GPL - Online Racing Etiquette

Hi Folks! This question has probably been asked many times before but... What is the best way of dealing with other cars in GPL online? I'm not the fastest driver online by any means, not the slowest either so I often end up mid pack... Below is a summary of my racing ethics... Do you agree or disagree? 1) Faster car behind me... racing for position. I keep my line at all times, it's up to the car behind to get overtake properly even if he is faster than me. Once he has pulled out to overtake, when we reach the braking zone for the next corner, IF he is BESIDE me I will brake a little early so I can slot in behind him smoothly and maybe get a tow on the next straight. IF he is only half way up the side of me I brake as normal but go deep, leaving enough room for us to go through side by side. IF he hasn't made the move and isn't beside me at all I stick to my line. 2) Faster car behind me... lapping me. I keep my line.... same as above except I don't contest the next corner at all, I just let him through. By this I mean I stay on line on straights, let him make the move, and either brake early or go wide to let him through on the next bend as necessary. (In case anyone is wondering, I DON'T mean that I brake early with other cars behind me! I ONLY brake early if they are to the side and won't hit me. If a car is right on my tail I just stay on the racing line... like I said it's up to them to get past safely and cleanly.) 3) Overtaking slower cars... either for position or backmarkers. This is what made me think about what I do. I'm coming up to another car, I'm on his tail exiting a bend, I pull off the line coming out of the bend to overtake... If I'm clear of him before the next bend I pull back on line and drive as normal. But what if we are side by side going into the next bend? If he keeps his line we will crash unless I abort the move and brake hard to let him through. By getting beside him into the next bend I have put myself into a postion of great danger... I have the corner, but does he know it? He can hear me beside him, so what should he do? Cut across me or go wide so we go side by side through the bend? If he is a backmarker he should let me through, but what if we are racing? I've said what I would do in points 1) and 2). 4) Overtaking evenly matched cars for position. Combination of all of the above... The most important thing is to avoid an accident. The reason I don't like the idea of pulling off line to let someone pass is the unpredictability factor. How many times have you been on someones tail coming out of a bend, and as you pull out to overtake, they move across as well 'to let you through'? What does everyone think? I think it is like the way they used to drive in 1967, letting a rival past in one corner, re-taking a couple of corners later etc... until one of them gets far enough in front to break away.... From SpeedFreek (This'll put the cat amongst the pidgeons!)

says... Agree, let him find a way around you. If you're tired of the pressure he's putting on you, or if you're not completely confident he can follow you cleanly through corners lap after lap, find a convenient STRAIGHT section of track and make a definitive and obvious move to the inside and let him go. I generally follow the same strategy as item 1. If he's faster, then he can find a way around me. Again, if I decided it's the prudent thing to do, I'll move over, but only if I feel like it. I certainly don't overtly block faster drivers, but they'll have to work for the position. For instance, at Monza with a fast Lotus or Eagle on my butt, I'll come out of the Parabolica and scoot to the right, but I will NOT slow down. A properly setup Lotus/Eagle can outrun a Brabham on the Monza front straight. If they don't make the pass, then they'll have to follow me around the track again. It would be REALLY nice if we only got a blue flag (or even a blue flag with a yellow stripe) if the car behind us is about to lap us. Otherwise, we shouldn't see a blue flag at all (just my opinion). You're faster - it's your job to find a way around him. You should NOT expect him to just go belly up on you and let you by. You should NOT try passing him in a turn. You caught him for a reason, and that reason was most probably that he botched up more than one turn. You don't want to put yourself in a position to let him take you out in a turn. You also don't want to follow too closely or directly behind him. Analyze his line (again assuming he will maintain this line throughout the course of a lap), and find a turn that you can get a good rtun on him. THEN set yourself up for that turn on the next lap and blast by him on the subsequent straight. -- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html IGPS (Season 2) Director http://207.104.111.77/igps2/igps2.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

>Hi Folks! Hi Agreed. Well, I don't agree with your solution described in 2). Basically you said it yourself in 3). The problem is, the faster car doesn't know you'll brake early when (s)he is beside you. And that is the problem. The most important thing is, the "overtaked" must be predictable for the "overtaker". Beside that, there are a lot of tracks (Monaco!) where it is impossible for an "overtaker" to predict where an "overtaked" will slow down. What I do, as "overtaked", is moving offline, in a predictable way. I leave the racingline open for the "overtaker". If you do it in time, without slowing down first, the "overtaker" knows what you want to do, and has plenty of time to make his/her move. I haven't had an accident yet, this way. (as "overtaked") OTOH, as "overtaker". the most accidents I had was because the "overtaked" wasn't predictable. As example, at Watkins Glen, in the Big Bend, most "overtaked" go wide. If you want to overtake them at the inside, (because of a better exit in the Loop, I've way more speed there), they come back to the inside, with an accident as result. Remco

>1) Faster car behind me... racing for position. >2) Faster car behind me... lapping me. How can you tell? For me, it just seems like another car passing me - again! Usually one of those green things... :) Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Think everyone covered your points well. However, one of the biggest things I feel that people need to pay attention to is the starts. This is the one time that everyone is bunched up and right on top of each other. Give room and do NOT try and win the race on the first corner and even the first lap. Get in position and give the tires time to warm up. This is especially important considering the horrid job that GPL does at collision detection and the online collision physics (i.e. I was midpack the other night in a Cov only WG race....race started, the driver behind me decided to blast his way to the front or something and ran into me at like 20 to 25 mph. Even this slow speed of a crash sent me at least 50 feet in the air.)

>Agree, let him find a way around you. If you're tired of the pressure >he's putting on you, or if you're not completely confident he can follow >you cleanly through corners lap after lap, find a convenient STRAIGHT >section of track and make a definitive and obvious move to the inside and >let him go. I share your thoughts there - I'll pretty much never let someone go if it's for position, they'll need to work out how to get around. Here we differ hugely, if someone's lapping me I'll always let them by as soon as it is safe and convenient to do so. Holding up someone who's lapping you is a _very_ poor show in my book. Someone may be able to run much faster than me in clear traffic but be unable to get by, and meanwhile I'm holding him up and screwing up his race. Letting someone through is only manners. Not everyone drives a Brabham and not all the fast guys drive an Eagle or Lotus. A fast driver in a Coventry could follow a lapped Eagle forever and a day round Monza, since he's slower on the straights and can't use his cornering advantage. It would be easier, but that's the way it was in '67. Well, you could wait and see if he "maybe" is slow at that point on the next lap or if maybe he made a mistake and will make one again. OTOH if that was a rare mistake then this moment may be the only chance you will get. Basically if you are ahead it's your corner, if you are behind it's his. If you are both level then you HOLD your line and don't take him off - and hope he gives the same courtesy to you. Personally if I was the guy you were passing and you were alongside and backed out of the pass I would make sure that any other time you tried to pass I squeezed you mercilessly to see if you would back out again. If you do, my corner. I don't think anyone should be able to bully their way into beating someone, or be allowed to get into the habit of thinking it's okay. For that reason if I'm alongside I'll go for the pass every time, and if someone turns in and takes me out, well, we both learned something. The real problem, IMO, is that people don't know the braking points for overtaking maneouvres. I bet you know precisely where your brake point is for Parabolica, but how about if you're squeezed tight over to the right? Chances are you don't, so you brake too early and find the other guy sailing in front of you (remember he's on the left and has the "correct" braking point) or you go way too late, slide wide and take yourself and your opponent off - YOUR fault. It's an idea to practice tracks like that, go around in training braking into the corners from the wrong side or from various positions on the track so you know exactly when to brake so you stay on the track and tight into your own side. Setting up look left/right onto easily accessed keys helps as well - I have them on the steering wheel buttons of my TSW so all the way into the corner I can keep flicking glances across to my opponent and confirm if it really is my corner or not! Trouble is, if we're both level at the braking zone and he/she brakes better than I do, we're probably gonna crash - by the time we reach turn-in it's gonna be their corner but I've got nothing left brakes-wise to back off more and let them go. Then it's praying time :-) Cheers! John

says...

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>>>2) Faster car behind me... lapping me. >>I generally follow the same strategy as item 1. If he's faster, >>then he can find a way around me. Again, if I decided it's the >>prudent thing to do, I'll move over, but only if I feel like it. >Here we differ hugely, if someone's lapping me I'll always let >them by as soon as it is safe and convenient to do so. Holding >up someone who's lapping you is a _very_ poor show in my book. >Someone may be able to run much faster than me in clear traffic >but be unable to get by, and meanwhile I'm holding him up and >screwing up his race. Letting someone through is only manners.

If he *is* much faster, he shouldn't have a problem getting around me, especially on the straights. How many times have *you* been lapped? How many of those times did you know for sure that you were about to be lapped? It's not *always* cut and dried, and you can't assume the person you're trying to pass knows you're the leader. Some folks have details turned way down just to run acceptably online. They may not be paying much attention to the pit board, or may not be able to notice that the guy behind them is suddenly a lap down. If you ask me, that's a lot of "what-if" scenarios to consider while you're trying to keep one of these cars on the gray part. That was just a for instance, since I'm driving one this season. Like I said, I'm not as interested in absolute realism as I am in making the sim a better online experience. Maybe if they made the blue flag wave if you're about to be lapped, and be still if there's simply a car following closely. Even that would be better than guessing all the time. -- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html IGPS (Season 2) Director http://207.104.111.77/igps2/igps2.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

#1 is right in my book. #2 is also right in my book. #3 and #4 you have to switch roles in #1 and #2. #4 is something you have to understand that that can and will happen from time to time. You MUST be prepared to make an unexpected move at all times. This is one of those things that could use that unexpected move. Also, If he/she decides to race side by side for the next two or three corners... So be it. Since he isn't going to move, You should. Meaning, either complete the pass or fall back. Just because you are faster doesn't mean you MUST pass him. Even if the second place guy is right on your tail. Let the second place guy pass and have him deal with the slower car. A second place finish is better then crashing on the last corner of the last lap. Mike Barlow

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> Hi Folks! > This question has probably been asked many times before but... > What is the best way of dealing with other cars in GPL online? > I'm not the fastest driver online by any means, not the slowest either so I > often end up mid pack... Below is a summary of my racing ethics... Do you > agree or disagree? > 1) Faster car behind me... racing for position. > I keep my line at all times, it's up to the car behind to get overtake > properly even if he is faster than me. Once he has pulled out to overtake, > when we reach the braking zone for the next corner, IF he is BESIDE me I > will brake a little early so I can slot in behind him smoothly and maybe get > a tow on the next straight. IF he is only half way up the side of me I brake > as normal but go deep, leaving enough room for us to go through side by > side. IF he hasn't made the move and isn't beside me at all I stick to my > line. > 2) Faster car behind me... lapping me. > I keep my line.... same as above except I don't contest the next corner at > all, I just let him through. By this I mean I stay on line on straights, let > him make the move, and either brake early or go wide to let him through on > the next bend as necessary. > (In case anyone is wondering, I DON'T mean that I brake early with other > cars behind me! I ONLY brake early if they are to the side and won't hit me. > If a car is right on my tail I just stay on the racing line... like I said > it's up to them to get past safely and cleanly.) > 3) Overtaking slower cars... either for position or backmarkers. > This is what made me think about what I do. I'm coming up to another car, > I'm on his tail exiting a bend, I pull off the line coming out of the bend > to overtake... If I'm clear of him before the next bend I pull back on line > and drive as normal. But what if we are side by side going into the next > bend? If he keeps his line we will crash unless I abort the move and brake > hard to let him through. By getting beside him into the next bend I have put > myself into a postion of great danger... I have the corner, but does he know > it? He can hear me beside him, so what should he do? Cut across me or go > wide so we go side by side through the bend? If he is a backmarker he should > let me through, but what if we are racing? I've said what I would do in > points 1) and 2). > 4) Overtaking evenly matched cars for position. > Combination of all of the above... The most important thing is to avoid an > accident. > The reason I don't like the idea of pulling off line to let someone pass is > the unpredictability factor. How many times have you been on someones tail > coming out of a bend, and as you pull out to overtake, they move across as > well 'to let you through'? > What does everyone think? I think it is like the way they used to drive in > 1967, letting a rival past in one corner, re-taking a couple of corners > later etc... until one of them gets far enough in front to break away.... > From SpeedFreek > (This'll put the cat amongst the pidgeons!)

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? MikeBa on the TEN network. Member of R.O.R. 1999 http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music mikeba.vcf < 1K Download

> How > many of those times did you know for sure that you were about to be > lapped? It's not *always* cut and dried, and you can't assume the person > you're trying to pass knows you're the leader. If you get a blue flag in a race then you can assume you're being lapped. Very, very occasionally you will get a warp blue when you are not being lapped but so infrequently as to be ignored. The flags are a pretty important.detail to have switched on and don't take too much fps. It is vital not to block folk who are lapping you. They do - this is exactly what it means in a race. In practice it is different and just means that there is a fatser car coming. Cheers, Paul

> 2) Faster car behind me... lapping me. > I keep my line.... same as above except I don't contest the next corner at > all, I just let him through. By this I mean I stay on line on straights, let > him make the move, and either brake early or go wide to let him through on > the next bend as necessary. I disagree here. I see letting a lapper through as soon as possible as a prime directive. It's largely because so many drivers don't get out of the way that the lappers are now used to pulling off line to overtake. It is also why so many accidents happen when the lappee actually does the right thing and moves aside. You usually get the blue well before they are right on top of your gear box which gives you time to get out of their way before you they are committed to having to switch lines to pass you. On a straight, you should pull off line at full tilt and, provided that they have not done the same, ease off the throttle to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you can run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line hugging the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose any speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe race the lapper as has often happened to me. If everyone followed this etiquette then the lapper would never deviate from his/her line and the only person to lose time would be the lappee - which is how it should be. There would also be fewer accidents since both parties would know the form. It is often the case that, through accidents and the like, that the lapper is only a little bit faster than the lappee and if lappees continue to drive their own sweet race, then the lapper can be held up for a long time or else cause an accident by attempting a crazy manoeuvre born out of frustration. It's only a pity that GPL doesn't give blue flag infringements a stop/go penalty for ignoring 4 blues as happens in modern Formula 1. I say all this from a the point of view of someone who is lapped more often than he is lapped. However it is so frustrating when people carry on through blue flags just as if it were a member of the crowd waving support. Cheers, Paul

The blue flags being waved in my general direction are usually a good indication..... Darren >>1) Faster car behind me... racing for position. >>2) Faster car behind me... lapping me. >How can you tell? For me, it just seems like another car passing me - again!

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>Usually one of those green things... :) >Eldred >__ >Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... >remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>If he *is* much faster, he shouldn't have a problem getting around me, >especially on the straights. How many times have *you* been lapped? How >many of those times did you know for sure that you were about to be >lapped? If he is much faster it will still be a heck of a lot easier to pass you if you're working with him to make it happen. Chances are if you force someone to fight for the pass they'll be agitated to get by and on with the race, not to mention thinking (rightly) that you should let them by. More than likely you'll both end up in the rails and losing a barrowload more time. As for knowing if I'm getting lapped, only once or twice and I soon realised. When you see the guy behind you showing on the pit board as a lap down then the leader is coming up on you. There are many ways to know, and in any case your comment wasn't related to recognising if the leader was behind you or not, rather to do with how to react once you've ascertained that it IS him. Again I agree, but each person view of what is important differs and in this case Papy's is the definitive one. I'd prefer an "online racing simulator" which tweaks absolute realism somewhat to make life easier. Cheers! John

On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 23:20:54 +0100, Paul Jones >They do - this is exactly what it means in a race. In practice it is different >and just means that there is a fatser car coming. Is that Mansell's car then....? :-) Cheers! John

On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 23:46:36 +0100, Paul Jones

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>having to switch lines to pass you. On a straight, you should pull off line at >full tilt and, provided that they have not done the same, ease off the throttle >to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you can >run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line hugging >the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose any >speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe >race the lapper as has often happened to me.

Hmmm, you have to let someone pass, you don't have to***up your own race at the same time. I will let someone lap me when it is mutually convenient to do so, I certainly won't back way off, swing offline or take a slower line around a corner unless it causes me no damage to do so. Slightly backing out of the throttle on a straight will be enough to let someone slingshot past, and every circuit has several positions where this is possible. No, that's not how it should be. I'm racing too, and while the leader might be a country mile ahead of second I could be involved in an "every second counts" struggle to catch the guy in front. No "rules" are necessary if both people use common-sense and have their wits about them. If another car is close behind the leader chances are he's in a fight - let him through quick and let the other guy through at the same time (if close enough) or very soon afterwards. If there's no-one behind then hold your line and help him pass somewhere appropriate where you both lose minimal time - suddenly backing off, swinging offline or whatever will take both of you out and is not to be recommended. Cheers! John

It's hard to drive behind him for more then 1 lap when you know you've got3 or 4 guys chasing _you_ and you're leading the pack ;o) Tadej

>It's hard to drive behind him for more then 1 lap when you know you've got3 >or 4 guys chasing _you_ and you're leading the pack ;o) >Tadej Yeah its even harder when there is someone in front of that car that is getting away .

John and Paul... I'd like to race with you both, because you both have some very good ideas about racing online. However, I'd have to concur with John on the point of letting someone past. If myself and a faster (or slower) car are relatively similar in corner speed, I will press on until a straight or clear braking zone. If I want to let someone past and they are clearly faster and are *right* on me, I will often just lift ever-so-slightly about 50 meters before my real braking marker. That usually prods them into an outbraking pass without slowing so quick they plow into me. Then I will NOT fight them into the corner. Mind you: this is in practice, or if I am lapped for any reason. If it's for position, the better earn it: no freebies. If I want to pass, I will try to get as good a run as possible onto a straight leading to a clear braking zone. Then I try to make the pass as solid as possible under braking, while still leaving me in control *for the inside lane.* No slide jobs if I can help it. That gives someone enough track to run on and not go off. This all needs to take place with someone who understands they are being passed by a faster car. If not, well, you know the possible result... if they chop down hard or slow unexpectedly in a strange place, sometimes there is nothing you can do... :-( --Dave

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> On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 23:46:36 +0100, Paul Jones > >having to switch lines to pass you. On a straight, you should pull off line at > >full tilt and, provided that they have not done the same, ease off the throttle > >to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you can > >run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line hugging > >the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose any > >speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe > >race the lapper as has often happened to me. > Hmmm, you have to let someone pass, you don't have to***up your > own race at the same time. > I will let someone lap me when it is mutually convenient to do so, I > certainly won't back way off, swing offline or take a slower line > around a corner unless it causes me no damage to do so. Slightly > backing out of the throttle on a straight will be enough to let > someone slingshot past, and every circuit has several positions where > this is possible. > >If everyone followed this etiquette then the lapper would never deviate from > >his/her line and the only person to lose time would be the lappee - which is how > >it should be. > No, that's not how it should be. I'm racing too, and while the leader > might be a country mile ahead of second I could be involved in an > "every second counts" struggle to catch the guy in front. No "rules" > are necessary if both people use common-sense and have their wits > about them. If another car is close behind the leader chances are he's > in a fight - let him through quick and let the other guy through at > the same time (if close enough) or very soon afterwards. If there's > no-one behind then hold your line and help him pass somewhere > appropriate where you both lose minimal time - suddenly backing off, > swinging offline or whatever will take both of you out and is not to > be recommended. > Cheers! > John

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Yes, I agree. I think it's every driver's responsibility to know which position they're in, and to know the time difference to the driver infront and to the driver behind. If you're driving 5sec infront of driver behind you, then if suddenly a car shows up your gearbox and you're shown a blue flag, you either went wide on the green stuff and recovered just infront of the driver to which you had 5sec gap or you are being lapped. It's that simple. Also, it's nice if the passed driver would pick his line and stick to it. I died once in Monza while leading the race when I was trying to outbrake the backmarker into Parabolica on the inside.I picked the inner line for the corner and suddenly, about a second before the braking point the driver infront decided to veer infront of me, thus braking on the same portion of the track. At first I was confused and I thought it was a warp or something, just to be convinced few moments later that that wasn't warping at all :o) There should be some sort of sim-racing school or something that would hand out driver's licenses, something like Sim-FIA ;o) It's nice to race in league races and NTT championship, drivers there know what to do in most cases ... -=B-) Not to mention the 200 heat beat in the 1st lap in those races...uff... Cheers, Tadej

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> >If he *is* much faster, he shouldn't have a problem getting around me, > >especially on the straights. How many times have *you* been lapped? How > >many of those times did you know for sure that you were about to be > >lapped? > If he is much faster it will still be a heck of a lot easier to pass > you if you're working with him to make it happen. Chances are if you > force someone to fight for the pass they'll be agitated to get by and > on with the race, not to mention thinking (rightly) that you should > let them by. More than likely you'll both end up in the rails and > losing a barrowload more time. > As for knowing if I'm getting lapped, only once or twice and I soon > realised. When you see the guy behind you showing on the pit board as > a lap down then the leader is coming up on you. There are many ways to > know, and in any case your comment wasn't related to recognising if > the leader was behind you or not, rather to do with how to react once > you've ascertained that it IS him. > >Like I said, I'm not as interested in absolute realism as I am in making > >the sim a better online experience. Maybe if they made the blue flag > >wave if you're about to be lapped, and be still if there's simply a car > >following closely. Even that would be better than guessing all the time. > Again I agree, but each person view of what is important differs and > in this case Papy's is the definitive one. I'd prefer an "online > racing simulator" which tweaks absolute realism somewhat to make life > easier. > Cheers! > John

Half the incidents I'm involved in while lapping a car online go something like this: Come up behind a car that is several seconds slower a lap - he won't back off on the straights. After following for a short while, I set up a perfect pass (enter turn high, cut down low and come under him on the exit with a full head of steam). Half the time, the lapper will get too hot on the gas coming out of the turn trying to race me, and will oversteer straight down into me. Seems like too many people aren't able to consider different strategies in a passing situation because they don't have basic car control skills to begin with. -- ------------------------------------------------------ IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html ------------------------------------------------------

While I agree with you in that a "lappee" should NEVER try to race the overtaking driver, I disagree about moving over for the faster car. I'd much rather pass a car that stays to the racing line than one that unexpectedly decides to "do me a favor" and pulls off line and slows... There's no way humanly possible to predict just when someone will move over, I'd much rather they hold to their line and let ME decide when to go around. By the same token, when I'm being lapped, I'll hold to the line, and when the overtaker gets close I'll let him out accelerate me out of a corner. I lose minimal time that way, and the overtaker gets a clean pass on a straight. Trips

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> I disagree here. I see letting a lapper through as soon as possible as a prime > directive. It's largely because so many drivers don't get out of the way that > the lappers are now used to pulling off line to overtake. It is also why so many > accidents happen when the lappee actually does the right thing and moves aside. > You usually get the blue well before they are right on top of your gear box > which gives you time to get out of their way before you they are committed to > having to switch lines to pass you. On a straight, you should pull off line at > full tilt and, provided that they have not done the same, ease off the throttle > to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you can > run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line hugging > the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose any > speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe > race the lapper as has often happened to me. > If everyone followed this etiquette then the lapper would never deviate from > his/her line and the only person to lose time would be the lappee - which is how > it should be. There would also be fewer accidents since both parties would know > the form. > It is often the case that, through accidents and the like, that the lapper is > only a little bit faster than the lappee and if lappees continue to drive their > own sweet race, then the lapper can be held up for a long time or else cause an > accident by attempting a crazy manoeuvre born out of frustration. It's only a > pity that GPL doesn't give blue flag infringements a stop/go penalty for > ignoring 4 blues as happens in modern Formula 1. > I say all this from a the point of view of someone who is lapped more often than > he is lapped. However it is so frustrating when people carry on through blue > flags just as if it were a member of the crowd waving support. > Cheers, > Paul

<snip> % > >It would be REALLY nice if we only got a blue flag (or even a blue flag % > >with a yellow stripe) if the car behind us is about to lap us. % > >Otherwise, we shouldn't see a blue flag at all (just my opinion). % > % > It would be easier, but that's the way it was in '67. % Like I said, I'm not as interested in absolute realism as I am in making % the sim a better online experience. Maybe if they made the blue flag % wave if you're about to be lapped, and be still if there's simply a car % following closely. Even that would be better than guessing all the time. In GPL under race conditions you are always presented a blue flag if you are about to be lapped. However, the car has to be close enough to you and there has to be a marshall at that part of the track. During practice you are presented a blue flag anytime a car is close enough to you to be gaining. The only time during a race that you may see a blue flag when you are not about to be lapped is when someone is crossing the S/F on their final lap. It seems to be a minor bug in GPL that will have all the marshalls waving flags when the checkered is being shown. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% Think everyone covered your points well. However, one of the biggest things % I feel that people need to pay attention to is the starts. This is the one % time that everyone is bunched up and right on top of each other. Give room % and do NOT try and win the race on the first corner and even the first lap. % Get in position and give the tires time to warm up. This is especially % important considering the horrid job that GPL does at collision detection % and the online collision physics (i.e. I was midpack the other night in a % Cov only WG race....race started, the driver behind me decided to blast his % way to the front or something and ran into me at like 20 to 25 mph. Even % this slow speed of a crash sent me at least 50 feet in the air.) The rule in racing is to drive with your vision focused beyond where you are going. This is even more important when starting. Too many people are concentrating on passing the car in front of them and not watching what is happening further up the grid. I've been rear-ended or side-swiped way too many times on the starts because I am letting off slightly because of an incident (or an impending one) up ahead. The same is true under normal racing conditions. Most of the accidents that I have been involved in (when not of my own accord) are when I am either slowing because of yellow flag conditions or when I am approaching slower traffic. You can't race properly if you are only concentrating on the car or spot directly ahead of you. Racing is just like air-combat -- situational awareness! -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Trips, The suggestion about out-accelerating is a GREAT one... very easily done and with minimal time loss, like you say. --Dave

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> While I agree with you in that a "lappee" should NEVER try to race the overtaking > driver, I disagree about moving over for the faster car. > I'd much rather pass a car that stays to the racing line than one that unexpectedly > decides to "do me a favor" and pulls off line and slows... There's no way humanly > possible to predict just when someone will move over, I'd much rather they hold to > their line and let ME decide when to go around. > By the same token, when I'm being lapped, I'll hold to the line, and when the > overtaker gets close I'll let him out accelerate me out of a corner. I lose minimal > time that way, and the overtaker gets a clean pass on a straight. > Trips > > I disagree here. I see letting a lapper through as soon as possible as a prime > > directive. It's largely because so many drivers don't get out of the way that > > the lappers are now used to pulling off line to overtake. It is also why so many > > accidents happen when the lappee actually does the right thing and moves aside. > > You usually get the blue well before they are right on top of your gear box > > which gives you time to get out of their way before you they are committed to > > having to switch lines to pass you. On a straight, you should pull off line at > > full tilt and, provided that they have not done the same, ease off the throttle > > to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you can > > run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line hugging > > the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose any > > speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe > > race the lapper as has often happened to me. > > If everyone followed this etiquette then the lapper would never deviate from > > his/her line and the only person to lose time would be the lappee - which is how > > it should be. There would also be fewer accidents since both parties would know > > the form. > > It is often the case that, through accidents and the like, that the lapper is > > only a little bit faster than the lappee and if lappees continue to drive their > > own sweet race, then the lapper can be held up for a long time or else cause an > > accident by attempting a crazy manoeuvre born out of frustration. It's only a > > pity that GPL doesn't give blue flag infringements a stop/go penalty for > > ignoring 4 blues as happens in modern Formula 1. > > I say all this from a the point of view of someone who is lapped more often than > > he is lapped. However it is so frustrating when people carry on through blue > > flags just as if it were a member of the crowd waving support. > > Cheers, > > Paul

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Not a bug Michael. A traditional salute by all marshalls at the end of a race Mark

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>flag when you are not about to be lapped is when someone is crossing the >S/F on their final lap. It seems to be a minor bug in GPL that will >have all the marshalls waving flags when the checkered is being shown. >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> Hi Folks! > This question has probably been asked many times before but... > What is the best way of dealing with other cars in GPL online? > I'm not the fastest driver online by any means, not the slowest either so I > often end up mid pack... Below is a summary of my racing ethics... Do you > agree or disagree? > 1) Faster car behind me... racing for position. > I keep my line at all times, it's up to the car behind to get overtake > properly even if he is faster than me. Once he has pulled out to overtake, > when we reach the braking zone for the next corner, IF he is BESIDE me I > will brake a little early so I can slot in behind him smoothly and maybe get > a tow on the next straight. IF he is only half way up the side of me I brake > as normal but go deep, leaving enough room for us to go through side by > side. IF he hasn't made the move and isn't beside me at all I stick to my > line.

I agree, but of fear to be braked into I brake as late as possible if someone is behind me, often going a bit wide, it's not certain they know that a two car length's time difference at 300 kph is only two third of a car length at 100 kph :o). I never block... I think :o)... I once had a lead over Kari Ikonnen at Rouen where he afterwards praised my defensive driving... I hope I wasn't blocking :o), cause I dont think that's fair. I believe that if you get good at blocking the passing driver has to be several seconds faster per lap too be able to overtake you and I dont think that is very fair. Generally if a driver approaches from behind and I notice he's gaining very fast on me, I dont give him any problems passing me. This is for position, but if he's lapping me, bound to happen sometime :o), I think I will do one of two things; before a long straight I make my exit less good than normal making it possible for him to easy slipstream me, once he changes line on the straight, I ease off if necessary to let him by safely, for shorter straights I exit the turn keeping the inside letting the other driver pass on the outside. We have to keep in mind that warping is a big factor here and because of it a lapping car may not be able to get very close, so give the driver a break, will you :o). Winning is not that important... yet :o). /Christer -- http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).

There will always be disagreements and grey areas when we discuss this topic. The only constructive way that would resolve this issue IMO would involve a patch. Assign two hot keys to text messages. I.E. Pass left and Pass right. So simple I must be a genius :-) Mark >While I agree with you in that a "lappee" should NEVER try to race the overtaking >driver, I disagree about moving over for the faster car. >I'd much rather pass a car that stays to the racing line than one that unexpectedly >decides to "do me a favor" and pulls off line and slows... There's no way humanly >possible to predict just when someone will move over, I'd much rather they hold to >their line and let ME decide when to go around. >By the same token, when I'm being lapped, I'll hold to the line, and when the >overtaker gets close I'll let him out accelerate me out of a corner. I lose minimal

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>time that way, and the overtaker gets a clean pass on a straight. >Trips >> I disagree here. I see letting a lapper through as soon as possible as a

prime >> directive. It's largely because so many drivers don't get out of the way that >> the lappers are now used to pulling off line to overtake. It is also why so many >> accidents happen when the lappee actually does the right thing and moves aside. >> You usually get the blue well before they are right on top of your gear box >> which gives you time to get out of their way before you they are committed to >> having to switch lines to pass you. On a straight, you should pull off line at >> full tilt and, provided that they have not done the same, ease off the throttle >> to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you can >> run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line hugging >> the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose any >> speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe >> race the lapper as has often happened to me. >> If everyone followed this etiquette then the lapper would never deviate from >> his/her line and the only person to lose time would be the lappee - which is how >> it should be. There would also be fewer accidents since both parties would know >> the form. >> It is often the case that, through accidents and the like, that the lapper is >> only a little bit faster than the lappee and if lappees continue to drive their >> own sweet race, then the lapper can be held up for a long time or else cause an >> accident by attempting a crazy manoeuvre born out of frustration. It's only a >> pity that GPL doesn't give blue flag infringements a stop/go penalty for >> ignoring 4 blues as happens in modern Formula 1. >> I say all this from a the point of view of someone who is lapped more often than >> he is lapped. However it is so frustrating when people carry on through blue >> flags just as if it were a member of the crowd waving support. >> Cheers, >> Paul

On Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:44:24 +0200, Tadej Krevh >infront of driver behind you, then if suddenly a car shows up your gearbox and >you're shown a blue flag, you either went wide on the green stuff and >recovered just infront of the driver to which you had 5sec gap or you are >being lapped. It's that simple. Sometimes it also means that George Sandman was one of the drivers involved in that first turn pile-up! Frank Francois Dubuc, Simulator ***world, [link lost in import: /***world/]

So you're gaining on me down the front straight at Monza... approaching Curva Grande, you see "Pass Right" flash on screen. How do you determine if I sent that, or if someone else is telling the car behind HIM to pass at some other portion of the track? Trips > There will always be disagreements and grey areas when we discuss this > topic. The only constructive way that would resolve this issue IMO would > involve a patch. Assign two hot keys to text messages. I.E. Pass left and > Pass right. So simple I must be a genius :-)

Yes and what about this scenario. You have 3 people in line. The guy in front just blew up, the guy 2nd is being lapped by the guy 3rd in line. The guy in 2nd sees a pass right and a pass left. Which one goes to the guy saying to PASS him since he blew up, and which one sent the message saying he was going to pass the guy 2nd in line on a certain side? You get into all of these debates which would be tough to figure out the right way to work it all. Jesse |So you're gaining on me down the front straight at Monza... approaching Curva |Grande, you see "Pass Right" flash on screen. How do you determine if I sent |that, or if someone else is telling the car behind HIM to pass at some other

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|portion of the track? | |Trips | | |> There will always be disagreements and grey areas when we discuss this |> topic. The only constructive way that would resolve this issue IMO would |> involve a patch. Assign two hot keys to text messages. I.E. Pass left and |> Pass right. So simple I must be a genius :-) |

> I agree, but of fear to be braked into I brake as late as possible if someone is > behind me, often going a bit wide, it's not certain they know that a two car > length's time difference at 300 kph is only two third of a car length at 100 kph > :o). I never block... I think :o)... I once had a lead over Kari Ikonnen at > Rouen where he afterwards praised my defensive driving... I hope I wasn't > blocking :o), cause I dont think that's fair. I believe that if you get good at > blocking the passing driver has to be several seconds faster per lap too be able > to overtake you and I dont think that is very fair. To me, blocking is moving in front of someone on a straight. In turns, the driver in front can choose any line he wishes and it can not be considered blocking. Of course I am flexible in VROC races, since there's always some bozo behind me that thinks he somehow deserves better than he was in qualifying and subsequently wants to take over the whole field in the first lap. -- Anssi Lehtinen

I think that right now in F1 (not sure) you can block in a straight, but you can only change your position once, I mean you can't go left right left right all the straight ... I use this for GP2 racing with my friends McKafre De La Rosa

>The blue flags being waved in my general direction are usually a good >indication..... >Darren But you get the blue flag whether you're being lapped or just being passed for position. So, you STILL don't know who the pursuing car is... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you >can >run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line >hugging >the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose >any >speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe >race the lapper as has often happened to me.

Move OFF the track?!? That sounds like arrogance... Sorry, but I'm not going to go to this extreme... You can get by as soon as I can SAFELY move over. I'm not trying to hold anybody up, but I'm NOT going to risk sliding into a wall (or whatever) just so you can fly by without adjusting your line a BIT. Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>If I want to let someone past and they are clearly faster and are >*right* on me, I will often just lift ever-so-slightly about 50 meters >before my real braking marker. That usually prods them into an >outbraking pass without slowing so quick they plow into me. Then I will >NOT fight them into the corner. The above is, for me, a perfect example of why "rules" about lapping will never work - it is such an organic, ever-changing scenario that any rules would simply become massively complex and unwieldy. The above scenario works well when the driver behind you is pretty competent, but quite often I find myself in the same situation and braking absolutely as late as I possibly can, because I know from the demeanour of the driver behind that they're going to try a massive outbraking maneouvre, outbrake me AND themselves and slide both of us off the track - certainly a lift would take them totally by surprise. How to lap and be lapped depends upon the urgency of lapper and "lappee", ability and perceived ability of each, track location, cars involved etc etc etc - way too complex to pin down to rules beyond rudimentary guidelines. Precisely. Anyone who doesn't back off in such a situation and let the lapping car through is well out of order in my estimation. Not letting a lapping car through is a pretty poor show, but actively racing them and slamming the door on a well-communicated passing move is about the cardinal sin as far as racing is concerned (well, except pushing your team-mate into the weeds...!). The worst part is that in such a situation the lapped car will learn relatively little from the experience of taking both cars out - okay, he'll lose time, but then he had far less to lose anyway. Cheers! John

% >The blue flags being waved in my general direction are usually a good % >indication..... % > % But you get the blue flag whether you're being lapped or just being passed for % position. So, you STILL don't know who the pursuing car is... Only under "practice" sessions. During the race you are only presented a blue flag if you are being closely pursued by a car that is going to lap you. (There are very rare occasions, due to a clock smash, where you may be presented a bogus blue flag while racing). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> >1) Faster car behind me... racing for position. > >2) Faster car behind me... lapping me. > How can you tell? During a race, if the corner marshall is waving a blue flag, you are about to be lapped. Otherwise, the car behind is racing you for position. Dave Ewing

Of course, just like anything else, common sense would prevail. You wouldn't be able to use this idea at the first corner of the start of a race either. I was suggesting a method for communicating intentions where a simple one to one scenario was present. Maybe I never made that absolutely clear or maybe some people need it spelling out to them :-) Mark >Yes and what about this scenario. You have 3 people in line. The guy in >front just blew up, the guy 2nd is being lapped by the guy 3rd in line. The

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>guy in 2nd sees a pass right and a pass left. Which one goes to the guy >saying to PASS him since he blew up, and which one sent the message saying >he was going to pass the guy 2nd in line on a certain side? You get into >all of these debates which would be tough to figure out the right way to >work it all. >Jesse >|So you're gaining on me down the front straight at Monza... approaching >Curva >|Grande, you see "Pass Right" flash on screen. How do you determine if I >sent >|that, or if someone else is telling the car behind HIM to pass at some >other >|portion of the track? >| >|Trips >| >| >|> There will always be disagreements and grey areas when we discuss this >|> topic. The only constructive way that would resolve this issue IMO would >|> involve a patch. Assign two hot keys to text messages. I.E. Pass left

and >|> Pass right. So simple I must be a genius :-) >|

Well, I think it's good Mark, that we're searching for ways to improve it... this is the best place to test ideas because, as you know, we show NO mercy! :-) Seriously, I think judgment, good or bad, is all we can rely on. As nice as it would be to have an easy solution, some of us VROCers will always be predictable and easy to deal with, and some of us will be... well, a bit dodgy. It is racing, after all, and accidents will happen. (hey, I sound like Elvis Costello, here) I think the best thing for people to do is not weave and block down the straights... everything else will sort itself out. --dave

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> Of course, just like anything else, common sense would prevail. You > wouldn't be able to use this idea at the first corner of the start of a race > either. I was suggesting a method for communicating intentions where a > simple one to one scenario was present. Maybe I never made that absolutely > clear or maybe some people need it spelling out to them :-) > Mark > >Yes and what about this scenario. You have 3 people in line. The guy in > >front just blew up, the guy 2nd is being lapped by the guy 3rd in line. > The > >guy in 2nd sees a pass right and a pass left. Which one goes to the guy > >saying to PASS him since he blew up, and which one sent the message saying > >he was going to pass the guy 2nd in line on a certain side? You get into > >all of these debates which would be tough to figure out the right way to > >work it all. > >Jesse > >|So you're gaining on me down the front straight at Monza... approaching > >Curva > >|Grande, you see "Pass Right" flash on screen. How do you determine if I > >sent > >|that, or if someone else is telling the car behind HIM to pass at some > >other > >|portion of the track? > >| > >|Trips > >| > >| > >|> There will always be disagreements and grey areas when we discuss this > >|> topic. The only constructive way that would resolve this issue IMO would > >|> involve a patch. Assign two hot keys to text messages. I.E. Pass left > and > >|> Pass right. So simple I must be a genius :-) > >|

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

You speak the truth Anssi... I agree on all points. --Dave

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> To me, blocking is moving in front of someone on a straight. In turns, the > driver in front can choose any line he wishes and it can not be considered > blocking. Of course I am flexible in VROC races, since there's always some > bozo behind me that thinks he somehow deserves better than he was in > qualifying and subsequently wants to take over the whole field in the > first lap. > -- > Anssi Lehtinen

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

>So you're gaining on me down the front straight at Monza... approaching Curva >Grande, you see "Pass Right" flash on screen. How do you determine if I sent >that, or if someone else is telling the car behind HIM to pass at some other >portion of the track? Easy - we need big "Kenny Everett" hands that pop out each side of the car where you should pass - "I BELIEVE, you should pass on the right brother!" :-) Cheers! John

Remember you'd also see the initials and car number of the driver who sent the message. Eric

Which is fine, but remember you are trying to read the message and see what's happening in front of you (at a very rapid pace) all at the same time.... Reactions are what will rule in a situation like this, not messages. My 2 cents --Dave

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> Remember you'd also see the initials and car number of the driver who > sent the message. > Eric > > So you're gaining on me down the front straight at Monza... > approaching Curva > > Grande, you see "Pass Right" flash on screen. How do you determine > if I sent > > that, or if someone else is telling the car behind HIM to pass at > some other > > portion of the track?

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Well you still have the initials, and with the car type and helmet color visible it's usually not too hard to figure out if the message came from the driver in front of you or not. Eric

Yes I would, but when I'm behind a car I can't see its number... Trips

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> Remember you'd also see the initials and car number of the driver who > sent the message. > Eric > > So you're gaining on me down the front straight at Monza... > approaching Curva > > Grande, you see "Pass Right" flash on screen. How do you determine > if I sent > > that, or if someone else is telling the car behind HIM to pass at > some other > > portion of the track?

This is great! The best part, IMO, is that it mirrors real life perfectly. Any of you who've diced in race traffic for real know that you have the same thoughts, emotions, and opinions then! So when I get aggravated that somebody wants to contest going a lap down, or pulls other some hare-brained stunt, I just chalk it up to realism. And having spent my share of time in non-virtual plaster from such escapades in the flesh, I'm glad it's not TOO real! But as for guidelines, I don't think we'll be any better at ironing this issue out than they've been in real life. Passing situations are so dynamic that the moment always takes precedence over the rule. So I keep it simple. If I'm overtaking, I TRY to do it with the minimum change in my driving line and pace, at a spot that leaves the most room for error. Likewise for being overtaken, which usually translates into softpedalling just a touch and EASING off-line on a straight, as that disrupts my own laptime the least. I try not to force anyone to pass mid-corner or under heavy braking, as that's most likely to cause a crash which may take ME out as well. Bottom line; that's just racing! Steve B. remove "edy" from address for email

the mirrors in GPL are the best mirrors in any SIm. However, what they lak in is the.. Lean over a bit to see the blind spot, or lean over to see another section of the track. Someone posted here that they catch them selves doing just that, leaning over to see what's coming before they exit the pits. I had to laugh, I do the same thing. Only I go further by leaning to see more while I'm racing. Although having mirrors setup to reflect what's behind you as if you were looking at the real thing, I wish Racing Sim programers would widen the mirror a bit more so we wouldn't have to guess where the next guy was.

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> This is great! The best part, IMO, is that it mirrors real life perfectly. > Any of you who've diced in race traffic for real know that you have the same > thoughts, emotions, and opinions then! So when I get aggravated that somebody > wants to contest going a lap down, or pulls other some hare-brained stunt, I > just chalk it up to realism. And having spent my share of time in non-virtual > plaster from such escapades in the flesh, I'm glad it's not TOO real! > But as for guidelines, I don't think we'll be any better at ironing this issue > out than they've been in real life. Passing situations are so dynamic that the > moment always takes precedence over the rule. So I keep it simple. If I'm > overtaking, I TRY to do it with the minimum change in my driving line and pace, > at a spot that leaves the most room for error. Likewise for being overtaken, > which usually translates into softpedalling just a touch and EASING off-line on > a straight, as that disrupts my own laptime the least. I try not to force > anyone to pass mid-corner or under heavy braking, as that's most likely to > cause a crash which may take ME out as well. > Bottom line; that's just racing! > Steve B. > remove "edy" from address for email

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? MikeBa on the TEN network. Member of R.O.R. 1999 http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music mikeba.vcf < 1K Download

Ah.. All those Lotus with Gold helmets ? ;-) But somehow, in a 20car race, sometimes it's hard to remember every initials and match them with the correct helmet color/car type, especially when you only see the race board for 3-4seconds one time per lap, with laps that can be very long with those GPL tracks. Maybe Im a little spoiled by the F2 windows on the NROS 8) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

_Ditto I read as well as I type, and worse than I drive. Flex

Can someone make me a Kenny Everett Hands patch , but please dont include Sidney :) -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592 >Easy - we need big "Kenny Everett" hands that pop out each side of the >car where you should pass - "I BELIEVE, you should pass on the right >brother!" :-) >Cheers! >John

I always run my mirrors on cars-only; it doesn't look as spiffy, but it lets me pick out cars behind me MUCH better. You can even see through walls! They could be a bit wider, though; it's true. Steve B. >I wish Racing Sim programers would widen the mirror a >bit more so we wouldn't have to guess where the next guy was. remove "edy" from address for email

Not true. I was leading and being chased and got a waved blue flag. Must have something to do with the lap counter being off once in a while.

You can tell which car the message came from easily, it's the one that just drove off the road because he was trying to type a message. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

I have to disagree here again :o) Do you really expect the driver infront of you, exiting the corner slower then he used to do ? Plus, if you slow down before the straight, you loose a lot more time comparing to lapper out-brake you. It's better to lift slightly on the straight or lifting 1sec before the braking zone. I think this is the least amount of danger for both drivers. Just my $0.02, Tadej

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> Trips, > The suggestion about out-accelerating is a GREAT one... very easily done > and with minimal time loss, like you say. > --Dave > > While I agree with you in that a "lappee" should NEVER try to race the overtaking > > driver, I disagree about moving over for the faster car. > > I'd much rather pass a car that stays to the racing line than one that unexpectedly > > decides to "do me a favor" and pulls off line and slows... There's no way humanly > > possible to predict just when someone will move over, I'd much rather they hold to > > their line and let ME decide when to go around. > > By the same token, when I'm being lapped, I'll hold to the line, and when the > > overtaker gets close I'll let him out accelerate me out of a corner. I lose minimal > > time that way, and the overtaker gets a clean pass on a straight. > > Trips > > > I disagree here. I see letting a lapper through as soon as possible as a prime > > > directive. It's largely because so many drivers don't get out of the way that > > > the lappers are now used to pulling off line to overtake. It is also why so many > > > accidents happen when the lappee actually does the right thing and moves aside. > > > You usually get the blue well before they are right on top of your gear box > > > which gives you time to get out of their way before you they are committed to > > > having to switch lines to pass you. On a straight, you should pull off line at > > > full tilt and, provided that they have not done the same, ease off the throttle > > > to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you can > > > run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line hugging > > > the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose any > > > speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe > > > race the lapper as has often happened to me. > > > If everyone followed this etiquette then the lapper would never deviate from > > > his/her line and the only person to lose time would be the lappee - which is how > > > it should be. There would also be fewer accidents since both parties would know > > > the form. > > > It is often the case that, through accidents and the like, that the lapper is > > > only a little bit faster than the lappee and if lappees continue to drive their > > > own sweet race, then the lapper can be held up for a long time or else cause an > > > accident by attempting a crazy manoeuvre born out of frustration. It's only a > > > pity that GPL doesn't give blue flag infringements a stop/go penalty for > > > ignoring 4 blues as happens in modern Formula 1. > > > I say all this from a the point of view of someone who is lapped more often than > > > he is lapped. However it is so frustrating when people carry on through blue > > > flags just as if it were a member of the crowd waving support. > > > Cheers, > > > Paul > -- > Dave Schwabe > The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site > http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

On Thu, 08 Apr 1999 12:03:37 +0200, Tadej Krevh

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>I have to disagree here again :o) >Do you really expect the driver infront of you, exiting the corner slower then he used to >do ? >Plus, if you slow down before the straight, you loose a lot more time comparing to lapper >out-brake you. >It's better to lift slightly on the straight or lifting 1sec before the braking zone. >I think this is the least amount of danger for both drivers.

There is no right or wrong for this issue. In the situation you describe above (lifting before braking zone) some drivers may already be panicking thinking you're not going to let them through. They go too deep, out of control and take you off. Either you're out of the race or lose WAY more time than a simple exit lift would cost. Each situation has to be decided on its own merits. Cheers! John

Yep, me too steve... works well, especially at the glen. --Dave

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> I always run my mirrors on cars-only; it doesn't look as spiffy, but it lets me > pick out cars behind me MUCH better. You can even see through walls! They > could be a bit wider, though; it's true. > Steve B. > >I wish Racing Sim programers would widen the mirror a > >bit more so we wouldn't have to guess where the next guy was. > remove "edy" from address for email

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Hehe.. my point exactly. There is too much going on in too quick of a timespan to search for damn keys (even if you have a phrase mapped to a key or button). -_Dave

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> >Well you still have the initials, and with the car type and helmet > >color visible it's usually not too hard to figure out if the message > >came from the driver in front of you or not. > You can tell which car the message came from easily, it's the one that just > drove off the road because he was trying to type a message. > Don McCorkle > Libertarian Motorsports

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Another nugget of wisdom from JW... He's right in saying that each situation has to be taken as it comes... no matter how clear we want to be and attempt to set overtaking *rules*, the split second decisions made when passing someone will rule ultimately. The hints for overtaking are nice, but here is MY rule for overtaking: With warps and unknown drivers, take each situation as a new one, and give the other guy a piece of track to race on, whether you are passing or being passed! :-) --Dave

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> On Thu, 08 Apr 1999 12:03:37 +0200, Tadej Krevh > >I have to disagree here again :o) > >Do you really expect the driver infront of you, exiting the corner slower then he used to > >do ? > >Plus, if you slow down before the straight, you loose a lot more time comparing to lapper > >out-brake you. > >It's better to lift slightly on the straight or lifting 1sec before the braking zone. > >I think this is the least amount of danger for both drivers. > There is no right or wrong for this issue. In the situation you > describe above (lifting before braking zone) some drivers may already > be panicking thinking you're not going to let them through. They go > too deep, out of control and take you off. Either you're out of the > race or lose WAY more time than a simple exit lift would cost. > Each situation has to be decided on its own merits. > Cheers! > John

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

You again!!... I thought we were finally in agreement! Guess I was wrong. :-) I think I need to clarify a bit... Trips (and correct me if I was wrong) was saying that as an option to let FASTER drivers through, *not* as a faster driver trying to pass a slower one. So all you really have to do it accelerate out of the corner as hard as normal, shift to the next gear, then do a short-shift. We are just talking about a very, very momentary lift or interruption in acceleration. Nothing big, but enough to let the guy on your gearbox get a tiny run on you. Really just a slight burp of the throttle. Then he pulls out, and it's done. If you time it right, you can even get in his tow to gain that time back! :-) See it takes little time after all! :-) --dave

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> I have to disagree here again :o) > Do you really expect the driver infront of you, exiting the corner slower then he used to > do ? > Plus, if you slow down before the straight, you loose a lot more time comparing to lapper > out-brake > you. > It's better to lift slightly on the straight or lifting 1sec before the braking zone. > I think this is the least amount of danger for both drivers. > Just my $0.02, > Tadej > > Trips, > > The suggestion about out-accelerating is a GREAT one... very easily done > > and with minimal time loss, like you say. > > --Dave > > > While I agree with you in that a "lappee" should NEVER try to race the overtaking > > > driver, I disagree about moving over for the faster car. > > > I'd much rather pass a car that stays to the racing line than one that unexpectedly > > > decides to "do me a favor" and pulls off line and slows... There's no way humanly > > > possible to predict just when someone will move over, I'd much rather they hold to > > > their line and let ME decide when to go around. > > > By the same token, when I'm being lapped, I'll hold to the line, and when the > > > overtaker gets close I'll let him out accelerate me out of a corner. I lose minimal > > > time that way, and the overtaker gets a clean pass on a straight. > > > Trips > > > > I disagree here. I see letting a lapper through as soon as possible as a prime > > > > directive. It's largely because so many drivers don't get out of the way that > > > > the lappers are now used to pulling off line to overtake. It is also why so many > > > > accidents happen when the lappee actually does the right thing and moves aside. > > > > You usually get the blue well before they are right on top of your gear box > > > > which gives you time to get out of their way before you they are committed to > > > > having to switch lines to pass you. On a straight, you should pull off line at > > > > full tilt and, provided that they have not done the same, ease off the throttle > > > > to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you can > > > > run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line hugging > > > > the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose any > > > > speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe > > > > race the lapper as has often happened to me. > > > > If everyone followed this etiquette then the lapper would never deviate from > > > > his/her line and the only person to lose time would be the lappee - which is how > > > > it should be. There would also be fewer accidents since both parties would know > > > > the form. > > > > It is often the case that, through accidents and the like, that the lapper is > > > > only a little bit faster than the lappee and if lappees continue to drive their > > > > own sweet race, then the lapper can be held up for a long time or else cause an > > > > accident by attempting a crazy manoeuvre born out of frustration. It's only a > > > > pity that GPL doesn't give blue flag infringements a stop/go penalty for > > > > ignoring 4 blues as happens in modern Formula 1. > > > > I say all this from a the point of view of someone who is lapped more often than > > > > he is lapped. However it is so frustrating when people carry on through blue > > > > flags just as if it were a member of the crowd waving support. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Paul > > -- > > Dave Schwabe > > The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site > > http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

>There is no right or wrong for this issue. In the situation you >describe above (lifting before braking zone) some drivers may already >be panicking thinking you're not going to let them through. They go >too deep, out of control and take you off. Either you're out of the >race or lose WAY more time than a simple exit lift would cost. That's exactly what happened to me yesterday in the NTT race. I thought taking the inside line from the last turn and lifting early before T1 at Zandvoort was a good idea, but the other driver took it as if I was racing him on the straight so he outbraked himself (maybe it also has to do with me being between him and P1 for almost a full lap). You see it's different with every driver so there's no one solution to these problems. You have to learn how to drive with different people, and most of all learn from your mistakes. Frank Francois Dubuc, Simulator ***world, [link lost in import: /***world/]

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> You again!!... I thought we were finally in agreement! Guess I was > wrong. :-) > I think I need to clarify a bit... Trips (and correct me if I was wrong) > was saying that as an option to let FASTER drivers through, *not* as a > faster driver trying to pass a slower one. > So all you really have to do it accelerate out of the corner as hard as > normal, shift to the next gear, then do a short-shift. We are just > talking about a very, very momentary lift or interruption in > acceleration. Nothing big, but enough to let the guy on your gearbox get > a tiny run on you. Really just a slight burp of the throttle.

Pretty much exactly what I meant. Exiting the corner, if he's close enough that I think he'll be able to make the pass in the available straight, I'll ease up to make it that much easier for him. I still stay to the line, The faster car should be the one to go around in most instances for safety reasons. The last thing I want to do is move over for him just as he's committing to going around. As soon as I see him move to go around, I ease off the gas. I get enough TY's online to think that folks appreciate the gesture. And I'm rarely if ever involved in incidents with cars passing me. Trips (D_Bell on VROC)

> Well you still have the initials, and with the car type and helmet > color visible it's usually not too hard to figure out if the message > came from the driver in front of you or not. Here's a suggestion... If' you've ever played WarBirds online, you'll have seen how each airplane has the pilot's 6 character callsign displayed above the plane. While I'd hate to see that sort of thing full time in GPL, it might be useful to have a key that flashes that info above the cars on screen for a moment... Just so if I'm in doubt about who I'm gaining on or who's gaining on me, i could hit the key and know. Not exactly realistic, but still helpful online... Trips

> I think that right now in F1 (not sure) you can block in a straight, but > you can only change your position once, I mean you can't go left right left > right all the straight ... Although Damon Hill weaved several times in front of Schumacher down the straight at Canada last year and was unpenalized (one of the most dangerous pieces of driving I've ever seen). Dave Ewing

The thing about Spa is that some drivers after spinning at, say Masta kink, start regaining speed and then see a faster car in their mirrors. What they do is because they have some momentum they think they can swerve around the track trying to prevent a pass but forget that even when they are doing 100 mph the other guy is doing 150 mph! This can lead to very dangerous situations.

On Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:32:51 -0600, David Ewing >Although Damon Hill weaved several times in front of Schumacher down the >straight at Canada last year and was unpenalized (one of the most dangerous >pieces of driving I've ever seen). I doubt Schumacher was in much position to moan since he pushed Frentzen off into the weeds at almost 200mph - a far worse transgression and only minutes later. "Sorry officer I didn't see him" doesn't work for us everyday, so I was stunned that the "best driver in the world" could come away with an excuse like that and make it stick. Cheers! John

. Exactly so! Even the best drivers will take you out in a braking zone. A while ago when I was being lapped even more than I am now I had a well known driver here take me out when he was lapping me at the end of the long straight in Zandorvorrt. My plan was to let him through by braking early. I was running inside and he had the outside line . He must have figured that I was racing him into the corner and swung in behind me just as I started to brake to let him through. This resulted in me checking out the fencing and him continuing unharmed. I now know that that particular racing star is nervous in braking zones and is best let through by letting him have the exit line from the corner rather than the entrance line. I'd rather the overtaker got by safely than have him punt me off. Other fast guys are more confident in the braking zone and you can let them through there . I think the real idea here is situational awareness as the flight simmers say. Know the track, know the opposition, know your own limitations,cut the other guy a bit of lag slack and try to act like it is for real (otherwise why would you play a "sim"?) David Erb

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>% >The blue flags being waved in my general direction are usually a good >% >indication..... >% > >% But you get the blue flag whether you're being lapped or just being passed >for >% position. So, you STILL don't know who the pursuing car is... >Only under "practice" sessions. During the race you are only presented >a blue flag if you are being closely pursued by a car that is going to >lap you. (There are very rare occasions, due to a clock smash, where >you may be presented a bogus blue flag while racing).

Ok, I stand corrected. Nevermind... :) __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>Remember you'd also see the initials and car number of the driver who >sent the message. >Eric >> So you're gaining on me down the front straight at Monza... >approaching Curva >> Grande, you see "Pass Right" flash on screen. How do you determine >if I sent >> that, or if someone else is telling the car behind HIM to pass at >some other >> portion of the track?

And do you know EVERY driver and car number by sight? *I* don't. One lotus/eagle/whatever looks like any OTHER on the track. If I know there's only one Ferrari in the race, I know when HE'S going by... <g> Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Guys, you're talking about Monza! there isn't any problems in overtaking backmarkers, it's those Ring,Glen,Zandvoort tracks...and I think backmarker could well give room in those tracks by just moving out of the racingline in coming out of the turn. >Yes, I agree. >I think it's every driver's responsibility to know which position they're in, >and to know the time difference to the driver infront and to the driver >behind. If you're driving 5sec >infront of driver behind you, then if suddenly a car shows up your gearbox and

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>you're shown a blue flag, you either went wide on the green stuff and >recovered just infront of the driver to which you had 5sec gap or you are >being lapped. It's that simple. >Also, it's nice if the passed driver would pick his line and stick to it. I >died once in Monza while leading the race when I was trying to outbrake the >backmarker into Parabolica on the inside.I picked the inner line for the >corner and suddenly, about a second before the braking point the driver >infront decided to veer infront of me, thus braking on the same portion of

the >track. At first I was confused and I thought it was a warp or something, just

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>to be convinced few moments later that that wasn't warping at all :o) >There should be some sort of sim-racing school or something that would hand >out driver's licenses, something like Sim-FIA ;o) >It's nice to race in league races and NTT championship, drivers there know >what to do in most cases ... -=B-) >Not to mention the 200 heat beat in the 1st lap in those races...uff... >Cheers, >Tadej >> >If he *is* much faster, he shouldn't have a problem getting around me, >> >especially on the straights. How many times have *you* been lapped?

How

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>> >many of those times did you know for sure that you were about to be >> >lapped? >> If he is much faster it will still be a heck of a lot easier to pass >> you if you're working with him to make it happen. Chances are if you >> force someone to fight for the pass they'll be agitated to get by and >> on with the race, not to mention thinking (rightly) that you should >> let them by. More than likely you'll both end up in the rails and >> losing a barrowload more time. >> As for knowing if I'm getting lapped, only once or twice and I soon >> realised. When you see the guy behind you showing on the pit board as >> a lap down then the leader is coming up on you. There are many ways to >> know, and in any case your comment wasn't related to recognising if >> the leader was behind you or not, rather to do with how to react once >> you've ascertained that it IS him. >> >Like I said, I'm not as interested in absolute realism as I am in

making >> >the sim a better online experience. Maybe if they made the blue flag >> >wave if you're about to be lapped, and be still if there's simply a car >> >following closely. Even that would be better than guessing all the time.

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>> Again I agree, but each person view of what is important differs and >> in this case Papy's is the definitive one. I'd prefer an "online >> racing simulator" which tweaks absolute realism somewhat to make life >> easier. >> Cheers! >> John

I saw Mark Gene run wide in today's Interlagos GP to let Hakinnen or Schumacher (I forget which) take the apex and go through and he was in close competition with another backmarker. Cheers, Paul

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> On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 23:46:36 +0100, Paul Jones > >having to switch lines to pass you. On a straight, you should pull off line at > >full tilt and, provided that they have not done the same, ease off the throttle > >to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you can > >run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line hugging > >the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose any > >speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe > >race the lapper as has often happened to me. > Hmmm, you have to let someone pass, you don't have to***up your > own race at the same time. > I will let someone lap me when it is mutually convenient to do so, I > certainly won't back way off, swing offline or take a slower line > around a corner unless it causes me no damage to do so. Slightly > backing out of the throttle on a straight will be enough to let > someone slingshot past, and every circuit has several positions where > this is possible. > >If everyone followed this etiquette then the lapper would never deviate from > >his/her line and the only person to lose time would be the lappee - which is how > >it should be. > No, that's not how it should be. I'm racing too, and while the leader > might be a country mile ahead of second I could be involved in an > "every second counts" struggle to catch the guy in front. No "rules" > are necessary if both people use common-sense and have their wits > about them. If another car is close behind the leader chances are he's > in a fight - let him through quick and let the other guy through at > the same time (if close enough) or very soon afterwards. If there's > no-one behind then hold your line and help him pass somewhere > appropriate where you both lose minimal time - suddenly backing off, > swinging offline or whatever will take both of you out and is not to > be recommended. > Cheers! > John

And if you're enough of a lunatic, you draft pass him back into your spot ;o))) Tadej

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> Then he pulls out, and it's done. If you time it right, you can even get > in his tow to gain that time back! :-) > See it takes little time after all! :-) > --dave > > I have to disagree here again :o) > > Do you really expect the driver infront of you, exiting the corner slower then he used to > > do ? > > Plus, if you slow down before the straight, you loose a lot more time comparing to lapper > > out-brake > > you. > > It's better to lift slightly on the straight or lifting 1sec before the braking zone. > > I think this is the least amount of danger for both drivers. > > Just my $0.02, > > Tadej > > > Trips, > > > The suggestion about out-accelerating is a GREAT one... very easily done > > > and with minimal time loss, like you say. > > > --Dave > > > > While I agree with you in that a "lappee" should NEVER try to race the overtaking > > > > driver, I disagree about moving over for the faster car. > > > > I'd much rather pass a car that stays to the racing line than one that unexpectedly > > > > decides to "do me a favor" and pulls off line and slows... There's no way humanly > > > > possible to predict just when someone will move over, I'd much rather they hold to > > > > their line and let ME decide when to go around. > > > > By the same token, when I'm being lapped, I'll hold to the line, and when the > > > > overtaker gets close I'll let him out accelerate me out of a corner. I lose minimal > > > > time that way, and the overtaker gets a clean pass on a straight. > > > > Trips > > > > > I disagree here. I see letting a lapper through as soon as possible as a prime > > > > > directive. It's largely because so many drivers don't get out of the way that > > > > > the lappers are now used to pulling off line to overtake. It is also why so many > > > > > accidents happen when the lappee actually does the right thing and moves aside. > > > > > You usually get the blue well before they are right on top of your gear box > > > > > which gives you time to get out of their way before you they are committed to > > > > > having to switch lines to pass you. On a straight, you should pull off line at > > > > > full tilt and, provided that they have not done the same, ease off the throttle > > > > > to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you can > > > > > run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line hugging > > > > > the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose any > > > > > speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe > > > > > race the lapper as has often happened to me. > > > > > If everyone followed this etiquette then the lapper would never deviate from > > > > > his/her line and the only person to lose time would be the lappee - which is how > > > > > it should be. There would also be fewer accidents since both parties would know > > > > > the form. > > > > > It is often the case that, through accidents and the like, that the lapper is > > > > > only a little bit faster than the lappee and if lappees continue to drive their > > > > > own sweet race, then the lapper can be held up for a long time or else cause an > > > > > accident by attempting a crazy manoeuvre born out of frustration. It's only a > > > > > pity that GPL doesn't give blue flag infringements a stop/go penalty for > > > > > ignoring 4 blues as happens in modern Formula 1. > > > > > I say all this from a the point of view of someone who is lapped more often than > > > > > he is lapped. However it is so frustrating when people carry on through blue > > > > > flags just as if it were a member of the crowd waving support. > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Paul > > > -- > > > Dave Schwabe > > > The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site > > > http://users.wi.net/~schwabe > -- > Dave Schwabe > The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site > http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Yeah, those are the real idiots. I've just seen it happen this weekend in a RC 1:8 race I was in. A lappee first blocked the raceleader for two laps and when the leader finally got by, the lappee started to race him and almost punted him off. And yes, also in RC racing a lappee must make way. If you get lapped, back off a bit. -- Ren van Lobberegt, The Netherlands. Personal site : http://www.toptown.com/INNERCIRCLE/1846/ AMCA web master : http://www.amcaracing.nl/