers! John