Some thoughts on VROC-Racing....

Hi all! Last night I joined a GP-Race in Spa hosted by Rick Sweeney and there were NO incidents on the start with 20 drivers.....incredible......why can't people discipline themselves and try to equalize this "world-record"? Instead, mostly ppl try to get from last to first in half a lap......complete nonsense, just causes pileups and frustration ;-((. To cool ppl down, I myself only host *Pro*-Races so if you hit something,.....bye....there should be a lot more of that...... Next thing is we wanna have fun while racing, right? My driving-policy is, when in the lead and see no1 behind me, I wait (drive slowly in *safe* places, don't stop, you get kicked if idle too long) for others to catch up and race them again....who cares if I win a race (except championship-races of course).....Same applies, if you're in 6th, guy behind you spins and recovers, why not wait for him?.....I want competition, if I wanna hotlap I can do that alone offline...... Regarding last thought, maybe we all could agree on some fixed short-message-keys for the in-car-chat (I for myself can't type and drive at the same time, I know there are some of you out there who can *fallingonmykneesandworship*), for example "W"= I am waiting, "?"=How many drivers left in the race, "G"=gaps between drivers, "!"= watch out, I'm spinning and so on.....Answers should be given by ppl watching the race.....These keys then should be posted where everyone can see them while in VROC-Netscape as well as in Spy-Boy. Next issue is that ppl join races ignoring bad ping-showings in SpyBoy or VROC-Netscape, getting disco'd, trying again, blocking ppl with good con's from joining, causing warping, and later complaining, what a shitty host Mr.xyz is....;-((.....Guys'n'Gals, look at the pings *before* joining!! K, cake is being served, grandparents (of my kiddies!) arrived (bore..), maybe some more later...... Hope to see some nice clean racing soon! cya Markus

Some valid points Markus,but have you considered warping , I myself have been taken off a few times at start by someone warping into me.(Not fun if pro race) Maybe people should disconnect from a race if there lat is to high (say above 0.400)?

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> Hi all! > Last night I joined a GP-Race in Spa hosted by Rick Sweeney and there were > NO incidents on the start with 20 drivers.....incredible......why can't > people discipline themselves and try to equalize this "world-record"? > Instead, mostly ppl try to get from last to first in half a > lap......complete nonsense, just causes pileups and frustration ;-((. To > cool ppl down, I myself only host *Pro*-Races so if you hit > something,.....bye....there should be a lot more of that...... > Next thing is we wanna have fun while racing, right? My driving-policy is, > when in the lead and see no1 behind me, I wait (drive slowly in *safe* > places, don't stop, you get kicked if idle too long) for others to catch up > and race them again....who cares if I win a race (except championship-races > of course).....Same applies, if you're in 6th, guy behind you spins and > recovers, why not wait for him?.....I want competition, if I wanna hotlap I > can do that alone offline...... > Regarding last thought, maybe we all could agree on some fixed > short-message-keys for the in-car-chat (I for myself can't type and drive at > the same time, I know there are some of you out there who can > *fallingonmykneesandworship*), for example "W"= I am waiting, "?"=How many > drivers left in the race, "G"=gaps between drivers, "!"= watch out, I'm > spinning and so on.....Answers should be given by ppl watching the > race.....These keys then should be posted where everyone can see them while > in VROC-Netscape as well as in Spy-Boy. > Next issue is that ppl join races ignoring bad ping-showings in SpyBoy or > VROC-Netscape, getting disco'd, trying again, blocking ppl with good con's > from joining, causing warping, and later complaining, what a shitty host > Mr.xyz is....;-((.....Guys'n'Gals, look at the pings *before* joining!! > K, cake is being served, grandparents (of my kiddies!) arrived (bore..), > maybe some more later...... > Hope to see some nice clean racing soon! > cya > Markus

>Instead, mostly ppl try to get from last to first in half a >lap Speaking about world records....I joined a race at Spa hosted by Jack Rambo. I was on the first row, and Jack somewhere at the back of 12 cars. I don't know what happened, but right after the start Jack came over like a low flying rocket, with flames included! He came down at the bridge right before Eau Rouge. Must have been more then 300 meters. The Spy Boy chat (great utility BTW) after the race reveiled that the other drivers had trouble to concentrate for Eau Rouge, and indeed, most drivers almost crashed there. This was a startcrash I don't mind to see. Too bad I disco'd, I love to see that replay again. Remco

>Next issue is that ppl join races ignoring bad ping-showings in SpyBoy or >VROC-Netscape, getting disco'd, trying again, blocking ppl with good con's >from joining, causing warping, and later complaining, what a shitty host >Mr.xyz is....;-((.....Guys'n'Gals, look at the pings *before* joining!! Is below 400 acceptable? __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

The complaints you and have regarding racing on VROC, and the requests others have been making on r.a.s. recently regarding online racing etiquette have always been common in online racing for the past couple of years. Nothing is going to change unfortunately. Hate to sound so negative but I can go back two years ago and remember the same, exact, issues (long list). Doesn't matter which game, the age of the drivers, etc. The same, exact requests were made to correct them, and...........nothing changes. David G Fisher

"That's okay folks--it's the trying that counts." --_Road Kill Soup for the Soul_

Justice has to be done! Jack was 5th. At the moment of this typing I am punished by the need of crossing a container with broken glass on my bare knees. Ouch. Remco

I just went out of a Spa race too. It was a PRO race, so no shift-r allowed (I think that can be very bad in standard VROC races). I started last because I arrived at the end of the session, and at the start, I decided to go at about 2mph since nobody was behind me. I thought this would help me avoid any crashes. And then another car came flying like a NATO torpedo into my car and I was warped into a big crash, out of the race. Doh. -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 ________________________________________________________________________________ "I liked things better when I didn't understand them" (Calvin & Hobbes)

> Is below 400 acceptable? I'd say it's just about acceptable. There will be some warping with that kind of ping, no doubt. If ping is below 300, that's by all means fine and just about a no-warping connection. -- Ari Nieminen **************************************************** Remove .NOSPAM from my e-mail address when replying. ****************************************************

Thank you for that clarification, Remco! It was a pretty spectacular ride though! I discovered that with the wheels pared away the Lotus' clean aerodynamic lines support a nice stable trajectory in sub-orbital flight. I now pride myself in being the world record holder for assisted horizontal flight in a Lotus, with an amazing distance of 1232 feet (376 m). If you want to make a run at my record, remember that's flight distance only, run-up and post-flight taxiing are not included. I just knew there was *some* way for me to get in the record books! Jack Rambo

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>> Is below 400 acceptable? >I'd say it's just about acceptable. There will be some warping with that >kind of ping, no doubt. If ping is below 300, that's by all means fine >and just about a no-warping connection. >-- >Ari Nieminen

Few and far between, unfortunately. I'm afraid it's time for a new ISP... :( __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>A well organised league race is so much more satisfying than any number of >pick-ups IMO. >Cheers, >Richard How right you are, Richard, but where are they? Jack Rambo has quit due to severe family-damage, and there's not much left ;-(( Cya Markus

David G Fisher schrieb in Nachricht Hey David! That's the wrong attitude. If you stick your head in the sand, of course you won't change anything. The point is to mention it over and over and over again until people can't hear it anymore. As daily hundreds or whatever ppl join the Internet, join GPL-Online-Races, you gotta tell them, too, so: Repeat the same boring theme again until the last day of life of the game....... Maybe we should get a chan-bot to do this work for us........ cya and don't give up! Markus

Hi Graeme! I believe things like that wouldn't occur if people would read my last thought...... cya Markus

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>Hi all! >Last night I joined a GP-Race in Spa hosted by Rick Sweeney and there were >NO incidents on the start with 20 drivers.....incredible......why can't >people discipline themselves and try to equalize this "world-record"? >Instead, mostly ppl try to get from last to first in half a >lap......complete nonsense, just causes pileups and frustration ;-((. To >cool ppl down, I myself only host *Pro*-Races so if you hit >something,.....bye....there should be a lot more of that...... >Regarding last thought, maybe we all could agree on some fixed >short-message-keys for the in-car-chat (I for myself can't type and drive

at

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>the same time, I know there are some of you out there who can >*fallingonmykneesandworship*), for example "W"= I am waiting, "?"=How many >drivers left in the race, "G"=gaps between drivers, "!"= watch out, I'm >spinning and so on.....Answers should be given by ppl watching the >race.....These keys then should be posted where everyone can see them while >in VROC-Netscape as well as in Spy-Boy. >Markus

Markus, Nice post. Without question,the number 1 complaint besides disconnects,is accidents that ruin your race at the start. What is the sense of qualifying for 15-30 and getting a a decent starting position,only to be knocked out before the the 1st turn,then rejoining at the rear of the field. How many times has someone said take it easy on the start,stay inline,etc,and everyone agrees. Then crash city. Sure,warps,popping, contribute to it,but more often then not,it's just bad driving. Brake early on the 1st lap. Cold tires,and more importantly,not everyone brakes at the same point. I've had races where after the flag more than half of the cars infront of me just vanish. I try to maintain my line until they reappear. Most of the time it works,unfortunately,some of the time,it doesn't. And your idea for single letters for short chat is great. Especially since there is so little information you can get from your pit board,and it's a full lap behind. Joel Willstein

You're right I suppose, but I'm not too optimistic about things getting better. My main complaints haven't changed since I started racing online. 1. Hosts who take way too long to start the damn race. 2. People who quit once they feel they've fallen back too far. 3. Drivers who try to win a race on the first lap. 4. Chat. I know most people are trying to be friendly, but too much time is spent chatting between races. I'd love to have all the time back that was wasted with the above over the last two years. It adds up quickly. David G Fisher

On Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:36:38 -0400, "David G Fisher" >:You're right I suppose, but I'm not too optimistic about things getting >:better. >: >:My main complaints haven't changed since I started racing online. >: >:1. Hosts who take way too long to start the damn race. Well, on VROC you can see the time remaining in practice. I don't *think* the host can hold anything up once the whole process starts, can he? As long as my car isn't damaged, i'm there till the end. There is NO way to force people to stay and race if they are 5 laps down. Of late I am seeing less and less of Start Line and 1st corner pile ups. Stick with Pro races and I bet you see a LOT more caution at the start. GPL Spy kicks you back to IRC/ VROC. You can immediately hop into another race (if there IS one) or chat with the guys you just raced with. You choose. Don't dwell on it. G. Patricks

If you are talking GPL, the race starts automatically Agreed, Although I've quit races when driving in a crowd of idiots who are running like demolition Derby drivers. Agreed. There are some real menaces out there Your choice to disconnect and find another server Mark

% You're right I suppose, but I'm not too optimistic about things getting % better. % My main complaints haven't changed since I started racing online. % 1. Hosts who take way too long to start the damn race. Patience.... Maybe the host is waiting so that enough people can show up and have enough practice time to qualify and get in the rhythm for the track. % 2. People who quit once they feel they've fallen back too far. Well, if it's a sprint type race, I can understand why some folks want to bail once they are out of contention. They got online to race with someone, not just run around the track all by themselves. But, I agree, hey folks stick it out... the more track time you give yourself, the better you will be the next time. % 3. Drivers who try to win a race on the first lap. Hey if they are good enough to not wreck anyone, more power to them. I don't mind the ones who are quick off the line, but I don't take kindly to the ones that take out half the pack before the first turn. % 4. Chat. I know most people are trying to be friendly, but too much time is % spent chatting between races. Not a friendly person, are we? ;-) Go take a pee break or something and let the others talk. One of the things that actually helps bind the online sim-racing community is the chance to "talk" with each other. % I'd love to have all the time back that was wasted with the above over the % last two years. It adds up quickly. Almost sounds like it's time to hang up the virtual racing goggles and tend to some gardening. ;-) -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I can see your point with #s 2,3 & 4. However, my experience is that if you don't have a long practice session then you're not likely to have to many competitors. Besides that, You can see how long the practice sessions are from with in GSB and (i think) VROC.

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> You're right I suppose, but I'm not too optimistic about things getting > better. > My main complaints haven't changed since I started racing online. > 1. Hosts who take way too long to start the damn race. > 2. People who quit once they feel they've fallen back too far. > 3. Drivers who try to win a race on the first lap. > 4. Chat. I know most people are trying to be friendly, but too much time is > spent chatting between races. > I'd love to have all the time back that was wasted with the above over the > last two years. It adds up quickly. > David G Fisher > > Hey David! > > That's the wrong attitude. If you stick your head in the sand, of course > you > > won't change anything. The point is to mention it over and over and over > > again until people can't hear it anymore. As daily hundreds or whatever > ppl > > join the Internet, join GPL-Online-Races, you gotta tell them, too, so: > > Repeat the same boring theme again until the last day of life of the > > game....... > > Maybe we should get a chan-bot to do this work for us........ > > cya and don't give up! > > Markus

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? MikeBa on the TEN network. Member of R.O.R. 1999 http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music mikeba.vcf < 1K Download

In my opinion, all hosts should avoid accelerating the start of a race. Many people use that short period between the conclusion of practice and the start of the race for any number of things: last minute setup tweaks, a bit more practice for late arrivals, bathroom break, snack break, etc. For a host to prematurely start a race to satisfy the desire of one or two anxious and rude individuals, whose only interest is their own, is a mistake, and could be a disservice to the other competitors. I make it a policy to courteously invite anyone who is clamoring for a start to consider finding another server. Anyone that doesn't have the patience and consideration to wait for the normal start should not bother connecting to any race I'm hosting. Jack Rambo

G'day Dave. In answer to questions 1-4... You be the host Simple eh:))) If you can't host, well simply take the good with the bad. -- Rgds Phil. >You're right I suppose, but I'm not too optimistic about things getting >better. >My main complaints haven't changed since I started racing online. >1. Hosts who take way too long to start the damn race. >2. People who quit once they feel they've fallen back too far. >3. Drivers who try to win a race on the first lap. >4. Chat. I know most people are trying to be friendly, but too much time is >spent chatting between races. >I'd love to have all the time back that was wasted with the above over the >last two years. It adds up quickly. >David G Fisher >> Hey David! >> That's the wrong attitude. If you stick your head in the sand, of course >you >> won't change anything. The point is to mention it over and over and over >> again until people can't hear it anymore. As daily hundreds or whatever >ppl >> join the Internet, join GPL-Online-Races, you gotta tell them, too, so: >> Repeat the same boring theme again until the last day of life of the >> game....... >> Maybe we should get a chan-bot to do this work for us........ >> cya and don't give up! >> Markus

IHO waiting isn't a problem elsewhere than at Spa and the 'Ring. If it is obvious no-one is on a fast lap and there's not enough time, why don't you just ask the host to force start the race? Yeah that's a shame especially with smaller fields of cars. Actually this is not always the case. I had an amazing race yesterday at Monza, with six drivers. I qualified 4th or 5th, and at the start we all rushed into Curva Grande. I took it a little easy to avoid the mayhem but there was none! Six cars dove cleanly into the Lesmos, and then into Parabolica with no incidents in the first lap. Later I passed the no.5 guy when he went off at the end of the second lap but after that it was clean racing all the way to the end. And it was an intermediate short race! I don't see lot of meaningless chatter. Personally, I think it's nice to give credit to people who post great times in practice, wish good luck to others before the race, apologize if you***up somehow and exchange a few friendly words after the race. If the post-race turns into a chatbox, hey why don't you just leave and find another host? If you play online and keep considering the time wasted, maybe you shouldn't be playing in the first place. It is supposed to be fun you know?

% >1. Hosts who take way too long to start the damn race. % IHO waiting isn't a problem elsewhere than at Spa and the 'Ring. If it % is obvious no-one is on a fast lap and there's not enough time, why % don't you just ask the host to force start the race? Downside to this is that GPL will toss out the "qualifying" times and force a grid based on the arrival of the clients. The upside is that if you are the host you always get the pole. <G> -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Really? I though the recorded times remained in effect. Oh well, got to go host some races <g>.

>I make it a policy to courteously invite anyone who is clamoring for a start >to consider finding another server. Anyone that doesn't have the patience >and consideration to wait for the normal start should not bother connecting >to any race I'm hosting. >Jack Rambo He's back!

Did I say that? Try reading the thread from the beginning. David G Fisher

Wow. You sure jump to some conclusions. My post was a response to someone who had complaints about online racing in GPL. I said that I'd been racing online for two years and that the complaints he had were common in any racing game/sim. Many people DO waste A LOT of time when they host. David G Fisher

David... Understand that mine was a general comment, not necessarily directed at you. I do believe that anyone who comes to a hosted race and, without establishing any rapport with the host, starts badgering him/her with comments like "Let's go!!!" or "Come on. What are we waiting on?" lacks maturity and tact. Jack Rambo

Hi Jack, i agree with you here 100%.. and no i am not having a dig at you either David. I think we all should stop to remember that when we join a race in GPL we are guests on the host's computer. He has invited us there to race on his computer, so the least we can do is go along with the way the host wants to run the event. It bugs me as well when i see the: ' lets start the race' message come up in the chat window. Just maybe the host would like the qualifying times to represent the skill levels of the drivers present and not represent the way the drivers joined the race. Have a bit of patience guys, the experience is worth it. :) Cheers, Ron > David... > Understand that mine was a general comment, not necessarily directed at > you. > I do believe that anyone who comes to a hosted race and, without > establishing any rapport with the host, starts badgering him/her with > comments like "Let's go!!!" or "Come on. What are we waiting on?" lacks > maturity and tact. > Jack Rambo

>> For a host to prematurely start a race to satisfy the desire of one or two >> anxious and rude individuals, whose only interest is their own, is a >> mistake, and could be a disservice to the other competitors. >Wow. You sure jump to some conclusions. I don't think that is a concluson but an opinion as to how a host should behave. Which I agree with - many take this time to fuel up the car - get themselves comfortable - get a bottle of milk for the baby or whatever. Having got used to this delay, finding the race starting the moment the last car on that lap crosses the finish line may catch quite a few out. Good job you can press Esc rather than waiting for a tow truck then.

Go blow yourself...........then. David G Fisher

Quite right too Jack. Nothing pees me off more after a 1 hour qualifying session than popping out for a drink or something only to return to see the other guys start their second lap! Mark Anyone that doesn't have the patience >and consideration to wait for the normal start should not bother connecting >to any race I'm hosting. >Jack Rambo