GPL : front wheels not biting ?

Hi I just got the GPL, and has just moved over from GP2 While trying out on the lotus, I found the tail sliding out and try to catch it by COUNTER STEERING and lift off at the same time. I note that the front wheels DO NOT TURN much at speed but when it is slowed down or stop, it turns all the way. Is this some kind of bug or part of the simulation ???? regards Leong -- regards =========================================== Singapore

>>Is this some kind of bug or part of the simulation ???? >I haven't seen a bug, of any kind.... There is that one bug that makes using any other piece of computer software seem kinda lame....... AB

... GPL automatically uses a faster steering ratio at low speeds (a faster (numerically smaller) steering ratio causes greater front wheel deflection for an equivalent amount of steering wheel rotation). This allows you to get out of your pit stall, and navigate hairpin corners more easily. This effect reduces as your speed increases, until reaching the steering ratio defined by the setup you have on the car. Randy

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>>>Is this some kind of bug or part of the simulation ???? >>I haven't seen a bug, of any kind.... >There is that one bug that makes using any other piece of computer >software seem kinda lame....... >AB

Maybe that can get fixed with GP3???

Are you using a steering wheel or the keyboard?

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|Hi | |I just got the GPL, and has just moved over from GP2 | |While trying out on the lotus, I found the tail sliding out |and try to catch it by COUNTER STEERING and lift off |at the same time. | | |I note that the front wheels DO NOT TURN much at speed |but when it is slowed down or stop, it turns all the way. | | |Is this some kind of bug or part of the simulation ???? | | | | |regards |Leong | | | | | |-- |regards |=========================================== |Singapore |

So the game incorporates speed sensitive steering even if you don't want it? Jesse

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|... |> I note that the front wheels DO NOT TURN much at speed |> but when it is slowed down or stop, it turns all the way. | |GPL automatically uses a faster steering ratio at low speeds (a faster |(numerically smaller) steering ratio causes greater front wheel |deflection for an equivalent amount of steering wheel rotation). This |allows you to get out of your pit stall, and navigate hairpin corners |more easily. This effect reduces as your speed increases, until |reaching the steering ratio defined by the setup you have on the car. | |Randy

If you want to look at it that way, yes, it does. Randy

if that's the case. what does the Steering help option do? I'm glad someone mentioned this because I've been tweaking and tweaking but could never get that front end to stick without using the gas. If it does use speed sensitive steering.. WOW, Papyrus just dropped down on the list of realism and down on the list of good racing sims. :-( Mike Barlow

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> So the game incorporates speed sensitive steering even if you don't want it? > Jesse > |... > |> I note that the front wheels DO NOT TURN much at speed > |> but when it is slowed down or stop, it turns all the way. > | > |GPL automatically uses a faster steering ratio at low speeds (a faster > |(numerically smaller) steering ratio causes greater front wheel > |deflection for an equivalent amount of steering wheel rotation). This > |allows you to get out of your pit stall, and navigate hairpin corners > |more easily. This effect reduces as your speed increases, until > |reaching the steering ratio defined by the setup you have on the car. > | > |Randy

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? MikeBa on the TEN network. Member of R.O.R. 1999 http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music mikeba.vcf < 1K Download

On Thu, 08 Apr 1999 17:02:58 -0400, Michael Barlow > if that's the case. what does the Steering help option do? I'm glad >someone mentioned this because I've been tweaking and tweaking but could never >get that front end to stick without using the gas. If it does use speed >sensitive steering.. WOW, Papyrus just dropped down on the list of realism and >down on the list of good racing sims. :-( Yeah, that's right - there were soooo many sims and companies that were JUST not quite as good as GPL, but which thanks to this revelation are now obviously massively more complex and better simulated.... Please see my list below Cheers! John

> On Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:01:16 -0400, > >So the game incorporates speed sensitive steering even if you don't want it? > >Jesse > It is adjustable with a slider. No, it's not. Steering linearity is. Steering ratio (at speed) is. Steering ratio from a stop up to some slow-ish speed is not adjustable. Randy

On Thu, 08 Apr 1999 20:33:02 GMT, "Randy Cassidy"

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>If you want to look at it that way, yes, it does. >Randy >> So the game incorporates speed sensitive steering even if you don't >want it? >> Jesse

I guess it has to be like this cos our wheels cant even turn one whole turn let alone 2,3,4 or what ever. -- Gadget???. http://www.i-r-gadget.freeserve.co.uk UIN 862812 Please remove the "NOWT" from email if replying. soz bout tha speeling.

rrevved could you please explain this in more detail? I know how to set the ratio in the setup, and the linearity in Options. is there something else I should know about? TIA Tim

Ok, Papyrus just went back to the top im my book. If it was explained that way in the first place...;-) Thanks for the insight, Mike Barlow

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> From what I can tell the speed sensitive steering in GPL only works at very > low speed, probably <20mph, if you drive along a straight, brake hard enough > to lock the front wheels, then turn the steering to full lock you'll see the > roadwheels turn out a bit further just as your speed drops really low, this > doesnt affect normal driving just very tight hairpins and exiting pits, It's > because of the low steering lock on a PC controller. In a real car it would > involve a lot of wheel turning which we just dont have. > So it does have it even if you dont want it, but to be fair to Papyrus, you > do actually need it. :) > -- > Ian Parker > ICQ 21772592 > > if that's the case. what does the Steering help option do? I'm glad > >someone mentioned this because I've been tweaking and tweaking but could > never > >get that front end to stick without using the gas. If it does use speed > >sensitive steering.. WOW, Papyrus just dropped down on the list of realism > and > >down on the list of good racing sims. :-( > >Mike Barlow > >> So the game incorporates speed sensitive steering even if you don't want > it? > >> Jesse

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? MikeBa on the TEN network. Member of R.O.R. 1999 http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music mikeba.vcf < 1K Download

Randy, Is there a way to fix this or turn it off in the upcoming patch? I'm having big problems getting the lock I "want" in tight turns... (Mexico especially). or when trying to correct a spin. Even with the steering set to 12:1. Please? :-) -- All the best, Edwin Solheim *remove SPAM-GUARD in address to reply* The Paddock - a legendary site.... <http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock> > If you want to look at it that way, yes, it does. > Randy > > So the game incorporates speed sensitive steering even if you don't > want it?

From what I can tell the speed sensitive steering in GPL only works at very low speed, probably <20mph, if you drive along a straight, brake hard enough to lock the front wheels, then turn the steering to full lock you'll see the roadwheels turn out a bit further just as your speed drops really low, this doesnt affect normal driving just very tight hairpins and exiting pits, It's because of the low steering lock on a PC controller. In a real car it would involve a lot of wheel turning which we just dont have. So it does have it even if you dont want it, but to be fair to Papyrus, you do actually need it. :) -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592 > if that's the case. what does the Steering help option do? I'm glad >someone mentioned this because I've been tweaking and tweaking but could never >get that front end to stick without using the gas. If it does use speed >sensitive steering.. WOW, Papyrus just dropped down on the list of realism and >down on the list of good racing sims. :-( >Mike Barlow >> So the game incorporates speed sensitive steering even if you don't want it? >> Jesse

Hi I am using MS sidewinder joystick not feedback so far so good, I have learnt to adjust according but thought of getting a wheel Does the wheel give 2 1/2 turns from lock to lock ?

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| Are you using a steering wheel or the keyboard? | | |Hi | | | |I just got the GPL, and has just moved over from GP2 | | | |While trying out on the lotus, I found the tail sliding

out | |and try to catch it by COUNTER STEERING and lift off | |at the same time. | | | | | |I note that the front wheels DO NOT TURN much at speed | |but when it is slowed down or stop, it turns all the way.

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| | | | | |Is this some kind of bug or part of the simulation ???? | | | | | | | | | |regards | |Leong | | | | | | | | | | | |-- | |regards | |Leong email : | |=========================================== | |Singapore | | | | |

Hi rrevved

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| On 8 Apr 1999 14:44:30 +0800, | | >Hi | > | >I just got the GPL, and has just moved over from GP2 | > | | Very different, isn't it? | | >While trying out on the lotus, I found the tail sliding

out | >and try to catch it by COUNTER STEERING and lift off | >at the same time. | > | | Maybe you should try a -slight- bit of throttle instead of | lifting, when you are oversteering (loose). This can transfer | a little weight to your back wheels and catch the back end. | Also, lifting off the throttle will transfer weight to the front, | from the rear wheels and causing even -more- oversteer. | ============================================= Wait, I thought when the BACK is coming adrift you should not power it any more, so that the back wheel could get it grip again. Transfering weight to the front is what I need to get more grip to the front , right ? | > | >I note that the front wheels DO NOT TURN much at speed | >but when it is slowed down or stop, it turns all the way. | > | | You can set the sensitivity and speed correction for | your wheel, in the GPL control section. | ============================================= are you referring to linear and non linear ? but that not speed correction.

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| > | >Is this some kind of bug or part of the simulation ???? | > | | I haven't seen a bug, of any kind.... | | -- | // rrevved posts from mindspring dot com | ========================================

Interestingly there is NO PATCH for GPL. There is a way to make games without all the bugs !!

i thoght 20:1 was for tight turns circuits ... and 12.1 for ovals :) who is wrong? edwin or me? McKafre De La Rosa

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>Randy, >Is there a way to fix this or turn it off in the upcoming patch? >I'm having big problems getting the lock I "want" in tight turns... (Mexico >especially). >or when trying to correct a spin. >Even with the steering set to 12:1. >Please? :-) >-- >All the best, >Edwin Solheim *remove SPAM-GUARD in address to reply* >The Paddock - a legendary site.... ><http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock> >> If you want to look at it that way, yes, it does. >> Randy >> > So the game incorporates speed sensitive steering even if you don't >> want it?

The problem is that if you spin coming into a corner you have done some braking and the weight will be in the front. Thus lifting the throttle off will cause the car to act nervously and actually make it more difficult to prevent the spin. Yes, but the front isn't usually the one that escapes. Quick opposite lock when the rear starts to go and if that doesn't work, steer into the spin and give it moderate gas (about 70%). There will be, and it will address all kinds of quirks and improve the game considerably.

270*? My Thrustmaster T2 only has a little over 180* lock to lock. Unless I'm missing something in the post. Or there is more to offer in the T2 by taking the stops out. (?) Mike Barlow

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> On 9 Apr 99 02:36:47 GMT, > >Hi > >I am using MS sidewinder joystick > >not feedback > >so far so good, I have learnt to adjust according > >but thought of getting a wheel > >Does the wheel give 2 1/2 turns from lock to lock ? > No, and neither does any real race car allow that much movement. > Typically, in a PC wheel, you can expect 270 degrees, or so. > >| Are you using a steering wheel or the keyboard? > >| > >| |Hi > >| | > >| |I just got the GPL, and has just moved over from GP2 > >| | > >| |While trying out on the lotus, I found the tail sliding > >out > >| |and try to catch it by COUNTER STEERING and lift off > >| |at the same time. > >| | > >| | > >| |I note that the front wheels DO NOT TURN much at speed > >| |but when it is slowed down or stop, it turns all the > >way. > >| | > >| | > >| |Is this some kind of bug or part of the simulation ???? > >| | > >| | > >| | > >| | > >| |regards > >| |Leong > >| | > >| | > >| | > >| | > >| | > >| |-- > >| |regards > >| |Leong email : > >| |=========================================== > >| |Singapore > >| | > >| > >| > >| > -- > // rrevved posts from mindspring dot com

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? MikeBa on the TEN network. Member of R.O.R. 1999 http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music mikeba.vcf < 1K Download

On Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:44:19 -0400, Michael Barlow > 270*? My Thrustmaster T2 only has a little over 180* lock to lock. >Unless I'm missing something in the post. Or there is more to offer in >the T2 by taking the stops out. (?) Yeah, and you have to strain just to get the 180 -- -Gunslinger-

> Steering ratio from a stop up to some slow-ish speed is not adjustable. What is that speed? Does it change from track to track or with other factors? -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

You've got it backwards. A 12:1 ratio means that 12 degrees of turn at the steering wheel equals 1 degree at the tires. This gives faster steering response than a 20:1 ratio, and since lock is limited, a tighter turning circle in hairpins. But either will be plenty if you don't run your linearity slider too far to the right. I run mine at or nearly at full-left and can use 20:1 at Monaco without trouble. That's the course where I use the slowest ratio, as precision is vital there. Cheers, Steve B. On Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:24:32 +0200, "McKafre" >i thoght 20:1 was for tight turns circuits ... and 12.1 for ovals :) >who is wrong? edwin or me? Remove "edy" from address for email

> > Steering ratio from a stop up to some slow-ish speed is not adjustable. > What is that speed? Does it change from track to track > or with other factors? I don't recall exactly, but I think the effect is completely gone at around 60MPH, and is more pronounced at very low speeds (below around 15MPH). The effect does not change based on the track, and no other factors alter it. Randy

Yes, you can get more by modifying the stops, and it'll give you much better precision for GPL. I first did it to my GP1 per Alison Hine's recommendation and later to my Wingman Formula. Highly recommended! Steve B. On Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:44:19 -0400, Michael Barlow > 270*? My Thrustmaster T2 only has a little over 180* lock to lock. >Unless I'm missing something in the post. Or there is more to offer in >the T2 by taking the stops out. (?) Remove "edy" from address for email

The stops are still in my T2, and I get about 240degs. You should get the same, that *little over* 180 is about 30 degs on each side.

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> 270*? My Thrustmaster T2 only has a little over 180* lock to lock. > Unless I'm missing something in the post. Or there is more to offer in > the T2 by taking the stops out. (?) > Mike Barlow > > On 9 Apr 99 02:36:47 GMT, > > >Hi > > >I am using MS sidewinder joystick > > >not feedback > > >so far so good, I have learnt to adjust according > > >but thought of getting a wheel > > >Does the wheel give 2 1/2 turns from lock to lock ? > > No, and neither does any real race car allow that much movement. > > Typically, in a PC wheel, you can expect 270 degrees, or so. > > >| Are you using a steering wheel or the keyboard? > > >| > > >| |Hi > > >| | > > >| |I just got the GPL, and has just moved over from GP2 > > >| | > > >| |While trying out on the lotus, I found the tail sliding > > >out > > >| |and try to catch it by COUNTER STEERING and lift off > > >| |at the same time. > > >| | > > >| | > > >| |I note that the front wheels DO NOT TURN much at speed > > >| |but when it is slowed down or stop, it turns all the > > >way. > > >| | > > >| | > > >| |Is this some kind of bug or part of the simulation ???? > > >| | > > >| | > > >| | > > >| | > > >| |regards > > >| |Leong > > >| | > > >| | > > >| | > > >| | > > >| | > > >| |-- > > >| |regards > > >| |Leong email : > > >| |=========================================== > > >| |Singapore > > >| | > > >| > > >| > > >| > > -- > > // rrevved posts from mindspring dot com > -- > ========================================= > Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? > MikeBa on the TEN network. > Member of R.O.R. 1999 > http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html > ========================================= > Racing online with the help of...... > Race Communications Association > http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html > Holodyne Engineering > Mystic Music

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> > > Steering ratio from a stop up to some slow-ish speed is not > adjustable. > > What is that speed? Does it change from track to track > > or with other factors? > I don't recall exactly, but I think the effect is completely gone at > around 60MPH, and is more pronounced at very low speeds (below around > 15MPH). The effect does not change based on the track, and no other > factors alter it.

I think 60 mph is too fast for the cutout of the effect. Sometimes if I slide in a slow turn, I can see that the wheels aren't turning all the way to the locks, even though I have the wheel turned all the way. That makes it hard to catch the spin. Seems like the effect should be completely eliminated by the time you hit about 15 mph. BTW, at which is the wheel steering lock level more realistic for a GPL style car - slow or high speed? If slow-speed lock is more realistic, why not just leave it at that? -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Mckafre... you are wrong, sorry to say :-( Think about this: a racing go-kart has direct steering, which is 1:1... with that in mind, it's easy to figure out the rest. --Dave

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> i thoght 20:1 was for tight turns circuits ... and 12.1 for ovals :) > who is wrong? edwin or me? > McKafre De La Rosa > >Randy, > >Is there a way to fix this or turn it off in the upcoming patch? > >I'm having big problems getting the lock I "want" in tight turns... (Mexico > >especially). > >or when trying to correct a spin. > >Even with the steering set to 12:1. > >Please? :-) > >-- > >All the best, > >Edwin Solheim *remove SPAM-GUARD in address to reply* > >The Paddock - a legendary site.... > ><http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock> > >> If you want to look at it that way, yes, it does. > >> Randy > >> > So the game incorporates speed sensitive steering even if you don't > >> want it?

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

> Mckafre... you are wrong, sorry to say :-( > Think about this: a racing go-kart has direct steering, which is 1:1... > with that in mind, it's easy to figure out the rest. Schwabe, you are mistaken here. A racing go-kart does NOT have 1:1 steering ratio. If it did, a 90 degree turn of the steering wheel would result in the front wheels turning 90 degrees. The karts I've driven had steering ratios in the 3:1 to 5:1 range, and most could be adjusted by moving the rod ends closer to or further from the pivots. Trips

Well, yes, Trips... you are right about the ratio NOT being 1:1.... but it's a hell of a lot quicker than anything else!! :-) My point, erroneous as the number were, was that the lower numbers in the first number mean faster steering. --dave

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> > Mckafre... you are wrong, sorry to say :-( > > Think about this: a racing go-kart has direct steering, which is 1:1... > > with that in mind, it's easy to figure out the rest. > Schwabe, you are mistaken here. > A racing go-kart does NOT have 1:1 steering ratio. If it did, a 90 degree turn of > the steering wheel would result in the front wheels turning 90 degrees. The karts > I've driven had steering ratios in the 3:1 to 5:1 range, and most could be > adjusted by moving the rod ends closer to or further from the pivots. > Trips

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

I think I still haven't explained this well enough yet. Perform this experiment... Go to Monza. Change your car setup so that the steering ratio is numerically as low as it will go. Get into the car. While sitting still, turn the wheel to the lock. Note how far the front wheels deflect. Get out of the car. Change your car setup so that the steering ratio is numerically as high as it will go. Get into the car. While sitting still, turn the wheel to the lock. Note that the front wheels have deflected exactly the same amount as before. WTH? Now, blast down the front straight at high speed. Lock up your brakes so that your car will continue straight down the track. Turn your wheel to either lock and hold it there. While still moving at high speed, look at how much your front wheels have deflected. Note that it's much less than when you were sitting still. Get out of the car. Change the car setup again so the steering ratio is numerically as low as it will go. Blast down the front straight again, lock the brakes, and turn the wheel to either lock. While still moving at high speed, note that your front wheels have turned much more than when you were moving at high speed before, but still not as much as when you were stopped. Continue to keep the brakes locked, and continue to hold the wheel at its stop. As you slow down, note that once you get below ~60MPH, your front wheels begin to deflect more and more, even though you're holding the wheel steady. Hmmmm.... What can be inferred from these observations? (1) The steering ratio while at a stop is not governed by the steering ratio defined by the car setup. (2) The steering ratio while at a stop is significantly lower (faster) than what you can select on the car setup screen. (3) Since the amount of front wheel deflection only begins to increase as the vehicle speed decreases through ~60MPH, this effect is only applied below that speed. Above that speed, the steering ratio you've defined for the car setup rules. (4) If the maximum speed at which these shenanigans are applied is reduced to ~15MPH from ~60MPH, you would have even *less* available front wheel deflection to try and catch a low-speed (> ~15MPH, < ~60MPH) spin. Ok, so that was a bit long winded. But the experiment is informative :-) Randy

Well that is not true. a steering ratio is a fixed number. Ok you are talking about the deflection that the tires and compliant bushing have. Well the tires will have a trail to them that effects the steering, but in a Formula 1 car even that old will not use compliant bushing, it should be using rod ends which have a compliance low enought to not even look at. This should still not effect the steering rate a 12:1 rate is a 12:1 rate no matter what you do. The tires compliance or trail does not effect the rate. You may be tryin to explain a the actaul steering ratio to the aparent steering ratio when you take into account all the influencing factors that tire and suspension compliance do. Also the Chassis compliance will have some effect too. Dave

ROTFL!

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> if that's the case. what does the Steering help option do? I'm glad > someone mentioned this because I've been tweaking and tweaking but could never > get that front end to stick without using the gas. If it does use speed > sensitive steering.. WOW, Papyrus just dropped down on the list of realism and > down on the list of good racing sims. :-( > Mike Barlow

<snip> Ok, what happens in a situation where you are see-sawing around 60 MPH? How fast does the lock/ratio increase? If you're in a long drift/slide and accellerating, wouldn't this make car behaviour odd? Or does it only happen at full lock? I guess not, since there have been times when I have wondered what has been going on, for example, in Tarzan at Zandvoort. I usually run 12:1 or 13:1..... Hopefully, it explanins my erratic driving in Mexico :-) I guess this is implemented for N3, since we don't really pit much in GPL..? It would be interesting to be able to turn it off completely, I'm used to try to move a racecar around in the paddock <g> Matt -- ----------------------------------------- Matthew Knutsen "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/simrace1.htm -----------------------------------------

Not at all Randy. It was perfect. Now we can all understand how the steering functions work. It would have been nice to have it explained that fully in the manual :) > Ok, so that was a bit long winded. But the experiment is informative > :-) > Randy -- ------------------------------------------------------ IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html ------------------------------------------------------

Hi Randy what you have just described is called POWER STEERING in the real world. In power steering setups nowadays, they have speed sensitive power inputs. High speed = low power assistance Low speed= more power assistance GPL in its old days should not have power steering. I think we just found a bug !!!!! article | > I think 60 mph is too fast for the cutout of the effect. | > Sometimes if I slide in a slow turn, I can see that the | > wheels aren't turning all the way to the locks, even | > though I have the wheel turned all the way. That makes | > it hard to catch the spin. Seems like the effect should | > be completely eliminated by the time you hit about 15 mph. | | I think I still haven't explained this well enough yet. | | Perform this experiment... | Go to Monza. | Change your car setup so that the steering ratio is numerically as | low as it will go. | Get into the car. | While sitting still, turn the wheel to the lock. | Note how far the front wheels deflect. | Get out of the car. | Change your car setup so that the steering ratio is numerically as | high as it will go. | Get into the car. | While sitting still, turn the wheel to the lock. | Note that the front wheels have deflected exactly the same amount as | before. WTH? | Now, blast down the front straight at high speed. | Lock up your brakes so that your car will continue straight down the | track. | Turn your wheel to either lock and hold it there. | While still moving at high speed, look at how much your front wheels | have deflected. Note that it's much less than when you were sitting | still. | Get out of the car. | Change the car setup again so the steering ratio is numerically as | low as it will go. | Blast down the front straight again, lock the brakes, and turn the | wheel to either lock. | While still moving at high speed, note that your front wheels have | turned much more than when you were moving at high speed before, but | still not as much as when you were stopped. | Continue to keep the brakes locked, and continue to hold the wheel at | its stop. | As you slow down, note that once you get below ~60MPH, your front | wheels begin to deflect more and more, even though you're holding the | wheel steady. | Hmmmm.... | | What can be inferred from these observations? | | (1) The steering ratio while at a stop is not governed by the steering | ratio defined by the car setup. | (2) The steering ratio while at a stop is significantly lower (faster) | than what you can select on the car setup screen. | (3) Since the amount of front wheel deflection only begins to increase | as the vehicle speed decreases through ~60MPH, this effect is only | applied below that speed. Above that speed, the steering ratio you've | defined for the car setup rules. | (4) If the maximum speed at which these shenanigans are applied is | reduced to ~15MPH from ~60MPH, you would have even *less* available | front wheel deflection to try and catch a low-speed (> ~15MPH, < | ~60MPH) spin. | | Ok, so that was a bit long winded. But the experiment is informative | :-) | | Randy |

I agree.. With most steering wheels there is only like 240* or so of travel. For those that don't modify their wheels to accommodate 360*+ it's a good idea to have the current setup in GPL (Although it need to be adjusted some). For those of us that have 360*+, It's best to turn it completely off. BTW: I just figured out how to get that 360*+ :-)

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> On Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:35:02 GMT, "Randy Cassidy" > >Ok, so that was a bit long winded. But the experiment is informative > >:-) > Thanks for the explanation. > One thing though - is there an argument for disabling this feature at the > start of a race? It is awfully easy for cars to drift across the track > simply because of the rear wheels wanting to overtake the front ones <g>. > With a much faster steering ratio in effect until the cars get to 60mph > this makes it that much worse and is no doubt contributing to much of the > mayhem that all too often takes place :( > Just a thought. > Cheers, > Richard > -- > We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our opinions > whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie...

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? MikeBa on the TEN network. Member of R.O.R. 1999 http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music mikeba.vcf < 1K Download

On Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:28:10 -0400, Michael Barlow > I agree.. With most steering wheels there is only like 240* or so of travel. >For those that don't modify their wheels to accommodate 360*+ it's a good idea to >have the current setup in GPL (Although it need to be adjusted some). For those >of us that have 360*+, It's best to turn it completely off. > BTW: I just figured out how to get that 360*+ :-) How can I get 360 with a T2? -- -Gunslinger-

woops, I think I said that backwards. (?)

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> I agree.. With most steering wheels there is only like 240* or so of travel. > For those that don't modify their wheels to accommodate 360*+ it's a good idea to > have the current setup in GPL (Although it need to be adjusted some). For those > of us that have 360*+, It's best to turn it completely off. > BTW: I just figured out how to get that 360*+ :-) > > On Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:35:02 GMT, "Randy Cassidy" > > >Ok, so that was a bit long winded. But the experiment is informative > > >:-) > > Thanks for the explanation. > > One thing though - is there an argument for disabling this feature at the > > start of a race? It is awfully easy for cars to drift across the track > > simply because of the rear wheels wanting to overtake the front ones <g>. > > With a much faster steering ratio in effect until the cars get to 60mph > > this makes it that much worse and is no doubt contributing to much of the > > mayhem that all too often takes place :( > > Just a thought. > > Cheers, > > Richard > > -- > > We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our opinions > > whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie... > -- > ========================================= > Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? > MikeBa on the TEN network. > Member of R.O.R. 1999 > http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html > ========================================= > Racing online with the help of...... > Race Communications Association > http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html > Holodyne Engineering > Mystic Music

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? MikeBa on the TEN network. Member of R.O.R. 1999 http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music mikeba.vcf < 1K Download

You took the words out of my mouth Pat! I'll second that!! And besides... the were no variable steering lock in '67 !! :-)) (Hell they aint even got it today....) -- All the best, Edwin Solheim *remove SPAM-GUARD in address to reply* The Paddock - a legendary site.... <http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock> > I think 60 mph is too fast for the cutout of the effect. > Sometimes if I slide in a slow turn, I can see that the > wheels aren't turning all the way to the locks, even > though I have the wheel turned all the way. That makes > it hard to catch the spin. Seems like the effect should > be completely eliminated by the time you hit about 15 mph. > BTW, at which is the wheel steering lock level more > realistic for a GPL style car - slow or high speed? > If slow-speed lock is more realistic, why not just > leave it at that?

dribbled the following: Nah, what hes saying is ALL steering wheels can not turn more then one complete turn. So there has to be a compromise. e.g how can you turn full lock if your computer wheel only does 270 degrees where as a real car can turn maybe 5 times lock to lock depend on the car. But you are half right also, because GPL dont support force feedback and therefore feels just like an early days power steering without the speed senced reduction. -- Gadget???. http://www.i-r-gadget.freeserve.co.uk UIN 862812 Please remove the "NOWT" from email if replying. soz bout tha speeling.

A quick stab to the left is the correct procedure, but if that doesn't work and the car slides pointing to the right and slightly sideways, I've noticed it usually rights itself by turning right.

It is called pnuematic trail and mechanical trail. THe mechanical trail aspect should be close to nil since even old F1 cars should have rod ends for suspension pickup points, and no bushing deflection. These two trails tho make the sim. IT gives you the feeling of driving the car. Also since I drive Solo ll and its a low speed sport ( cars should be under 70 mph for most Stock and Street Prepared classes) I can attest to the way these two types of trail work. For more information a back issue of Road and Track gives a very good description of it. The deflction you are seeing is not a variable steering rate but the fact the pneumatic trail of the tires are effecting how the car turns, or in a simpler term, the contact patch of tire is not moving near as much at meduim and high speed as it does at low speed. Dave

In software engineering business we call it a feature ;o) Tadej

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> Hi Randy > what you have just described is called POWER STEERING > in the real world. > In power steering setups nowadays, they have speed > sensitive > power inputs. > High speed = low power assistance > Low speed= more power assistance > GPL in its old days should not have power steering. > I think we just found a bug !!!!! > article > | > I think 60 mph is too fast for the cutout of the > effect. > | > Sometimes if I slide in a slow turn, I can see that the > | > wheels aren't turning all the way to the locks, even > | > though I have the wheel turned all the way. That makes > | > it hard to catch the spin. Seems like the effect > should > | > be completely eliminated by the time you hit about 15 > mph. > | > | I think I still haven't explained this well enough yet. > | > | Perform this experiment... > | Go to Monza. > | Change your car setup so that the steering ratio is > numerically as > | low as it will go. > | Get into the car. > | While sitting still, turn the wheel to the lock. > | Note how far the front wheels deflect. > | Get out of the car. > | Change your car setup so that the steering ratio is > numerically as > | high as it will go. > | Get into the car. > | While sitting still, turn the wheel to the lock. > | Note that the front wheels have deflected exactly the > same amount as > | before. WTH? > | Now, blast down the front straight at high speed. > | Lock up your brakes so that your car will continue > straight down the > | track. > | Turn your wheel to either lock and hold it there. > | While still moving at high speed, look at how much your > front wheels > | have deflected. Note that it's much less than when you > were sitting > | still. > | Get out of the car. > | Change the car setup again so the steering ratio is > numerically as > | low as it will go. > | Blast down the front straight again, lock the brakes, > and turn the > | wheel to either lock. > | While still moving at high speed, note that your front > wheels have > | turned much more than when you were moving at high speed > before, but > | still not as much as when you were stopped. > | Continue to keep the brakes locked, and continue to > hold the wheel at > | its stop. > | As you slow down, note that once you get below ~60MPH, > your front > | wheels begin to deflect more and more, even though you're > holding the > | wheel steady. > | Hmmmm.... > | > | What can be inferred from these observations? > | > | (1) The steering ratio while at a stop is not governed by > the steering > | ratio defined by the car setup. > | (2) The steering ratio while at a stop is significantly > lower (faster) > | than what you can select on the car setup screen. > | (3) Since the amount of front wheel deflection only > begins to increase > | as the vehicle speed decreases through ~60MPH, this > effect is only > | applied below that speed. Above that speed, the steering > ratio you've > | defined for the car setup rules. > | (4) If the maximum speed at which these shenanigans are > applied is > | reduced to ~15MPH from ~60MPH, you would have even *less* > available > | front wheel deflection to try and catch a low-speed (> > ~15MPH, < > | ~60MPH) spin. > | > | Ok, so that was a bit long winded. But the experiment is > informative > | :-) > | > | Randy > |

But you forgot to mention that then lock-to-lock recovering will be harder because it will take more time to do it. Also, you won't be able to accelerate out of corners as fast as if you could do quick lock-to-lock (I've seen Sasa and Wolfgang doing it very well). But you do win in the precision part. Tadej

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> Yes, you can get more by modifying the stops, and it'll give you much > better precision for GPL. I first did it to my GP1 per Alison Hine's > recommendation and later to my Wingman Formula. Highly recommended! > Steve B. > On Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:44:19 -0400, Michael Barlow > > 270*? My Thrustmaster T2 only has a little over 180* lock to lock. > >Unless I'm missing something in the post. Or there is more to offer in > >the T2 by taking the stops out. (?) > Remove "edy" from address for email

Power steering changes the amount of torque that is required to turn the steering wheel. It does not change how much front wheel deflection is generated by a given amount of steering wheel rotation (the steering ratio). Randy

True enough for fast opp-lock access, but I guess that sort of thing offends my sense of aesthetics. Since you can't make those virtually-instant corrections in a real car due to the amount of lock required and mass of the parts involved, I don't like to do it in GPL. I even stiffened my centering springs to keep me from sawing at the wheel so much. It forces me to be smoother. That quick-correct ability is why a joystick works so well for GPL. I've tried one and posted before that I think a stick/pedal setup is probably the optimal controller for GPL if you take the time to get used to it. I'll give up the extra speed for immersion, myself, but don't have a problem with anyone choosing differently. It's a bit like setups; everyone likes something a bit different. Cheers, Steve B.

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>But you forgot to mention that then lock-to-lock recovering will be harder >because it will take more time >to do it. Also, you won't be able to accelerate out of corners as fast as if >you could do quick lock-to-lock >(I've seen Sasa and Wolfgang doing it very well). >But you do win in the precision part. >Tadej

Remove "edy" from address for email

If you think this is a bug then try F1GP1. Then you'll know why this is done. F1GP1 was undrivable at high speeds without steering help on.

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> Hi Randy > what you have just described is called POWER STEERING > in the real world. > In power steering setups nowadays, they have speed > sensitive > power inputs. > High speed = low power assistance > Low speed= more power assistance > GPL in its old days should not have power steering. > I think we just found a bug !!!!! > article > | > I think 60 mph is too fast for the cutout of the > effect. > | > Sometimes if I slide in a slow turn, I can see that the > | > wheels aren't turning all the way to the locks, even > | > though I have the wheel turned all the way. That makes > | > it hard to catch the spin. Seems like the effect > should > | > be completely eliminated by the time you hit about 15 > mph. > | > | I think I still haven't explained this well enough yet. > | > | Perform this experiment... > | Go to Monza. > | Change your car setup so that the steering ratio is > numerically as > | low as it will go. > | Get into the car. > | While sitting still, turn the wheel to the lock. > | Note how far the front wheels deflect. > | Get out of the car. > | Change your car setup so that the steering ratio is > numerically as > | high as it will go. > | Get into the car. > | While sitting still, turn the wheel to the lock. > | Note that the front wheels have deflected exactly the > same amount as > | before. WTH? > | Now, blast down the front straight at high speed. > | Lock up your brakes so that your car will continue > straight down the > | track. > | Turn your wheel to either lock and hold it there. > | While still moving at high speed, look at how much your > front wheels > | have deflected. Note that it's much less than when you > were sitting > | still. > | Get out of the car. > | Change the car setup again so the steering ratio is > numerically as > | low as it will go. > | Blast down the front straight again, lock the brakes, > and turn the > | wheel to either lock. > | While still moving at high speed, note that your front > wheels have > | turned much more than when you were moving at high speed > before, but > | still not as much as when you were stopped. > | Continue to keep the brakes locked, and continue to > hold the wheel at > | its stop. > | As you slow down, note that once you get below ~60MPH, > your front > | wheels begin to deflect more and more, even though you're > holding the > | wheel steady. > | Hmmmm.... > | > | What can be inferred from these observations? > | > | (1) The steering ratio while at a stop is not governed by > the steering > | ratio defined by the car setup. > | (2) The steering ratio while at a stop is significantly > lower (faster) > | than what you can select on the car setup screen. > | (3) Since the amount of front wheel deflection only > begins to increase > | as the vehicle speed decreases through ~60MPH, this > effect is only > | applied below that speed. Above that speed, the steering > ratio you've > | defined for the car setup rules. > | (4) If the maximum speed at which these shenanigans are > applied is > | reduced to ~15MPH from ~60MPH, you would have even *less* > available > | front wheel deflection to try and catch a low-speed (> > ~15MPH, < > | ~60MPH) spin. > | > | Ok, so that was a bit long winded. But the experiment is > informative > | :-) > | > | Randy > |

In real life, yes, steering ratio is a fixed number. In GPL the steering ratio varies as I've described in this thread. Try the experiment. Randy